WW XXXV ( night phase ends friday 9:00 AM,) SAW!!!!

[Lorena]

Originally Posted by Grammaticus

Dola,

DC, lonestargirl is going to be mad at you.

She was right in going with Swaggs, we should have gone with it. So far, I'm the big fat 0, I'll get it right someday.

BTW, my strategy when voting for you was actually half right, it's a shame we can't use something like that to help us... I mean it's just there. Just like several people look and ask for opinions, "Neuqua, you're in right now, what do you think?"

[saldana]

lathum and i had this discussion last night after i died, and he wanted me to put it out there for other peoples discussion:

i said i thought the forced to vote and then getting killed as a villager was a broken mechanic for the following reasons: (i would have this opinion if it had been anyone else, not just because it happened to me)

we had to vote, and as everyone has had to deal with at points in time, real life can dictate when that has to happen...as thing looked for me before work on thursday, the only opportunity i had to vote was 7am.

the penalty for not voting was being the person to try the key

so no matter what happened yesterday, there was no way i wasnt going to be the person that tried the key...if i voted when i had the opportunity, there was no way i wasnt going to be first....if i didnt vote, i was treated as if i were first

therefore, there was absolutely no way i wasnt dead yesterday. the reason i consider this a broken mechanic is because the ruleset dictated the outcome, not the players. i realize there have been other games where the ruleset decided players fates...i used the brothers/lovers role myself in star wars, but the outcome there was determined by in game actions, not forced by real life actions.

the other reason i considered it broken was because the risk of voting first did not equal the reward....being immune for 1 day versus dying and being out of the game...i dont see that as a balance. in my opinion, if the 3rd key resulted in a player dying, then the first 2 keys should have let them out as a victory (a mechanic that barkeep used in the treasure hunter game where one pirate escaped as a minor victory)

finally, i considered it broken because there was no risk to the assistants...they knew who had the 3rd key, so there was no way they would ever be the first vote on that person, but you could be sure they would both pile on that bandwagon to make sure they got a free kill during the day...as soon as i voted cronin, gram and swaggs were going to make sure he got lynched, but they themselves were never in danger...so basically the whole 3rd key was predestined to kill a villager, but there was no mechanic in place to counter balance it on for the villagers....the bodyguard even had a 30% chance of getting killed if he made a successful block

like i said, lathum and i talked about this last night, and he asked me to bring this up for other people to comment on, so dont worry about hurting his feelings or anything...my point was basically that the whole 3rd key mechanic was heavily weighted towards the wolves winning, and in a game where there was a 1 to 5 ratio to begin with, i thought it pretty much ensured a wolf win.

[Lorena]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

Sorry, I didn't mean it like that. I just thought it was funny that you switched over to LSG after I voted for Blade, but after looking at the time stamp, you probably were typing it up and didn't see my vote.

I hope you don't take it personally or get frustrated. You have been fun to play with.

That's exactly what happened, when I saw your vote on blade I thought aww shit, let me get back with blade. But by then, I checked my vote counts and realized what had happened.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by saldana

lathum and i had this discussion last night after i died, and he wanted me to put it out there for other peoples discussion:

i said i thought the forced to vote and then getting killed as a villager was a broken mechanic for the following reasons: (i would have this opinion if it had been anyone else, not just because it happened to me)

we had to vote, and as everyone has had to deal with at points in time, real life can dictate when that has to happen...as thing looked for me before work on thursday, the only opportunity i had to vote was 7am.

the penalty for not voting was being the person to try the key

so no matter what happened yesterday, there was no way i wasnt going to be the person that tried the key...if i voted when i had the opportunity, there was no way i wasnt going to be first....if i didnt vote, i was treated as if i were first

therefore, there was absolutely no way i wasnt dead yesterday. the reason i consider this a broken mechanic is because the ruleset dictated the outcome, not the players. i realize there have been other games where the ruleset decided players fates...i used the brothers/lovers role myself in star wars, but the outcome there was determined by in game actions, not forced by real life actions.

the other reason i considered it broken was because the risk of voting first did not equal the reward....being immune for 1 day versus dying and being out of the game...i dont see that as a balance. in my opinion, if the 3rd key resulted in a player dying, then the first 2 keys should have let them out as a victory (a mechanic that barkeep used in the treasure hunter game where one pirate escaped as a minor victory)

finally, i considered it broken because there was no risk to the assistants...they knew who had the 3rd key, so there was no way they would ever be the first vote on that person, but you could be sure they would both pile on that bandwagon to make sure they got a free kill during the day...as soon as i voted cronin, gram and swaggs were going to make sure he got lynched, but they themselves were never in danger...so basically the whole 3rd key was predestined to kill a villager, but there was no mechanic in place to counter balance it on for the villagers....the bodyguard even had a 30% chance of getting killed if he made a successful block

like i said, lathum and i talked about this last night, and he asked me to bring this up for other people to comment on, so dont worry about hurting his feelings or anything...my point was basically that the whole 3rd key mechanic was heavily weighted towards the wolves winning, and in a game where there was a 1 to 5 ratio to begin with, i thought it pretty much ensured a wolf win.

I see your point. Perhaps if the assistants didn't know which villager had the key, but the villager did? That would have made for some mayhem. "Don't lynch me, I have the bad key!" "No, I have the bad key! Don't lynch ME!"

[Lathum]

i have to give gramm and swaggs chedit for doing their own night kill write ups

[Grammaticus]

Originally Posted by Dodgerchick

She was right in going with Swaggs, we should have gone with it. So far, I'm the big fat 0, I'll get it right someday.

BTW, my strategy when voting for you was actually half right, it's a shame we can't use something like that to help us... I mean it's just there. Just like several people look and ask for opinions, "Neuqua, you're in right now, what do you think?"

Yeah, LSG did a good job of identifying swaggs as a good option.

I thought you did really good and oozed of being a good guy throughout the whole game. You and st.cronin are the only ones that put out vote analysis or at least are the only ones that I recall. Blade was the only other player to keep vocalizing a trust list.

Honestly, I know you will feel like the online thing is good stuff as I was a wolf. But remember Saldana was not and your theory was based on two people being on at the same time. Swaggs was not there. You mentioned GE in the last game too. Well both Saldana and GE are extremely active players. They will be there good or bad. I also don't think it is good to discourage people from being on for a vote, so they don't look bad. It discourages participation in the game and that is not fun for anyone. Just think if you had LSG and Neuqua in the thread, you may have gotten a switch.

I think if somebody did an analysis on who was in the thread or not at lynch, You would find the same people in regardless of role. I've even heard players say they stayed away from the thread to look less interested and more like a villager. Anyway, the more people there, the more participation, the more fun.

In fact I saw Antmeister in while you were on in one game at the lynch. Does that mean you had a special role, so he showed up to look? Probably not, but what if somebody used that to try and lynch you. I think I am just rambling on at this point

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Grammaticus

Yeah, LSG did a good job of identifying swaggs as a good option.

I thought you did really good and oozed of being a good guy throughout the whole game. You and st.cronin are the only ones that put out vote analysis or at least are the only ones that I recall. Blade was the only other player to keep vocalizing a trust list.

Honestly, I know you will feel like the online thing is good stuff as I was a wolf. But remember Saldana was not and your theory was based on two people being on at the same time. Swaggs was not there. You mentioned GE in the last game too. Well both Saldana and GE are extremely active players. They will be there good or bad. I also don't think it is good to discourage people from being on for a vote, so they don't look bad. It discourages participation in the game and that is not fun for anyone. Just think if you had LSG and Neuqua in the thread, you may have gotten a switch.

I think if somebody did an analysis on who was in the thread or not at lynch, You would find the same people in regardless of role. I've even heard players say they stayed away from the thread to look less interested and more like a villager. Anyway, the more people there, the more participation, the more fun.

In fact I saw Antmeister in while you were on in one game at the lynch. Does that mean you had a special role, so he showed up to look? Probably not, but what if somebody used that to try and lynch you. I think I am just rambling on at this point

For whatever its worth, I always try to be around at the deadline regardless of my role. I like being a part of whatever goes down at the deadline, and being able to respond if need be for my team (whatever team Im on). Same thing for morning deadlines too.. in most games I play, its very rare Im not around at morning/night deadlines unless RL gets in the way

[Tyrith]

Another reason why I did my stupid crap on Day 1: If saldana doesn't get 2-for-1ed me living gets the good guys Day 5.

[Grammaticus]

Originally Posted by saldana

lathum and i had this discussion last night after i died, and he wanted me to put it out there for other peoples discussion:

i said i thought the forced to vote and then getting killed as a villager was a broken mechanic for the following reasons: (i would have this opinion if it had been anyone else, not just because it happened to me)

we had to vote, and as everyone has had to deal with at points in time, real life can dictate when that has to happen...as thing looked for me before work on thursday, the only opportunity i had to vote was 7am.

the penalty for not voting was being the person to try the key

so no matter what happened yesterday, there was no way i wasnt going to be the person that tried the key...if i voted when i had the opportunity, there was no way i wasnt going to be first....if i didnt vote, i was treated as if i were first

therefore, there was absolutely no way i wasnt dead yesterday. the reason i consider this a broken mechanic is because the ruleset dictated the outcome, not the players. i realize there have been other games where the ruleset decided players fates...i used the brothers/lovers role myself in star wars, but the outcome there was determined by in game actions, not forced by real life actions.

the other reason i considered it broken was because the risk of voting first did not equal the reward....being immune for 1 day versus dying and being out of the game...i dont see that as a balance. in my opinion, if the 3rd key resulted in a player dying, then the first 2 keys should have let them out as a victory (a mechanic that barkeep used in the treasure hunter game where one pirate escaped as a minor victory)

finally, i considered it broken because there was no risk to the assistants...they knew who had the 3rd key, so there was no way they would ever be the first vote on that person, but you could be sure they would both pile on that bandwagon to make sure they got a free kill during the day...as soon as i voted cronin, gram and swaggs were going to make sure he got lynched, but they themselves were never in danger...so basically the whole 3rd key was predestined to kill a villager, but there was no mechanic in place to counter balance it on for the villagers....the bodyguard even had a 30% chance of getting killed if he made a successful block

like i said, lathum and i talked about this last night, and he asked me to bring this up for other people to comment on, so dont worry about hurting his feelings or anything...my point was basically that the whole 3rd key mechanic was heavily weighted towards the wolves winning, and in a game where there was a 1 to 5 ratio to begin with, i thought it pretty much ensured a wolf win.

When we got roles and I was looking at the them. I told Swaggs that I thought the setup favored the villagers a lot. In a 12 person game, balanced to me is 3 wolves a seer and a bodyguard.

The wolves had
1. Only two in number compared to three specialty villager roles
2. A key trap that may require only 2 wolves to compromise themselves in manuvering

The good guys had
1. A seer, a bodyguard and a fast talker so 3 roles to 2 wolves.
2. The bodyguard had a 30% chance of identifying the attack wolf (not getting killed) on a successful block and no risk of being killed themselves. The seer did have a 25% chance of getting identified if he hit a wolf. Those two roughly balance each other out.
3. The fast talker was the element to balance the key trap.

Saldana, the day you hit the trap was not the first day that you cast a first vote. Because you cast the first vote, we encouraged st.cronin as a lynch candidate. After the vote was over, I went down to watch TV and it hit me. Oh crap Saldana is the fast talker, I hope he doesn’t pick me or swags to open the door. I remembered you asking Lathum about what would happen and stating “that ensures I’ll never cast the first vote”. Then you proceeded to cast first votes. You came home before the lynch and wrote casually, I already voted gotta go and eat dinner with my parents. If you wanted to you could have swapped votes or unvoted and re-voted. Of course all that would draw suspicion and is not good at all. But anyway I thought at that point you were the fast talker and we just got burned. It could have played that way. Getting the fast talker in play was the key to ah, the key.

I don’t think the force vote or you have to open the door is bad or broken. I think if we played this rule set 10 times, the villagers would win more often than not. I say add a wolf to the mix. Heck at one point I thought maybe st.cronin knew who the wolves were and counted as a villager but won with the wolves. Go figure.

[LoneStarGirl]

Oh you jackasses. I have been right on EVERY game I have played but NOBODY believes me. I think its because I am woman, I dont know. You bastards. I should have stuck with my gut going with swaggs but I knew nobody would follow me. Oh this sucks. Damn you gramm.

[LoneStarGirl]

Dodgerchick, please remind me to never play a game with you again. How could you vote for me? You let these knuckleheads manipulate your thinking... Bastards

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by LoneStarGirl

Oh you jackasses. I have been right on EVERY game I have played but NOBODY believes me. I think its because I am woman, I dont know. You bastards. I should have stuck with my gut going with swaggs but I knew nobody would follow me. Oh this sucks. Damn you gramm.

It's not enough to be right. That's only half the game - the other half is convincing the village that you are, in fact, right. That's the really hard part.

[Lorena]

Originally Posted by LoneStarGirl

Dodgerchick, please remind me to never play a game with you again. How could you vote for me? You let these knuckleheads manipulate your thinking... Bastards

Gee... thanks man. I was freaking clueless, I understand your frustration because I was freaking pissed. It just seemed that you had Gramm's back the whole time and I was a little skeptical. When you made your "random" vote for Blade one day 1 and then said you knew from day one that he was bad and voted for him, that raised some flags with me.

I suspected Swaggs at one point if you remember my post where I mentioned Swaggs voting record.

I think throughout the whole game, the only people I didn't suspect were Sndvls (yeah, I know I voted for him on day 1 but it was a crapshoot), st.cronin, and neuqua... everyone else wreaked wolf to me.

We lost because blade, our bodyguard was killed with the majority of the votes, I wasn't the only one that got manipulated.

[Lorena]

let me add tyrith to that list, I didn't suspect him either.

[Alan T]

You all should watch Cry Wolf. Its a movie about some kids who play werewolf

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by Alan T

You all should watch Cry Wolf. Its a movie about some kids who play werewolf

with Jon Bon Jovi!

[Lorena]

That's the thing about WW, if you unknowingly align yourself with a wolf, people will tend to think of you as a wolf too. If blade had been a wolf, people would have thought I was a wolf as well.

[Grammaticus]

Originally Posted by LoneStarGirl

Oh you jackasses. I have been right on EVERY game I have played but NOBODY believes me. I think its because I am woman, I dont know. You bastards. I should have stuck with my gut going with swaggs but I knew nobody would follow me. Oh this sucks. Damn you gramm.

Sorry, I feel aweful about it. For what it's worth, I think both you and DC are earning a lot of respect capital.

[path12]

Originally Posted by Alan T

For whatever its worth, I always try to be around at the deadline regardless of my role. I like being a part of whatever goes down at the deadline, and being able to respond if need be for my team (whatever team Im on). Same thing for morning deadlines too.. in most games I play, its very rare Im not around at morning/night deadlines unless RL gets in the way

I wish I could be around more at deadlines than I am, but we've kind of settled into 9PM Eastern, which is a tough spot for those of us out west who commute. Though I must admit there have been times where I've left the office early to be sure and be home for the last 30 minutes....

[Glengoyne]

That last day was a great read. I was thinking that were I playing I'd take the approach that "There is NO fucking way that I'm going to let Blade fool me". I was siding with Gram much of the way. It was only in the end when Blade started talking about going for a tie, that I went back and reanalyzed the reveal. Only then I started to lean Blade's way.

When the LSG voting strategy came up, I thought "Oh Fuck. THEY'RE BOTH WOLVES!!!"

I think this goes to the KISS principle. It was very likely that Blade's reveal was the true due to the sequence of events. I think It was only that "but it's Blade" factor that gave Gram and Swaggs the edge here.

[LoneStarGirl]

I think my past feelings about blade over rulled everything here. If i would ahve had more time i would have stuck with swaggs, a guy i knew was a wolf, and pushed for him more and tried to convince everybody.

[hoopsguy]

In regards to the key mechanic, I think having a mechanism that punishes not voting is a good idea. Lack of participation kills in games and any in-game prod to accelerate action/discussion is good for me.

I do agree with the penalty for first vote being harsh when the key turns out to be a death sentence. However, was it pre-determined that the key Saldana was forced to use was going to kill him? My belief is that there was a 67% chance of not going that way. Still, there is no reward for that 2/3 above catching an assistant, which is a separate event.

I like the option to have some kind of a minor victory here so that you can have a risk/reward metric. But in a 12 person game, that is challenging as well - losing a villager who exits the game with a minor victory is effectively the same result for the village as losing him to death. The only difference is for the player in question - they feel better about being out of the game. Now if it is one of the 20 man games, the loss of one player (on either side, I think the metric works better if either team can exercise it) is not as significant.

Anyways, I can understand why Saldana was frustrated with how this one went down. But dying early in WW seems to be his destiny, so is anyone really surprised that the 'broken mechanic' found him?

[saldana]

Originally Posted by LoneStarGirl

Oh you jackasses. I have been right on EVERY game I have played but NOBODY believes me. I think its because I am woman, I dont know. You bastards. I should have stuck with my gut going with swaggs but I knew nobody would follow me. Oh this sucks. Damn you gramm.

uhhhhhh.....no you werent......i havent been bad once, and you keep coming after me.

[saldana]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Anyways, I can understand why Saldana was frustrated with how this one went down. But dying early in WW seems to be his destiny, so is anyone really surprised that the 'broken mechanic' found him?

keep it up....i have a very special role planned for you in my next game

[saldana]

dola, i should say a very special death hoops. your life will be rather boring........and short.

[hoopsguy]

Bah, you are not even on the list of next ten games - by the time it rolls around someone else will have mocked you more recently.

Now Chubby, there is a guy I respect and admire. What a guy, that Chubby ...

[saldana]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Bah, you are not even on the list of next ten games - by the time it rolls around someone else will have mocked you more recently.

Now Chubby, there is a guy I respect and admire. What a guy, that Chubby ...

it takes a while to masterfully craft the story and prepare the complexities and intricacies of my themes....you cant hurry perfection.


and you have reached an all time low if you are sucking up to chubby.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by saldana

it takes a while to masterfully craft the story and prepare the complexities and intricacies of my themes....you cant hurry perfection.


and you have reached an all time low if you are sucking up to chubby.

Yeah hoops.. way to pile on Saldana there. Poor guy never gets a break! You should be ashamed!

[LoneStarGirl]

Originally Posted by saldana

uhhhhhh.....no you werent......i havent been bad once, and you keep coming after me.

I think i've played, what, one game with you? Were you even in this game??

[Lorena]

Originally Posted by Alan T

You all should watch Cry Wolf. Its a movie about some kids who play werewolf

I checked IMDB and now I'm interested... a plus that it's a horror movie too.

[SnDvls]

so sitting here on the out side knowing that I had the 2 wolves pegged from day one, but got killed sucked.

I spyed on Gram on night one as I came back to my room Swaggs killed me and he was going to be my night 2 view.

we would have won really quick, but the wolves liked what I had to say on day 1 that most people passed over too quickly and boom! different game.

great game Lathum.