The Official 2016-17 NBA Regular Season Thread

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Yikes, the Nets give up next year's pick, too? I thought this was it. lol... I guess Boston haven't exactly knocked any of the picks out of the park up until this point, but still, has to be the leader in the "worst trade of all time" conversation?

Yeah it's def Stepien-worthy. Lol. Just realized one of his picks turned into James Worthy

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

If I'm Boston I take Fultz unless a really good offer comes along... but I think given they are in a position to win titles with another key piece in place, they should at least be open to dealing the pick for a franchise-type talent.

+1, but what franchise-type talent's are available? I don't think Butler is quite good enough, and the Paul George to LA rumors are too much for me to take the chance on him. Unless KAT or Anthony Davis or Giannis magically show up on the market I'd rather take Fultz & try to sign Gordon Hayward.

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Celtics should try to trade the #1 right? Ball or Fultz arent really something they need right now.

Like the Lakers werent going to get the #2 so they can take Ball.

Originally Posted by JPhillips

There has to be a Phi/Bos trade that could benefit both teams. Phi desperately needs a PG and Bos decidedly does not need a PG. Would Saric and the #3 be enough?

Dumb narrative that'll get a ton of play in the next month+. You don't pass up on a potential franchise player like Fultz because of Marcus Smart, Terry Rozier, or even 28 year old Isaiah Thomas. (And at 3 Philly should still have their pick of De'Aaron Fox, Dennis Smith Jr or - if they think Ben Simmons is the PG on O - Josh Jackson/Jayson Tatum.)

Boston will have to trade 2/4 of IT, AB, Smart & Rozier if they pick Fultz, but with IT/AB/Smart all due big raises next summer we already were going to likely move on from 1 of them. Even just trading one this offseason it'd be very easy to put Fultz in a Jaylen Brown-type role with ~1500 minutes between the regular season & playoffs that won't harm his long-term development at all. But it's real easy to find 3 guards 30+ minutes, especially when Smart is probably better off as a 3, and can certainly defend most 3's.

Between the fact he can defend 3's & the age (just turned 23), I'd definitely want to keep Marcus & trade Bradley. That leaves us at our current level, let's us chase a Hayward/Butler/Griffin (though I think Griffin would be a bad fit next to Horford)/maybe Ibaka on a short term deal? while giving us a potential long term core of Fultz (almost 19), Brown (20), Smart (barely 23)... oh, and another Nets pick next year, + that Memphis pick that's lightly protected in 2019/20/21.

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I'd trade Butler for #1 or #2. Not sure either team does that though.

I wouldn't, but I also don't think the Bulls front office would either based on the rumored demands at last year's draft & the deadline.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Yikes, the Nets give up next year's pick, too? I thought this was it. lol... I guess Boston haven't exactly knocked any of the picks out of the park up until this point, but still, has to be the leader in the "worst trade of all time" conversation?

I really like Jaylen Brown (and sure James Young sucks, but that was always the worst of the 4 picks & it's not like the Celtics have passed up any obvious picks yet), but it's not even the worst trade involving a top 3 pick in this draft. Sacramento traded swap rights this year (sure, not much, just moving from 3 to 5), but also added in an unprotected 2019 1st round pick to clear cap space to sign Rajon Rondo, when they could've just used the stretch provision but allegedly didn't know what it was.

[miami_fan]

Looks like I will be catching up on some of the sleep that I missed out on watching the earlier rounds and will be well rested for the Finals.

[RedKingGold]

The Sixers should not overthink this. They need shooters around Simmons and Monk is easily the best shooter available at #3. He would also be a good secondary ball handler and a nice fit. Just take him at #3 and be done with it.

[Groundhog]

I like Jaylen Brown too, but if he was in this draft I think he might crack the top 10 picks if he's lucky. Might end up a tremendous player still, but I'd say he's a longshot to be more than a solid starter.

I'll admit that it's partly for non-basketball reasons, but I'd take Fox over even Ball if I wanted a PG and couldn't get Fultz. He's not as good a shooter as Ball right now, but he can work on that - his shot isn't broken.

[stevew]

Glad we were able to put the game away kinda early so Boston's thug squad couldn't injure anyone in garbage time.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

I struggle to think of Butler as a top 10 guy because I'm not convinced he can be the best player on a contender. I think he's a really good defender who works best as a 2nd option on offense. Counting quickly in my head I could think of maybe 13-15 guys I'd take over him, but picks 10 through 15 would largely depend on who else I had. Though Celtics would probably be one of the best fits for him in the entire league.

Butler had one of the worst supporting casts in the NBA and still got them into the playoffs. He could be the #1 on a contender but it'd have to have a great supporting cast. But I think that's the case with anyone in that 8-12th best player in the league range. Lebron, Durant, and maybe Curry are the only players I think can make a mediocre team a contender on their own.

I think the other good thing about Butler is he has a really nice contract. A team like the Celtics could trade for him and with a little work have room for a max contract like Hayward. Then they're rolling with a lineup of IT, Butler, Hayward, PF (maybe Crowder when they go small), and Horford.

[MrBug708]

Watch the Celtics package the #1 for the Knicks 1st, another first, and Melo. Then the Knicks draft Ball.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Butler had one of the worst supporting casts in the NBA and still got them into the playoffs. He could be the #1 on a contender but it'd have to have a great supporting cast. But I think that's the case with anyone in that 8-12th best player in the league range. Lebron, Durant, and maybe Curry are the only players I think can make a mediocre team a contender on their own.

I don't think even Curry and maybe not even Durant even belong in that group. Just Lebron.

Curry has never played without KT and Draymond (and now KD). KD has either played with those guys or with Westbrook.

I personally think, outside of LeBron, only Harden, Westbrook, The Brow and KAT have a chance to have that kind of impact, where they can literally put a team into contender status by being there. You could argue Harden did that this season--Houston is nothing without him.

[stevew]

Paul George to the Lakers fir some sort of package makes sense. Yes I know they could outright sign him in a year, but they also have no incentive to suck next season. Maybe Russell and x for him, or Ingram and Clarkson and the #2 pick? Somewhere there's a deal I'd imagine. I have no idea how Lakers fans rate their guys, but the Pacers should be able to get a couple nice pieces for him.

[murrayyyyy]

Which was worse, game one or what the Celtics are doing now?

[Groundhog]

#fultz

[BishopMVP]

I knew the fanbase was willing to concede the series & look to the future after getting the #1 pick, didn't realize it extended to the players too... At least these games are in Cleveland & we'll have a chance to keep it close at home! (Wait...)

[SirFozzie]

embarassing

[Galaril]

Yeah I seriously think they need to break up some of this band they lack heart and will never get to the likes of the Clevelands, GSW or even Spurs. They got as far as they could have in a weak East minus Cleveland. I prefe they use this years #1 and next years Brooklyn pick probably also a high round and along withJaylen Brown start a mini rebuilding.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Galaril

Yeah I seriously think they need to break up some of this band they lack heart and will never get to the likes of the Clevelands, GSW or even Spurs. They got as far as they could have in a weak East minus Cleveland. I prefe they use this years #1 and next years Brooklyn pick probably also a high round and along withJaylen Brown start a mini rebuilding.

The real problem, IMO, isn't that this group can't go any further. It's that the Celtics went to war with this group in the first place. Ainge has been "playing" at being GM and I think he's viewing all these acquisitions of draft picks like he has the highest "GM score" in the NBA game he's playing. IMO, he has forgotten that the goal is to win titles, not accumulate assets. He should have traded this #1 and one of the guards he is going to lose next year for a proven player, like Butler or Boogie or Blake. Instead, he's hoarding these picks and using them on either European assets who are unlikely to provide any value or he is drafting questionable players, like Young, Rozier, Smart, Olynyk (Game 7 of EC semis notwithstanding), Sullinger, etc. And it turns out he's not particularly great at drafting undervalued players nor recognizing what he needs.

He has a 28 year old star PG, and a well paid 31 year old C and a bunch of complementary pieces. By the time Brown, Fultz and whoever they get next year are ready to be contenders (let's say 3-4 years if the Celtics are lucky), Thomas will be that step slower that really makes his height a detriment and prob massively overpaid, while Horford will be either gone and/or old.

Boston needs 2017 PLAYERS. Not 2021 PLAYERS. And they have the wherewithal to go get them, if Ainge gets off his hoarding ass and makes a trade or two.

[Groundhog]

I didn't even realise that LeBron set career highs for rebounds and assists this season. Yet not in the top 3 MVP voting, obviously.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

The real problem, IMO, isn't that this group can't go any further. It's that the Celtics went to war with this group in the first place. Ainge has been "playing" at being GM and I think he's viewing all these acquisitions of draft picks like he has the highest "GM score" in the NBA game he's playing. IMO, he has forgotten that the goal is to win titles, not accumulate assets. He should have traded this #1 and one of the guards he is going to lose next year for a proven player, like Butler or Boogie or Blake. Instead, he's hoarding these picks and using them on either European assets who are unlikely to provide any value or he is drafting questionable players, like Young, Rozier, Smart, Olynyk (Game 7 of EC semis notwithstanding), Sullinger, etc. And it turns out he's not particularly great at drafting undervalued players nor recognizing what he needs.

He has a 28 year old star PG, and a well paid 31 year old C and a bunch of complementary pieces. By the time Brown, Fultz and whoever they get next year are ready to be contenders (let's say 3-4 years if the Celtics are lucky), Thomas will be that step slower that really makes his height a detriment and prob massively overpaid, while Horford will be either gone and/or old.

Boston needs 2017 PLAYERS. Not 2021 PLAYERS. And they have the wherewithal to go get them, if Ainge gets off his hoarding ass and makes a trade or two.

+1, Its not like these top 5 overall picks are a sure thing anyway. Lebron James, Kevin Durant or Anthony Davis types arent in every draft.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

and a well paid 31 year old C

You mean PF that gets stuck at C.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

I didn't even realise that LeBron set career highs for rebounds and assists this season. Yet not in the top 3 MVP voting, obviously.

Lebron should be a 10+ time MVP but the voters dont like the obvious choice. Coming back to Cleveland and winning a championship made his career GOAT discussion.

[mckerney]

VIDEO: Enes Kanter says he's been detained in Romanian airport | NewsOK.com

Enes Kanter has been detained at an airport in Romania after Turkey asked them to seize his passport. He is likely to be deported to Turkey where Erdoğan could have him arrested for supporting Gülen.

[stevew]

Can Enes even defend his political views?

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

The real problem, IMO, isn't that this group can't go any further. It's that the Celtics went to war with this group in the first place. Ainge has been "playing" at being GM and I think he's viewing all these acquisitions of draft picks like he has the highest "GM score" in the NBA game he's playing. IMO, he has forgotten that the goal is to win titles, not accumulate assets. He should have traded this #1 and one of the guards he is going to lose next year for a proven player, like Butler or Boogie or Blake. Instead, he's hoarding these picks and using them on either European assets who are unlikely to provide any value or he is drafting questionable players, like Young, Rozier, Smart, Olynyk (Game 7 of EC semis notwithstanding), Sullinger, etc. And it turns out he's not particularly great at drafting undervalued players nor recognizing what he needs.

He has a 28 year old star PG, and a well paid 31 year old C and a bunch of complementary pieces. By the time Brown, Fultz and whoever they get next year are ready to be contenders (let's say 3-4 years if the Celtics are lucky), Thomas will be that step slower that really makes his height a detriment and prob massively overpaid, while Horford will be either gone and/or old.

Boston needs 2017 PLAYERS. Not 2021 PLAYERS. And they have the wherewithal to go get them, if Ainge gets off his hoarding ass and makes a trade or two.

Strong disagree. The goal is to win A title, not the 2017 title. If we traded for Jimmy Butler, we would've lost to LeBron or GS. (Especially since GarPax were demanding current assets like Jae and/or AB instead of just draft picks.) Blake Griffin would've been a bad fit next to Horford & the price to get him if he was even available (again, probably 2 of Jae, AB, Smart, maybe Jaylen) would've killed our wing depth, and we would've lost to LeBron or GS. If we traded 1st round picks or young players like Rozier for a Serge Ibaka or PJ Tucker, we would've lost to LeBron or GS & been forced to decide if we wanted to overpay them for their declining years. I don't honestly know how Boogie would've changed things, and I would've taken a chance at that price, but I think that was mostly Vivek falling in love with Buddy Hield & we don't have any shooter like that.

Now with a little massaging we have the cap space to go after Blake Griffin without giving up assets (or, more accurately, our #1 target Gordon Hayward), and a potential 22 & under core of Fultz, Jaylen, Smart, Rozier & Ante Zizic (a "European asset" who I'm quite certain will provide value as soon as next year, and think would go top 10 even in this draft if available - he's a better prospect and more NBA ready than Zach Collins.) It's also a weird list to harangue Ainge fof his drafting - other than Smart who was 6th overall those were all picks in the mid-teens & 20's where getting a rotation player is usually considered a win.

We probably need to trade one guard (I would prefer Bradley), but have one year to see just how good Fultz looks & whether it's worth paying Isaiah a lot and going deep into the luxury tax or letting him go. As much as I love the guy, I'm not really sure what his market is - is a team like the Nets or Magic going to offer him a full 4 year max? Marcus Smart might actually command more interest on the open market. But that potentially gives you a team in 2 years with an aging but still above-average Horford in the post with Zizic hopefully developing into a real starter who provides the rebounding and toughness we desperately need, 2 very good wings in a Hayward (or if he doesn't sign I suppose we could always go back to trying to trade for Butler/PG13) and Jaylen Brown, a PG in Fultz who's hopefully developing into a star, defensive guards like Smart & Rozier around him, possibly IT as the 6th man type, possibly whatever next year's Nets pick turns into, etc. Hopefully as LeBron is finally declining, and possibly as KD has gotten a title or two in GS & gone elsewhere.

There was no trade on the table that would've greatly increased our chances of winning the 2017 title, but there were many that would've greatly decreased our chances of winning the 2021 title, and although there are minor things I wish we had done (like go after a Bogut or Larry Sanders in the buyout market, and cut Young/Zeller for them) I'm glad Ainge wasn't as eager as many non-Boston fans to make a splash that hurt our long-term prospects and our chance to actually get that mega superstar you need to win an NBA title.

[Brian Swartz]

In this case I basically agree with Bishop. I think it really comes down to how good you think Thomas is. You can build a team through trading assets that is good enough to be a lot closer to Golden State and Cleveland than they currently are -- but can you build one that's better than those teams? Unlikely. Meanwhile in 2021 he's going to be 37 and the Cavs won't be the same monster they are. Assuming typical aging processes the Warriors will just be starting to decline then. I think that's the window a lot of teams should be shooting for -- and the Celtics are in a nice position where they can be good in the interim while working towards trying to take control of the East then. That seems a smarter play to me.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

In this case I basically agree with Bishop. I think it really comes down to how good you think Thomas is. You can build a team through trading assets that is good enough to be a lot closer to Golden State and Cleveland than they currently are -- but can you build one that's better than those teams? Unlikely. Meanwhile in 2021 he's going to be 37 and the Cavs won't be the same monster they are. Assuming typical aging processes the Warriors will just be starting to decline then. I think that's the window a lot of teams should be shooting for -- and the Celtics are in a nice position where they can be good in the interim while working towards trying to take control of the East then. That seems a smarter play to me.

We can debate motivation/injuries and all of that stuff but the Celtics did have a better record over a larger sample size during the regular season. A little over a month ago some posters in this forum were discussing Cleveland not even being the Eastern Conference favorites.

As far as beating the Warriors that is a completely different beast. They are so loaded I doubt any team in NBA history would be favored over them in a 7 game series at full strength so waiting for them to fall off will take some patience.

Thomas is what he is. A gifted offensive player that doesnt have the physical abilities to play solid defense. I like the Celtics because when they are on they can win a lot of different ways. They are young and talented as is.

[stevew]

Anyone know how the holdout rules work? Given that IT has significantly outplayed his deal, and has only made about 20M for his career, he seems like a logical holdout guy. Boston has cap space. They can adjust his 17-18 salary abd tack on 2-3 more years. Maybe if all the money goes to a star like Blake, it's one thing. But holding out for fair compensation right now, or forcing a trade to a team to pay him fair compensation should surely be in his plans this off-season.

[RainMaker]

Celtics are in a good spot but it's also weird. They could theoretically get Butler and Hayward this offseason. They have a core that is on the cusp of contending. The young talent won't be able to help for a few years.

They could use those picks to get players that would help now and fill in a short window. Butler or George would be perfect fits. But they still might be short with the addition of them. But if they don't play for now they might just be a good team that never contends for the next 10 years with this young talent.

I guess it comes down to how good they think someone like Fultz can be. Do they think he's a franchise player or just a guy who will make some All-Star teams at best?

[RainMaker]

So let's say Gordon Hayward agrees to sign in Boston. Would you feel better trading the #1 pick for Butler? IT, Butler, Hayward, Crowder, and Horford is one hell of a lineup. Plus Lebron has to age at some point, right?

[miami_fan]

Isaiah is done for the rest of the playoffs.

Isaiah Thomas of Boston Celtics to miss rest of playoffs

[Atocep]

Interesting read

Wilt Chamberlain secretly dominated professional basketball at age 16 under a false identity. Scoring as much as 46 points against pros in the Eastern U.S. with a team record of 36-1. By age 17 he was averaging 40.5ppg. This is the first time I'm sharing this research: : nba

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

A little over a month ago some posters in this forum were discussing Cleveland not even being the Eastern Conference favorites.

That's very true, and I've been surprised by how well they've played in the playoffs -- it's historically unusual to struggle as much as they did and then be able to turn it up or whatever. I do think it was pretty clear though that this was because they'd fallen off, particularly defensively, from last year. They were always capable of a lot more, it was just a question of whether they'd get back to it.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Meanwhile in 2021 he's going to be 37 and the Cavs won't be the same monster they are.

Thousands of years of human history would suggest that, but he's 32 and only getting better when the lights come on.

Originally Posted by jbergey22

We can debate motivation/injuries and all of that stuff but the Celtics did have a better record over a larger sample size during the regular season. A little over a month ago some posters in this forum were discussing Cleveland not even being the Eastern Conference favorites..

Originally Posted by bishopmvp in March

I know they're still the favorite without homecourt & just destroyed us in Boston when vintage LeBron showed up for a quarter and a half, (and they still had a 10+ point lead in the 4th before blowing it,) but is Cleveland really sitting LeBron & Kyrie tonight?

When LeBron tried they were always #1.

Originally Posted by stevew

Anyone know how the holdout rules work? Given that IT has significantly outplayed his deal, and has only made about 20M for his career, he seems like a logical holdout guy. Boston has cap space. They can adjust his 17-18 salary abd tack on 2-3 more years. Maybe if all the money goes to a star like Blake, it's one thing. But holding out for fair compensation right now, or forcing a trade to a team to pay him fair compensation should surely be in his plans this off-season.

I think the NBA CBA actually prohibits reworking contracts, possibly to prevent holdouts like you're advocating for.

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Celtics are in a good spot but it's also weird. They could theoretically get Butler and Hayward this offseason. They have a core that is on the cusp of contending. The young talent won't be able to help for a few years.

They could use those picks to get players that would help now and fill in a short window. Butler or George would be perfect fits. But they still might be short with the addition of them. But if they don't play for now they might just be a good team that never contends for the next 10 years with this young talent.

I guess it comes down to how good they think someone like Fultz can be. Do they think he's a franchise player or just a guy who will make some All-Star teams at best?

Originally Posted by RainMaker

So let's say Gordon Hayward agrees to sign in Boston. Would you feel better trading the #1 pick for Butler? IT, Butler, Hayward, Crowder, and Horford is one hell of a lineup. Plus Lebron has to age at some point, right?

We're in a beautiful position where we have a full year to judge whether Markelle is worth building around before needing to decide how much or if to pay IT.

I also think your Hayward question is flipped & the real question is if us trading #1 (a.k.a. Fultz) for Butler would be the difference in getting Gordon to sign. I don't think it would matter, and I think if Hayward turns us down we're much more likely to try & trade for Butler, but YMMV.

[BishopMVP]

Btw I understand how we ignore persistent greatness in terms of the MVP vote, but I can't wait until the ballots are released and we can mock whoever didn't have LeBron 1st team.

[stevew]

How Isaiah Thomas' contract renegotiation eligibility could impact the Boston Celtics, one way or another | masslive.com

[jbergey22]

Spurs were 9 point dogs at home last night and now Boston is 16 point dogs at Cleveland tonight. Rarely, do you see them type of lopsided spreads at home or that high in the latter scenario during the regular season. Normally, Id be all over the +16 but I believe Boston has quit on the season sadly enough and dont feel comfortable even with the 16 in my back pocket.

[Groundhog]

I think Boston are worth backing tonight, there's a decent chance the Cavs don't show up.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by stevew

How Isaiah Thomas' contract renegotiation eligibility could impact the Boston Celtics, one way or another | masslive.com

Touche. The catch is that you need cap space & it sounds like neither player can renegotiate until after the first few days of free agency. If we can sign Hayward? No cap space left. If we know we can't sign a star and instead sign guys to overpriced, only one year guaranteed contracts like Amir Johnson & Jonas Jerebko did (to potentially include as matching salary in a trade for a star), no cap space. If we don't do either & have extra cap space, sure why not give them both raises for next year alone. But unless Thomas leaves significant $$$ on the table there is no reason to sign him to an extension this offseason, and I really doubt he's the type who would holdout (plus now you have this potential hip surgery muddying the waters.)

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

I think Boston are worth backing tonight, there's a decent chance the Cavs don't show up.

...or not. Cavs shooting the heck out of the ball.

[jbergey22]

Boston showing some fight!

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

...or not. Cavs shooting the heck out of the ball.

Or... Maybe? If the Cavs sit LeBron for the whole 4th quarter maybe we have a shot! Go swedish Larry Bird!

[Groundhog]

Regular season Cavs showed up today.

[Groundhog]

dola

that's probably exactly what the Cavs needed, but i'm kicking myself for not putting cash on the Celtics.

[Groundhog]

Not watching the game, but 4 fouls for LeBron in a half has to be a career high.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Not watching the game, but 4 fouls for LeBron in a half has to be a career high.

His BFF Windhorst said it was the first time he's had 4 in a 1st half ever. Only 3 playoffs games with 4+ fouls in the last 2 years.

[BishopMVP]

I'm beginning to think Kyrie's ankle injury wasn't that serious. Doesn't he at least know you go out on a wheelchair to build dramatic effect, not just tie your shoe really hard?

[Groundhog]

Tying your laces really hard is a great way to make sure your ankle blows up 3x it's normal size as soon as you take your shoe off post-game... speaking from experience.

[miami_fan]

That is probably enough of trying to get Zaza going early.

[Groundhog]

This is like both teams playing on easy mode on 2K. No defense, and I don't think the Cavs will be taking more than 1 game this series if they just try to out-shoot the Warriors.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

This is like both teams playing on easy mode on 2K. No defense, and I don't think the Cavs will be taking more than 1 game this series if they just try to out-shoot the Warriors.

It's two of the greatest offenses in NBA history playing. Not sure bad defense is the issue.