OT: A Song of Ice and Fire Series (spoilers inside)

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

No, not really. I think he's definitely involved and, therefore, probably distracted by it, but if it wasn't casting it'd be some convention, toy knights, the start of the NFL season, some anthology he's editing, etc.

He always does that other stuff. Now it seems like he's doing that and the HBO series, not that and writing.

[bronconick]

I think he's such a huge Giants fan that he's sworn not to lift a finger to write until Plaxico Burress is again free.

Okay, so I'm only half serious.

[Travis]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

If I had big ass titties, I'd never get anything done, because I'd be hanging upside down motorboating myself all the time.

Apparently some in that situation still find time to make a quick run out for supplies.

[Galaril]

Well, it is good to see George has made some real progress:

I decided to take a break from tearing and fumbling at the Meereenese knot, and completed a chapter about another character today. A character who is very far from Meereen.

Finishing the chapter felt good. Especially since it also completed that character's arc for the book. Admittedly, she has only two chapters in DANCE, so I am not sending up any flares. But hey, I'm done with one of them for the present, that's something.

Only thirty-eight more POVs to wrap up...

God what an ahole and at this pace he will finish this thing in 2013.

[Autumn]

lol, he's really tearing it up. Hopefully he'll pull a Jordan and add a few new characters in.

[ISiddiqui]

I'm going to have children by the time he releases the next book (FYI, I'm not married and I've been dating my current gf for a month and a half to put that in perspective).

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I'm going to have children by the time he releases the next book (FYI, I'm not married and I've been dating my current gf for a month and a half to put that in perspective).

I'm starting to think my 6-month old kid might have read the first book before the next one comes out.

[JAG]

I'm happy he's actually writing during football season.

grrm wrote:
Sep. 12th, 2009 04:42 pm (UTC)
Re: 38?
Yes, that's an exaggeration. A number I pulled out of the air.

sigh

Some of you guys take every word I say much too literally. I suppose I need to start using those "I'm just kidding" icons when I'm kidding, but I'm afraid I am not of the icon generation.

I don't actually know how many POVs I have. More than I intended, definitely, but less than thirty-eight. Way less.

Guess I should go count 'em.

That's pretty funny. Almost as funny as this guy:

I can't wait to see the Meereenese knot's untying in print, and I have faith that I'll see it before the winter is out.

Your faith in the Seven is sorely misplaced...

[flere-imsaho]

So, in two months (more or less) it will have been four years since the most recent book was published, if I'm looking at things correctly.

I'm going to guess my 1-year-old son will be headed off to college before Martin finishes the series.

[Autumn]

Is that right? Seems like more recently that the last one came out. But then again I have kids.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

So, in two months (more or less) it will have been four years since the most recent book was published, if I'm looking at things correctly.

I'm going to guess my 1-year-old son will be headed off to college before Martin finishes the series.

Yeah no joke that is probably true if he does not die of old age first.

[Vince, Pt. II]

I've been re-reading these lately (about halfway through Storm of Swords at the moment) and I forgot how great they were. So far no major complaints with the casting, though it'll be interesting to see how they pull some of them off - put me in the skeptical of the Cersei casting camp.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

I've been re-reading these lately (about halfway through Storm of Swords at the moment) and I forgot how great they were. So far no major complaints with the casting, though it'll be interesting to see how they pull some of them off - put me in the skeptical of the Cersei casting camp.

Is this Vince Vince? As in Vince from Santa Barbara who used to post here a ton, but I haven't seen him post in forever Vince?

If so, glad to see you around.

[DaddyTorgo]

Vince Pt. II is lame. SkyDog should just recover your password for you. An IP-trace could prove that you're the same person.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Yes, this is Vince Vince from Santa Barbara that used to post here a ton. It's good to be back - though I'm not sure an IP Trace would work. I've moved around a bunch and have gone through multiple computers/routers/ISPs since I was posting here regularly. I'm certain my knowledge of the SLO Burn's miserable history would be proof enough of my identity, though

I asked the HNIC to help me out, but he's busy and I don't really care that I'm now a n00b again, so I just made a new dummy e-mail address and re-registered.

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

Yes, this is Vince Vince from Santa Barbara that used to post here a ton. It's good to be back - though I'm not sure an IP Trace would work. I've moved around a bunch and have gone through multiple computers/routers/ISPs since I was posting here regularly. I'm certain my knowledge of the SLO Burn's miserable history would be proof enough of my identity, though

I asked the HNIC to help me out, but he's busy and I don't really care that I'm now a n00b again, so I just made a new dummy e-mail address and re-registered.

He's too busy? Damn, that's busy. I mean, I feel like I'm busy sometimes, but think that even then I could spare 1 minute of my time. But that's just me.

[JeeberD]

I would help if I could, but updating e-mail addresses isn't one of the powers I have...

[Vince, Pt. II]

Like I said, I don't care. I'm sure Ben's got plenty of more important things to do that aren't "make sure random poster's handle is not lame." It's really no big deal

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

Like I said, I don't care. I'm sure Ben's got plenty of more important things to do that aren't "make sure random poster's handle is not lame." It's really no big deal

BUT YOU'RE VINCE, DAMNIT!!!!! I DEMAND JUSTICE!!!!!

[Vince, Pt. II]

With the righteous fury of Schmidty on my side, how can I lose?

Put down half of Storm of Swords and all of Feast for Crows between Friday and Saturday - Strep Throat sucks (especially when you miss your ten year high school reunion because of it), but there's something to be said for a nice day of solid reading.

Though I know this thread is made up of and thoroughly warned about spoilers...I still feel the need to throw the warning up there.

In this venture through a Song of Ice and Fire (my third), I've had a bit of a different perspective than I normally do. Sansa was a bit more of a whiny, me-first, selfish brat to me this time through, and I really enjoyed Jaime Lannister's chapters more than I did my first two trips through. I also must have completely brainfaded my first time through A Feast for Crows (it wasn't published my first time through the series), because I completely forgot about Doran's discussion with Arianne near the end about his under-the-table contacts with the Targaryens. I probably should have waited a bit longer to re-read it, since Dance is probably still months away (at least), but this is still one of my favorite series of all time.

While I'm looking forward to everything in Dance, I think the storylines that intrigue me the most are Bran, Quentyn Martell and Davos - I am finding it very hard to believe that he's truly been killed. Though I'm very curious about where Martin is going with the Dondarrion/Catelyn thing, I'm not thrilled with how they were portrayed near the end, and I'm curious as to what happens to Brienne and the rest of the outlaws. Also, the 'High Sparrow' is a very intriguing character to me, and the shambles that Cersei has made of King's Landing will be difficult to sort out, even for a player of Littlefinger's capacity. It seems that the Tyrells, even short one Knight of Flowers, are the strongest family left in Westeros - and you know that Tarly will support them. The Blackfish is out there somewhere, but where does he run? The Lightning Lord would have seemed the perfect place, but with Dondarrion out of the picture, I'm not certain he'd fit in well there. Then there's Littlefinger - what is the true depth of his scheme? He's elevated himself all the way to the Lord Protector of the Vale, and set Sansa up to be incredibly powerful...but in so doing, once the plan comes to fruition he has no tenuous hold on Sansa, plus she will be married. It would seem that his initial goal had been solely to get Ned Stark killed and earn himself a title (Lord of Harrenhal, perhaps?) so that a match with Catelyn would be possible, but Tywin and the Freys nuked that possibility...does he seek revenge? Or continue to amass power? To what end? What is to become of Arya, who is now apparently blind? How will Stannis handle Lord Snow's decision to take away Mance's child secretly? Who will end up with Danaerys - Quentyn Martell? Victarion Greyjoy? Euron Greyjoy? Someone else entirely? I think that Bran Stark may actually be the darkhorse in that race, though that's a completely unfounded whim on my part. What of Nymeria the Direwolf, who has apparently accumulated quite the pack of man-eaters over in Westeros?

So many questions...so few answers. I love this series

[flere-imsaho]

Awesome post, Vince. I share many of the same questions, which is clearly what keeps me so interested in seeing the next book.

One that you left out, which I'm also interested in seeing, is what happens to Rickon & Shaggydog when they return to civilization after what I'm going to assume is going to be months and/or years in the wilderness.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

With the righteous fury of Schmidty on my side, how can I lose?

Put down half of Storm of Swords and all of Feast for Crows between Friday and Saturday - Strep Throat sucks (especially when you miss your ten year high school reunion because of it), but there's something to be said for a nice day of solid reading.

Though I know this thread is made up of and thoroughly warned about spoilers...I still feel the need to throw the warning up there.

In this venture through a Song of Ice and Fire (my third), I've had a bit of a different perspective than I normally do. Sansa was a bit more of a whiny, me-first, selfish brat to me this time through, and I really enjoyed Jaime Lannister's chapters more than I did my first two trips through. I also must have completely brainfaded my first time through A Feast for Crows (it wasn't published my first time through the series), because I completely forgot about Doran's discussion with Arianne near the end about his under-the-table contacts with the Targaryens. I probably should have waited a bit longer to re-read it, since Dance is probably still months away (at least), but this is still one of my favorite series of all time.

While I'm looking forward to everything in Dance, I think the storylines that intrigue me the most are Bran, Quentyn Martell and Davos - I am finding it very hard to believe that he's truly been killed. Though I'm very curious about where Martin is going with the Dondarrion/Catelyn thing, I'm not thrilled with how they were portrayed near the end, and I'm curious as to what happens to Brienne and the rest of the outlaws. Also, the 'High Sparrow' is a very intriguing character to me, and the shambles that Cersei has made of King's Landing will be difficult to sort out, even for a player of Littlefinger's capacity. It seems that the Tyrells, even short one Knight of Flowers, are the strongest family left in Westeros - and you know that Tarly will support them. The Blackfish is out there somewhere, but where does he run? The Lightning Lord would have seemed the perfect place, but with Dondarrion out of the picture, I'm not certain he'd fit in well there. Then there's Littlefinger - what is the true depth of his scheme? He's elevated himself all the way to the Lord Protector of the Vale, and set Sansa up to be incredibly powerful...but in so doing, once the plan comes to fruition he has no tenuous hold on Sansa, plus she will be married. It would seem that his initial goal had been solely to get Ned Stark killed and earn himself a title (Lord of Harrenhal, perhaps?) so that a match with Catelyn would be possible, but Tywin and the Freys nuked that possibility...does he seek revenge? Or continue to amass power? To what end? What is to become of Arya, who is now apparently blind? How will Stannis handle Lord Snow's decision to take away Mance's child secretly? Who will end up with Danaerys - Quentyn Martell? Victarion Greyjoy? Euron Greyjoy? Someone else entirely? I think that Bran Stark may actually be the darkhorse in that race, though that's a completely unfounded whim on my part. What of Nymeria the Direwolf, who has apparently accumulated quite the pack of man-eaters over in Westeros?

So many questions...so few answers. I love this series

Great stuff! I've gone through these things 5 times now and have many of the same questions. With each reading I've always become a little more sympathetic to Sansa. Yes, she is whiny and such, but she's only, what, 12? 13? So, I try not to be too hard on her. Jamie's chapters have always been some of my favorites. I still think what Martin was able to do with that character was one of his greatest achievements. He basically made one of the most dispicable characters in the first two books into one of the coolest, most heroic characters and did so in a way that felt completely natural and not at all forced. I loved it.

Here are my thoughts on a few of your questions:

1. I don't think Davos is dead either. Even for Martin that would be weird.

2. For some reason, I've always loved Beric Dondarrion (it's the name I always use for my Football Manager choice) and loved that storyline. The scene with them at the end of Feast was one of my favorites in that book. I've always thought that, while the first three books focused on the wars between the kingdoms, the last 3 (or how many ever) would shift focus to war "among the gods", chiefly between R'hollor and The Other. What's interesting, however, is that while R'hollor certainly seems to be "the good guy" as opposed to The Other, he's clearly not "good".

Melissandre is creepy as all get out and I always thought that the fact that R'hollor took his "gift" from Dondarrion and gave it to Catelyn/Lady Stoneheart was sort of Martin's way of saying that R'hollor is all about chaos and consuming as much as possible. Like Maester Aemon said "fire consumes." Dondarrion and has band was a great vessel for that during the war. They protected the smallfolk, but also killed a great number of "enemies" while at it. Catelyn comes along and, since the war is beginning to die down, she is suddenly much better suited for chaos/consumption because she is so angry and full of rage. Her goal isn't some sort of justice, but simply revenge, making those who wronged her pay. You could really see it in the way Lem, Jack be Lucy, Thoros, etc. had changed. They were sort of burnt out on it all and had lost their way. I think this Martin saying that this isn't a war between "good" and "evil", but just an old war between two gods.

As for what happens to Brienne, I think she calls for the sword and gets free. If not, Martin wasted a LOT of time and paper on a quest that didn't do much.

2. I think the "High Sparrow" is going to be the third element/wildcard in this "religious" war. It will be interesting to see how The Seven fit in with this war between the Other and R'hollor. We really haven't seen any evidence that The Seven has any kind of power at all.

3. As for Littlefinger, I think once he sailed from Kings Landing he gave that all up. He washed his hands of it and decided that his best plan was the Vale. The Vale is the only part of Westeros that was left untouched by the war. They likely have the strongest army and best supplies. I am not sure if he had ever planned to marry Catelyn. He wanted the title of Lord of Harrenhall to marry Lysa. I think he also put his aims on Sansa. He wanted to have her and didn't want her in the hands of the Lannisters or Tyrells. Now, I think he plans to elevate her as Queen of The North and rally the Vale behind her and Harry The Heir. What role he sees for himself, I don't know. Lord of The Vale wouldn't be a bad spot or Hand of the King or something along those lines. I'm sure he has more plans in the making. I think Little Finger also realized that the Vale will never rally around a guy like him, but will around the heir of Winterfell and Harry. So, if he can put that together and rally the Vale, he will have the strongest force in Westeros.

4. I think Arya will only be blind for a bit. I'm sure it's part of her training. I am not sure what Martin is going to do here. How will enough time pass that Arya actually completes her training and becomes a faceless man? It seems like it would take a long time for that to happen. Similarly, how does he make enough time pass for Dany's dragons to grow big enough to be of use? Also, what use is Tyrion now? His power was totally a result of his wits, his family and his wealth. He still has his wits, but neither family nor wealth. He has no real power and his only value would seem to be chopping his head off and sending it to Cersei. What does he do? Tough questions.

5. I love the fact that you have all these outside forces converging on Dany, Quentyn Martell, Victarion, etc. I think, at the end of the day, Dany and Jon Snow could be meant for each other. Though, that'd be a little weird since Jon is (most likely) technically Dany's uncle. Still, they are Targaryens, so that kind of thing happens.

6. I think Stannis will be pissed, no doubt. What he can do about it, is another matter. Stannis gets a lot of flak and, while he's annoying at times, like Sansa, the more I read the more sympathy I feel for the guy.

7. Not sure where the Blackfish will end up. He's awesome though. The only Tully worth anything.

Other questions I have is what role will those characters like Jamie, Arya, Sansa, Tyrion, etc. eventually play at the end?

What about that small group of Northerners that Rob sent north before the Red Wedding to find Howland Reed? What comes of that group, if anything?

I'm sure there are dozens more...

[flere-imsaho]

I think you're spot on regarding Littlefinger. He's smart enough to know he's never going to be an outright leader, and operates more effectively behind the scenes anyway.

[DaddyTorgo]

There's so much going on in these books...it's just unreal. So many strands.

[Autumn]

I second his achievement with Jaime. I have a friend who I just got started on these. He keeps me updated on what he's reading, and at this point he 1) doesn't even remember Jaime's name, but 2) thinks he's about the worst person he's ever read about. I really had to work hard to keep my mouth shut, instead of yelling, "I know! And the most astounding thing is that in a few books you'll be rooting for him more than anyone." It truly is part of what makes this series great.

[Vince, Pt. II]

I think that my favorite part about the whole thing is that he [Martin] can go for thousands of pages about different people, plotlines, families, etc, and then introduce a whole new set of main characters like the Martells in Dorne, and have me completely hooked on them from the get-go.

HB, I think you're totally spot-on with R'hollor - fire consumes is a perfect way to put it. And my disappointment with what happens to the Lightning Lord's band stems more from my love of Dondarrion's character than from anything else, I think. I was very sad to see him leave the picture. The transition from a Robin-Hood esque band looking out for the little people to a group that is more about consumption and survival (which I think was most notable in Lem's disposition towards Brienne at the end) does seem very natural towards the end of the war. I also found it odd that Tom 'o Sevens was with the Freys near the end - reconnaisance perhaps? Or a falling-out with the rest as Catelyn took over for Dondarrion?

Regarding the High Sparrow and others...I think another fantastic achievement of Martin is his wonderful juxtaposition of religious conflict versus political conflict. The inclusion of the Seven, the Old Gods of the North, R'hollor vs. the Other, the Drowned God, the Many-Faced God of the Faceless Men, and even the myriad of gods touched on but not introduced throughout Danaerys' storyline. Speaking of R'hollor, though - I wonder if indeed he's even a "good" guy. Melisandre is certainly all about fire is life, light is good...but her fruits seem to be pretty dark in nature. From the shadowy creatures that she spawned to kill Renly and the Castellan of Storm's End to the fact that she requires human sacrifice of innocents to fulfill them, R'hollor doesn't exactly sound like my kind of deity. Even though he's been the vessel for Dondarrion's continued resurrections (a known good guy), Dondarrion isn't exactly a healthy looking guy after each, and Lady Catelyn is downright frightening after hers. Now, Martin is wonderful at blurring the lines between good and evil, so who's to say there even IS a good guy/bad guy in the religious war - but I'm not so sold on R'hollor even leaning towards the good side, even though some notably "good" characters (Stannis, Dondarrion, Thoros) have fallen in with him.

As for Littlefinger - I'm not so sure. At first, I was certain that as such an intelligent, amazing player of the Game of Thrones he'd have to realize that his true strength was in being behind the scenes, and that as Master of Coin he was in a nearly perfect position to influence everything - to be the man behind the curtain, so to speak. But he HAS to have some sort of motive for setting this entire thing in motion, does he not? He urged Lysa to kill Jon Arryn, which was really the beginning of everything. The eventual large result (for him, anyways) was his being named Lord of Harrenhal and Ruler of the Trident - which led me to believe his motive for that was to remove Ned Stark from the picture, but that's just a guess. It's obvious now that he wants Sansa - but he can't remove Harry the Heir without invalidating their power in the Vale. Though he was able to turn the Lords Declarant aside easily (brilliant move buying out Lyn Corbray, by the way), to get further power (that has to be his goal, doesn't it?) at some point he has to stop scheming and LAND, doesn't he? Or perhaps it's all for the game... That being said...if his true goal is to end up in a position of power, why in blazes would he go after the North? They seem to be in the most chaotic position of everyone - Winterfell is in ruins, the Krakens still control the neck as far as anyone knows, and the majority of the lords of the North have taken huge casualties between The Mountain that Rides, Bolton's treachery (who else was convinced that the Bolton Bastard and Bolton himself were in cahoots the whole time?), the Red Wedding, and the general fall-out of the war. Also, he seemed to be the most informed man at court who wasn't Varys (also a player I'm interested to see where he landed...my guess is wherever Tyrion went - Jaime pretty much ruined his place at court), so he has to have at least SOME inkling of what is going on up at the Wall, and I'm certain that he wouldn't want to have to deal with an Army of Wildlings and Stannis Baratheon.

Though I guess he has nowhere else to go, really - the Trident is just as mucked up as the North, the Freys, while buying Lannister favors, have completely alienated themselves from everyone else as now no one in the world will trust them with anything and the entire North hates them with a passion. Which brings up an interesting thought - where does Catelyn turn first? On the Freys or the Lannisters?

As for the Blackfish, my initial thought is that he'll try to rally up some of the Northerners, but the problem is that he'd have to leave the Riverlands to do it, and while he was totally all-in with the Young Wolf, he strikes me as more of an 'I'm going to make life at Riverrun completely and horribly terrible for anyone and everyone now' sort of guy.

And all of this is completely ignoring the "real" threat - what is behind the Others, the Wights, and all of the unnatural things that led the Wildlings to come down in the first place?

I could talk about this stuff for days

[Vince, Pt. II]

Ah, something I totally forgot to mention in either post...

People have been making a pretty big deal about Robert's bastard children throughout the book. I'm wondering if there's something more to it than simply proving Cersei and Jaime Lannister's crimes? Mya Stone, Gendry the Smith, Edric Storm - even after the incest plot line has become less than important to the story, Martin has gone out of his way to have characters notice and comment on these bastards and realize how much they look like Robert. I understand that with Edric it was mostly about Melisandre's need for royal blood...but is there going to be a revelation at some point to the general public to further confuse things in King's Landing? For a while I was utterly convinced that Arya and Gendry were going to end up together, uniting the North and possibly more...but now I don't think that's possible.

Also, Kevan Lannister...what of him? He strikes me very much similar to Barristan Selmy's character - insulted (without reason) and sent off irritated, but he has nowhere to go, especially now that Lancel has decided to take on vows as a holy knight. What becomes of him now?

EDIT - As a final thought for my Littlefinger rant...

I guess what it all comes down to is how does Martin see Littlefinger? Is he smart enough to know where to stop? Or does he truly think he's better than everyone else and he will keep reaching? While the trial of Tyrion made for very entertaining reading (not humorous, just a great read), I was a little disappointed in it in that it sort of removed Tyrion as a player. Like HB said, he now has no power to back up his intellect - and while said intellect is prodigious, it counts for nothing by itself. I was very much looking forward to watching Littlfinger and Tyrion spar, but very quickly after Tyrion rose to power in King's Landing, Petyr took off. Was that intentional or happenstance? I'm hoping we can see Tyrion continue to be a major piece, because he seems to be the only one (outside of maybe Tywin Lannister or the Queen of Thorns) who is a match for Petyr Baelish.

[flere-imsaho]

I haven't got a fix on Baelish's root motivation, so it's hard to tell what he's going to do next/where he'll stop. The best I can guess is that he'll sell the power of the Vale (under Harry & Sansa) to the highest bidder of the current contestants and get some rich lands/titles out of it to increase his wealth.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I think the root of Little Finger's motivation is two-fold: One is his obsession with Catelyn, which, has now, become an obsession with Sansa. It's odd, it's unsettling, and, I think, will ultimately be his undoing. I'm sure he has some grand scheme in mind in which he raises Sansa to some position of great power, which, in turn, gives him more power, but despite all of his plots and wits and schemes, Little Finger, at his core, is all about Catelyn/Sansa. It's an obsession that his driven him since he was a kid and (hopefully) will lead to a mis-step that leads to his downfall. He's a great, entertaining character, but he has it coming...

There's no way Martin is going to totally write Tyrion off. He's admitted, over and over again, that Tyrion is his favorite character. I just don't know how Martin will be able to make Tyrion relevant again. He's a total outcast and it's not like he can move around freely in Westeros at all. That would lead him to the Free Cities and possibly meeting up with Dany, but I have no idea why she would do anything but kill him out right. She hates the Lannisters and it's not like anyone around her would concil that she accept Tyrion. I really feel like this is one of the several corners Martin has written himself into.

One possibility for the Blackfish is to head back to the Vale. That's where he was originally. Either there, or perhaps he could try to find some River Lords who are still somewhat loyal to Riverrun and try to stir up trouble. He's far too cool a character to simply disappear.

I'm not really sure what role, if any, Robert's various bastards will play.

As for R'hollor, I don't think he's particularly "good" either. Dondarrion certainly didn't think so after 5th/6th time he was brought back to life. The "Other" seems like a pretty malevolent force, however. Also tied up in this religious/mystical battle are the Old Gods. In that corner, we (may) have Cold Hands/Bran. Cold Hands seemed to be an odd mix of mainly the Old Gods (riding an elk, control over the ravens) and the Others (cold, black hands like the undead), so I'm not 100% sure where he falls in the spectrum.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Good point about the Vale and the Blackfish. He'd certainly recognize Sansa, wouldn't he? If only because she looks so very much like Catelyn...perhaps there is where Littlefinger begins his fall? I'm with you in that I think that his obsession with Cat/Sansa is definitely going to be what brings him down, and that he is going down.

I also agree that Tyrion isn't going to disappear, I should have probably made it clear that I wanted him to remain a major piece in Westeros, but like you said, Martin seems to have written himself into a corner with that one. To me, some of the most enjoyable reading in the series was from the time Tyrion was made Hand until the end of the battle for King's Landing.

I love how Martin can create characters that are not at all involved in the story, and have them be so impressive. Arthur Dayne might make a Mt. Rushmore of amazing fictional literary heroes for me, and he's dead this whole series. Incredible

[Honolulu_Blue]

Yeah, Tyrion as the Hand of the King was fantastic. It was great to see all the political machinations going on in Kings Landing from the perspective of someone who is either not an idiot (Cersei) or 13 (Sansa). It was great stuff.

Another thing about the Brotherhood without Banners. I, too, was a bit confused as to whether there was faction split among them, with some like Lem, Thoros, etc. following Catelyn and others (Tom O Sevens, Anguy, etc.) deciding enough is enough and splitting off on their own. I think it may be the former. I got the impression based on Tom's brief conversation with Jamie that he was at Riverrun sort of getting the lay of the land, figuring out who was travelling where and when and then coming back to report to the main group to set up an ambush. I think he inquired about where Jamie was going and said it was "too bad" or "disappointing" that he wasn't leaving.

I totally agree about all of the historical characters. It's very compelling part of that world. The history and the characters who have been long dead since before the books started feel so real and loom like shadows over the rest of the characters. Rhaeger, Arthur Dane, the White Bull, the Smiling Knight, all those "legendary" characters are really brought to life in a way that, again, feels completely natural.

I also wonder if Martin has any further plans for the Hound. While I wouldn't put it past him to simply have the Hound written off to spend the rest of his days on that island working in silence, I would love for him to come back in some fashion. I'm secretly hoping that if he hears that Gregor is still "alive" that will be enough to convince him to get back into the game. He's another character, like Jamie, who you start off hating but, despite never not being quite brutal, becomes a very sympathetic and cool character.

[cschex]

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

I also agree that Tyrion isn't going to disappear, I should have probably made it clear that I wanted him to remain a major piece in Westeros, but like you said, Martin seems to have written himself into a corner with that one. To me, some of the most enjoyable reading in the series was from the time Tyrion was made Hand until the end of the battle for King's Landing.

I love how Martin can create characters that are not at all involved in the story, and have them be so impressive. Arthur Dayne might make a Mt. Rushmore of amazing fictional literary heroes for me, and he's dead this whole series. Incredible

The Tyrion arc in aCoK is fantastic, all the more so because Martin convinces you all of Tyrion's plotting will work out and in the end he saves KL but all of his power and plots come crashing down. I think Martin has come up with a way for Danyto accept him: The Varys/Illyrio connection, with Illyrio being the conduit with which he gets delivered to Dany.

Totally agree on Arthur Dayne. The flashback scene in Ned's last POV is probably my favorite scene in any book I've ever read.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by cschex

Totally agree on Arthur Dayne. The flashback scene in Ned's last POV is probably my favorite scene in any book I've ever read.

I agree. That is my favorite scene in the series as well. I've read it over dozens of times.

[terpkristin]

Why does all this cool talk start up right when work is having issues out the ying-yang?!?!!

/tk

[Bad-example]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

I also wonder if Martin has any further plans for the Hound. While I wouldn't put it past him to simply have the Hound written off to spend the rest of his days on that island working in silence, I would love for him to come back in some fashion. I'm secretly hoping that if he hears that Gregor is still "alive" that will be enough to convince him to get back into the game.

It has been a while since I read these, but both Gregor and the Hound are dead, right? Arry did the Hound a favor by killing him. And the Red Viper took care of his brother.

edit - I looked on wiki and read up. Arry refused to kill the Hound and there is apparently a loophole regarding Gregor's death.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Bad-example

It has been a while since I read these, but both Gregor and the Hound are dead, right? Arry did the Hound a favor by killing him. And the Red Viper took care of his brother.

Well... sorta. Kinda.

Arya didn't kill the Hound. He asked her to do it, but she refused to and just left him to die. Later on, in Feast, Brienne and company go to Quiet Island and meet up with a priest there. He tells them that he found that he found Sandor Clegane feverish and dying under a tree, that they talked, and that Sandor is dead and that he left his helmet at his grave site. However, many believe (including me), that Sandor Clegane is "dead" very much in the way that Obi Wan Kenobi told Luke Anakin Skywalker was "dead". The man that he was is dead, not the new person. There is a silent brother on the island who is described as being huge and having a bad limp (consistent with the Hound's wounds he suffered at the Inn). His face is covered, like the rest, so you don't see the scars, but he throws dirt at Brienne's feet, showing his well documented disgust of knights. The island also has his horse, Stranger.

As for Gregor, he was dying for a long time due to the Red Viper's poison, however, at multiple times throughout Feast Qyburn keeps talking about his experiments he's doing with Gregor's body (they sent a massive skull to Dorne as proof of his Gregor's death, but it was not Gregor's) and Qyburn has a huge suit of armor made that no man could wear. At the end of Feast, he tells Cersei that her "champion" is ready. Many believe (including me) that Qyburn is dabbling with dark arts and has some how animated Gregor's corpse (perhaps something similar to the Other's magic or something) and that this un-dead (or mostly dead) Gregorstein will be Cersei's champion, assuming it comes to that, in her trial for innocence.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

Good point about the Vale and the Blackfish. He'd certainly recognize Sansa, wouldn't he? If only because she looks so very much like Catelyn...perhaps there is where Littlefinger begins his fall? I'm with you in that I think that his obsession with Cat/Sansa is definitely going to be what brings him down, and that he is going down.

I also agree that Tyrion isn't going to disappear, I should have probably made it clear that I wanted him to remain a major piece in Westeros, but like you said, Martin seems to have written himself into a corner with that one. To me, some of the most enjoyable reading in the series was from the time Tyrion was made Hand until the end of the battle for King's Landing.

I love how Martin can create characters that are not at all involved in the story, and have them be so impressive. Arthur Dayne might make a Mt. Rushmore of amazing fictional literary heroes for me, and he's dead this whole series. Incredible

Arthur Dayne is probably one of my favorite characters in the whole series, and he's not even alive. Well him and the White Bull. I'd love to see some fic (well written fanfic or GRRM-written fic) dealing with the Targ-days

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

I agree. That is my favorite scene in the series as well. I've read it over dozens of times.

i forget this scene, but i'm rereading anyways...

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

i forget this scene, but i'm rereading anyways...

It's sort of a dream sequence right after Ned breaks his leg. It's his memory of when he, Howland Reed, and five others ride down to find Lyana and she's being guarded by three of the Kingsguard, Arthur Dayne, the White Bull, and Oswell Whent.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

It's sort of a dream sequence right after Ned breaks his leg. It's his memory of when he, Howland Reed, and five others ride down to find Lyana and she's being guarded by three of the Kingsguard, Arthur Dayne, the White Bull, and Oswell Whent.

oh yeah...that scene *nods* thought maybe you were referring to something else that i didn't quite remember.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Originally Posted by terpkristin

Why does all this cool talk start up right when work is having issues out the ying-yang?!?!!

/tk

I just picked the wrong time to come back. My bad Hurry up and get your work to fix their crap, I want to hear you weigh in on this stuff.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Anyone else think that it might not have been Cersei who paid off the Kingsguard knight (whose name is escaping me right now) to kill Tyrion? Personally, I think it's a coin-flip between her and Littlefinger.

Also, poor Podrick Payne - kid seems to be forgotten by everyone, and ends up getting hanged with Brienne.

[Schmidty]

I have a lot of things to say. I wish I didn't suck and typing, and that I am so damned lazy.

Jaime is one of the greatest characters I've ever read.

That's all I have right now. Work is too close, and I am the Strongman tomorrow. Time to sleep and focus.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

Anyone else think that it might not have been Cersei who paid off the Kingsguard knight (whose name is escaping me right now) to kill Tyrion? Personally, I think it's a coin-flip between her and Littlefinger.

Also, poor Podrick Payne - kid seems to be forgotten by everyone, and ends up getting hanged with Brienne.

I never considered that anyone other than Cersei was the one who paid off Mandon Moore (or was it Meryn Trant, I always get those two confused) to try and kill Tyrion. I don't think it was ever answered definitively, but I'm almost positive it was her, especially since Little Finger had been out of Kings Landing for so long leading up to that (he was out bargaining with the Tyrells).

[flere-imsaho]

I speculate that Baelish's original motivation was Catelyn, and his machinations in the first book were to raise himself to a high enough point of prestige to, once Ned was out of the way, get her for himself.

Further, I think he took Sansa with him to the Vale for two reasons. First, as a potential bargaining chip/asset for the future, and second, for sentimental reasons as she's Catelyn's daughter after all. I believe he had some real feelings for Lysa (possibly a transfer from Catelyn), but when she threatened Sansa and, by extension, everything he had built up, he wasn't sentimental enough to not get rid of her as necessary.

I think Sansa will be Peter's undoing if he ends up transferring his feelings from Catelyn to her, but I'm generally not of the opinion that he'll do that. In general he's a pretty logical character, and so at this point you'd guess his motivation is power, prestige and security. Maneuvering Sansa & Harry back on to the throne and somehow uniting Westeros in the process (or subjugating, same difference) accomplishes this for him and also takes into account the fact (that he must know) that he can't be king himself.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I've always felt that Little Finger's feelings for Sansa went well beyond "sentimental" and that he's already transferred his feelings from Cat to her. While it's hard to say exactly, since all we get is Sansa's perspective on it, he's often described as looking at her intensely and then there was that long kiss between the two of them at the end of Storm of Swords. He's also commented a couple of times about how much she looks like Cat and is, perhaps, even more beautiful. A lot of his interaction with her is also quite flirtatious.

Lysa saw that kiss and that's why she started to threaten Sansa. I don't think Little Finger had planned to kill Lysa so quickly (if at all), but at that point, I think he killed her for two reasons: 1) She was a total liability to his plans and 2) that she threatend to kill Sansa.

I think he sort of tried to settle for Lysa once it was obvious that he couldn't have Cat. She was mad about him, but I don't think he ever truly felt she an adequate replacement. His feelings towards Cat have always been described as sort of bordering on obsession. He even went so far as to try and fight Brandon Stark for her hand, even though there was no he was ever going to win. Even though he was young when that all happened, it was a very un-Little Finger type move.

Like was mentioned, much that went in all of these books, much of the cause of the war between the Lannisters and the Starks (Lysa's letter telling Cat that the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn), is a result of Little Finger's schemes to get Cat back or, at the very least, bring down the Starks for taking her from him.

Little Finger is very logical and incredibly smart, but I do think his obsession for Cat/Sansa will eventually bring him down. He's a bit like Tyrion in that. Tyrion has that weakness for whores (really, all he wants to be is loved, but, other than Tysha, who he had always believed was a whore, whores were the only place he could find it) and that's always sort of trumped his otherwise very reasonable and intelligent plans.

[cschex]

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

Anyone else think that it might not have been Cersei who paid off the Kingsguard knight (whose name is escaping me right now) to kill Tyrion? Personally, I think it's a coin-flip between her and Littlefinger.

Also, poor Podrick Payne - kid seems to be forgotten by everyone, and ends up getting hanged with Brienne.

I've always believed this to be Littlefinger for two main reasons. The first is hiring a Kingsguard isn't Cersei's style at all, she would order him to kill Tyrion in Joffrey's name. Also, it's too subtle for her. The other (stronger) reason is that Mandon Moore is from the Vale like Littlefinger, and we know how much influence Littlefinger had with mercenaries and minor houses in the Vale who came to KL (see Kettleblacks). It's not a strech that he would have been on LF's payroll the whole time he was a KG.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by cschex

I've always believed this to be Littlefinger for two main reasons. The first is hiring a Kingsguard isn't Cersei's style at all, she would order him to kill Tyrion in Joffrey's name. Also, it's too subtle for her. The other (stronger) reason is that Mandon Moore is from the Vale like Littlefinger, and we know how much influence Littlefinger had with mercenaries and minor houses in the Vale who came to KL (see Kettleblacks). It's not a strech that he would have been on LF's payroll the whole time he was a KG.

You know, the more I think about it could have been LF. If Cersei had done it, it would have almost certainly come up in one of POV chapters in Feast For Crows. There's no way that, at some point, she wouldn't have thought that her sweet Joffery would still be alive if Mandon Moore had done as she asked. Given that and the fact that Tyrion found no evidence that Moore was connected to Cersei does hint that it was something else.

Given that he was from the Vale and that Little Finger had already tried to get rid of Tyrion, by telling Cat that it was his dagger that the catspaw had to kill Bran, it would make it very possible that Little Finger was involved.

I guess there is a third option: Joffery. He was the King and was certainly not above ordering his Kingsguard to do his dirty work (i.e., beating up Sansa). He already asked the catspaw to kill Bran and certainly had no love, whatsoever, for Tyrion. So, asking Moore to kill Tyrion during the battle is certainly consistent with his MO.

[finketr]

I see plans within plans within plans.

[Vince, Pt. II]

I never thought about Joff - that could very well be it as well. Especially since even with Petyr's amazing grasp of things, how could he possibly think that Tyrion would ever be in a place where a Knight of the Kingsguard could conceivably just 'off' Tyrion and get away with it? It's almost to the point where any time someone in the books is SURE of something, I assume it's wrong. Tyrion is so convinced that it was his sister (with no evidence), he almost has to be wrong. Also, I think Cersei is almost certainly wrong in thinking that Tyrion is the one referenced in her visit to 'Maggy the Frog' the maegi from her childhood. If we remember correctly, Jaime is also her valonqar, as the Martells so nicely pointed out, since she was born first. I think it would be a delicious bit of irony if it were Jaime who was the one who cost her everything - and by burning Cersei's final, begging request for help, he may have done just that.

As for Littlefinger, I don't think he EVER thought of Lysa as anything more than a catspaw. She's far too simpering, imbecilic..whatever. While she may have been a replacement for Cat if she looked and/or acted as she did when she was younger, I don't think that there ever could have been a replacement for Cat until Cat was dead - unless it were Sansa, of course. A younger, more beautiful model of the original whom he could mold to be whatever and however he wanted? The perfect goal. By the time Catelyn was dead, though, Lysa was simply a wreck - overweight, pasty, frightened and completely oversensitive to everything. I think he eventually would have HAD to kill Lysa - the only thing that Lysa loved more than Petyr was her baby boy, and the way that she babied him would have NEVER fit into his plans. I actually wouldn't have put it past Petyr to have planned that kiss intentionally for that time as it was - there wasn't anything in the Vale that was getting any better or stronger while he waited, and the situation around the rest of Westeros was getting more and more grim as the days went on. As soon as he had Sansa, he had the tools to remove Lysa completely - Lysa and Robert Arryn were the only two things between Harry the Heir and the control of the Vale, and with Sansa already flowered, all he had to do was set up the contracts and the Vale was his. He would have known how Lysa would react (insane jealousy) if she caught him kissing her, and he had to have known she would be watching...

I'm just wondering what he plans to do with Harry the Heir after the wedding...without him, he loses the Vale.