Pro Wrestling Discussion Thread **Spoilers Possible**

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

The lack of roster depth - to this point at least - is what has me feeling extremely skeptical about the whole venture.

It feels to me to be a case of some egos getting out of touch with reality & forgetting one very key point: to have great matches & be compelling in the ring requires TWO participants (for singles).

Even if they signed Omega tomorrow, who is he going to work? Jericho? Fine, that's 1-2 matches before it's been done. Midcarders? Carrying a broomstick is one thing, but how many times can you do that and have it be interesting for people to watch?

Everyone else on the roster so far (aside perhaps from Page) has shown their ceiling already. They're capable of playing some roles but there isn't a lot beyond upper mid / mid talent there right now.

They don't need one top tier signing, or two, they need a half dozen or more ... and I just don't think that many are out there.

I think there are enough out there. Every year BOLA has names pop up that end up becoming decent size stars in a few years. I just don't know if egos will allow that to happen in AEW.

The bigger problem is who is going to do the job. They need someone on the back end of their careers to develop the next star/s.

As far as stars they are going to have to grab the future endeavors of the WWE/NXT or hope that ht rumors of Impact being for sale are true (I always thought Mundo had "it").

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Selling an arena out in Chicago seems a lot easier than selling out an arena in Vegas and Jacksonville. Chicago has a real passionate group of wrestling fans that will show up for just about anything. Not sure how those other cities are in terms of fans.

They are doing Starrcast II before the event in Vegas in May. They should be okay for this event. I think where their home base is (if it is Jacksonville) might be the bigger problem.

[murrayyyyy]

Also one choice out there on TV that might be a possibility also. ESPN with it's family of networks. What would they lose giving up a time slot weekly? If they didn't have to put any money behind it then it's an easy win.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

As far as stars they are going to have to grab the future endeavors of the WWE/NXT or hope that ht rumors of Impact being for sale are true (I always thought Mundo had "it").

I'm inclined to believe the rumor that Impact was offered to AEW and they declined.

There's maybe 3-4 usable talents there but a lot of negative baggage at this point.

[RainMaker]

I thought Anthem wanted Impact for content on Fight Network and Pursuit which they own.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I thought Anthem wanted Impact for content on Fight Network and Pursuit which they own.

I suspect they've figured out that it has negative ROI.

And, given the timeslot assignment, I'm pretty sure we see how much they "wanted" Impact on Pursuit.

[JonInMiddleGA]

ROH TV taping in Atlanta tonight ran about 4h45m.

Bandido was, by far, the most over guy in the building.

Biggest development was the reveal of a new faction "The Bloodline"
That's Juice, Finlay, Haskins, Bandido, Tracy Williams, and a returning from injury Tenille Dashwood.

Their gimmick is to "bring the honor back to Ring of Honor" ... which was a theme echoed by a passionate Jay Lethal in a separate promo. That led to a 10 man tag finale - a combination spot fest & show of respect.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Injury update this morning from ROH.

Awaiting MRIs to confirm but preliminary diagnosis is that Chris Sabin suffered a torn ACL (his third) on Saturday night in Atlanta and that Flip Gordon suffered an MCL sprain and will be out for four weeks.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

ROH TV taping in Atlanta tonight ran about 4h45m.

Bandido was, by far, the most over guy in the building.

Biggest development was the reveal of a new faction "The Bloodline"
That's Juice, Finlay, Haskins, Bandido, Tracy Williams, and a returning from injury Tenille Dashwood.

Their gimmick is to "bring the honor back to Ring of Honor" ... which was a theme echoed by a passionate Jay Lethal in a separate promo. That led to a 10 man tag finale - a combination spot fest & show of respect.

Not sure the gimmick of the stable works but I like what I've seen from Juice and Emma felt criminally underused in WWE.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

ROH TV taping in Atlanta tonight ran about 4h45m.

Bandido was, by far, the most over guy in the building.

Biggest development was the reveal of a new faction "The Bloodline"
That's Juice, Finlay, Haskins, Bandido, Tracy Williams, and a returning from injury Tenille Dashwood.

Their gimmick is to "bring the honor back to Ring of Honor" ... which was a theme echoed by a passionate Jay Lethal in a separate promo. That led to a 10 man tag finale - a combination spot fest & show of respect.

You know Jon, I can't help but read these as TEW post match readouts. I don't follow enough to know any of them, but every time you post one, that's all I can think about. lol

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Not sure the gimmick of the stable works but I like what I've seen from Juice and Emma felt criminally underused in WWE.

Honestly, though they're playing it face (and it's hard for an NJPW fan to think of Juice as anything else), the vibe of them in the ring to me was very heel.

1) They arrived by interrupting Lethal
2) They came to the ring all serious & shit
3) There's some exposition by Juice, then Jay said something about how there were a lot of guys in the back who felt the same way as he did & apparently as Juice & Co does, so ... and Juice cuts him off cold a.f. with "Jay ... I wasn't extending an invitation" (or to that effect)

I honestly thought a beatdown was coming seconds later but instead, they worked out a 5v5 match.

The only one of the ten participants who didn't do the handshake both before & after was actually Dalton Castle (who had just taken the pin, he was fine pre-match but exited stage left very quickly after the loss). And that felt like it might have some meaning as well.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Aaaaand the lineups for the next NJPW shows in the U.S. are revealed ... and it's considerably worse than even my low expectations.

The only non-Gaijin talent? The Great-O-Khan (i.e. the comically bad gimmick they've saddled excursion guy Tomo Oka with). The only Japan based guys are Killer Elite Squad (Archer & Smith) and Rocky Romero.

So out of 20 workers:
3 NJPW LA Dojo guys
1 young lion on excursion
2 stiffs nobody gives two fucks about
1 guy who spent the past year working as an announcer not a wrestler
1 apparently local NC Talent (last references I find to him are 2016 in NC)
and 12 guys who worked either the ROH TV Taping and/or the Supercard of Honor Show (that was also held nearby in NC)

Will decide our plans with the kid tomorrow but right now the strong lean is to try to dump these tickets on the aftermarket for whatever we can manage to get for them & maybe just replace his planned trip (600+ miles each way) with one of the two shows (Mexican promoted indy or Evolve) coming up in Atlanta in February.

Certainly not seeing the point in adding an Athens-to-Charlotte leg of the trip for him, not when we just saw Ring of Honor two weeks ago & have no need to see Ring of New Japan repeat the same show.

Also, Meltzer is promising "details" (or an explanation) of the card tomorrow, my prediction is that the government shutdown will -- accurately or not -- be blamed for the lack of traveling performers. That would even fit with Oka being on the show since he was working on his paperwork for the U.S. months ago before he ever headed out on excursion.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Well, our $50 each tix for Charlotte are StubHub listed for $41 each. Let's see if that gets a bite.

We're definitely not making the drive for it now so any recovery beats none.

[murrayyyyy]

I know it wasn't in the Tokyo Dome but Ricochet-Gargano has to be 5*'s.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

I know it wasn't in the Tokyo Dome but Ricochet-Gargano has to be 5*'s.

I haven't seen it yet but my kid msgd me after and said "it was everything it needed to be and more, a must watch"

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I haven't seen it yet but my kid msgd me after and said "it was everything it needed to be and more, a must watch"

It hits all the things you need with the moves, story being told, etc.

It's easy to have a match like that when you don't wrestle 5 times a week but sometimes you have to wonder how it can be the same company.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

It's easy to have a match like that when you don't wrestle 5 times a week but sometimes you have to wonder how it can be the same company.

It's a fair question, though I think you also have to ask whether it even IS the same company, effectively anyway.

But then again maybe it is. That could explain why he described Riddle vs Ohno as being something like "fine, but less than it could have been". I pointed out how that phrase describes about 75% (or more) of their matches, even in NXT.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

It's a fair question, though I think you also have to ask whether it even IS the same company, effectively anyway.

But then again maybe it is. That could explain why he described Riddle vs Ohno as being something like "fine, but less than it could have been". I pointed out how that phrase describes about 75% (or more) of their matches, even in NXT.

You've seen Riddle more than I have but there doesn't seem to be much to him minus "I'm a MMA dude". Ohno is the NXT version of the Brooklyn Brawler so I'm not sure I've ever like one of his NXT matches.

I just don't understand how one of your big 4 PPVs has a match like that on it and doesn't have Cole or Dream on it... unless more call-ups happen today.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

You've seen Riddle more than I have but there doesn't seem to be much to him minus "I'm a MMA dude". Ohno is the NXT version of the Brooklyn Brawler so I'm not sure I've ever like one of his NXT matches.

I just don't understand how one of your big 4 PPVs has a match like that on it and doesn't have Cole or Dream on it... unless more call-ups happen today.

Watching Riddle gutwrench suplex Walter a couple years back was good enough for me lol. He's not the most threatening looking guy in the world but when he works stiff - and pretty much all his matches get there eventually - it's solid strong-style.

Ohno is NXT is a good example of me being happy a guy is getting a steady paycheck.

Trips addressed the absence of both guys, and honestly it kinda makes sense to me. Basically that they're so deep right now that everybody can't work every show, plus they're trying to avoid rushing Dream. In the context of where creative was going into Phoenix it made reasonable sense to not throw something together just to get them into a match (and Dream got a minute of spotlight, plus the article notes that they had something more elaborate planned for his arrival last night but that it didn't pan out).

Plus, there's a lot of factions of fans to satisfy. I'm at least equally interested in seeing Riddle's development in a WWE context as I am in seeing Dream when he (like Cole) is kinda between stories at the moment.

edit to add: Plus Dream & Cole were both involved in the tapings of that War of the Worlds/World Cup/Whatevertheycalledit tournament deal.

[Carman Bulldog]

Plus they're both in next week's Halftime Heat, which I guess also sort of makes up for it.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Random twitter question I saw

Is Jeff Jarrett the only person to have appeared on Wrestlemania, Starcade, Wrestle Kingdom and Triplemania?

[JonInMiddleGA]

And while I'm feelin' all hmmmm and shit ... when Alex Shelley announced his retirement last summer at the end of his ROH contract, the story was that he was going to focus on school (i.e. college) full time now.

My hmmmm is that
a) college doesn't last forever
b) Kushida, his Timesplitter partner, likely inbound to NXT soon as visas can get processed
c) Abyss & Sonjay Dutt just joined Jeremy Borash backstage at the Performance Center
so d) Could we see Shelley take a backstage role at the PC sometime over the next year?

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Random twitter question I saw

Is Jeff Jarrett the only person to have appeared on Wrestlemania, Starcade, Wrestle Kingdom and Triplemania?

off the top of my head would be the question of Jericho at Triplemania. Think he did the others.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

off the top of my head would be the question of Jericho at Triplemania. Think he did the others.

My thought was Rey Jr, but he didn't make it to WK.

[RainMaker]

I was thinking Rey too. Didn't Eddy perform in all 4? He had a run in NJPW if I'm correct.

Did Liger ever perform at Wrestlemania?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I was thinking Rey too. Didn't Eddy perform in all 4? He had a run in NJPW if I'm correct.

Did Liger ever perform at Wrestlemania?

Eddy was in NJPW 93 - 96, but the first WK wasn't held until 2007.

Wiki says Liger worked the 1990 Wrestling Summit in Tokyo (a WWE/NJPW co-brand) and a 2015 Takeover (vs Tyler Breeze), but no mention of a WM.

[JonInMiddleGA]

follow up: Our tickets to NJPW / Charlotte finally sold, managed to get $20 each for those $50 each tickets

Meanwhile, our change in plans will find us in the suburbs of the ATL tonight for a one-off show at the Espacio Discotheque.

SCU, The Lucha Bros Pentagon JR and Rey Fenix ,Mil Muertes, Simon Grimm, MJF, "All Ego" Ethan Page, Ricky Starks, Matt Cross, Eli Everfly, Deliliah Doom, Penelope Ford, The Besties in the World Davey Vega and Matt Fitchet, Joey Ryan, Kikutaro, Kris Wolf and much much more!

The show is apparently due to be aired on Fite TV and Young Bucks & Cody have been making social media noise all week that seems to virtually guarantee a full AEW appearance.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Damned cool show in ATL, with the news of the night being the official offer of AEW contracts to Fenix & Pentagon, Jr.

And in da house -- to varying degrees of usefulness honestly -- Ken Shamrock, Glacier, The Yeti (yes, Ron Reis), and Tony Schiavone.

REALLY well done event, smooth as silk as a paying customer with a super laid back vibe as workers were kinda wandering around the house before the show (and some during as well). For a one-off in an irregular venue, it was first rate.

[Flasch186]

So a pretty strong acquaintance is high up in running the new AEW and hopefully I'm her +1 to a bunch of stuff

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Damned cool show in ATL, with the news of the night being the official offer of AEW contracts to Fenix & Pentagon, Jr.

And in da house -- to varying degrees of usefulness honestly -- Ken Shamrock, Glacier, The Yeti (yes, Ron Reis), and Tony Schiavone.

REALLY well done event, smooth as silk as a paying customer with a super laid back vibe as workers were kinda wandering around the house before the show (and some during as well). For a one-off in an irregular venue, it was first rate.

How was Pentagon Jr in person?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

How was Pentagon Jr in person?

Worked fine for me. Felt pretty legit as a main eventer. Fenix not so much so.

The crowd dynamic was pretty interesting in at least one respect. I just saw Bandido at the ROH TV taping and he was - by far - the most over guy in the building ... with everybody. Whether you were wearing Elite merch, NJPW merch, or ROH merch, Bandido was THE guy.

On Saturday the crowd was ethnically split between Lucha Bros & SCU. And I'm not sure that the loudest Penta fans weren't every bit as much into Mil Muertes.

I just thought that was interesting, not entirely sure how to interpret it. May be nothing more than Sat show having a much higher number of fans who watch AAA/CMLL than the ROH taping had, but it was really noticeable.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Rest in peace

CANOE -- SLAM! Sports - Wrestling - Les Thornton dead at 84

[molson]

Damn, I didn't know he was in his 50s when he had the "elite jobber" role for the WWF in the mid 80s.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Halftime Heat was predictable in both structure & outcome but damned if you'll see six better wrestlers in a North American ring together.

Props NXT.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Halftime Heat was predictable in both structure & outcome but damned if you'll see six better wrestlers in a North American ring together.

Props NXT.

Been meaning to ask if you like Ricochet. Part of me finds him incredibly entertaining but a part of me also thinks he goes a little overboard with the stunts.

I've become a huge fan of Velveteen Dream. Just think he did an amazing job with that gimmick. Can work as a heel or face. Still a bit young in the ring and needs some more time, but he's crazy athletic and has a lot of the nuances down.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Been meaning to ask if you like Ricochet. Part of me finds him incredibly entertaining but a part of me also thinks he goes a little overboard with the stunts.

I've become a huge fan of Velveteen Dream. Just think he did an amazing job with that gimmick. Can work as a heel or face. Still a bit young in the ring and needs some more time, but he's crazy athletic and has a lot of the nuances down.

I like Ricochet okay, I'm not sure my feelings about him ever really recovered from the (in)famous match with Ospreay. At the time of that match the only thing that salvaged my feelings towards him was the fact that I knew he could & would sell for people (something that Ospreay is only really learning to do in recent months)

Dream has a 100% heel character to me, so in a weird way that makes what he's done getting it over / getting over with it even more remarkable to me.

He's one of quite a few guys that sort of highlight the issues with making faces these days, you're almost forced to work some natural heels as faces just to balance the roster (Pete Dunne probably the most natural heel I've seen in many years, and yet ... )

[JonInMiddleGA]

Watched the latest episode of BTE ("Handshake Agreement") and couldn't help but chuckle at not being shown in it.

If you watch the video, during the Bucks/Lucha Bros segment about halfway through, you'll see a guy wearing a white Falcons jersey with his back to the camera numerous times. If he was sitting in seat 8, then we were in seat 1-2 to his left. The camera angle caught seats 3-8 lol.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I like Ricochet okay, I'm not sure my feelings about him ever really recovered from the (in)famous match with Ospreay. At the time of that match the only thing that salvaged my feelings towards him was the fact that I knew he could & would sell for people (something that Ospreay is only really learning to do in recent months)

Dream has a 100% heel character to me, so in a weird way that makes what he's done getting it over / getting over with it even more remarkable to me.

He's one of quite a few guys that sort of highlight the issues with making faces these days, you're almost forced to work some natural heels as faces just to balance the roster (Pete Dunne probably the most natural heel I've seen in many years, and yet ... )

Yeah, I think he's a natural heel. Problem is that he can be so good at it that they cheer you (like with Dunne). I mean this entrance screams great heel.



I do wonder if they'd be better off dropping the overt heel/face stuff for a lot of the wrestlers. Is it a problem if Pete Dunne is just himself and people can choose to cheer or boo? Does he need to come out and insult the local sports team? Watching NXT, ROH, and some of the indy stuff floating around, it seems people just like to watch good wrestling with personalities they enjoy.

Its kind of why so many wrestlers flop from NXT coming to the main roster. These guys who worked in the gray areas between face and heel suddenly have to go over the top in one direction.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Watching NXT, ROH, and some of the indy stuff floating around, it seems people just like to watch good wrestling with personalities they enjoy.

Those audiences probably aren't enough to justify huge megaexpenses however (relative to what WWE spends on the main brands).

The IWC will watch -- hell, I've cheered good heels for most of two decades now -- but without the traditional marks there's almost certainly a lower ceiling on your product.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Jimmy Havoc Joins All Elite Wrestling - Cultaholic

[RainMaker]

They need to get rights to his AFI theme.

[albionmoonlight]

I'm far from the first person to note this, but seeing LaVar Ball back in the news made me remember--he could be a fantastic heel manager if he ever decides to go that route.

[Flasch186]

My friend gave me this today




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

My friend gave me this today

Which is a better premium than what Bethesda gave people who paid for pre-orders

[JonInMiddleGA]

And the newest executive vice president of All Elite Wrestling is ... Kenny Omega.

[Flasch186]

Now if only they get Dalton Castle

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

And the newest executive vice president of All Elite Wrestling is ... Kenny Omega.

I'm guessing he is getting a piece of the company?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I'm guessing he is getting a piece of the company?

Meltzer says no (fwiw obviously)

[RainMaker]

Aldis vs Scurll for the NWA title at the Crockett Cup.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Aldis vs Scurll for the NWA title at the Crockett Cup.

Wonder how Marty will be without the club.

Got my promo code for the AEW event so I'll see how messed up AXS is trying to get tickets in a little bit as I remember the horrors of Golden Knights tickets when they dropped on AXS.