Pro Wrestling Discussion Thread **Spoilers Possible**

[JonInMiddleGA]

I didn't know this was gonna be a thing

Velasquez took part in a news conference Tuesday to announce he's taking part in Mexican promotion AAA's annual TripleMania supershow on Aug. 3.

The 36-year-old Velasquez, who is still under UFC contract and most recently lost to Francis Ngannou in mid-February, is scheduled to appear in a TripleMania match against an opponent still to be determined. At Tuesday's news conference, Velasquez went face-to-face with three of AAA's biggest names -- Psycho Clown, Texano Jr., and Pentagon Jr.

Former UFC heavyweight champion Cain Velasquez set for pro wrestling debut

[PilotMan]

Probably a good way for him to earn some money. His MMA career is probably over, at least as a main even, title contending, money earner. He can't stay healthy and honestly, as quick as he went down in his last fight, I was surprised he didn't retire then. I can't see him making MMA money in wrestling either, but he is like Lesnar in the way that he is a freak physical athlete and I'm guessing he can learn the ropes pretty quick.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I didn't know this was gonna be a thing



Former UFC heavyweight champion Cain Velasquez set for pro wrestling debut

Forget where I heard he had been training for it for a while. Wrestled at Arizona State. Think it was a Jack Swagger interview before he had his MMA debut.

[molson]

He's trained at the WWE performance center before. It wasn't clear if that was real training or kind of a fantasy camp thing they let him do (especially since this was around when they got their new TV deal and apparentlys tarted courting his buddy Daniel Cormier to announce Smackdown when it moves to Fox).

Two-time UFC Heavyweight Champion Cain Velasquez trains at WWE Performance Center | WWE

I don't think he has the charisma or a celebrity level that would interest the WWE at his age, but AAA seems perfect.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by molson

He's trained at the WWE performance center before. It wasn't clear if that was real training or kind of a fantasy camp thing they let him do (especially since this was around when they got their new TV deal and apparentlys tarted courting his buddy Daniel Cormier to announce Smackdown when it moves to Fox).

Two-time UFC Heavyweight Champion Cain Velasquez trains at WWE Performance Center | WWE

I don't think he has the charisma or a celebrity level that would interest the WWE at his age, but AAA seems perfect.

I'm not sure they care about any of that in the WWE anymore. If you can get them publicity (former MMA guy being put on Smackdown on FOX) then the WWE will sign you. If McGregor didn't have this rape case out there I bet he would be at Mania.

[molson]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

I'm not sure they care about any of that in the WWE anymore. If you can get them publicity (former MMA guy being put on Smackdown on FOX) then the WWE will sign you. If McGregor didn't have this rape case out there I bet he would be at Mania.

McGregor sure, but Cain is not famous and not charismatic. I don't think the WWE is in the market for random MMA stars who don't have either of those two things (unless they're friends with Romda Rousey.)

[Neon_Chaos]

WWE: Last Week Tonight with John Oliver (HBO) - YouTube

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

WWE: Last Week Tonight with John Oliver (HBO) - YouTube

I’m not usually a fan of Oliver, but that was amazing. Vince should be investigated. I would also say that he should be ashamed of himself, but I doubt he feels emotions like that of other humans. I hope that when he drops dead, Shane, Levesque and Stephanie aren’t nearly this bad.

[Flasch186]

AEW is putting together a great roster and have the bankroll to make an enormous competitive product.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

AEW is putting together a great roster and have the bankroll to make an enormous competitive product.

And I see a promotion building a roster around the Hogan model of "hire all my friends" and am wondering whether it even lasts as long as the AAF.

The hiring of Jim Ross for an (eventual) on-air role pretty much removed any hope I had left for them to produce a product that was even watchable.

His work (and I use the term loosely since he barely appear to even be bothering to try) for NJPW is among the most pathetic shit I've ever heard.

[JonInMiddleGA]

On a positive note, I was thinking yesterday how the evolution of WM into what amount to a gigantic industry-wide event is maybe the best thing for wrestling fans (at least those who aren't single-company followers) as a whole in decades.

The amount of product this week is insane, and everybody brings out their best.

[molson]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

The amount of product this week is insane, and everybody brings out their best.

It's a little big so I'll spoil tag it, but here's a partial rundown of the events - which we're already two days into.

Including the Penis Party at the midtown Hilton in Manhattan on Friday night. Which I assume has something to do with Joey Ryan.

I want to find the blog of the guy who's going to try to go to 15+ of these, I'm sure he's out there.

Spoiler

[CU Tiger]

And that doesnt even include whatever podcst/fanfest/meet and greet that Conrad Thompson is doing among others

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

Including the Penis Party at the midtown Hilton in Manhattan on Friday night. Which I assume has something to do with Joey Ryan.

We can only hope lol

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

And I see a promotion building a roster around the Hogan model of "hire all my friends" and am wondering whether it even lasts as long as the AAF.

The hiring of Jim Ross for an (eventual) on-air role pretty much removed any hope I had left for them to produce a product that was even watchable.

His work (and I use the term loosely since he barely appear to even be bothering to try) for NJPW is among the most pathetic shit I've ever heard.

I totally disagree. I think that there are a ton of guys my age that remember the WWF model before it veered off and I understand that you, with a ton of knowledge (perhaps too much to be objective), are forgetting that a lot of the 'fans' are wanting to go back to the day that WWF veered Right and see what happens had they veered left. This is that moment. I can tell you from being fairly close to the orbit of a few people in it and I mean not very close at all but closer than I am to Connecticut, they intend very much to make this thing about the Roster and treating the participants right which should attract a TON of talent... and they have.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

I totally disagree. I think that there are a ton of guys my age that remember the WWF model before it veered off and I understand that you, with a ton of knowledge (perhaps too much to be objective), are forgetting that a lot of the 'fans' are wanting to go back to the day that WWF veered Right and see what happens had they veered left. This is that moment. I can tell you from being fairly close to the orbit of a few people in it and I mean not very close at all but closer than I am to Connecticut, they intend very much to make this thing about the Roster and treating the participants right which should attract a TON of talent... and they have.

The top end of their roster is solid, if still a little thin. The rest, well ...

That's the #2 thing that gives me considerable pause.

The #1 thing that has me doubting from day zero is the absence of anyone that has shown an ability to book a reservation, much less an actual promotion.

And then the J.R. thing, that pretty much does me in with them before they ever get a TV deal. I'd have been entirely on board with him as an office presence but I'm honestly not sure you could have picked someone less suited for anything on-air than him. (I actually debated back & forth whether he's more lost or if Tony S. would be more lost). He's literally unwatchable for me with anything outside the narrow band of WWE product. I've suffered through that, I gave it a shot, I went looking for Japanese commentary ... and I don't speak Japanese.

Hey, it's cool though. There's already more hours of wrestling out there than me (or anybody) could possibly watch. They seem to have several agendas, none of which have anything to do with providing an entertaining product.
I hate losing a few people from the rotation - even if one IS a guy that I believe is legitimately in the best-all-around-in-the-world-today discussion - but I'll live.

[molson]

Loaded indy shows have been a thing for a while. They can draw well. I'm curious to see how AEW tries to go beyond that and attract fans who aren't familiar with their stars and that style of wrestling promotion.

One thing the WWE has has always done pretty well is be accessible to children and other new fans. But I'm not sure if even the greatest indy-show in history could create new wrestling fans, or even bring in lapsed WWE-only fans to the extent they can be a player on cable TV or on demand, or whatever the plan is.

I also do wonder about the dynamic of a wrestling promotion that consists of close friends regulary wrestling each other over and over again in the main events

[Flasch186]

Literally, some of the biggest moments in my Wrestling history memory are with JR commentating. I would doubt that the GREAT majority of fans who pay a lot of $ (again, not the Jon's who know a lot more which colors things too thickly to enjoy at times) wouldn't find hearing JR's voice lending immediate credibility to the product and storylines AND that's not mentioning the front office knowledge he brings to the table. IMO you aren't in touch with the LARGE mark(et) available to them.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by molson

Loaded indy shows have been a thing for a while. They can draw well. I'm curious to see how AEW tries to go beyond that and attract fans who aren't familiar with their stars and that style of wrestling promotion.

One thing the WWE has has always done pretty well is be accessible to children and other new fans. But I'm not sure if even the greatest indy-show in history could create new wrestling fans, or even bring in lapsed WWE-only fans to the extent they can be a player on cable TV or on demand, or whatever the plan is.

I also do wonder about the dynamic of a wrestling promotion that consists of close friends regulary wrestling each other over and over again in the main events

Right now AEW is "cool", and that seems to mean quite a bit. That's the kind of event you tell your friends about, or you convince them to come with you. It doesn't even need to be that good, because cool overrides most everything, for a while at least. But this is the first product other than the WWE that has reached that status in years. Maybe PWG, in a niche kinda way.

Now it's taking that and building a long term product, which will define AEW's legacy.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

IMO you aren't in touch with the LARGE mark(et) available to them.

We disagree completely on how big their potential audience is, absolutely.
1/10th to 1/2 of what Smackdown pulls is the absolutely max I can imagine them doing regardless of network.

Once the first month - if that long - wears off I see them settling into TNA'esque peak ratings at the absolute most. And that was before they hired a completely overmatched J.R. who will drive away some of the very viewers that are the core audience.

Lose your core AND draw no meaningful replacement? Yeah, that'll end well.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Is anybody going to top Cole v Gargano this weekend?

I got a txt from my son, he said he hadn't marked like that since he was about 6. Called it the probably the best match on U.S. soil since Flair / Steamboat.

Now lest you think that's youthful exuberance talking, considered this from Dave Scherer (who is well past 'youth'):

I am not one, after decades of following the business, to say, "That was the best match I ever saw" but if you were to say to me that @JohnnyGargano and @AdamColePro just had the best match you ever saw, I would not argue with you. That was perfection.

[Carman Bulldog]

Ugh... I fell behind on NXT a long time ago, both the specials and the weekly show. The last one I watched was probably NXT TakeOver: Dallas but in 2016.

I still foolishly am paying for the Network but have considered cutting that cost (I do watch the occasional nostalgia PPV's).

But, if I wanted to to pickup NXT again, do I just need to watch the TakeOver specials? I'm tempted to go back all the way to the start of the TakeOver's, just because they're so good and it's been awhile.

Is there anything from the weekly shows that I would be missing though?

[Maple Leafs]

I don't follow NXT and only vaguely know who's who, but I ended up watching the Cole/Gargano match and holy crap was that ever good.

It's amazing how much fun a near-fall can be if you actually build to it like a believable finish, instead of just having Cena or Lesnar or whoever spam their finisher ten minutes in and then look shocked (SHOCKED) that somebody kicked out.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Carman Bulldog

Is there anything from the weekly shows that I would be missing though?

TV does move the plot along albeit fairly slowly (only so much you can do with little time). You'd miss an occasional notable match but not very many.

I think they have short NXT weekly recaps on YouTube, you could definitely skim those before any Takeover viewing and be totally fine. And short of that, if you skimmed the 'net for something like "Takeover: CityName Preview" and found one like the CBS caliber ones while avoiding getting spoilered then you'd be fully fine as well.

IMO they haven't had a lot of stories that can't be told in recaps honestly, though the breakup of DIY is certainly an exception.

edit to add: that's not to say that you couldn't just watch Takeovers and enjoy them, the work is pretty consistently solid. I was just thinking about optimizing them.

[SirFozzie]

man, I've never seen polarizing views like the main event. One of the boards I hang out at considered the event the pinnacle of WWE overbooking main event style (not a compliment) while loving the brutality and impact of the Dunne-WALTER match.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

man, I've never seen polarizing views like the main event. One of the boards I hang out at considered the event the pinnacle of WWE overbooking main event style (not a compliment) while loving the brutality and impact of the Dunne-WALTER match.

Huge fan of Dunne, huge fan of Walter, but most sources (that I trust & know my agreement level with) seem to feel like that match underachieved. Not that it was bad, just underwhelming for the potential on paper. My kid rated it below the tag opener which was definitely not what we would have expected.

*I was shanghaied for a volunteer gig with my wife last night& have yet to see the show myself beyond clips.

edit to add: given the situation, anybody that considered the main overbooked is probably better suited for MMA shows than pro wrestling. OR didn't follow the journey that made all the booking make sense. They overbook tons of stuff, this simply was not in any way an example of that. (example: the run in is a fail if the outcome is different, it's totally acceptable because of the eventual outcome)

[molson]

Dumbass fan tackles Bret Hart during his Hart Foundation induction speech.

Streamja - Simple video sharing

He was fine and continued his speech after the melee died down.

There's a bunch of other videos from fans showing what happened when the WWE cameras cut away. It looked like Travis Brown and Dash Wilder got some punches in.

Here's footage of the actual tackle and aftermath. Looks like Travis Brown and Shane McMahon got there first, and Titus Young just missed getting him before he got in the ring. Reddit thinks Harry Smith is the guy in the gold pants.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bv7yV9ED...=13t7a4uonh5j0

[JonInMiddleGA]

Is Harry Smith supposed to be the one Big Show (?) stops from throwing punches as the guy is pulled under the ropes?

[JonInMiddleGA]

And then in the middle of a fairly stacked card/show in their biggest stage ever, ROH does ... this (?)

Report: Enzo Amore & Big Cass' Ring of Honor Invasion Is 'A Work' - Wrestlezone

[molson]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Is Harry Smith supposed to be the one Big Show (?) stops from throwing punches as the guy is pulled under the ropes?

I think that's Travis Browne reaching over Harry Smith to get some last punches in himself.

[SirFozzie]

So, ROH had Big Cass and Enzo Amore "invade" on a likely worked shoot, brought in Impact's the Beautiful People, and now Matt Taven is their champion. They're actually seeing if smarks will riot I think

[Toddzilla]

Damn, Rockstar Spud got some wheels...

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

So, ROH had Big Cass and Enzo Amore "invade" on a likely worked shoot, brought in Impact's the Beautiful People, and now Matt Taven is their champion. They're actually seeing if smarks will riot I think

And let's have Jay Lethal hit somebody with a ladder, just for good measure (j/k, shit happens)

If ever there's a night that provokes headscratching about NJPW decision to double down on their alignment with ROH, tonight might be the one.

The report that the invasion was over the objection of the booking committee and was ordered by ownership is the most believable thing I've read all night. That's so completely Sinclair-like I can't even begin. They make EA look like the greatest (and smartest, and most consumer-friendly) company on the planet by comparison.

edit: my experiences with Sinclair are with the TV-side, not the wrestling-side specifically but everything I've ever heard about that part of the business fits entirely

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

And then the J.R. thing, that pretty much does me in with them before they ever get a TV deal. I'd have been entirely on board with him as an office presence but I'm honestly not sure you could have picked someone less suited for anything on-air than him. (I actually debated back & forth whether he's more lost or if Tony S. would be more lost). He's literally unwatchable for me with anything outside the narrow band of WWE product. I've suffered through that, I gave it a shot, I went looking for Japanese commentary ... and I don't speak Japanese.

Having JR as one of the first announcers I remember during Mid-South as a kid and then seeing his peak with Jerry (IMO), it's time for him to retire. It's almost like trying to imagine whatever NFL crew you liked (let's say Madden and Summerall) and then comparing it to what Romo is doing. You realize that maybe it wasn't so good back then and wouldn't be remotely good now.

I'd rather have JR as a memory than trying to put over AEW.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by Carman Bulldog

Ugh... I fell behind on NXT a long time ago, both the specials and the weekly show. The last one I watched was probably NXT TakeOver: Dallas but in 2016.

I still foolishly am paying for the Network but have considered cutting that cost (I do watch the occasional nostalgia PPV's).

But, if I wanted to to pickup NXT again, do I just need to watch the TakeOver specials? I'm tempted to go back all the way to the start of the TakeOver's, just because they're so good and it's been awhile.

Is there anything from the weekly shows that I would be missing though?

I only watch the specials and can keep up with NXT. They do a great job recapping everything before the matches instead of watching the shows in which they may have built up the storyline twice before the PPV with tapings all done at once.

[SirFozzie]

Think that Shane won the battle, but uh.. lost the war.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Lots of fan service seems to be the rule for WM this year ... but maybe that's okay considering what they put fans through all year.

[SirFozzie]

Better than the Fan Disservice from ROH this weekend.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Better than the Fan Disservice from ROH this weekend.

I was encouraged by Meltzer's reply to a question about whether this could lead to a slowing of the NJPW/ROH relationship: "not yet"

After this weekend, honestly, I see very little good left in it for NJPW so moving away from it would be a plus.

edit for clarity: I took "not yet" as a sign that the door is at least open at this point. Hence my being optimistic about it.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Line of the night thus far via Cultaholic


If Batista were wrestling the middle rope, and the rope's career on the line, you could safely bet on the rope to be in action tomorrow. #wrestlemania35

[SirFozzie]

this is old school garbage match main event WWE style.

[JonInMiddleGA]

All that build, all that fan service ... and it ends up with either a botched finish or a faux botched finish.

Srsly?

[SirFozzie]

Honestly, it's time they made Wrestlemania a 2 day spectacle. It's the only way they're going to get everyone on the show these days.

Also, are we seeing the brandsplit ending? One woman hold both singles titles, one tag team holds the women's tag titles.. Not like Raw's tag team division is worth much..

[jbergey22]

Kofi/Daniel Bryan was an incredible match. Bryan as a heel is money. Wasnt a fan of the numerous 3 way/4 way matches tonight. They are so dumb as 1 or 2 participants have to sit outside the ring and sell for 3-5 minutes at a time to keep 1 on 1 action in the ring.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Honestly, it's time they made Wrestlemania a 2 day spectacle. It's the only way they're going to get everyone on the show these days.

Also, are we seeing the brandsplit ending? One woman hold both singles titles, one tag team holds the women's tag titles.. Not like Raw's tag team division is worth much..

I've seen it pointed out that Stephanie has avoided careful avoided the phrase "unified title" so the current working guess seems to be that the champ will defend the titles separately indefinitely.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Honestly, it's time they made Wrestlemania a 2 day spectacle. It's the only way they're going to get everyone on the show these days.

They've definitely hit the tipping point on length. Even people getting paid to watch this were ready for it to end.

With the Network in place, really no good reason not to break it up at this point. Slightly smaller venue X double ticket sales would make it add up too.

[jbergey22]

Out of the 5 and half hours main show tonight. Actual in ring time was less than 2 hours and 20 minutes.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Out of the 5 and half hours main show tonight. Actual in ring time was less than 2 hours and 20 minutes.

Borrowing a tweet to kick into my thought

@davidyblair
Replying to @bryanalvarez
There has to be a real discussion about two days. This is absolutely insane at this point.

@byranalvarez
No, the solution is less matches and a shorter show.

But then I look at the card. The only matches that didn't really belong on the show were Angle / Corbin (though a pass is easily given for Angle's departure), HHH / Batista and Shane/Miz.

Everything else, at least in some configuration, was worthy (via title or competitor caliber) AND the CW title match could have easily replaced on of those, as could a Raw tag title match. And that's without even counting the number of NXT pairings that are WM worthy as well.

So I'm not sure how realistic "less matches" as a solution really is. The roster is still enormous, and whether it's used properly or not there is still a lot of WM caliber talent on hand.

And if Wrestle Kingdom has fan expectations about grandiose entrances then I'm not sure you could trim those entirely from Mania either. As currently constituted I think 2-day event is what they have to start looking toward.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Borrowing a tweet to kick into my thought



But then I look at the card. The only matches that didn't really belong on the show were Angle / Corbin (though a pass is easily given for Angle's departure), HHH / Batista and Shane/Miz.

Everything else, at least in some configuration, was worthy (via title or competitor caliber) AND the CW title match could have easily replaced on of those, as could a Raw tag title match. And that's without even counting the number of NXT pairings that are WM worthy as well.

So I'm not sure how realistic "less matches" as a solution really is. The roster is still enormous, and whether it's used properly or not there is still a lot of WM caliber talent on hand.

And if Wrestle Kingdom has fan expectations about grandiose entrances then I'm not sure you could trim those entirely from Mania either. As currently constituted I think 2-day event is what they have to start looking toward.

I think it goes against Vince's idea of what Wrestlemania is though. His original idea was a 1 day event like the Super Bowl. I think the 2 day idea would be fantastic personally. They have more than enough talent to provide 2 main event matches for the weekend.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I've seen it pointed out that Stephanie has avoided careful avoided the phrase "unified title" so the current working guess seems to be that the champ will defend the titles separately indefinitely.

Just too many titles in WWE. The Universal Championship probably has prestige because getting off Lesnar was a big deal but the other belts seem like meaningless props at this point.

1 WWE Mens
1 Womens
1 Tag Team
1 Mid/Upper Mid Mens Title is all they need.

Cruiserweight can have a yearly tournament and work off that angle.

I dont think any other titles add any value to the matches the way they are treated these days.