The Biden Presidency - 2020

[Edward64]

I think the clear cut winners are the Asian American kids, specifically the really smart ones.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/supreme...orth-carolina/

The Supreme Court on Thursday ruled that race-conscious admission policies of Harvard College and the University of North Carolina violate the Constitution, bringing an end to affirmative action in higher education in a decision that will reverberate across campuses nationwide.

The court ruled 6-3 along ideological lines in the University of North Carolina case, and 6-2 in the Harvard dispute, as Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson recused.

In the Harvard case, the organization claimed the school's race-conscious admissions policies violated Title VI of the Civil Rights Act, which prohibits racial discrimination in any program or activity that receives federal funds, by discriminating against Asian-American applicants. Students for Fair Admissions accused Harvard of assigning Asian-American students lower ratings on personality traits than other races and limiting the number of Asian-American applicants it admits.

Ready for the Student Debt ruling now.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Yeah, I've always said that if people were forced to travel around the world for a bit, they'd come back and be overall grateful for what we have in the United States. People here only know what they know.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Galaril

Oh yeah. Remember the exchanges we had previously.

Let me know if you want to discuss. If not, np

[Lathum]

Fuck those black kids!

[NobodyHere]

Glad about the ruling. There are better ways of dealing with racism than with more racism.

[HerRealName]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Glad about the ruling. There are better ways of dealing with racism than with more racism.

Then why wasn't the legacy free pass removed?

[BYU 14]

My view on this, which is greatly shaped by coaching at inner city schools is, we need to prepare kids better for gaining entrance and competing for those academic schollies than we do now.

I would like to see the focus shift away from affirmative action for the sake of numbers, to getting more programs in place to identify and prepare these kids, so they go into the process on equal footing.

Funnel money to grants that allow kids a better stipend, if they have high academic achievement, to make college a more viable option. We have kids at the last school I coached at that passed on junior college and small college offers, which would have at least helped on tuition, because they had to work to help the family. These are kids that are not going to get an FBS or FCS offer and NIL money, so they take the path to make money quicker.

Speaking of athletics, the fact is more players/families from inner city/impoverished areas but way too many eggs in the athletic basket, when there is so much more money available for academic excellence. That's a mindset that needs to change and some of that needs to come from the home.

We need programs that allow underserved kids to do internships, if they reach certain academic marks, with large companies that open up not only careers, but opportunities to get tuition assistance down the road. This may seem like affirmative action to some, but it's not, because you are rewarding high achievers and opening doors some kids/families might not know they have, so you still have to work and earn it. I am in my companies MOSIAC group and I suggested they so something like this, everyone loved it, all on board, then crickets......

Ultimately the solution, at least to me, YMMV, is to address equality of opportunity before it gets to checking race boxes on a college app. And yes I know kids still have to qualify at the colleges they pursue, but the playing field is going to completely leveled with earlier intervention and innovation, not just holding on to the status quo because it is comfortable.

My rant/2 cents

I will add that I have no degree, but have progressed to a high level in my career, because I was a kid from a bad neighborhood that got a chance to show what he could do. I don't know if I would have gotten that back then if I was not white. So yeah, there was a place for affirmative action so kids that looked like me were not the only success story from my hood. But let's do things to eliminate the need for it.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by HerRealName

Then why wasn't the legacy free pass removed?

I'm all for it. Don't know if there's a lawsuit on it but love to be an attorney and sue. And not just the rich Ivy schools but also state universities.

And while I'm on that, I'd also sue universities to clawback some of the tuition payments for the students struggling with student debt. I don't understand why universities are not part of the debt relief solution. I get not all of it or even most of it, but certainly some of it.

[NobodyHere]

What grounds are there to sue universities for tuition payments?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

What grounds are there to sue universities for tuition payments?

Beats me, but this sounds promising.

5 higher education lawsuits to watch in 2023 | Higher Ed Dive

Legal challenges have also stemmed from controversial borrower defense to repayment regulations, which allow students to have their debts cleared if their colleges misled them. And more lawsuits could be on the horizon as the Education Department implements an ambitious regulatory agenda that attempts to crack down on for-profit colleges and make it easier for borrowers to have their loans forgiven.

Maybe this also

https://www.opb.org/article/2022/07/...-loans-erased/

The lawsuit, Sweet v. Cardona, centers on a federal rule, known as borrower defense, that allows borrowers to ask the department to erase their student debts if a school has lied to them – about their job prospects, their credits' transferability or their likely salary after graduation.

Tens of thousands of borrowers who say they were ripped off, largely by for-profit colleges, have been in limbo, waiting years to have their claims reviewed. During the Trump administration, borrower advocates sued the department, arguing it deliberately and illegally stopped processing claims and wrongfully denied others without considering the merits of their cases.

[JPhillips]

People don't realize just how many high academic achievers apply to schools each year. My daughter's class is a good example, the valedictorian had a 1580 on the SAT and got waitlisted or rejected by every selective school he applied to except Georgia Tech. WHatever the bar is set to, there are just more applicants than their are spots for high academic achievers.

What became clear to me is that those schools want to see excellence in something besides just academics. Being involved is meaningless, but having something that is or could be national or global recognition is really important. You have to clear the academic bar, but that's the first, not the only hurdle.

I doubt this ruling changes the demo of selective school classes much at all.

[HerRealName]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

My rant/2 cents

I will add that I have no degree, but have progressed to a high level in my career, because I was a kid from a bad neighborhood that got a chance to show what he could do. I don't know if I would have gotten that back then if I was not white. So yeah, there was a place for affirmative action so kids that looked like me were not the only success story from my hood. But let's do things to eliminate the need for it.

I think most of us would have to look back and see where they've been given access to opportunities and see others that were given many more opportunities to their connections/nepotism. Meritocracy is a myth. The Supreme Court just protected their class.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by HerRealName

Then why wasn't the legacy free pass removed?

BTW, perfect timing

As Supreme Court strikes down affirmative action, the push to end legacy admissions may gain momentum

As Supreme Court guts affirmative action, what's next for legacy admissions? - MarketWatch

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

I would like to see the focus shift away from affirmative action for the sake of numbers, to getting more programs in place to identify and prepare these kids, so they go into the process on equal footing.

I think a lot of us would like that, but it's pretty apparent that one side doesn't want that (getting rid of the Dept. of Ed, school vouchers and the move to private/privatized schools).

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I think the clear cut winners are the Asian American kids, specifically the really smart ones.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/supreme...orth-carolina/



Ready for the Student Debt ruling now.

I know I give you a lot of shit but you have to admit that choosing a clear cut winner based on race in this case is problematic, no? I don't know if you are right or wrong. Just commenting on the wording given the context of the case and well if there is a winner in terms of race, then there must be a loser in terms of race.

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Glad about the ruling. There are better ways of dealing with racism than with more racism.

I say this with nothing but sincerity and will try to ask this without it coming off as snarky.

Couldn't we have found those better ways of dealing with racism against those who have and might have benefited from AA before resorting back to a system we know did not benefit those people? I was argue that finding those better ways is less of a concern now than it was before today's ruling.

[SirFozzie]

One thing I noted from the ruling is Roberts said something to the affect of that colleges can still take into account in applications.

"However, in an important caveat, Roberts left open the idea that schools could consider a candidate's discussion of how race affected their life, such as through discrimination."

Considering how opaque school admissions procedure is, I think that it's going to be very interesting to see how it turns into an unspoken factor, rather than a deciding factor.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

I know I give you a lot of shit but you have to admit that choosing a clear cut winner based on race in this case is problematic, no? I don't know if you are right or wrong. Just commenting on the wording given the context of the case and well if there is a winner in terms of race, then there must be a loser in terms of race.

The clear cut winner comment was based on below. The presumption of the lawsuit is that Asian kids were being discriminated against.

In the Harvard case, the organization claimed the school's race-conscious admissions policies violated Title VI of the Civil Rights Act, which prohibits racial discrimination in any program or activity that receives federal funds, by discriminating against Asian-American applicants. Students for Fair Admissions accused Harvard of assigning Asian-American students lower ratings on personality traits than other races and limiting the number of Asian-American applicants it admits.

If winner-loser is defined as # of kids/race enrolled, you are right there are losers also. Although not a pure zero sum game, the "pie" is fixed (or won't/can't scale as much as demand). So more for one "race" (winner) means less for other "races" (losers).

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

One thing I noted from the ruling is Roberts said something to the affect of that colleges can still take into account in applications.

"However, in an important caveat, Roberts left open the idea that schools could consider a candidate's discussion of how race affected their life, such as through discrimination."

Considering how opaque school admissions procedure is, I think that it's going to be very interesting to see how it turns into an unspoken factor, rather than a deciding factor.

I noticed that too. I think your bolded section is likely true in many cases.

[miami_fan]

I want to hear more specifics on these "potentially distinct interests" found in the service academies as opposed to the civilian schools. Are AAPI students not being denied admissions to the service academies? If not, how are the service academies accomplishing such a feat without getting rid of race based admissions? Seems like something that should be shared with the other schools to me.

Military Academies Exempt From SCOTUS Affirmative Action Ban

[SirFozzie]

The service academics require a member of Congress, doesn't it? Probably doesn't want to piss off the congresscritters

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

One thing I noted from the ruling is Roberts said something to the affect of that colleges can still take into account in applications.

"However, in an important caveat, Roberts left open the idea that schools could consider a candidate's discussion of how race affected their life, such as through discrimination."

Considering how opaque school admissions procedure is, I think that it's going to be very interesting to see how it turns into an unspoken factor, rather than a deciding factor.

I imagine there are many ways around this, some they already use. I have a feeling my son got into a highly competitive school because part of Williams admission consideration is based on how many students come from the area the applicant lives. Williams doesn't get very many students from this area which gave him a leg up. I imagine it would be pretty easy for Ivy league schools just start favoring students from underprivileged areas, which generally are minority areas as well.

[JPhillips]

Almost all of the selective schools have huge endowments. They should all be much larger institutions or face a crippling tax on their endowments. Harvard should be two or three times its current size.

The degree that it will dilute the quality will more than be made up for by expanding access.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Almost all of the selective schools have huge endowments. They should all be much larger institutions or face a crippling tax on their endowments. Harvard should be two or three times its current size.

The degree that it will dilute the quality will more than be made up for by expanding access.

You made me look, and the list of the largest endowments is interesting. Stanford actually has the highest, but Harvard is close behind. They both almost double Yale and Princeton. The most surprising one is Emory, that actually has an as large or larger endowment than several Ivy schools.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

You made me look, and the list of the largest endowments is interesting. Stanford actually has the highest, but Harvard is close behind. They both almost double Yale and Princeton. The most surprising one is Emory, that actually has an as large or larger endowment than several Ivy schools.

Emory got a gift of $100,000,000 in Coke stock (the largest ever at the time) right before Coke stock really took off.

It went from a good regional school to a national university pretty much overnight as a result.

[RainMaker]

Legacy admissions is not going anywhere. Tax-exempt status for private schools should absolutely be looked at.

People should read what Thomas wrote. Sort of implies he believes that black students should attend black schools and white kids should attend white schools.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Or if geography made us interact with other countries, like in Europe. But we're so big and only bordered by 2 countries, we don't really think about anyone else.

Probably the most shocking for me is that so many people speak 2-3 languages over there. It's just something they're taught at a young age. Everyone I worked with from Finland could speak 3 (Finnish, English, Russian).

I would say the other big shock was infrastructure. Outside of Heathrow, there is not a single European airport I've been to that was worse than any airport in America. Their transportation system just embarrasses us (especially in parts of Asia). I did the Guangzhou to Beijing train, which covers like half of China, and it was incredible. Come home to ride the L, which is considered very good by American standards and it's like 3rd world in comparison.

[Klinglerware]

I don't think the ruling will move the needle all that much, most of the preferential admits at Ivy League schools are tied to legacies and recruited athletes.

Honestly, when you have 20 applicants vying for one seat, with most having pretty similar credentials (both academic and extracurricular), I find it hard to believe you can make admission decisions on purely objective, let alone quantitative criteria.

[Klinglerware]

To be fair, I would add that this would be more of a big deal at schools where admissions are a little less competitive, and/or where Donor/Legacy/Athletic admits don't comprise such a large proportion of the student body.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Probably the most shocking for me is that so many people speak 2-3 languages over there. It's just something they're taught at a young age. Everyone I worked with from Finland could speak 3 (Finnish, English, Russian).

I would say the other big shock was infrastructure. Outside of Heathrow, there is not a single European airport I've been to that was worse than any airport in America. Their transportation system just embarrasses us (especially in parts of Asia). I did the Guangzhou to Beijing train, which covers like half of China, and it was incredible. Come home to ride the L, which is considered very good by American standards and it's like 3rd world in comparison.

My wifes sister lives in England and we visit relatively often. I have never driven a car there yet can get around easily anywhere we want to go. The rail system is amazing. Plus the names of the stations are awesome.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

. Come home to ride the L, which is considered very good by American standards and it's like 3rd world in comparison.

Wow, the L is easily the best mass transit system I have been on in the US, from comfort, convenience and timeliness. We have some train trips scheduled when we go to Italy later this year, so looking forward to them more than I was hearing this.

[GrantDawg]

White students make up about 40% of the enrollment in Havard. US population is about 75%.
Asians make up almost 30% of the enrollment at Harvard. They make up about 6% of the population in the US.

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Oh yeah. Remember the exchanges we had previously.

Let me know if you want to discuss. If not, np

Np. Will just agree to disagree, sir.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Galaril

Np. Will just agree to disagree, sir.

Appreciate the civil (and normal) pass.

[Edward64]

This is exciting. Hopefully, we'll have another Jackson personal diss of Thomas.

Within 24 hours, student loan borrowers are likely to learn the fate of the Biden administration’s debt forgiveness plan.

The Supreme Court is expected to issue its decision Friday, which could be the last day of its term before it breaks for summer recess.

[NobodyHere]

Definitely not a fan of this ruling:

Supreme Court injustice: ‘legal innocence’ is not enough | The Hill

Not sure how a guy can be in a jail for something that was found not to be a crime.

[JPhillips]

SCOTUS is taking a case for next year regarding domestic violence restraining orders and guns. I don't think they care much about being consistent, but I'm not sure how they can uphold these when gun laws ow need to be based on 18th-century mindsets.

[albionmoonlight]

Supreme Court (as expected) strikes down student loan relief.

And (as expected) leftist twitter is attacking Biden for "broken promises."

Not sure what they want him to do other than take the Army and, like, attack the Supreme Court building or something.

Attacks on Biden from the left are tiring.

[Edward64]

The expected result, so not a great surprise.

Biden has said no more extensions on the repayment pause. I read the pause was justified by the pandemic but now the pandemic is "over". If he wants, I'd think he can come up with some sort of reason for a new pause as repayments re-start in Sep.

Supreme Court blocks Biden's student loan forgiveness program | CNN Politics

Supreme Court rejects Biden’s student loan debt forgiveness plan

The US Supreme Court ruled that the Biden administration does not have the authority to cancel or reduce student loan debt.

In a stinging defeat for President Joe Biden, the Supreme Court blocked the administration’s student loan forgiveness plan Friday, rejecting a program aimed at delivering up to $20,000 of relief to millions of borrowers struggling with outstanding debt.

The decision was 6-3 with Chief Justice John Roberts writing for the conservative supermajority.

“The Secretary’s comprehensive debt cancellation plan cannot fairly be called a waiver – it not only nullifies existing provisions, but augments and expands them dramatically,” Roberts wrote. “However broad the meaning of ‘waive or modify,’ that language cannot authorize the kind of exhaustive rewriting of the statute that has taken place here.”

The White House sought to use the HEROES Act authority to waive the debt.

Roberts said the government needed direct authorization from Congress.

“The question here is not whether something should be done; it is who has the authority to do it.”

[Lathum]

If I am Biden and the Dems I absolutely blast the message for the next 14 months if you want student loan forgiveness the dems need to take back congress and hold the senate and the white house.

[molson]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Supreme Court (as expected) strikes down student loan relief.

And (as expected) leftist twitter is attacking Biden for "broken promises."

Not sure what they want him to do other than take the Army and, like, attack the Supreme Court building or something.

Attacks on Biden from the left are tiring.

Usually when some kind of policy or legal effort fails, like in a jury trial or appellate argument, those people will say that the lawyers rigged it to lose on purpose (for some reason).

There is this sentiment on the far left that you're committed enough, you can just do whatever you want. Same as the far right I guess.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

And (as expected) leftist twitter is attacking Biden for "broken promises."

I wonder how many really are "leftists" or how many are people on the right trying to cause divisiveness.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by molson

Usually when some kind of policy or legal effort fails, like in a jury trial or appellate argument, those people will say that the lawyers rigged it to lose on purpose (for some reason).

There is this sentiment on the far left that you're committed enough, you can just do whatever you want. Same as the far right I guess.

Yeah. The ole' "Bernie Sanders would just lock the GOP Congresspeople in a room and not let them leave until he convinced them to enact Medicare for All."

Oh. I had no idea it was that easy.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Attacks on Biden from the left are tiring.

I can see issues with some individual issues and topics with Biden, but overall, I don't see how anyone on the left could be disappointed. He's done a remarkable job as President considering the circumstances.

Student loan debt needs to be addressed, but this administration has done everything it can. If this is such an important issue then voters need to show up.

[GrantDawg]

Nothing is going to get done on something like that unless they can somehow get 60 Senators, and even then none can be a Manchin or a Sinema.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Nothing is going to get done on something like that unless they can somehow get 60 Senators, and even then none can be a Manchin or a Sinema.

You don't need to honor the weird filibuster rule. Republicans won't when they want something passed.

[RainMaker]

Do you guys know who one of the most prominent Senators was in 2005 who voted to gut bankruptcy protection on student loans which has led to this crisis? Like I get there isn't much he can do now but he's also largely responsible for the problem in the first place.

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

People don't realize just how many high academic achievers apply to schools each year. My daughter's class is a good example, the valedictorian had a 1580 on the SAT and got waitlisted or rejected by every selective school he applied to except Georgia Tech. WHatever the bar is set to, there are just more applicants than their are spots for high academic achievers.

What became clear to me is that those schools want to see excellence in something besides just academics. Being involved is meaningless, but having something that is or could be national or global recognition is really important. You have to clear the academic bar, but that's the first, not the only hurdle.

I doubt this ruling changes the demo of selective school classes much at all.

This.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Edward64

If he wants, I'd think he can come up with some sort of reason for a new pause as repayments re-start in Sep.

... and here's his solution.

I'm thinking its more of a "here's 12 more transition/months before you really have to start paying off student debt". He probably should have come up with a 20-24 month transition period for after elections. But a pretty good kick-the-can down the road.

"On-ramp" for resuming payments: Biden said his administration will also create a temporary 12-month "on-ramp repayment program," aimed at helping borrowers who will need to make difficult decisions when payments resume in October.

Rather than letting people slide into deeper financial trouble when they miss payments on the front end, Biden said the on-ramp will temporarily remove the threat of default or having a borrower's credit damaged for years to come.

"This is not the same as the student loan pause," Biden said. "Monthly payments will be due," bills will go out and interest will start accruing.

"If you can pay your monthly bills, you should," the president continued. But if you can't, the on-ramp will help prevent financial ruin.

The Department of Education won't refer borrowers with missed payments to credit agencies for 12 months "to give them a chance to get back up and running," Biden said.

Also ...

The president also announced that his administration will reduce the level of income-driven repayments from 10% to 5% of a borrower's disposable income. (Through this program, borrowers pay a fixed rate determined by their income for a set period of time, and are forgiven any remaining balance at the end of that period.)

If/when I have grandkids that need a student loans, I'm definitely going to tell them to go government route.

[miami_fan]

Huh?

Colorado web designer told Supreme Court a man sought her services for his same-sex wedding. He says he didn't -- and he's straight | CNN Politics

FOFC legal experts, please clarify.

Did the SCOTUS and all the courts below them just give an opinion on a case that was based on something akin to a What Would Happen If This Happened?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Huh?

Colorado web designer told Supreme Court a man sought her services for his same-sex wedding. He says he didn't -- and he's straight | CNN Politics

FOFC legal experts, please clarify.

Did the SCOTUS and all the courts below them just give an opinion on a case that was based on something akin to a What Would Happen If This Happened?

Yeah, they basically ruled on a hypothetical and the plaintiff committed perjury while the attorneys suborned perjury. Really weird case.

Some Christian should sue over interest payments as it is against their religion.