COVID-19 - Wuhan Coronavirus (a non-political thread, see pg. 36 #1778)

[Qwikshot]

Originally Posted by Arles

It's pretty wild that for a while they were basically betting against the vaccine to hope they get power later. But, democrats were actively campaigning against the stock market when Trump was president.

In this new world we live in, whomever is out of power will basically be hoping for chaos and misfortune for the country. But, I do agree what the republicans have done in 2021 in regards to the vaccine is pretty reprehensible.

Cite your source on that.

[Qwikshot]

Originally Posted by Qwikshot

Cite your source on that.

I only ask because it sounds like a both sides justification...

[molson]

I remember a lot of posts here saying that the stock market is only for rich people and that Democrats shouldn't concern themselves with it, but that's certainly not the party platform or anything.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

Can the Republicans motivate their base to do anything other than prioritize themselves?

I thought the argument was that Republicans were too stupid to realize that not voting for Democrats was in their self-interest economically I mean, they can be too stupid to be selfish, or they can be purely selfish, but they can't simultaneously be both at the same time.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

I mean, they can be too stupid to be selfish, or they can be purely selfish, but they can't simultaneously be both at the same time.

This is among the worst of your hot takes.

[Brian Swartz]

Why?

[thesloppy]

Because you are trying to suggest that people can't be stupid and selfish at the same time and/or you are attempting to launch an extended internet argument based on the semantics of absolutes. Dealer's choice.

[Brian Swartz]

I wasn't doing either. You literally said they can't be motivated to do anything that isn't selfish, but we have lots of examples of them doing things that people say they should do out of pure self-interest. So either you didn't mean what you said, or it wasn't accurate, or those other statements about them not being selfish enough aren't accurate. They can't both be simultaneously true, that's in 'alternative facts' territory.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Lathum

The behaviors you speak of don't fall across political lines. Left and right alike own Iphones, drive SUVs, etc... Don't fool yourself for one second this is anything other than political.

As I've mentioned before, I know a number of people personally who put the lie to this. It isn't entirely political. The world isn't that simple. There are people who have a stance because they want to own the libs, but there are also people including medical professionals who are against the vaccine because of what they know of the science, there are people who are anti-vax in general but also quite apolitical, etc. There is overlap between these groups but also significant divergence into subsets.

More to the point though, I wasn't make a political statement. I didn't bring that up. I addressed myself to the impact on the world. Do you think injury or adverse consequences due to political motivations is somehow that much worse than it what happens due to other personal decision sources? I mean to me, if someone dies or is injured in some other way, that's true and tragic regardless of the why.

[thesloppy]

So. #2 then.

[Brian Swartz]

Well if you call that the semantics of absolutes, then there's really no point in discussing anything then. I mean, why would anyone post here if we can't actually address our arguments to what people say. The whole first step in any debate is to pin down what someone means by their stated position. *shrug*

[thesloppy]

Man, I am so sorry I do not fully qualify the generalizations I make on the internet to the standards you are used to.

[Brian Swartz]

Dude, that's not the point. I gave you plenty of chances to qualify it after the fact. I can only go by what you said, similarly to how you made conclusions on what *I* meant based on what *I* said. There's always room for you to say 'here's what I actually meant, and it isn't what you think I meant'. That's healthy both directions. Whether or not you want to actually do that is entirely up to you.

[thesloppy]

What in thee hell do you think you are arguing at this point? I still fully believe and proclaim that millions of people can be stupid AND selfish AND vote against their own self interests. You say you've invented a way to interpret that as contradictory. Congratulations?

[Brian Swartz]

I would say if you think the entirety of the Republican base, the term you used, is stupid to that degree then I recommend familiarizing yourself with more sociological research. There are a lot of stupid people, and you can make a pretty good case that they skew Republican. But there are a lot of people in the Republican base who are simply demonstrably not as stupid as they would need to be to fit your paradigm. It's right up there with the 'Trump support is explained by racism' argument that we see every once in a while. It doesn't survive a cursory examination of what we know of demographic reality.

[JPhillips]

I'll give you that not every Trump supporter is a racist, but we have data that shows racial resentment is a very good indicator of whether or not a person supports Trump.

[thesloppy]

Oh, you're not trying to gotcha me over the dictionary definition of selfishness, you're trying to peg me for generalizing while using word 'entirety' in a post months(?) ago.



That makes this argument so, so much worse.

[Brian Swartz]

@thesloppy Huh? The only post of yours I quoted was made less than two hours before I quoted it. I have no idea what you are talking about now.

Originally Posted by JPhillips

we have data that shows racial resentment is a very good indicator of whether or not a person supports Trump.

We have data showing various other indicators lean in different directions as well. Single-factor analysis of this kind of thing is virtually always quite short-sighted. There are all manner of demographics at play, we know that a larger percentage of the minority vote went to Trump as compared to Romney as just one example, so you could single-factor that and say Trump's appeal was *less* racist. Then you can throw in how Romney was running against Obama, but that doesn't really explain the Hispanic vote going more Trump's way, there are other factors there, etc. The point is, it's complex.

[Edward64]

Well, this is interesting and concerning ...

CDC Director Rochelle Walensky said recent studies had shown that those vaccinated individuals who do become infected with Covid have just as much viral load as the unvaccinated, making it possible for them to spread the virus to others. Based on that finding, Walensky said the CDC is also recommending that all school children wear masks in the fall.

[molson]

Last year was tough, but because of the prospect of the vaccine, there was hope. An idea that this wouldn't last forever.

We've lost a lot of that hope. Now, because of the antivaxxers, this feels like something we're just going to be fighting back and forth for years to come.

[Edward64]

When I saw the title, I thought great. But then I read the highlighted sections below and it's not near as strong as it should be (and inconsistently applied for the military).

https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/27/polit...ion/index.html

President Joe Biden will announce on Thursday a requirement that all federal employees and contractors be vaccinated against Covid-19, or be required to submit to regular testing and mitigation requirements, according to a source with direct knowledge of the matter.

The announcement will come in remarks where Biden is also expected to lay out a series of new steps, including incentives, in an attempt to spur new vaccinations as the Delta variant spreads rapidly throughout the country. It will also follow the decision by the Department of Veterans Affairs to require its frontline health care workers to be vaccinated over the course of the next two months.
:
:
While the specifics are still being finalized, the source said, federal workers would be required to attest to their vaccination status or submit to regular testing. The source said the proposal will be roughly similar to what is being implemented in New York City. Additional requirements for the unvaccinated could be added as agencies push to vaccinate their employees.

Biden will not impose the requirement on the US military, despite his authority to do so, for the time being. He is, however, likely to outline how the Department of Defense may seek to approach the issue going forward, the source said.

[Edward64]

IMO, I don't see it as binary as vaxxers and anti-vaxxers. It's more like

(1) People that have taken the shots
(2) People that will never take the shots
(3) People that have not been approved for the shots or have a good reason not to take them and
(4) Other undecided

It's a waste of time talking about (2). There's not going to be a significant shift unless they are forced or there's a lot of dying happening. And honestly, with the vaccines now, improved therapeutics, and 60+% that have been vaccinated with at least 1 shot ... I don't see the mortality rate coming close to what we experienced last year.

For (3), I would include young kids and also pregnant women. I think there is an understandable pause for them and other conditions.

For (4), this is the challenge. There are plenty of Blacks and Hispanics that haven't gotten the shots. I doubt it is Trump vs Dems, and not access as it's been accessible for the past 2-3 months. My guess is lack of trust in the government and lack of trust in science, doctors etc.

For the population in (2), the Government should not subsidize Covid hospitalization, meds etc. They are on their own/ their own insurance if they get sick. 20% copay will still be a significant amount.

[Brian Swartz]

I agree with what you said on (4) Edward.

[Ksyrup]

This was all inevitable with the combination of delta variant, sizeable portion of people refusing to get the vaccine, and dropping the mask mandate. As much as I love not wearing a mask and personally did not need one to protect myself, it was a get out of jail free card that absolved the unvaccinated from any responsibility.

99.9% of places that don't require a mask are not going to ask someone about their vaccination status, and many of the people who won't get vaccinated don't care enough about anyone else to put on a mask. So it's laughable that we have these signs everywhere that say "If you're unvaccinated, mask is required." The only people I see wearing masks are those who either can't get the vaccine or already got it but still want to be more protected/keep others more protected. The #2 group in Edward's list is the sizeable group, and I can't imagine a single one of them giving a crap about wearing a mask when they don't have to, since many of them whined about wearing one when it was required.

[Edward64]

I'm hoping that groups #4 and #3 are enough to get us to herd immunity.

There is approx 21% of US under 14 and approx 14.5% between 5-14. Don't know about Blacks and Hispanics but something I read said their vaccination rate is below their relative population size. So let's focus on those 2 sets, do a better job of reach out & education, better therapeutics and get us over this hump.

United States Demographic Statistics | Infoplease

[Ksyrup]

Getting as many people as possible vaccinated should be the goal. Talking about some herd immunity goal is just another excuse for the leftovers to feel like they can continue unprotected. And if herd immunity is the goal, then masks and other precautions should have remained in place until we get there.

We continue to dance this limbo between doing the smart thing and relenting to the pressure of pulling back at the first signs of a let-up and it continues to bite us in the ass. Dropping mask mandates going into last summer was so stupid and set us up for a terrible fall when school came back. Fast forward a year, and we have a vaccine but can't get most kids vaccinated while dropping masks and distancing, and we're setting up for another restricted fall.

Granted, deaths will be down, which is great, but we still haven't fully achieved a long-lasting semi-normal state yet. What is the ultimate goal? To turn Covid into the flu? With that, you have to accept some level of annual deaths and the knowledge that people are going to routinely get sick.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by Edward64

IMO, I don't see it as binary as vaxxers and anti-vaxxers. It's more like

(1) People that have taken the shots
(2) People that will never take the shots
(3) People that have not been approved for the shots or have a good reason not to take them and
(4) Other undecided

It's a waste of time talking about (2). There's not going to be a significant shift unless they are forced or there's a lot of dying happening. And honestly, with the vaccines now, improved therapeutics, and 60+% that have been vaccinated with at least 1 shot ... I don't see the mortality rate coming close to what we experienced last year.

For (3), I would include young kids and also pregnant women. I think there is an understandable pause for them and other conditions.

For (4), this is the challenge. There are plenty of Blacks and Hispanics that haven't gotten the shots. I doubt it is Trump vs Dems, and not access as it's been accessible for the past 2-3 months. My guess is lack of trust in the government and lack of trust in science, doctors etc.

For the population in (2), the Government should not subsidize Covid hospitalization, meds etc. They are on their own/ their own insurance if they get sick. 20% copay will still be a significant amount.

but why did they lose trust in science all of a sudden? hmmmmm?

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Edward64

IMO, I don't see it as binary as vaxxers and anti-vaxxers. It's more like

(1) People that have taken the shots
(2) People that will never take the shots
(3) People that have not been approved for the shots or have a good reason not to take them and
(4) Other undecided

That's not a bad grouping. The media's obsession with MAGAs has caused us to think that it is all #1 and #2

[Ghost Econ]

Except that 2&4 are the same and deserve your derision, and 3 is with 1 in being pissed that 2&4 are too fucking stupid AND selfish. There is no decision if you're eligible and able.

[Ksyrup]

I also think, from reading social media and in personal conversations, that there are a number of people who would publicly put themselves in group 4 but who are really group 2.

[molson]

A lot of people also seem to think they're in group 3 but are really in group 2.

Not sure where to put the "I'm doing my own research" people.

[Kodos]

Let me put this plainly:

DEAR UNVACCINATED FOLKS. THE ONLY WAY THIS SHIT ENDS IS IF YOU ALL GET THE SHOTS AND STOP BEING SELFISH. THINK ABOUT THE GREATER GOOD FOR ONCE IN YOUR LIFE.

I edited out most of the swears.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by GhostEcon

Except that 2&4 are the same and deserve your derision, and 3 is with 1 in being pissed that 2&4 are too fucking stupid AND selfish. There is no decision if you're eligible and able.

Really? I have an immediate family member who was recommended by their doctor to not get the vaccine . I know what the medically knowledgeable on this board will think of that, but the family member in question spent their career in the medical field as well. Suffice to say that there's more to it than that. This will probably cause me to get flamed, but I'm going to say it anyway; it was a pretty close call for me to decide to get it. I think it's easy to underestimate how differently people think, there is basically nothing that boils down to being as obvious a choice as described.

Originally Posted by Flasch1986

but why did they lose trust in science all of a sudden? hmmmmm?

They didn't necessarily. Some are holding out *because* of what they know of the science, not in spite of it.

[Flasch186]

but isn't it weirdly weird that this spectrum of thought on this topic tracks with the politics of it? Doesn't that ring fantastic to even you? I mean I sit back and watch the theme consistency and I'm amazed how it crosses into even science nowadays.

[Brian Swartz]

I find it normal - perhaps that makes me cynical? But, to repeat what I said further up, I don't think it tracks as closely to politics as most are claiming. For example, I voted Biden. I know apolitical people who strongly oppose the vaccine push. I just don't think it's that cut and dry.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Really? I have an immediate family member who was recommended by their doctor to not get the vaccine . I know what the medically knowledgeable on this board will think of that, but the family member in question spent their career in the medical field as well. Suffice to say that there's more to it than that. This will probably cause me to get flamed, but I'm going to say it anyway; it was a pretty close call for me to decide to get it. I think it's easy to underestimate how differently people think, there is basically nothing that boils down to being as obvious a choice as described.



They didn't necessarily. Some are holding out *because* of what they know of the science, not in spite of it.

Many of these same people have gotten vaccinated, or had their kids vaccinated, without question for their entire lives. Mumps, tetanus, flu, chickenpox, etc. Including boosters as adults. Suddenly, it becomes "wait and see" and "I'm examining the literature" when we really don't have the time to give it 3-5 years to make sure the long-term studies coincide with the initial studies.

And, you can keep saying this doesn't boil down to politics, but many of these same people were touting how great it was that Trump made the vaccine happen as quickly as he did in December. Trump loses (or had the election stolen), and suddenly the vaccine is the equivalent to, I don't know, injecting bleach into your veins.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

I find it normal - perhaps that makes me cynical? But, to repeat what I said further up, I don't think it tracks as closely to politics as most are claiming. For example, I voted Biden. I know apolitical people who strongly oppose the vaccine push. I just don't think it's that cut and dry.

Perhaps the degrees vary based on where you live. It tracks really closely where I live and I don't know many people who don't have an opinion on politics. And particularly on one side, they express that opinion in clothing, flags, signs, etc., without saying a word. Some of them have gotten the vaccine, sure. Many have not.

[Flasch186]

I'm not talking anecdotally I'm talking broadly and broadly, country-wide you're wrong. The consistency tracks:

Pro-life
anti-welfare (products)
Anti-gun control
pro-religion in schools (as long as it's Christianity)
pro-religion in govt (as long as it's Christianity)
Lower taxes / fiscal conservatism (now when a dem is in the WH)
anti-science
anti-climate change
anti-regulation unless it's something they want to regulate
Liberalism is communism
Anti-communism unless it's Russia helping the GOP
Anti-Dictator unless it's trump
Pro constitution unless it needs to be changed to get Trump in office
Anti-corruption unless it's our own
ANTI-VACCINE (Anti Covid Vaccine)

All are on the same track for the big swath of people in that very same tribe? To think otherwise is just rich.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

I find it normal - perhaps that makes me cynical? But, to repeat what I said further up, I don't think it tracks as closely to politics as most are claiming.

Bottom 15 states in vaccination rates, just about all of them have something in common but I can't quite put my finger on what it is.......


States ranked by percentage of population fully vaccinated: July 28

36. Indiana
Number of people fully vaccinated: 2,961,774
Percentage of population fully vaccinated: 43.99

37. North Carolina
Number of people fully vaccinated: 4,563,251
Percentage of population fully vaccinated: 43.51

38. Texas
Number of people fully vaccinated: 12,609,049
Percentage of population fully vaccinated: 43.49

39. Missouri
Number of people fully vaccinated: 2,512,400
Percentage of population fully vaccinated: 40.94

40. South Carolina
Number of people fully vaccinated: 2,078,799
Percentage of population fully vaccinated: 40.38

41. Oklahoma
Number of people fully vaccinated: 1,582,479
Percentage of population fully vaccinated: 39.99

42. North Dakota
Number of people fully vaccinated: 304,231
Percentage of population fully vaccinated: 39.92

43. West Virginia
Number of people fully vaccinated: 698,205
Percentage of population fully vaccinated: 38.96

44. Tennessee
Number of people fully vaccinated: 2,654,498
Percentage of population fully vaccinated: 38.87

45. Georgia
Number of people fully vaccinated: 4,039,150
Percentage of population fully vaccinated: 38.04

46. Idaho
Number of people fully vaccinated: 664,880
Percentage of population fully vaccinated: 37.21

47. Louisiana
Number of people fully vaccinated: 1,703,117
Percentage of population fully vaccinated: 36.64

48. Wyoming
Number of people fully vaccinated: 210,449
Percentage of population fully vaccinated: 36.36

49. Arkansas
Number of people fully vaccinated: 1,087,284
Percentage of population fully vaccinated: 36.03

50. Mississippi
Number of people fully vaccinated: 1,017,257
Percentage of population fully vaccinated: 34.18

51. Alabama
Number of people fully vaccinated: 1,672,423
Percentage of population fully vaccinated: 34.11

[Qwikshot]

Anymore, I think Social Media has replaced religion (specifically Christianity) as the go to for belief systems.

While some may cling to brick and mortar churches, it's just easier for one to click on facebook groups or twitter and espouse made up bullshit with other "believers".

Trump was able to market the outrage and populism that others would dream of. His followers cavort with altered reality because they refuse to believe otherwise it outs them as *gasp* wrong ( they were built for it what not with believing in angels and a big god man up in the clouds).

Their way of life and belief system are under attack from progress and they are not going gentle into the night...Trump and his ilk mine it and state they can return it back to the good times (y'know when minorities were quiet, gays were in the closet, and the rich could be rich - last one is still true).

Same went for being anti-vaxx. It's their hill to die on and boy are they doing that.

I can't be sympathetic with willful ignorance. You can believe in a god and still be a decent person who understands differences.

A lot of these people woke up to realizing the American Dream was dead for them, so with Trump's help (hell he's the epitome of American Dream amirite?), they wanted to destroy the chance of it for anyone.

The way we handled coronavirus is a reckoning of our future, unlike how we handled polio or even smallpox (IMAGINE if half the country had refused those vaccination drives).

The willfully ignorant in this country want everyone else to be poor, stupid and afraid, just like them.

[JPhillips]

Get your vaccine

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Flasch1986

All are on the same track for the big swath of people in that very same tribe? To think otherwise is just rich

I never said there wasn't an overlap. To repeat, I think there is a lot of it. I think most people who are anti-vaccine are on the political right. My point is that isn't *all* of it and there's more outliers than people on this board tend to claim. It's been claimed recently and repeatedly that there aren't *any*

So I don't really disagree with the larger point, I'm just saying that - as it always is - the bigger picture is more complex. When people say it's *all* politics - no it isn't.

For example, as of mid-June 29% of unvaccinated were Democrats, 49% Republican. Those who said they definitely weren't going to get it were 67% Republican ... which means a third of those who said they weren't going to get the vaccine *aren't* Republican. Those not convinced either way were split evenly, which means it wasn't obvious at least a month ago to a significant number predisposed to not be on the right that getting the vaccine was a good idea.

So yes, on the big picture politics plays a big role, but there's also quite a bit more going on that that. There are a lot of issues you can poll and get bigger splits than that (say, just about anything relating to Trump for example).

[Brian Swartz]

Another fun fact; the same polling found that 27% of Republican respondents had been vaccinated. Which of course is not high enough, but it's also a far cry from 'half the country is refusing the vaccine'.

[Ghost Econ]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Really? I have an immediate family member who was recommended by their doctor to not get the vaccine .

And I know a doctor who prescribes hydroxychoriquine. Being a doctor doesn't preclude you from being an idiot and those doctors should be brought before their boards to have their licenses reviewed.

[Ghost Econ]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Bottom 15 states in vaccination rates, just about all of them have something in common but I can't quite put my finger on what it is.......


States ranked by percentage of population fully vaccinated: July 28

Closely maps to rankings of public education?

[JPhillips]

There are two major groups. The group that is more, 'wait and see,' does skew more young and less-white than the general population. The group that is more, 'I'll never get the shot,' skews more white, middle-aged, and evangelical than the general population.

I just saw that polling data this morning.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Ghost Econ

And I know a doctor who prescribes hydroxychoriquine. Being a doctor doesn't preclude you from being an idiot and those doctors should be brought before their boards to have their licenses reviewed.

The person who finished last in med school is still called doctor

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Ghost Econ

Closely maps to rankings of public education?

I would say the Venn diagram is close to a perfect circle

[cuervo72]

I don't get the "wait and see" approach. Wait and see until when? The vaccine has been administered for months now. How long are they going to need to make sure there aren't any side-effects? Two years? Five years?

[molson]

They need more time to do research.