Pro Wrestling Discussion Thread **Spoilers Possible**

[RainMaker]

The Saudi story coming out is real weird. Anyone have a clue what's going on?

[CU Tiger]

link?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

link?

I think this has about the latest updates I've seen
WWE - Saudi Arabia Updates: Issues Not Related To Plane?, NXT Stars On SmackDown, Frustrated Talents - Wrestling Inc.

[Toddzilla]

I don't care what the problem in SA was, last nights Smackdown was amazing

[JonInMiddleGA]

Nothing in wrestling has made me happier than seeing the Time Bomb explode.

Hiromu baby.

All the damned feels.

[RainMaker]

I had my doubts but AEW is pretty good. Same for NXT.

[RainMaker]

Jericho is still great.

Behold the glory of another fantastic Chris Jericho segment #AEWDynamite pic.twitter.com/t9s8QaDfSf

— Smark to Death Podcast (@smarktodeath) November 7, 2019

[RainMaker]

Also the Cody promo last night was better than any promo in WWE since Punk.

[Mota]

AEW has reminded me why I love wrestling.

[miami_fan]

I opened up Twitter a minute ago. Ricky Morton is trending. It's 2019.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

I opened up Twitter a minute ago. Ricky Morton is trending. It's 2019.

Sixty- fucking- three?!

[JonInMiddleGA]

Interesting bit of trivia I saw in the dirt sheets.

The Athletic Commission doctor that allowed Cody to continue last night after his (apparently) hardway cut? The same doctor that saved Lawler's life after his heart attack on Raw.

[RainMaker]

I would have paid $20 for the PPV but there is no way I'm paying $60 these days for a wrestling PPV.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I would have paid $20 for the PPV but there is no way I'm paying $60 these days for a wrestling PPV.

I'm not remotely sure I'd pay $60 even for G1 Finals. It'd have to be one helluva potential payoff in this day & age for me to consider that.

I mean, household already drops $20/month on wrestling as it is (kid has both WWE network & NJPWworld)

[molson]

This was rumored for a while, but CM Punk finally showed up on WWE's completely unnecessary Fox Sports 1 studio show

Streamable - free video publishing

This is technically a Fox deal and not a WWE deal, but based on the way he's been talking the last few months, I still think the question now is just when he gets back in the ring for them and whether it's a one-time thing.

Edit: I saw someone else point out that all of his shirts have been removed from Pro Wrestling Tees recently.

[miami_fan]

Wrestlemania presale has begun. There are 2000+ in front of me in the queue.

[RainMaker]

I don't know most of the wrestlers on AEW but the MJF guy is really good on the mic.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I don't know most of the wrestlers on AEW but the MJF guy is really good on the mic.

He probably has the highest single grade in any aspect of the business of any of their young talent. He's not the greatest thing in the ring after the bell rings but he's probably the best young mic guy I've seen since ... well, honestly, since Jericho. He is delightfully hateable.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The ending spot of NXT War Games - Ciampa / Cole - ...

Am I completely wrong for being uneasy with having Ciampa do top of cage spots?

[RainMaker]

That was an insane bump. Can't remember seeing one like that in WWE before.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

That was an insane bump. Can't remember seeing one like that in WWE before.

It was pretty, relatively safe as executed ... but I dunno, seemed like unnecessary added risk to me. For what, exactly, that sake of a highlight clip to use in annual top 10 lists or something?

[JonInMiddleGA]

sidebar: the camera shot of Dr. Britt Baker, concerned about her boyfriend Adam Cole, was a big enough deal that Trips had to address it in his post-match presser.

He swears the production people in the truck didn't know that she was a talent contracted to another promotion and that they would never intentionally put heat on anyone by doing that.

Here's the thing: the truck had to know where she was to get that shot, had to know she (I guess) dates Cole. I find it hard to believe that nobody smartened up the truck at any point in what had to be a pre-planned shot.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Survivor Series would be a lot easier to watch if we weren't getting false "concurrent streams exceeded" notices and having to reload every 90 seconds or so. And it looks like there are general issues being reported with both the app and the xbox refusing to even let people log in.

Great job Weewee, great job.

edit to add: it finally settled down about the end of the AJ triple threat.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Survivor Series would be a lot easier to watch if we weren't getting false "concurrent streams exceeded" notices and having to reload every 90 seconds or so. And it looks like there are general issues being reported with both the app and the xbox refusing to even let people log in.

Great job Weewee, great job.

edit to add: it finally settled down about the end of the AJ triple threat.

It has been trash since they switched streaming providers.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It has been trash since they switched streaming providers.

I literally can't tell you the last time I used it myself prior to this weekend but the kid is home for Thanksgiving break so we watched.

[RainMaker]

I sporadically sign up for the WWE Network. Usually around Rumble time through Mania. Survivor Series and Takeover looked good so I signed back up. But they've had problems for awhile since the switch and their apps still suck since they had to re-write them from scratch.

Interesting weekend.

- Adam Cole is great (and might have a death wish)
- Keith Lee is cool for someone I had never seen before
- Weird how Vince thought NXT would be treated as heels in Chicago
- Styles/Nakamura/Strong was a huge disappointment considering the talent they had
- Survivor Series matches were weirdly booked and kind of sucked
- Please stop using a red light for the Fiend matches. It's terrible.
- I hate the commentary team on WWE

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

It was pretty, relatively safe as executed ... but I dunno, seemed like unnecessary added risk to me. For what, exactly, that sake of a highlight clip to use in annual top 10 lists or something?

I thought the bump Owens took was almost worse. Canadian Destroyer on the steel platform. I know they do it safely but that's still a large man.

Also the worst bump was the one that Gargano took on friggin TV. They had Balor do a brainbuster on the steel ramp for some insane reason and it looks like it screwed up his neck. If you're going to do stuff like that, save it for something big.

[miami_fan]

Question for the more experienced fan.

Was it just a business decision by WWE to have wrestlers bleed a little as possible?

I turned on the TNT app today to watch the Champions league with my son and he caught one of the AEW clips of Cody Rhodes bleeding. Now he watches WWE pretty exclusively which means I only watch WWE outside of this thread. His reaction to the clip helped me realize that I have not seen a "bloodbath" in WWE in a way I saw on some of the clips of AEW. I was under the impression the industry decided on a little to no blood policy.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

I was under the impression the industry decided on a little to no blood policy.

For WWE it goes back to 2008 and was tied to their TV-PG rating. Vince has been pretty steadfast about enforcing it, reportedly (legit) fining wrestlers from $500 to $10,000 for what he deemed intentional violations of it.

AEW is believed to be more willing to push the limits of PG-14, which allows for more both violence and sexuality, and there are indications they might try to push the envelope to see just how far they can go without ending up as TV-MA

And, no, there's really not been any sort of industry agreement on the subject. There was some push by some talent for the bleeding to be cut back after several reasonably high profile hepatitis situations but that never really took off much. The staple guns & barbed wire bats have remained out there in the business all along, there's just not been all that much TV featuring it.

edit to add: Also, worth noting probably, the Cody/Dustin bloodbath was on PPV. And you mentioned turning on the app specifically. That would probably have looser restrictions than TV proper.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

For WWE it goes back to 2008 and was tied to their TV-PG rating. Vince has been pretty steadfast about enforcing it, reportedly (legit) fining wrestlers from $500 to $10,000 for what he deemed intentional violations of it.

AEW is believed to be more willing to push the limits of PG-14, which allows for more both violence and sexuality, and there are indications they might try to push the envelope to see just how far they can go without ending up as TV-MA

And, no, there's really not been any sort of industry agreement on the subject. There was some push by some talent for the bleeding to be cut back after several reasonably high profile hepatitis situations but that never really took off much. The staple guns & barbed wire bats have remained out there in the business all along, there's just not been all that much TV featuring it.

edit to add: Also, worth noting probably, the Cody/Dustin bloodbath was on PPV. And you mentioned turning on the app specifically. That would probably have looser restrictions than TV proper.

Thank you for the explanation. That all makes sense.

[JonInMiddleGA]

fwiw, if you have the network and haven't watched Austin interview 'Taker on "Broken Skull Sessions", you probably ought to do so.

Undertaker is so rarely out of character that it's really a treat to hear him tell stories and be fairly relaxed.

There's nothing all that earth shattering (biggest surprise is probably him revealing that he doesn't remember anything about the WM loss to Brock, due to a concussion) but just seeing him like this is kinda nice.

[RainMaker]

Sort of souring on AEW. Was interesting at first but it feels way too much like WWE lite at the moment. Same goofy segments. Nothing real exciting happening. Pretty predictable product.

And while I like the fact they give you winners and losers unlike WWE, I wouldn't be opposed to the occasional DQ to protect someone.

[molson]

When you look at the Win/Loss records that AEW made such a fuss over, you see that there aren't a lot of stars by that metric. I've always thought that lack of clean finishes was an overblown criticism. There's a reason that just about every promotion in history had some variation of jobbers squashes and unclear finishes. Everybody is more of a star when true losses are more rare. I personally preferred the older style of jobber squashes so the fans got used to seeing ALL of a company's roster stars succeed all the time, but, I'm old.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

When you look at the Win/Loss records that AEW made such a fuss over, you see that there aren't a lot of stars by that metric. I've always thought that lack of clean finishes was an overblown criticism. There's a reason that just about every promotion in history had some variation of jobbers squashes and unclear finishes. Everybody is more of a star when true losses are more rare. I personally preferred the older style of jobber squashes so the fans got used to seeing ALL of a company's roster stars succeed all the time, but, I'm old.

Agreed. But I guess if you're in a "ratings war", you can't kill a quarter hour for a squash match.

As for the records, Jungle Boy is getting a title match in 2 weeks and is 0-8.

I think keeping records is silly. Highlight winning streaks and big victories unlike WWE. I love the idea of contender rankings. But you book yourself in a corner showing records and make top talent look weak.

[RainMaker]

Also where the hell did Keith Lee come from? For a guy that size he is real good.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Also where the hell did Keith Lee come from? For a guy that size he is real good.

Evolve & PWG were where he really broke out of the pack in the indies, though his first shot with a higher tier company was 2015-16 in ROH (teaming with Shane Taylor). But it was Evolve where I think he really started to wow people.

He's worked with quite a bit of the NXT roster in the past (notably Hero, Dijak, Ricochet). I think the first thing more than a highlight that I remember standing out for me was a match against ZSJ.

Problem for Lee's future is age: he's already 35. Started training with Killer Tim Brooks back in 2005, tried out for WWE as early as 2008.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

I personally preferred the older style of jobber squashes so the fans got used to seeing ALL of a company's roster stars succeed all the time, but, I'm old.

And see, old as I am, that's exactly why I can't watch the new NWA product.

There's only X number of hours in a week, I'm to the point that there's simply exponentially too much really good wrestling out there for me to spend time watching squashes on the regular.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

And see, old as I am, that's exactly why I can't watch the new NWA product.

There's only X number of hours in a week, I'm to the point that there's simply exponentially too much really good wrestling out there for me to spend time watching squashes on the regular.

NWA sucks without Cornette. He sort of made the show.

[RainMaker]

How is he only 23 years old and cutting promos this good?

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by molson

When you look at the Win/Loss records that AEW made such a fuss over, you see that there aren't a lot of stars by that metric. I've always thought that lack of clean finishes was an overblown criticism. There's a reason that just about every promotion in history had some variation of jobbers squashes and unclear finishes. Everybody is more of a star when true losses are more rare. I personally preferred the older style of jobber squashes so the fans got used to seeing ALL of a company's roster stars succeed all the time, but, I'm old.

My preferred way as well. The PPVs were treated with such priority and the matches were all fresh and it was hard to even predict who might win. Thinking back years ago to WM3. Trying to predict all 12 of them matches would have been nearly impossible. Sure I was 10 at the time but I really thought Hogan would lose. I actually thought Steamboat would lose as well. The heels were built up as unbeatable and would use whatever they needed to pull one over. Today, you see heels lose all the time, so unless its something fresh like Fiend you kind of know what to expect in any of the big shows.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

How is he only 23 years old and cutting promos this good?

Arguably the most natural promo youngster since Jericho figured out how to cut a promo.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Arguably the most natural promo youngster since Jericho figured out how to cut a promo.

Yeah, MJF and Darby Allin really are the big surprises so far to me.

[Carman Bulldog]

Here's the thing with jobbers and squash matches...

Let's say my favourite wrestler is a guy called The Saint. Most of the matches should be against guys like The Titan and The Cowboy. Guys who on a good day could maybe beat The Saint although probably won't. This should be the norm match wise for guys like The Saint, The Patriot, etc.

A match against The Giant the odd time is okay, but I also don't want one-sided affairs like that every week where I know The Saint will win (ie. the classic squash).

Finally, matches like The Saint and The Patriot or The Saint and The Chief should be rare. These should feel special like big time affairs. You can't have those guys trading wins every week or they become just like The Titan and The Cowboy.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Carman Bulldog

Here's the thing with jobbers and squash matches...

Let's say my favourite wrestler is a guy called The Saint. Most of the matches should be against guys like The Titan and The Cowboy. Guys who on a good day could maybe beat The Saint although probably won't. This should be the norm match wise for guys like The Saint, The Patriot, etc.

A match against The Giant the odd time is okay, but I also don't want one-sided affairs like that every week where I know The Saint will win (ie. the classic squash).

Finally, matches like The Saint and The Patriot or The Saint and The Chief should be rare. These should feel special like big time affairs. You can't have those guys trading wins every week or they become just like The Titan and The Cowboy.

It took me way too long to figure out what was going on here.

[JonInMiddleGA]

There's been so many faction moves & promotion moves in the second tier promotions this weekend that I'm starting to get a headache.

Marty to NWA ... but is working another ROH show tonight (also Colt Cabana officially done at ROH TFN, now NWA)

New Ingobernables faction in ROH, with Rush, Kenny King ... and Dragon Lee

Sin Cara to AAA ... with his name & likeness

AAA debuts their own new Ingobernables faction ... Rush, LA Park, Killer Kross, Konnan, and Bestia del Ring.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Another Broken Skull Session, another solid installment with someone that doesn't do a ton of such things.

Goldberg was pretty good, not Undertaker good, but good.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Sooner or later you can't keep running out lower midcarders that no one knows, having questionable production quality (even sycophants found the inset vs commercial a fail) and too often nonsensical booking. AEW's issues are {gasp} exactly what concerned me from day zero: they simply don't have enough people making decisions who know what the hell they're doing beyond the spot show level.

'NXT' Beats 'All Elite Wrestling: Dynamite' in Key Demo for First Time Ever

[Flasch186]

I think you're wrong in comparing the ratings of the two heads up... NXT should beat them. The winners are us. I think in the past up until now you've been painting it with a if they don't succeed in beating WWE/NXT they fail but that's not true. They've already won... in doing so WWE doesn't lose. The losers are those that thought ONLY WWE could exist, the winners are the fans and the workers.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

I think you're wrong in comparing the ratings of the two heads up... NXT should beat them. The winners are us. I think in the past up until now you've been painting it with a if they don't succeed in beating WWE/NXT they fail but that's not true.

Nope, that's not been my thing (go look).

The product simply hasn't been very good, and has been painfully laughable almost as often as it has been really good.

For every MFJ shines, there's the tragedy of JR on commentary. For every PPV highlight, there's the NWO B-team existence of The Dark Order. (not fair of me , the B-team at least had people who had once been relevent). For every Luchasaurus (who is at least a freakish athlete), there's a Librarian ... err TWO librarians. It's supposed to be "different", but different is largely built around a WWE retirement home.

It's like watching a dumpster fire that has a few items of value accidentally too close to the bin. It's frustrating, it's sad, but when it goes away most of it really won't be any loss at all.

The losers are those that thought ONLY WWE could exist, the winners are the fans and the workers.

The losers here are Turner, who tied themselves up with a mess that really is about 2-3 talents away from being NWA Power.

And that's a big part of the problem here: there's too many hours of TV in the U.S. without enough interesting talent. If you combined the AEW/ROH/NWA rosters, you might have enough talent ... but there still might not be anyone involved that knows how to book nor how to do TV production that doesn't blow.

[Flasch186]

I would counter that most of the marks aren't searching for ROH or NWA. They're content to watch it on the boob tube and they have two good products right now in NXT and AEW while they have 2 average products in RAW and Smackdown. If they miss one it isn't a big deal because there are others to catch or DVR. I believe that you're placing your myopathy on the masses and that is a mistake. You're the unique one, not them. The product that is out there in NXT and AEW is good enough for them while not being good enough for you. Translated out to the folk that are like them and you there are a lot more them than you and boiled into viability AEW and NXT win as well as the Marks and while you might be frustrated you're frustration today is contrasted with the fact that a few years ago the MArks were the ones frustrated. They're not today.... you are.