WW United -- GAME OVER

[JAG]

6:33am LSG votes lerriuqs - lerriuqs 1
10:18am Lorena votes lerriuqs - lerriuqs 2
10:55am Jackal votes GE - lerriuqs 2 GE 1
11:30am Lathum votes Darth - lerruqs 2 GE 1 Darth 1
11:57am lerriuqs votes Jackal - lerriuqs 2 GE 1 Darth 1 Jackal 1
11:58am clap votes Jackal - lerriuqs 2 Jackal 2 GE 1 Darth 1
12:01pm GE votes Jackal - Jackal 3 lerriuqs 2 GE 1 Darth 1
12:08pm Jackal unvotes GE, votes lerriuqs - lerriuqs 3 Jackal 3 Darth 1
12:21pm J23 votes Darth - Jackal 3 lerriuqs 3 Darth 2
12:24pm KWhit votes Jackal - Jackal 4 lerriuqs 3 Darth 2
12:42pm lerriuqs unvotes Jackal votes DT - Jackal 3 lerriuqs 3 Darth 2 DT 1
12:45pm Jackal unovtes lerriuqs votes Darth - Jackal 3 Darth 3 lerriuqs 2 DT 1
12:56pm KWhit unvotes Jackal - Darth 3 lerriuqs 2 Jackal 2 DT 1
1:03pm clap unvotes Jackal votes lerriuqs - Darth 3 lerriuqs 3 Jackal 1 DT 1
1:09pm Alan votes J23 - Darth 3 lerriuqs 3 Jackal 1 DT 1 J23 1
1:11pm KWhit votes Lathum - Darth 3 lerriuqs 3 Jackal 1 DT 1 J23 1 Lathum 1
1:14pm lerriuqs unvotes DT votes J23 - Darth 3 lerriuqs 3 J23 2 Jackal 1 Lathum 1
1:16pm KWhit unvotes Lathum - Darth 3 lerriuqs 3 J23 2 Jackal 1
1:18pm KWhit votes J23 - Darth 3 lerriuqs 3 J23 3 Jackal 1
1:23pm DT votes J23 - J23 4 Darth 3 lerriuqs 3 Jackal 1
1:32pm Jackal unvotes Darth votes lerriuqs - J23 4 lerriuqs 4 Darth 2 Jackal 1
1:38pm Darth votes J23 - J23 5 lerriuqs 4 Darth 1 Jackal 1
1:46pm Schmidty votes J23 - J23 6 lerriuqs 4 Darth 1 Jackal 1
1:49pm J23 unvotes Darth votes lerriuqs - J23 6 lerriuqs 5 Jackal 1
1:51pm GE unvotes Jackal - J23 6 lerriuqs 5
1:57pm JAG votes J23 - J23 7 lerriuqs 5
1:58pm GE votes J23 - J23 8 lerriuqs 5

[The Jackal]

As long as we're not voting for Lathum, JAG, or Darth, I'm good with anyone. Would especially like to hear from Telle.

But I'll let others guide the discussion, as I'm sure clap isn't the only one that doesn't trust me.

[JAG]

And the color-coated version with the assumption that Jackal is the seer:

6:33am LSG votes lerriuqs - lerriuqs 1
10:18am Lorena votes lerriuqs - lerriuqs 2
10:55am Jackal votes GE - lerriuqs 2 GE 1
11:30am Lathum votes Darth - lerruqs 2 GE 1 Darth 1
11:57am lerriuqs votes Jackal - lerriuqs 2 GE 1 Darth 1 Jackal 1
11:58am clap votes Jackal - lerriuqs 2 Jackal 2 GE 1 Darth 1
12:01pm GE votes Jackal - Jackal 3 lerriuqs 2 GE 1 Darth 1
12:08pm Jackal unvotes GE, votes lerriuqs - lerriuqs 3 Jackal 3 Darth 1
12:21pm J23 votes Darth - Jackal 3 lerriuqs 3 Darth 2
12:24pm KWhit votes Jackal - Jackal 4 lerriuqs 3 Darth 2
12:42pm lerriuqs unvotes Jackal votes DT - Jackal 3 lerriuqs 3 Darth 2 DT 1
12:45pm Jackal unovtes lerriuqs votes Darth - Jackal 3 Darth 3 lerriuqs 2 DT 1
12:56pm KWhit unvotes Jackal - Darth 3 lerriuqs 2 Jackal 2 DT 1
1:03pm clap unvotes Jackal votes lerriuqs - Darth 3 lerriuqs 3 Jackal 1 DT 1
1:09pm Alan votes J23 - Darth 3 lerriuqs 3 Jackal 1 DT 1 J23 1
1:11pm KWhit votes Lathum - Darth 3 lerriuqs 3 Jackal 1 DT 1 J23 1 Lathum 1
1:14pm lerriuqs unvotes DT votes J23 - Darth 3 lerriuqs 3 J23 2 Jackal 1 Lathum 1
1:16pm KWhit unvotes Lathum - Darth 3 lerriuqs 3 J23 2 Jackal 1
1:18pm KWhit votes J23 - Darth 3 lerriuqs 3 J23 3 Jackal 1
1:23pm DT votes J23 - J23 4 Darth 3 lerriuqs 3 Jackal 1
1:32pm Jackal unvotes Darth votes lerriuqs - J23 4 lerriuqs 4 Darth 2 Jackal 1
1:38pm Darth votes J23 - J23 5 lerriuqs 4 Darth 1 Jackal 1
1:46pm Schmidty votes J23 - J23 6 lerriuqs 4 Darth 1 Jackal 1
1:49pm J23 unvotes Darth votes lerriuqs - J23 6 lerriuqs 5 Jackal 1
1:51pm GE unvotes Jackal - J23 6 lerriuqs 5
1:57pm JAG votes J23 - J23 7 lerriuqs 5
1:58pm GE votes J23 - J23 8 lerriuqs 5

[GoldenEagle]

Here is how I am looking at it, with the assumption that The Jackal is the seer:

COT:
KWhit
Myself
JAG
Lathum
Darth
Lerriuqs

Possible Wolves:
LSG
Lorena
Telle
Clap
Daddy Torgo
Schmidty

Am I leaving anyone off?

Lorena and LSG both voted for lerriqus but then did not vote for the rest of the day. Telle has been inactive and clap has been clap.

[JAG]

I'd be interested to see other people's trust lists and thoughts. I'll throw my two cents out later.

[claphamsa]

and jackyl is a wolf... whats your point?

[LoneStarGirl]

Originally Posted by lerriuqs

Well, a good starting place IMO is Jackal. I think there's at least one wolf that voted Golden Eagle on Day 2. My secondary looks would be at Lathum - the fact he went after CR and he's dead now is suspicious - LSG said he wouldn't have done that, but that's exactly the type of thing Lathum would do.

I'm also looking at LSG right now. As the cultist last game, she was working very hard to start the vote early pretty much every day and got support. She attempted it Day 2 on CR and now is trying it again on Day 3 with me.

Lerriuqs, I do an early vote because I can only vote early! I check in at 6:30 every morning and 5 pm... nobody votes at night so its up to me to get the ball rolling in the morning!

[LoneStarGirl]

Originally Posted by Alan T

I'm not one to normally defend LSG, she pretty much has let me know she doesn't really care much for me.. but in her defense she has said her Real life schedule forces her to vote early with this deadline. It is pretty taboo to lie about real life stuff like that in these games, So I'll assume she's being honest there and it is not some ploy.

You can ask GE if my schedule that I have told you is accurate or not. And Alant, when have I EVER implied that I dont like you?! I am a tad intimidated by your prowess at this game but I have NO negative feelings towards you at all. I am intimidated by Hoop's and Lathum's talent as well and they are two of my favorite players of all time!

[LoneStarGirl]

Originally Posted by JAG

I honestly think it's just clap being clap, not being a wolf.

I definitely have to agree with this statement

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by LoneStarGirl

You can ask GE if my schedule that I have told you is accurate or not. And Alant, when have I EVER implied that I dont like you?! I am a tad intimidated by your prowess at this game but I have NO negative feelings towards you at all. I am intimidated by Hoop's and Lathum's talent as well and they are two of my favorite players of all time!

awww...let's hug it out!!

[Lorena]

Nice job everyone! J23's late vote for lerriuqs makes me feel a little better about him.

I'm trying to figure out why our seer is still alive, it makes no sense. Like someone mentioned earlier, the village has done a good job of nabbing wolves w/out the seer's help. Also, I might have missed it but, why come out with a reveal when we're not close to endgame?

[Lorena]

Hey DT, you fixed your signature!!

[PurdueBrad]

Guys/gals, nightmare day, our entire school district lost internet for the entire day. I just got home and will try to catch up, assuming I'm alive. I let Alan T and Pass know via PM, so Alan can back me up on that I hope. My Blackberry isn't great for the forum. Anyway, sucky excuse but it is what it is.

[PurdueBrad]

Well, I guess Alan can't back me up on that but I'm glad to see us get a wolf.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Lorena

Hey DT, you fixed your signature!!

yup!!

[LoneStarGirl]

I just realized I can speak with Pass... Anybody have any suggestions on what I should ask?

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by LoneStarGirl

I just realized I can speak with Pass... Anybody have any suggestions on what I should ask?

You're all welcome to speak with me!

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

yup!!

Thanks to me! (sorta)

[GoldenEagle]

Originally Posted by LoneStarGirl

I just realized I can speak with Pass... Anybody have any suggestions on what I should ask?

You can speak with KWhit. Hopefully, if you are the seer, you will reveal to him knowing that he can be trusted.

[claphamsa]

unless your jackyl.... then you worry....

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by Lorena

Also, I might have missed it but, why come out with a reveal when we're not close to endgame?

I revealed because I was on the chopping block and it made more sense to clear a couple of people than let myself get lynched for no real reason.

[Lorena]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

I revealed because I was on the chopping block and it made more sense to clear a couple of people than let myself get lynched for no real reason.

Ahh cool, thanks... AGAIN!

[Schmidty]

Man. Like I said earlier, I am going to work tomorrow morning. and won't be home until 3 hours after deadline, so I'm going to have to vote tonight. That sucks because I have no idea what stuff will come to light near the deadline.

hmmmm.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by LoneStarGirl

You can ask GE if my schedule that I have told you is accurate or not. And Alant, when have I EVER implied that I dont like you?! I am a tad intimidated by your prowess at this game but I have NO negative feelings towards you at all. I am intimidated by Hoop's and Lathum's talent as well and they are two of my favorite players of all time!

aw shuks

[Lathum]

OK, so a few thoughts.

If we think there are 2 wolves left we let Jackal live, I for one do, so no reason to kill him now.

I led the charge against Darth, and didn't even consider his player rankings. Frankly, with 3 points I think we need to worry more about nabbing wolves.

Clap has been trying to play it off like he is the seer and knows Jackal is lying. My thought is Clap is likely a wolf trying to discredit PB to get us to lynch the seer for them instead of a night kill.

As a wolf I personaly would kill Jackal, but I can see a curveball in there where they kill Alan, a trusted villager on a hot streak, in the hope we then lynch Jackal today, doing their work for them.

Until we know Jackals alligience we have to take his scans with a grain of salt, but at least we have a begining point.

Vote Clap

[Schmidty]

I agree with Lathum's line of thinking.

The more I think about it, the more I believe The Jackal even though he wasn't night killed. I think the wolves were trying to be too cute with that one, trying to plant doubts about him in everyone's mind. So I am not going to vote for him either.

I'm not sure about clap, but the fact that he is so hardcore against The Jackal makes me think he's a possibility as a wolf. I can't think of anyone better at this point (even though I still have a gut-feeling about GE).

This much is true - If clap is good, The Jackal is next. I think we can all agree on that, barring any new info coming to light.

(Sorry clap )

VOTE CLAP

[Darth Vilus]

so i can Pm GE?

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

This much is true - If clap is good, The Jackal is next. I think we can all agree on that, barring any new info coming to light.

That doesn't make sense to me. If clap was lynched and turned out to be the seer (which I don't believe is the case), then I would agree Jackal would be an immediate lynch.

[JAG]

If Jackal is the seer, I think it's a slam dunk he will be killed at 2pm CST. Until then, I am going to go along with his story (I know he's correct about one person anyway).

From the voting yesterday, here's are my thoughts:

1:14pm lerriuqs unvotes DT votes J23 - Darth 3 lerriuqs 3 J23 2 Jackal 1 Lathum 1

I think this makes lerriuqs look pretty good. Instead of jumping on the Darth train (who had the most votes along with him at the time and is good on Jackal's say so), he helped start the run on a wolf.

1:23pm DT votes J23 - J23 4 Darth 3 lerriuqs 3 Jackal 1

Again, with a 3-3-3 tie and at least 1 villager available to vote for, DT pushes a wolf out to the forefront, so that shades him towards trusted for me.

1:46pm Schmidty votes J23 - J23 6 lerriuqs 4 Darth 1 Jackal 1

Helps Schmidty's case for being a villager.

1:51pm GE unvotes Jackal - J23 6 lerriuqs 5
1:57pm JAG votes J23 - J23 7 lerriuqs 5
1:58pm GE votes J23 - J23 8 lerriuqs 5

Hopefully even if you don't believe Jackal this gives you more trust in me. I was intending to vote for J23 soon after Alan did, but I held my vote in case we needed to break a tie so we wouldn't end up with a no lynch. I wanted to wait for GE to move before voting, but I was afraid of missing the deadline. I found this sequence to be quite interesting:

1:51pm:

Originally Posted by GoldenEagle

I think The Jackal was the most logical candidate for the day. But since he revealed (fake or not), we can't vote him.

I don't really like the run on J23.

Unvote The Jackal

Followed by:

1:58pm GE votes J23 - J23 8 lerriuqs 5

Which to me looks wolfish in trying to attach his vote to a wolf after it was clear that J23 was going to get lynched. Why did he hold back voting if he 'really didn't like the run on J23' until the last minute and why did he change his mind in 7 minutes? Anyway, it's not a smoking gun, but it shades him towards distrust in my mind.


So my summary list (with the usual Jackal disclaimer which I'm sure will be resolved in the near future):

CoT
KWhit
JAG
Lathum
Darth
Jackal

Shade towards trust
lerriuqs
DT
Schmidty

Neutral
Telle (hope everything's ok with her, she hasn't posted in the thread for a while)
LSG
Lorena
clap

Shade towards distrust
GE

[claphamsa]

Originally Posted by Lathum

OK, so a few thoughts.

If we think there are 2 wolves left we let Jackal live, I for one do, so no reason to kill him now.

I led the charge against Darth, and didn't even consider his player rankings. Frankly, with 3 points I think we need to worry more about nabbing wolves.

Clap has been trying to play it off like he is the seer and knows Jackal is lying. My thought is Clap is likely a wolf trying to discredit PB to get us to lynch the seer for them instead of a night kill.

As a wolf I personaly would kill Jackal, but I can see a curveball in there where they kill Alan, a trusted villager on a hot streak, in the hope we then lynch Jackal today, doing their work for them.

Until we know Jackals alligience we have to take his scans with a grain of salt, but at least we have a begining point.

Vote Clap

im not playing it like im the seer, im playing it like im not a moron.

i forgot how frustrating this game could be!

[claphamsa]

go ahead and lynch me, im not sure you all deserve to win after believing jackyl. that being said, it will be 10 villagers to 1 wolf.. so whatever.

[LoneStarGirl]

I am here for my morning vote!! And I did mean I could message KWHIT, not Pass, my fault. I am 0 for this game so I am looking to nail a wolf. N
Not that I dont think Clap is as likely a wolf as any, but I dont want to start an early run against him, so I am goin to try to make this a two man race. I really dont have much to go on so I am going to look at JAG's COT and look at DT, Lorena or Schmidty. DT hasn't been online much and I think if he was a wolf he would be on every chance he got, like he has in previous games. Its hard to tell with Lorena because of the Mia issue, so I am goin to vote Schmidty primarily because of the quick Clap vote after Lathum's initial vote

[DaddyTorgo]

that's an interesting point about GE that you brought up there JAG. I remember I raised an eyebrow at it at the time...

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by JAG

6:33am LSG votes lerriuqs - lerriuqs 1
10:18am Lorena votes lerriuqs - lerriuqs 2
10:55am Jackal votes GE - lerriuqs 2 GE 1
11:30am Lathum votes Darth - lerruqs 2 GE 1 Darth 1
11:57am lerriuqs votes Jackal - lerriuqs 2 GE 1 Darth 1 Jackal 1
11:58am clap votes Jackal - lerriuqs 2 Jackal 2 GE 1 Darth 1
12:01pm GE votes Jackal - Jackal 3 lerriuqs 2 GE 1 Darth 1
12:08pm Jackal unvotes GE, votes lerriuqs - lerriuqs 3 Jackal 3 Darth 1
12:21pm J23 votes Darth - Jackal 3 lerriuqs 3 Darth 2
12:24pm KWhit votes Jackal - Jackal 4 lerriuqs 3 Darth 2
12:42pm lerriuqs unvotes Jackal votes DT - Jackal 3 lerriuqs 3 Darth 2 DT 1
12:45pm Jackal unovtes lerriuqs votes Darth - Jackal 3 Darth 3 lerriuqs 2 DT 1
12:56pm KWhit unvotes Jackal - Darth 3 lerriuqs 2 Jackal 2 DT 1
1:03pm clap unvotes Jackal votes lerriuqs - Darth 3 lerriuqs 3 Jackal 1 DT 1
1:09pm Alan votes J23 - Darth 3 lerriuqs 3 Jackal 1 DT 1 J23 1
1:11pm KWhit votes Lathum - Darth 3 lerriuqs 3 Jackal 1 DT 1 J23 1 Lathum 1
1:14pm lerriuqs unvotes DT votes J23 - Darth 3 lerriuqs 3 J23 2 Jackal 1 Lathum 1
1:16pm KWhit unvotes Lathum - Darth 3 lerriuqs 3 J23 2 Jackal 1
1:18pm KWhit votes J23 - Darth 3 lerriuqs 3 J23 3 Jackal 1
1:23pm DT votes J23 - J23 4 Darth 3 lerriuqs 3 Jackal 1
1:32pm Jackal unvotes Darth votes lerriuqs - J23 4 lerriuqs 4 Darth 2 Jackal 1
1:38pm Darth votes J23 - J23 5 lerriuqs 4 Darth 1 Jackal 1
1:46pm Schmidty votes J23 - J23 6 lerriuqs 4 Darth 1 Jackal 1
1:49pm J23 unvotes Darth votes lerriuqs - J23 6 lerriuqs 5 Jackal 1
1:51pm GE unvotes Jackal - J23 6 lerriuqs 5
1:57pm JAG votes J23 - J23 7 lerriuqs 5
1:58pm GE votes J23 - J23 8 lerriuqs 5

This bit at the end gets to me. It looks like GE unvoted Jackal knowing that is pretty much a wasted vote, but then waits to see if lerriuqs will get any more votes to keep it close. When he sees JAG put a bit of a nail in the coffin of the wolf J23, he places his vote for the wolf. There were also a couple of posts GE made that looked like they were trying to get people not to vote for J23.


2:39 - Responding to J23, who said, "Wow, where did all of this come from? I had a bad game as a striker, but my average was 48, above a few other people. Why all of a sudden are people trying to lynch me here?"

Originally Posted by GoldenEagle

I tend to agree. Alan voted for you first and then everyone else piled on. What is your argument for us not voting for you?

2:51pm

Originally Posted by GoldenEagle

I think The Jackal was the most logical candidate for the day. But since he revealed (fake or not), we can't vote him.

I don't really like the run on J23.

Unvote The Jackal

So I am going to:

Vote GoldenEagle

[DaddyTorgo]

working from our new satellite office today to have the PBX guy come in and take a look at it and then setup the new computers. computer monitors aren't here yet so i'm on my laptop - maybe a little more active until they do arrive, but then i'll prolly be pretty quiet - will make sure to get a vote in though.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by LoneStarGirl

I am here for my morning vote!! And I did mean I could message KWHIT, not Pass, my fault. I am 0 for this game so I am looking to nail a wolf. N
Not that I dont think Clap is as likely a wolf as any, but I dont want to start an early run against him, so I am goin to try to make this a two man race. I really dont have much to go on so I am going to look at JAG's COT and look at DT, Lorena or Schmidty. DT hasn't been online much and I think if he was a wolf he would be on every chance he got, like he has in previous games. Its hard to tell with Lorena because of the Mia issue, so I am goin to vote Schmidty primarily because of the quick Clap vote after Lathum's initial vote

Dude. I already asked you to please put your vote on its own line.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Dude. I already asked you to please put your vote on its own line.

That said, it sounds like LSG isn't usually able to be on during the day, so I'll count the vote.

[Lorena]

Interesting analysis on GE. I believe as of right now, the votes are GE 1, Clap 2, Schmidty 1. I don't see Schmidty as being a wolf, clap.. well, I never know with him, GE seems to have the most condemning vote history. Ideally a clap-GE runoff will be good for the village, I think.

Vote GE

BTW, is the bolded stuff he's posting for a reason or just flavor?

[GoldenEagle]

The lynch yesterday was between lerriqus and J23. I know that lerriqus is not a wolf, but I didn't believe that J23 was a wolf either. My plan was to see if I could force a no lynch, which I thought would be a good idea with the seer reveal. It turns out it would have been a bad decision and I am not even sure I would have gone through with it, but that is my explanation of my decision making process.

I had to put my vote somewhere and J23 made the most sense at the time.

[claphamsa]

Originally Posted by GoldenEagle

The lynch yesterday was between lerriqus and J23. I know that lerriqus is not a wolf, but I didn't believe that J23 was a wolf either. My plan was to see if I could force a no lynch, which I thought would be a good idea with the seer reveal. It turns out it would have been a bad decision and I am not even sure I would have gone through with it, but that is my explanation of my decision making process.

I had to put my vote somewhere and J23 made the most sense at the time.

the only way you know lerriqs isnt a wolf is if you are!

[GoldenEagle]

Originally Posted by Lorena

Interesting analysis on GE. I believe as of right now, the votes are GE 1, Clap 2, Schmidty 1. I don't see Schmidty as being a wolf, clap.. well, I never know with him, GE seems to have the most condemning vote history. Ideally a clap-GE runoff will be good for the village, I think.

Vote GE

BTW, is the bolded stuff he's posting for a reason or just flavor?

One late vote condemns me as the worst voting history?

[GoldenEagle]

Originally Posted by claphamsa

the only way you know lerriqs isnt a wolf is if you are!

Clap, you think everyone is a wolf. You are paranoid! By the way, I don't think you are a wolf but I may have to vote for you for self-preservation.

[claphamsa]

I dont think everyone is a wolf.... I just think everyone who belives jackyl are idiots

[claphamsa]

i think my fake reveal last game only lasted one game as the best fake ever

and my argument was way better than jackyl. i mean comeone people!

[JAG]

Originally Posted by GoldenEagle

I know that lerriqus is not a wolf, but I didn't believe that J23 was a wolf either. My plan was to see if I could force a no lynch, which I thought would be a good idea with the seer reveal. It turns out it would have been a bad decision and I am not even sure I would have gone through with it, but that is my explanation of my decision making process.

I had to put my vote somewhere and J23 made the most sense at the time.

GE, how do you know lerriuqs is not a wolf? I also noted you put him in your CoT which is interesting as he has not been scanned or officially cleared in any way I am aware of.

[GoldenEagle]

Originally Posted by claphamsa

I dont think everyone is a wolf.... I just think everyone who belives jackyl are idiots

If I was a wolf, I would have played it the same way. If The Jackal is not killed tonight, then he will be lynched tomorrow.

[GoldenEagle]

Originally Posted by JAG

GE, how do you know lerriuqs is not a wolf? I also noted you put him in your CoT which is interesting as he has not been scanned or officially cleared in any way I am aware of.

When I was up for lynch on the 2nd day, he came in and saved me. If he was a wolf, he would have just voted for me and I would not be here right now. That clears him in my book. I know I am good (of course, can't prove it), so I think he is good also.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by claphamsa

i think my fake reveal last game only lasted one game as the best fake ever

and my argument was way better than jackyl. i mean comeone people!

Who do you suppose the wolves are, other than Jackal? Since you don't believe he is the seer, who is out there that you trust, if anyone?

[claphamsa]

Originally Posted by JAG

Who do you suppose the wolves are, other than Jackal? Since you don't believe he is the seer, who is out there that you trust, if anyone?

actually i kinda think your the last wolf, but i dont know!

[claphamsa]

oh and as to trust, I trust kwitt implicitly.. cuz the rules said hes good..... and jackyl didnt believe the rules....... its the logical leaps of insanity that usually catch wolves in their fake reveals....