Pro Wrestling Discussion Thread **Spoilers Possible**

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by saldana

i didnt really think it got over well with the crowd.

By pretty much all accounts, anybody who couldn't/didn't appreciate that sort of match really ought to be barred from ever attending another live wrestling event.

[Desmond]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

there is no character arc better executed than one from the extremes so if Edge is the best heel, it would be a great turn....

and there is nothing worse than a character arc between to points on the spectrum that are closer to the midpoint. That is when people dont care, in movies, plays, TV, and wrestling for that matter.

It works alot better in the case of going face to heel than it does heel to face. In order for it to work very well in the latter case you need a really good established heel to work against as well as the proper motivation.

Just about the only mega heel on Raw besides Edge is Umaga, and I don't think that would work all that great.

The main problem with Edge since the Cena fued is that he had to serve as DX's whooping boy and lost alot of his, pardon the pun, edge.

In almost every big spot in that fued, DX went over, and even when HHH blew out his leg, he and Orton still across as goofs. Then Rated RKO started fighting among themselves and just looked more like goofs.

The whole reason Edge got over as much as he did last year was that even though in the end Cena walked away with the belt, Edge was allowed to be perceived as his equal (the title win and the win in Boston).

It'll be interesting to see what direction they go in when HHH comes back.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by Desmond

It works alot better in the case of going face to heel than it does heel to face. In order for it to work very well in the latter case you need a really good established heel to work against as well as the proper motivation.

Just about the only mega heel on Raw besides Edge is Umaga, and I don't think that would work all that great.

The main problem with Edge since the Cena fued is that he had to serve as DX's whooping boy and lost alot of his, pardon the pun, edge.

In almost every big spot in that fued, DX went over, and even when HHH blew out his leg, he and Orton still across as goofs. Then Rated RKO started fighting among themselves and just looked more like goofs.

The whole reason Edge got over as much as he did last year was that even though in the end Cena walked away with the belt, Edge was allowed to be perceived as his equal (the title win and the win in Boston).

It'll be interesting to see what direction they go in when HHH comes back.

Umaga, with a good mouthpiece will be an equally great turn to the face side equivalent to where he is on the heel side of the spectrum....assuming the WWE doesnt screw it up which is a big assumption.

Of course in any storyline there has to be motivation for a switch which is a writer's job (somewhat the director's and cinematographer's) but with the proper motivation a arc is almost foolproof.....almost yet Ive seen Vince blow it time and again. Vince loves to do the flip, and then give no time for the audience to absorb it.......

Umaga would be a great turn, Edge would, Cena would.....basically anyone who has gone far enough one direction on the heel/face spectrum.

[Maple Leafs]

99% of WWE turns fall into one of two categories:
- Completely out of nowhere and make no sense at all
- "Story arc" that develops so slowly and obviously that everyone is bored by the time the turn actually happens (cough, Carlito/Flair)

The last decent turn I remember was Michaels against Hogan, which worked well until the night after the match when Michaels had to get his heat back with his "let's just ignore everything that happened the last month" promo.

[Flasch186]

best event in recent memory for me (cant remember if it was a turn or not), that I can remember and I know you all are better experts on events in wrestling then me was when Stone Cold Steve Austin saved Stephanie from the Undertaker. That was a good one. Stephanie was GREAT in this scene.



What are some other good ones?

[Chubby]

Hahaha I remember that. It was so lame when it turned out Vince was behind the whole thing.

[Toddzilla]

The Acolytes kicked ass

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by Chubby

Hahaha I remember that. It was so lame when it turned out Vince was behind the whole thing.

yup, agreed....hey couldve done anything with that and to have it be Vince was as if the creative people took a month off and Vince made the call himself.

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

yup, agreed....hey couldve done anything with that and to have it be Vince was as if the creative people took a month off and Vince made the call himself.

To me it almost seemed like they had set it up to be some big event where the person behind everything was someone from outside WWE (or someone brought back to WWE) and when they failed to secure anyone for that role they just threw Vince in it.

Just another notch in a long string of fuckups when it comes to WWE storylines.

[Toddzilla]

I think, given the history of the WWF/E and the timeframe in question (spring 1999?) the person they wanted to play the role of the mastermind was ...

Spoiler

Norman Smiley

[Maple Leafs]

Probably the best angle the WWE has done in the last decade was the 1997 storyline that saw Austin turn face, Bret Hart turn heel and reform the Hart Foundation, and Michaels eventually turn heel as well.

In addition to plenty of cool moments, the Canada vs US angle lead to some of the hottest crowds ever seen. Here's a good example:



And of course, if you're talking great moments...

[bselig]

My favorite part of that clip is how Jericho is built up to be ultra-charismatic, then when The Rock responds with the same catchphrases he's used every night for years he's completely dumbfounded, cannot come up with a response

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by bselig

My favorite part of that clip is how Jericho is built up to be ultra-charismatic, then when The Rock responds with the same catchphrases he's used every night for years he's completely dumbfounded, cannot come up with a response

or rehearsed?

[Neon_Chaos]

I loved the USA vs. Canada angle. Cheap heat at its finest, but it still generated the best crowd reactions in the WWE.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

I loved the USA vs. Canada angle. Cheap heat at its finest, but it still generated the best crowd reactions in the WWE.

I'll try to find HBK's promo from the same Halifax show. I've never seen heel heat like that at a WWE show, and he wasn't even a heel at the time. Fans had signs like 'HBK Ruins Wrestling" and at one point the crowd was chanting "faggot" at him... you just didn't see that in a major promotion back then. He seemed legitimately flustered, as if he was ready to walk out.

[Sublime 2]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

He seemed legitimately flustered, as if he was ready to walk out.

Unfortunately he didn't. Hitman RULES!

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Sublime 2

Unfortunately he didn't. Hitman RULES!

I admit, I'm a huge mark for Bret. Still am to this day.

Here's some highlights from one of his most under-rated matches...



And some soap opera acting at it's finest... you have to realize that Bret/Owen was probably the longest running WWF feud of the past 15 years:

[Neon_Chaos]

<--- Hitman mark as well.

[Chubby]

I still smile when I recall the story about how Bret decked Vince in the back after the infamous screwjob.

[Maple Leafs]

More from that Halifax show:

HBK's promo... hot crowd, although this isn't the one I was thinking of where he loses his cool. That must have been at the previous Canadian show, can't remember where... Edmonton?



The flag match the show built to:

[chrisj]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

I'll try to find HBK's promo from the same Halifax show. I've never seen heel heat like that at a WWE show, and he wasn't even a heel at the time. Fans had signs like 'HBK Ruins Wrestling" and at one point the crowd was chanting "faggot" at him... you just didn't see that in a major promotion back then. He seemed legitimately flustered, as if he was ready to walk out.

Oh, man. I was at that show live - that whole show was AMAZING (I still have it on tape). I miss that whole style of WWE show.

[chrisj]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

More from that Halifax show:

HBK's promo... hot crowd, although this isn't the one I was thinking of where he loses his cool. That must have been at the previous Canadian show, can't remember where... Edmonton?

Nope - that was the Halifax show. I think you're thinking right about the mark with 4:10 remaining where he begins to look very upset.

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

More from that Halifax show:

HBK's promo... hot crowd, although this isn't the one I was thinking of where he loses his cool. That must have been at the previous Canadian show, can't remember where... Edmonton?



The flag match the show built to:

Here's the final part of that match

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Yrf9RbfGcBc

[DeToxRox]

ROH World Champion Morishima vs KENTA.

Short but sweet.

[DeToxRox]

ROH invades Japan this summer for two shows; one with Dragons Gate and one with Noah. It'll be fun to see the turnouts. Having those two companies back them means they should expect a huge turnout.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by chrisj

Nope - that was the Halifax show. I think you're thinking right about the mark with 4:10 remaining where he begins to look very upset.

The one I was thinking of was the one where he starts screaming "15 years I've given you people!" I think the Undertaker comes out at the end of that promo for an angle, which is probably the only reason he stuck around to the end.

But this one was pretty bad too.

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Can't wait to hear what you thought of it, SnDvls.

sorry should have commented on this sooner.

I thought it was a good match with a great finish. I think the new camera work that happens in today's wrestling takes alot of the "fun" away as you can see the wrestlers actually talking to each other and calling out moves, which happened in this one too much too. But overall I thought it was a great match and had an awesome finish.

[TazFTW]

Vince McMahon is the ECW champion.

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by TazFTW

Vince McMahon is the ECW champion.

Haha. I didn't watch, but read the results after. That's just so funny. I'm guessing the logic is that Lashley will now chase McMahon for the title?? I don't know lol.

[DeToxRox]

Ring of Honor debuts on PPV July 1st!

The May 12th NYC Show is being taped for the 2 Hour PPV and 12 wrestlers (names not known) are signed to contracts. Guys under contract are just not allowed to go to WWE/TNA basically, but can appear at other indy shows and on their DVD's.

[Joe]

Undertaker is done for 6-8 months

Bad news for the Deadman. After winning the World Heavyweight Championship from Batista at WrestleMania, it was widely reported that the Undertaker was in line for his first long WWE title run. Now those plans will have to change due to a bad injury he suffered this past weekend before Backlash.

The Undertaker has suffered a torn biceps that will almost certainly require surgery. While it is sometimes possible to suffer this injury without requiring surgery and a lengthy recovery period, the belief is that he suffered a complete muscle tear off the bone. He was in tremendous pain Monday morning after his match with Batista the night before at Backlash.

Undertaker saw "surgeon-to-the-superstars" Dr. James Andrews in Birmingham, Alabama this week. Surgery will keep him out of action for 6 to 8 months.

[molson]

Originally Posted by MikeVic

Haha. I didn't watch, but read the results after. That's just so funny. I'm guessing the logic is that Lashley will now chase McMahon for the title?? I don't know lol.

It looks like they're going with "The ECW originals are pissed at Vince for making a mockery of the brand" which could be a fun little angle. Vince strutting around with a do-rag wearing the title around his suit is amusing.

[Neon_Chaos]

As you know, Edge beat Kennedy for the MITB contract on RAW (Kennedy is under the Smackdown Curse, injured 5-7 months)

Major Spoilers from the Smackdown taping

Spoiler

Edge cashed in the MITB contract on Smackdown after the UT/Batista cage match went to a draw. Edge defeated Taker and is now the World Heavyweight Champion.

[Toddzilla]

FWIW, Jay Lethal as "Black Machismo" is the best thing going in wrestling right now. I didn't think he had it in him, and I kind of expected a semi-passable impersonation, but I'll be damned if Lethal isn't 100% dead-on. He *is* the Macho Man - great stuff...

[SteelerFan448]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

As you know, Edge beat Kennedy for the MITB contract on RAW (Kennedy is under the Smackdown Curse, injured 5-7 months)

Major Spoilers from the Smackdown taping

I was at the taping. The cage match was a pretty good one.

Spoiler

Before Edge pinned the Undertaker, Mark Henry came out and laid out Taker

[DeToxRox]

TNA also announced that talent would no longer be able to work any shows for any company that produced DVDs sold through or distributed by any third parties (Highspots, Smart Mark Video, etc.), which includes Pro Wrestling Guerrilla in California. This succeeded in destroying an already depressed company morale. As noted a few weeks back, outside of the top stars nearly everyone in the entire company is upset. This was BEFORE this edict went down. For most of the undercard guys, the only joy they got in this business was the occasional TNA PPV match that was given time (once per month), and being able to do the sorts of matches they wanted to do on higher-level indy shows.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

TNA also announced that talent would no longer be able to work any shows for any company that produced DVDs sold through or distributed by any third parties (Highspots, Smart Mark Video, etc.)

And yet the UWF just announced Dudleys vs Steiners as their main event on June 8th in south Philly. Also appearing includes Daniels, Dutt, Sabin and the proverbial "many many more".

There's an obvious out for them since they technically do their own merchandising, but that could also be misleading since it at their live event I attended (and the tapes I've bought from them), everything was actually handled by Highspots people. Appeared to be something like a contract deal, where Highspots did the work but under the UWF name.

[Joe]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

As you know, Edge beat Kennedy for the MITB contract on RAW (Kennedy is under the Smackdown Curse, injured 5-7 months)

Major Spoilers from the Smackdown taping

Spoiler

Edge cashed in the MITB contract on Smackdown after the UT/Batista cage match went to a draw. Edge defeated Taker and is now the World Heavyweight Champion.

Now they say Kennedy is out only 6-8 weeks. Oops.

[bulletsponge]

Originally Posted by Joe

Now they say Kennedy is out only 6-8 weeks. Oops.

i hope its only a few weeks

[TazFTW]

Bye RVD.

Source: Wrestling Observer Newsletter

As things currently stand, Rob Van Dam will be finished with WWE after the One Night Stand pay-per-view on June 3rd in Jacksonville, Florida. While WWE Vice President of Talent Relations John Laurinaitis was told to re-sign RVD and made an effort to do so, negotiations have ended, and RVD will be leaving the company.

Bad blood has brewing between Laurinaitis and RVD since Laurinaitis was going over the new company policy that talent could not leave the arena on TV days due to the fact that Sylvan Grenier got a speeding ticket after rushing back to the arena after leaving to go to the gym. During the meeting, RVD sarcastically asked the question if they could go to the gym in the morning before the shows.

Perhaps the breaking point in Van Dam’s relationship with WWE occurred after he learned of the re-forming of ECW and asked to get off of the RAW brand to head the resurrection of ECW and what really happened after that. Also, RVD had asked for time off after signing, citing how WWE offered Big Show a deal where he’d be paid for merchandising rights without having to work for a year. People within WWE felt that to be a dangerous precedent and refused to add that stipulation to his contract.

RVD felt that WWE had limited what he can do in the ring and refused to push him in comparison to Bobby Lashley, when Van Dam felt like he was over way more than Lashley. While RVD’s WWE finale will be before his contract actually expires, he’ll be paid until the end of his contract, but will be off of television to prevent him from working with TNA fresh off his stint with WWE.

At this point RVD is looking at working a limited schedule and make some money from special appearances and autograph signings. RVD also wants to take some time to spend with his wife, whom he has said to love to death, and hates being away from.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Whether the phrasing used is work or shoot (referencing sports entertainers & has-beens basically), the NWA has stripped both Cage & the Dudleys of the singles & tag team titles effective today, ending their relationship with TNA. Apparently they did not sanction tonight's match, likely meaning that Angle will not be in the NWA title legacy.

Video announcement linked at:
http://one.revver.com/watch/267425/flv/affiliate/87879

[molson]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Whether the phrasing used is work or shoot (referencing sports entertainers & has-beens basically), the NWA has stripped both Cage & the Dudleys of the singles & tag team titles effective today, ending their relationship with TNA. Apparently they did not sanction tonight's match, likely meaning that Angle will not be in the NWA title legacy.

Video announcement linked at:
http://one.revver.com/watch/267425/flv/affiliate/87879

It's sureal how the NWA can still trot out some stuffy and condesending "executive" more than 15 years after they stopped being relevant.

[Flasch186]

i gotta admit, I have no idea what is going on or has happened. Please clarify?

[molson]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

i gotta admit, I have no idea what is going on or has happened. Please clarify?

The NWA, which likes to think it still matters, had a business arrangments where it's NWA titles would be controlled by TNA. So the top belt in TNA was the "NWA World Champion", and can thus claim lineage to Ric Flairs, Dusty Rhodes, etc. It gave upstart TNA a little "presitge", I suppose, even though the NWA title had been traded around tiny independent promotions for 10 years since WCW split with them.

In the grand scheme of thing, it doesn't matter in the least, TNA will just rename their champions "TNA World Champion", etc.

By making the announcement when they did, the NWA did deny Kurt Angle of becoming the answer to a trivia question - as the only man to hold the WWF, WCW, ECW, and NWA world heavyweight championships.

[Deattribution]

This is something TNA has been planning to do for a while just so they could get into replica belt merchandising, something they couldn't do with the NWA titles. It's not breaking news really since it was basically just a matter of time because whatever advantage TNA initially got has long since passed and now the NWA was the only one benefiting from the national exposure.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Deattribution

It's not breaking news really since it was basically just a matter of time ...

Just to clarify the reason I posted it the way I did was that, while anyone following the situation knew that the break was imminent, there had been a good bit of speculation about exactly how it would be handled & exactly when it would be made official.

And just to clarify further (although nobody asked), my reference to whether it was work or shoot was meant in terms of whether TNA knew in advance that the NWA would act yesterday, whether the slams directed at Angle & Sting were known in advance, etc. I hadn't really gotten any impression that anybody with the NWA was upset or actually even disappointed about TNA's decision not to renew the agreement (indeed, I've actually had one promoter tell me that he thought it would actually serve him better) so I was at least the tiniest bit surprised about the tone of the announcement leaving me to wonder if that was all kayfabe or if it was genuinely meant as a parting shot).

Meanwhile, I'm quite curious to see who ends up winning the forthcoming NWA title tournament. I have to think that Bryan Danielson would be the odds-on favorite, but I get the feeling that both Adam Pearce and Brent Albright also have a shot with maybe Aaron Aguilera being the best darkhorse. I don't really see Psicosis, Nelson Creed, or Chad Parham getting the nod nor any of the others who've been mentioned as possible/likely tournament entries so far.

The problem, of course, with any of the three I consider favorites is that they're working for ROH right now (as well as at least one NWA promotion each). I can't see the NWA wanting their World Champion to lose even non-title matches in another promotion, likewise I can't see ROH wanting to have their booking hands tied or even marginally restricted by anybody else's needs. Could that end up opening the door for someone other than AmDrag/Pearce/Albright to end up winning the title after all?

[SirFozzie]

Won't be any ROH guys, they're pretty much locked down long term now by RoH due to the PPV deal

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Won't be any ROH guys, they're pretty much locked down long term now by RoH due to the PPV deal

Well, I would think they get priority but ... there's relatively few NWA promotions doing much in the way of TV or video these days and all of the ROH guys are still working for other promotions.

Plus Mike Johnson has reported (although the guy is an absolute jerk personally, his stuff is accurate more often than not) that
I can confirm that the deals are simply to prevent the performers from being signed by TNA or World Wrestling Entertainment for the duration of the deals. The contracts do not prevent the talents from working other independent events, from being seen on DVDs released by other companies or claim ownership of character names and likenesses. They are simply a way for the promotion to protect their assets.
http://www.pwinsider.com/ViewArticle.asp?id=24212&p=1

[Flasch186]

hey, what the heck happened to Val Venis' career.....seems that he is a nobody among nobodys now. I dont remember him ever being so low on the totem pole. Is he a cancer or something?

[molson]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

hey, what the heck happened to Val Venis' career.....seems that he is a nobody among nobodys now. I dont remember him ever being so low on the totem pole. Is he a cancer or something?

He's the opposite of a cancer, he's a guy the WWF's been more than happy to keep around for years now as a pure jobber - he's considered a "company guy", not unlike Scotty 2 Hotty or Funaki.