The Trump Presidency – 2016

[molson]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

It's always been hard to get the young and minorities out to vote, but turnout is up for both in the post-2000 presidential elections compared to the 1980-1996 timeframe.

I don't know if there's a way to quantify it, but with all of the available outlets, it seems as though young people are very interested in politics and social activism relative to the 80s and 90s. Or at least, their voice is louder. Voting just isn't a major part of that.

[nol]

Originally Posted by molson

Voting isn't cool anymore, remember liberal icon Colin Kaepernick telling everyone it was a waste of time and didn't make a difference? Social media memes and protests are the way now.

Yeah not like the Voting Rights Act was gutted in 2013 or anything. Not like a bunch of black people just got out to vote in Alabama when the candidates were a Democrat who still votes with Trump 80% of the time and a lunatic child molestor. The smarmy guy who lives in Idaho definitely has his finger on the pulse of this issue.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

Look at the vote, did anyone from the right vote for the bill? No, it was rammed through largely on party lines.

Wait, what? So anyone on party lines is now 'rammed' through? That's ridiculous. That's not what that means.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by nol

Yeah not like the Voting Rights Act was gutted in 2013 or anything. Not like a bunch of black people just got out to vote in Alabama when the candidates were a Democrat who still votes with Trump 80% of the time and a lunatic child molestor. The smarmy guy who lives in Idaho definitely has his finger on the pulse of this issue.

Sigh, everything is always about race even when it's not. From my experience here Molson is one of the most level headed non-race baiting guys. You on the other hand...

[molson]

Originally Posted by nol

Yeah not like the Voting Rights Act was gutted in 2013 or anything. Not like a bunch of black people just got out to vote in Alabama when the candidates were a Democrat who still votes with Trump 80% of the time and a lunatic child molestor. The smarmy guy who lives in Idaho definitely has his finger on the pulse of this issue.

Conservatives want fewer young people and conservatives to vote. And in some places, there's particularly aggressive and concerted efforts to discourage that voting or make it more difficult. That should tell you exactly why it's so important for young people and minorities to vote. So I'm not even sure what your point is. That they should just give up because it's too hard? That I'm wrong for wanting them to vote more?

I don't think I have the "pulse" of everything - all we can do in a discussion is bring our own viewpoints. I can come from a different perspective from you and still have a valid opinion. And you don't know my background or where my perspective really comes from - though I feel like you've made up a narrative in your head over the years that was rooted in some shit I don't even remember.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by panerd

Sigh, everything is always about race even when it's not. From my experience here Molson is one of the most level headed non-race baiting guys. You on the other hand...

Wait... did you just say a comment regarding Kaepernick not voting doesn't have to do with race? nol is right, a lot of young black folk feel disillusioned due to voter suppression. To ignore that is foolish. You may not agree with his last sentence, but the first two are right on.

[stevew]

A Colts LB being killed by an drunk Guatemalan national who was twice deported should give Trump meat to throw at his dogs.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by panerd

Sigh, everything is always about race even when it's not. From my experience here Molson is one of the most level headed non-race baiting guys. You on the other hand...

As opposed to nothing ever being about race?

Not meant a shot at you, it still amazes me that race is still an all or nothing conversation in our country outside of racism as a theory.

[molson]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Wait... did you just say a comment regarding Kaepernick not voting doesn't have to do with race? nol is right, a lot of young black folk feel disillusioned due to voter suppression. To ignore that is foolish. You may not agree with his last sentence, but the first two are right on.

My post was about voter apathy and Kaepernick's statements about voting not mattering. Obviously race has to do with voting on many other levels and I didn't deny or ignore any of that. So while the statements were correct, they weren't responsive to anything I posted and I'm still not sure what the point is. Because race-based voter suppression exists, we're not allowed to criticize young people who don't bother to vote? I think that's maybe what panerd was getting at.

Edit: If it helps, I'll limit my criticism to young white apathetic voters who aren't aggressively suppressed but who still don't bother to vote. And I'll include my girlfriend in that. I have to drag her every time and it really annoys me. She's in the "it doesn't make any difference in Idaho" camp - and even if that's literally true in terms of the presidential election, it's also literally true in every state because 1 vote isn't going to change a presidential election even in a swing state. But there's a lot of things on a ballot, a lot of contested local and state races, liberal and moderate candidates who do win even in red states when young people show up, and in my state at least, big differences between the Republicans on the primary ballots. And more than all that, it's a rare opportunity for actual participation in the process.

[AENeuman]

Originally Posted by nol

Yeah not like the Voting Rights Act was gutted in 2013 or anything. Not like a bunch of black people just got out to vote in Alabama when the candidates were a Democrat who still votes with Trump 80% of the time and a lunatic child molester. The smarmy guy who lives in Idaho definitely has his finger on the pulse of this issue.

Not sure you understand the Voting Rights Act. What you are referring to only applies to, mostly, southern states. None of which were part of this current discussion on turn out in "Blue Wall" states.

[nol]

Originally Posted by molson

Edit: If it helps, I'll limit my criticism to young white apathetic voters who aren't aggressively suppressed but who still don't bother to vote. And I'll include my girlfriend in that.

Cool, in which case your criticism is limited to a pool of voters dwarfed by those who vote Trump because they believe Obama wasn’t born in America or is some shape-shifting reptile creature.

The main takeaway here is that when thinking about the average person in like Wisconsin who voted Obama in ‘12 and did not vote in ‘16, it is not someone like your girlfriend or some random college student quoted in a New York Times article you disagreed with, but someone whose vote was actually suppressed.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by nol

Yeah not like the Voting Rights Act was gutted in 2013 or anything. Not like a bunch of black people just got out to vote in Alabama when the candidates were a Democrat who still votes with Trump 80% of the time and a lunatic child molestor. The smarmy guy who lives in Idaho definitely has his finger on the pulse of this issue.

Nol, you're done. You seem to be incapable of participating in these discussions without name calling.

[larrymcg421]

Blame for Trump...

Trump
People who helped Trump get elected
People who voted for Trump



People who didn't vote/voted third party










People who fully opposed Trump from beginning to end

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Wait... did you just say a comment regarding Kaepernick not voting doesn't have to do with race? nol is right, a lot of young black folk feel disillusioned due to voter suppression. To ignore that is foolish. You may not agree with his last sentence, but the first two are right on.

Wait, I thought you were in favor of the VRA being gutted? I remember debating that with you after the SCOTUS ruling was handed down.

[Ben E Lou]

To be clear, I 100% realize that appears to be an extremely short leash, but a short leash is what he earned. He has had multiple suspensions for name-calling and the last time I specifically put in the suspension note that any more name-calling, and he's done for good. My take is that he's simply incapable of participating in contentious discussions without publicly putting down the person with whom he disagrees.

[molson]

Originally Posted by molson

I don't know if there's a way to quantify it, but with all of the available outlets, it seems as though young people are very interested in politics and social activism relative to the 80s and 90s. Or at least, their voice is louder. Voting just isn't a major part of that.

I found something that tried to quantify it.

Why don’t millennials vote? - The Washington Post

Millennials, in 2016, were less likely to vote or to encourage others to vote than young people in the 80s, but they had the same level of political interest (and one college survey found that their college freshman in 2016 were much more interested in politics than previous generations). And, today's youth are generally more likely to get involved in protests or other political confrontations than youth of previous generations.

So in other words, younger people are less interested in voting not because they don't care, voting just isn't as big a part of the political expression and participation. The numbers aren't as dramatic as I expected, but I still think there's a growing cultural idea that voting is pointless.

[larrymcg421]

It's worth pointing out that, while local elections and clearly important and more people should pay attention to them, the people (like Kaepernick) who didn't vote in states that Clinton won would've had zero effect on the Presidential election.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

a lot of young black folk feel disillusioned due to voter suppression

I want to highlight this one, because while it's something I agree with on the surface (that they feel disillusioned,) I cannot *fathom* the response to "I think there is voter suppression of people like me" being..."therefore I will not vote."

What. On. Earth.

The only reaction I can ever imagine to something like that (and I moved to a state where voter suppression of black folks IS a thing that they got nailed for,) is...to, you know, VOTE. "Eff you, here I am, and although I've voted R more often than D in my lifetime, I'm showing up to vote against YOU for participating in this crap."

[digamma]

We'll also see what happens in 2018 and 2020. Virginia 18-29 turnout almost doubled in 2017 vs. 2009. There's a theory 2016 could have been a wake up call.

[molson]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

It's worth pointing out that, while local elections and clearly important and more people should pay attention to them, the people (like Kaepernick) who didn't vote in states that Clinton won would've had zero effect on the Presidential election.

Kaepernick's California ballot included initiates related to criminal justice reform, including sentencing alternatives non-violent offenders, the death penalty, and the status of marijuana. And there was also the local candidate races you mentioned.

But I think it goes way beyond the literal things you can vote for. Even if you're in a swing state, your single vote doesn't make a difference in the presidential election. So why bother? I think it's important to be a part of the process. Especially considering voter suppression, and all of the battles that have been fought over decades about mere access to the voting boots. I think it was incredibly irresponsible for a hugely influential and relevant person, in this climate, to announce that voting doesn't matter. And many people way, way more liberal than me have criticized him for this.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by molson

Kaepernick's California ballot included initiates related to criminal justice reform, including sentencing alternatives non-violent offenders, the death penalty, and the status of marijuana. And there was also the local candidate races you mentioned.

But I think it goes way beyond the literal things you can vote for. Even if you're in a swing state, your single vote doesn't make a difference in the presidential election. So why bother? I think it's important to be a part of the process. Especially in light of voter suppression. I think it was incredibly irresponsible for a hugely influential and relevant person to announce that voting doesn't matter. And many people way, way more liberal than me have criticized him for this.

And I would be one of those liberal people. This was my post back when it was first reported he didn't vote...

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

There were also criminal justice items on the ballot. I defended Kaepernick before, but fuck him.

I'm simply pointing out, for the context of this discussion about responsibility for Trump, that people like Kaepernick who didn't vote in states that Hillary carried had zero effect on the outcome of this Presidential election. And that's because of our stupid winner take all system.

[kingfc22]

If, and it's still a very big if at the moment, the market continues to correct and has an extended bear run; is there a point the Republicans in Congress start to unhitch their Trump wagons? Or do they?

This is clearly one of his big talking points when it comes to "his accomplishments" along with tax cuts and jobs which can all be bundled together under the economy.

Just curious to hear thoughts on how that could possibly play out should it go south.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by kingfc22

If, and it's still a very big if at the moment, the market continues to correct and has an extended bear run; is there a point the Republicans in Congress start to unhitch their Trump wagons? Or do they?

I doubt it. They've hung with him on everything. They switched their stance on law enforcement, Russia, trade, and much more. Not sure why they'd stop now since he is still popular among Republicans.

[RainMaker]

I was told this tax cut was going to be great for business.

[Edward64]

Hurts to see my 401K take a hit after a year of great increases but let's get to that 10% correction (and no more!) and get it over with.

[ISiddiqui]

I think it's going to go down even more... rates are likely going to go up with the Fed Chair and the immense borrowing they are going to have to do with the tax cut.

[Jas_lov]

Trump will just blame Yellen tomorrow and say he was right all along about firing her.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Hurts to see my 401K take a hit after a year of great increases but let's get to that 10% correction (and no more!) and get it over with.

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I think it's going to go down even more... rates are likely going to go up with the Fed Chair and the immense borrowing they are going to have to do with the tax cut.

Yup booming economy.

[Thomkal]

Dow falls over 1,000 points - Feb. 5, 2018

[tarcone]

Nol, Im curious how your vote was suppressed? Could you explain.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Nol, Im curious how your vote was suppressed? Could you explain.

I'm not Nol but some of the things I see beyond voter ID include making it harder to register, limit early voting, cut staff in higher population centers leading to longer lines.

In my little corner of bum fuck Wisconsin, I can walk in and walk out of my precinct in about five minutes. Voting is not a hassle at all. Why do we try to make it more of a hassle for my fellow citizens in areas with higher population?

Now I know some people like JIMGA want to limit voting as much as possible (at least he's open about his intentions), but let's not use budgets and money as excuses to make voting harder. Let's try and make voting less time consuming. Nobody should have to decide whether voting is worth losing out on a day's income when I can spend five minutes on my lunch break exercising the same right.

[larrymcg421]

Also, restrictive registration deadlines are silly. Same day registration should be available everywhere.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Wait, what? So anyone on party lines is now 'rammed' through? That's ridiculous. That's not what that means.

That is how most people I know take it. And yes, doing it without a lot of discussion can fall into this as well.

Let me put it this way, when was the last time you heard something was rammed through with broad support?

Yes, the tax cuts were rammed through as well. While I agree with them, the way they were passed are indicative of the times we are in.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by kingfc22

If, and it's still a very big if at the moment, the market continues to correct and has an extended bear run; is there a point the Republicans in Congress start to unhitch their Trump wagons? Or do they?

This is clearly one of his big talking points when it comes to "his accomplishments" along with tax cuts and jobs which can all be bundled together under the economy.

Just curious to hear thoughts on how that could possibly play out should it go south.

The hard core guys, they will stick with him. Others that realize he did not cause it (or cause the run up to this point), will stick with him. Most moderates will probably dump him if they have not already.

I am surprised by it, I thought this was over due at least a year ago. Business activity in my sector has been booming. My old sales territory, sales grew by 150% in an established industry.

EDIT: Plus, demand has up in most territories across the country.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

That is how most people I know take it. And yes, doing it without a lot of discussion can fall into this as well.

Let me put it this way, when was the last time you heard something was rammed through with broad support?

Yes, the tax cuts were rammed through as well. While I agree with them, the way they were passed are indicative of the times we are in.

I would say the Patriot Act was definitely "rammed through" and it had broad support (vote of 357-66 in the House and 98-1 in the Senate).

[cartman]

"Rammed through" refers to the time from the introduction of a bill to when it is signed into law, not the level of bipartisanship. Six months is a pretty long time to be considered "rammed through".

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

That is how most people I know take it. And yes, doing it without a lot of discussion can fall into this as well.

Let me put it this way, when was the last time you heard something was rammed through with broad support?

Yes, the tax cuts were rammed through as well. While I agree with them, the way they were passed are indicative of the times we are in.

If that's how you define it, doesn't that give incredible power to the minority? What if they all decide to vote against everything no matter what?

And again, does the tax cut bill count since no Dems voted for it?

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Nol, Im curious how your vote was suppressed? Could you explain.

You'll be waiting a long time for an answer.

Check the word under the user name.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

If that's how you define it, doesn't that give incredible power to the minority? What if they all decide to vote against everything no matter what?

And again, does the tax cut bill count since no Dems voted for it?

And that is where we have gone off the rails in my opinion.

Yes, it gives power to the minority. However, there is a large difference between a minority of 25% and one of 45%. If something goes through that the 45% feel strongly about, don't be surprised when they get riled up. When that minority is 25%, they may get riled up, but they will not have as much power.

That said, I come from the mindset that just because you have the power or capability to do something, it does not mean that you should do it. Likewise, just because you might not have the ability to do something, does not mean you should not attempt to do it (you may learn something valuable along the way). Just because something is lawful does not mean it is ethical, and because something is ethical, does not mean it is lawful.

Apparently I am in the minority in looking at getting something rammed through is akin to getting rammed up the ass or shoving/ramming something down your throat. Its not necessarily a fast process, but it is one with significant resistance. As opposed to something that glided or flew through. Which was passed quickly with little opposition, such as the Patriot Act.

[JPhillips]

So then why doesn't this apply to the tax cuts that didn't even get 60 votes?

[JPhillips]

Oh my this is a bad idea:

Rubio has barely started crafting a paid leave bill, much less a broader legislative strategy. But he envisions an idea that has recently gained traction in conservative circles: allowing people to draw Social Security benefits when they want to take time off for a new baby or other family-related matters, and then delay their checks when they hit retirement age. […}

[Thomkal]

Well I'm sure Trump will now be tweeting about his latest "win" right? He now owns the biggest drop in the Dow in its history. Yay Trump?

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

Well I'm sure Trump will now be tweeting about his latest "win" right? He now owns the biggest drop in the Dow in its history. Yay Trump?

WH already came out with an answer today saying trump was only interested in long term financials which are are amazeballz.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

Well I'm sure Trump will now be tweeting about his latest "win" right? He now owns the biggest drop in the Dow in its history. Yay Trump?

He's finally draining the swamp

[JPhillips]

Put on your seatbelts.

BREAKING: Dow futures point to a more than 1,000-point fall at the open

[NobodyHere]

Ugh.

I think everyone knew that a correction was coming. But it still sucks.

[panerd]

I think everyone is being thrown off by the large numbers as well. I mean 5% sucks but the Dow isn’t even down for the month right now. I do find it interesting that everyone is coming out the woodwork now and placing this all at Trumps feet while denying the growth for the past year. Man talk about turning on a dime of having your cake and eating it too. Partisan politics, not surprising but still funny. Go back a few pages and reread Quiksand’s level headed take on the economy.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by panerd

I think everyone is being thrown off by the large numbers as well. I mean 5% sucks but the Dow isn’t even down for the month right now. I do find it interesting that everyone is coming out the woodwork now and placing this all at Trumps feet while denying the growth for the past year. Man talk about turning on a dime of having your cake and eating it too. Partisan politics, not surprising but still funny. Go back a few pages and reread Quiksand’s level headed take on the economy.

I think it's just making fun of him. He assumed every time the DOW went up it was because of him. So when it goes down, it has to be on him too.

I personally don't think the President has much control over the day-to-day ups and downs but he sure does.

[Scoobz0202]

Lurker more then poster, but yea. This is just another example where if Trump didn't talk so much I absolutely agree that this is just part of the cycle, the ups and the downs, but if the man wants to take full responsibility when its up then he better be damn sure he gets the responsibility when its down.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I think it's just making fun of him. He assumed every time the DOW went up it was because of him. So when it goes down, it has to be on him too.

I personally don't think the President has much control over the day-to-day ups and downs but he sure does.

He only thinks he is responsible for the ups.