LXXVIII: Politicus Lupus (GAME OVER!! SEE POST #2593 FOR RESULTS)

[Tyrith]

Originally Posted by mccollins

If Illini999 / PackerFanatic don't get on during the middle of the night, does that mean the bills are neither signed nor vetoed?

I believe the assumption in this game is that bills are signed if not actively vetoed. This is the opposite of how it works in real life, so don't get confused.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Ok, I know it seems drastic, but its really not. Think about this, How many bills/roles do we really need? 3 a day? hardly. With my plan we get 2 free and clear roles every other day, 4 per presidency. While the wolves get NOTHING.


How is that a bad thing?

Villager roles do not depreciate in value as you add more ... history shows the opposite in fact.

[Tyrith]

Originally Posted by RendeR

I'm sure we can. but why must we have an all or nothing scenario? Why not take 2 out of 3 every other day to give up NOTHING in return?

Because you're giving up three entire bills in return. You're just choosing what you'd consider "nothing".

[Chief Rum]

Sorry for the wait, folks. Man, spreadsheets suck. Especially when you have to put everything in in a hurry. Results coming right now, district by district.

[mccollins]

Originally Posted by Tyrith

I believe the assumption in this game is that bills are signed if not actively vetoed. This is the opposite of how it works in real life, so don't get confused.

I'm trying not to so I'm reading the rules:

Originally Posted by The Rules

The President: Most of his powers have already been stated. A President can't be elected out in congressional elections. He must choose whether to sign or veto any bills which come to his desk.

[RendeR]

I played QB at yale for 4 years gentlemen. I can tell you right now that the best Offense was always a good defense. our first line of defense is that VETO ability, if we can put up a brick wall to the Wolf party gaining ANY ability, while we already have 3 now (assuming the BG redux is vetoed again) then where is the issue? We're already running with 3 skills to their none, they want and to win this game they NEED to create roles for themselves to ensure their survival. If we deny them that FLAT OUT they have nothing to work with but a single night kill and trying to coerce everyone's vote without screwing up.

Think about it for awhile my friends. If you're willing to give the wolf party an inch, they will take an entire tail.

[st.cronin]

I assume the candidates would have sent in conditional orders, as in "if I'm elected I will sign ____ and veto ____.

[KWhit]

Can't wait any longer. I'm going to bed. Night all.

[Chief Rum]

FIRST DISTRICT

claphamsa was removed via wolf vote, and has been replaced by a token Republican representative.

"The fine people of the First District have chosen the worthy candidate illinifan999 to be their choice for the next President of the United States!"

Voting:

PackerFanatic-- 28%
illinifan999--72%

[mccollins]

oooh Electoral college?

[Tyrith]

Originally Posted by RendeR

I played QB at yale for 4 years gentlemen. I can tell you right now that the best Offense was always a good defense. our first line of defense is that VETO ability, if we can put up a brick wall to the Wolf party gaining ANY ability, while we already have 3 now (assuming the BG redux is vetoed again) then where is the issue? We're already running with 3 skills to their none, they want and to win this game they NEED to create roles for themselves to ensure their survival. If we deny them that FLAT OUT they have nothing to work with but a single night kill and trying to coerce everyone's vote without screwing up.

Think about it for awhile my friends. If you're willing to give the wolf party an inch, they will take an entire tail.

Their skills are the fact that they exist and they get to kill one of us each night. We have to do things proactively in order to find them and kill them, otherwise we've just turned the game into RNG crapshoot land. And we could win that way, but we could also lose that way.

And heck, there's no reason to do it on every odd year anyway. We get two PER TERM. This isn't a discussion we have to have for two more days to begin with. And each thing we push through with a "non-Wolf" assignment is a free clear. We've got a lot more roles we can get out there.

We have to go out and find the wolves to win -- we do not win this game by default. We don't win by default with a seer and a witness, not with a likely four wolves out there. We need more roles, and we need them sooner, not later.

[mccollins]

dola, better alternate conservative to liberal districts and leave the centrist results til the end to maximize the drama.

[Chief Rum]

SECOND DISTRICT

Passacaglia was re-elected in a landslide victory.

"The fine people of the Second District have chosen the worthy candidate illinifan999 to be their choice for the next President of the United States!"

Voting:

PackerFanatic-- 28%
illinifan999--72%

[Chief Rum]

THIRD DISTRICT

Tyrith won re-election to his seat.

"The fine people of the Third District have chosen the worthy candidate illinifan999 to be their choice for the next President of the United States!"

Voting:

PackerFanatic-- 28%
illinifan999--72%

[Tyrith]

I'm the 3rd dist, Rum. Pass is the 2nd.

[PurdueBrad]

Congrats Tyrith, I lift a glass to you.

[mccollins]

Tyrith won Passacaglia's seat?
PurdueBrad won Tyrith's seat?

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Villager roles do not depreciate in value as you add more ... history shows the opposite in fact.

What relevence does that fact have? I'm not saying they depreciate, what I AM saying is that every single role we can add while giving NO roles back is not just a positive, its a huge bonus.

Originally Posted by Tyrith

Because you're giving up three entire bills in return. You're just choosing what you'd consider "nothing".

Yes I'm saying we give up 6 of 12 possible Bills over 4 years. So lets look at the effects:

We keep them all, we pour out 12 bills over 4 days, vetoing 2, thats giving us 10 roles and giving the wolves 2, a 5-1 ratio.

We do it my way, gaining 6 bills, vetoing 2, giving us 4 roles opposed to nothing for the wolves. 4-0 ratio. A difference of 1 full point given up to guarentee the wolves get NOTHING to work with.

Now I ask you, how many roles do you really think we can add?

Can you come up with 12? right now? I can't, I'd be hard pressed to find 6, let alone 4 solid ones that will pass the Supreme Courts scrutiny.

The easiest way to protet yourself is to not put yourself in danger. by allowing the wolves to gain roles we are ALLOWING ourselves to be put in danger.

Look at their very first rider, a cunning wolf that canot be detected, in any way. That role alone could win the game on its own in the wrong hands. (thankfully those hands aren't plaing in this game Alan/Hoops) *grin*

Give it some deeper thought, don't reject the idea out of hand. That would be folishness that neither side of the aisle can afford.

[PurdueBrad]

Or Pass, whoever it is in that district next to me.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Tyrith

I'm the 3rd dist, Rum. Pass is the 2nd.

Yup, you are right. Got things switched around. Editing.

[PurdueBrad]

RendeR, I actually kind of agree with you, as much as I hate to admit it. We can basically paralyze the wolves while only slowing ourselves down some.

[Tyrith]

Then we'll legislate some other crap, like giving your wife some flowers after you're dead :P Again, we don't have to deal with this for TWO MORE DAYS. Let it go for now.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by RendeR

What relevence does that fact have? I'm not saying they depreciate, what I AM saying is that every single role we can add while giving NO roles back is not just a positive, its a huge bonus.



Yes I'm saying we give up 6 of 12 possible Bills over 4 years. So lets look at the effects:

We keep them all, we pour out 12 bills over 4 days, vetoing 2, thats giving us 10 roles and giving the wolves 2, a 5-1 ratio.

We do it my way, gaining 6 bills, vetoing 2, giving us 4 roles opposed to nothing for the wolves. 4-0 ratio. A difference of 1 full point given up to guarentee the wolves get NOTHING to work with.

Now I ask you, how many roles do you really think we can add?

Can you come up with 12? right now? I can't, I'd be hard pressed to find 6, let alone 4 solid ones that will pass the Supreme Courts scrutiny.

The easiest way to protet yourself is to not put yourself in danger. by allowing the wolves to gain roles we are ALLOWING ourselves to be put in danger.

Look at their very first rider, a cunning wolf that canot be detected, in any way. That role alone could win the game on its own in the wrong hands. (thankfully those hands aren't plaing in this game Alan/Hoops) *grin*

Give it some deeper thought, don't reject the idea out of hand. That would be folishness that neither side of the aisle can afford.

10-2 is not equal to 4-0. It is MASSIVELY better for the village, by a factor of 3 or 4 I would guess. That is where your assumptions break down.

[Chief Rum]

Corrected.

[st.cronin]

Each villager role that you add becomes much more powerful than the last one. This is a werewolf fact. I have run quite a few games, I know what I'm talking about.

[Chief Rum]

FOURTH DISTRICT

PurdueBrad won re-election to his seat.

"The fine people of the Fourth District have chosen the worthy candidate illinifan999 to be their choice for the next President of the United States!"

Voting:

PackerFanatic-- 28%
illinifan999--72%

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Tyrith

Their skills are the fact that they exist and they get to kill one of us each night. We have to do things proactively in order to find them and kill them, otherwise we've just turned the game into RNG crapshoot land. And we could win that way, but we could also lose that way.

And heck, there's no reason to do it on every odd year anyway. We get two PER TERM. This isn't a discussion we have to have for two more days to begin with. And each thing we push through with a "non-Wolf" assignment is a free clear. We've got a lot more roles we can get out there.

We have to go out and find the wolves to win -- we do not win this game by default. We don't win by default with a seer and a witness, not with a likely four wolves out there. We need more roles, and we need them sooner, not later.

I humbly suggest to my esteemed collegue that "Fools rush in" This battle isn't a sprint Mr. Tyrith, it is a long drawn out war of attrition, and those who plan and predicate their plans on security and safety first tend to live a lot longer.

[PurdueBrad]

Winner, winner, chicken dinner.

A chicken in every pot and a cap in every ass.

Way to go 4'th district!

[Chief Rum]

FIFTH DISTRICT

st.cronin won re-election to his seat.

"The fine people of the Fifth District have chosen the worthy candidate illinifan999 to be their choice for the next President of the United States!"

Voting:

PackerFanatic-- 27%
illinifan999--73%

[mccollins]

Originally Posted by PurdueBrad

Winner, winner, chicken dinner.

A chicken in every pot and a cap in every ass.

Way to go 4'th district!

Sounds like the early workings of another song. [/Spawn 3 reference]

[Chief Rum]

Switching over to the other side of the aisle for a second...

[mccollins]

Good call for the drama

[mccollins]

dola, (though my wife is bout to kill you)

[st.cronin]

SEVENTY THREE PERCENT LOLOLOL

[Tyrith]

Originally Posted by RendeR

I humbly suggest to my esteemed collegue that "Fools rush in" This battle isn't a sprint Mr. Tyrith, it is a long drawn out war of attrition, and those who plan and predicate their plans on security and safety first tend to live a lot longer.

You know why it's a war of attrition? Because every night, THE WOLVES KILL A GOOD GUY. That's why there's some speed to be encouraged in winning the game -- the longer we wait, the less margin of error we have in terms of bodies for if/when we screw up.

[Chief Rum]

EIGHTEENTH DISTRICT

KWhit won a tight race for re-election.

"The fine people of the Eighteenth District have chosen the worthy candidate PackerFanatic to be their choice for the next President of the United States!"

Voting:

PackerFanatic-- 52%
illinifan999--48%

[mccollins]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

SEVENTY THREE PERCENT LOLOLOL

Haha, yeah I didn't understand why your district went for him 1% more than the four more conservative districts.

[mccollins]

Geez, if PF only won the 18th by 4%, I might be able to go to bed :/

[st.cronin]

Because my district rules.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Each villager role that you add becomes much more powerful than the last one. This is a werewolf fact. I have run quite a few games, I know what I'm talking about.

10-2 == 5-1, if you agree with basic math Mr. Cronin. And 5-1 is only MARGINALLY better than 4-0 if as you suggest it is better at all.

As for roles, every single wolf role we allow negates 2-3 villager roles like spies and communications benefits.

Again, how many roles can we possibly legislate that will negate a cunning wolf or a Brutal wolf? SeerComm? oh please.

You're argument is specious, you see a big number like 10 and think BIGGER IS BETTER, when in fact allowing the 2 is the real key element to winning this game. As my Dear friend PB has noted, giving up NO wolf party roles while still gaining 2 every 2 years doesn;t HURT us as a Congress at all, but it utterly paralyzes the Wolf party from doing anything beyond a wolf kill and some voting and double-talk.

Mr. Tyrith, I am apalled at your statement that we don't need to consider this issue for another 2 days. We have the ability to put forth Bills EVERY day, I suggest to you that deciding how and when those Bills will be put forth is indeed of PARAMOUNT importance.

[st.cronin]

Illinifan999 = Ronald Reagan

[Chief Rum]

SEVENTEENTH DISTRICT

Lathum lost a tight race for re-election. A token Democrat representative is now holding the seat.

Lathum supporters believe that the results were influenced.

"The fine people of the Seventeenth District have chosen the worthy candidate PackerFanatic to be their choice for the next President of the United States!"

Voting:

PackerFanatic-- 52%
illinifan999--48%

[Tyrith]

Originally Posted by RendeR

10-2 == 5-1, if you agree with basic math Mr. Cronin. And 5-1 is only MARGINALLY better than 4-0 if as you suggest it is better at all.

That only holds if you assume a linear relationship between the two. Which is precisely the opposite of the point cronin is making.

[Lathum]

WTF???

What the hell does that mean?

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by RendeR

10-2 == 5-1, if you agree with basic math Mr. Cronin. And 5-1 is only MARGINALLY better than 4-0 if as you suggest it is better at all.

My argument is that adding villager roles leads to a geometric progression of value. When constructing a game, to balance it, you have to increase the value of villager roles as their number goes higher. This is a fact. Try and understand what I'm saying. Most things work the other way - money, for example. The 1 millionth dollar you earn is much less valuable than the first dollar you earn = thus, a progressive tax makes sense.

[Chief Rum]

SIXTEENTH DISTRICT

chesapeake won a tight race for re-election.

"The fine people of the Sixteenth District have chosen the worthy candidate PackerFanatic to be their choice for the next President of the United States!"

Voting:

PackerFanatic-- 54%
illinifan999--46%

[chesapeake]

Whoa. That was unexpected.

Congrats, illini. If our liberal districts are going that far south, you're a shoo in.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Lathum

WTF???

What the hell does that mean?

You're not out of the game. Just powerless at the moment. All election losers will receive a PM detailing what's going on (although it's in the rules, too).

[mccollins]

Originally Posted by Lathum

WTF???

What the hell does that mean?

Double checking the rules....

Originally Posted by The Rules

Important: if you lose a congressional election, you are not out of the game. You may still post in both your political thread and participate in the public thread. However, if you are voted out, you cannot vote for bills, nor can you serve as the Leader or the Liaison or the Whip or the Speaker. You can still hold onto any roles you may acquire through bills.

So you're in for 2 more days, no longer liaison, and HAVE to win your next election (on day 4) to stay in the game.

[Chief Rum]

FIFTEENTH DISTRICT

mccollins won his bid for re-election handily.

"The fine people of the Fifteenth District have chosen the worthy candidate PackerFanatic to be their choice for the next President of the United States!"

Voting:

PackerFanatic-- 56%
illinifan999--44%