Mixed Martial Arts Thread (UFC and others)

[BYU 14]

Let me just cut to the chase then, Henderson's comments were classless. End of story.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

Let me just cut to the chase then, Henderson's comments were classless. End of story.

That's where I will draw the line as well. I found Henderson's actions in the ring to be fine and perfectly acceptable.

http://mmajunkie.com/news/15523/dan-...when-i-did.mma

Above is a link where Henderson kind of apologizes and blames his "bad joke" for the backlash. From the perspective of this being an MMA fighter, it's mostly believable.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by Dutch

That's where I will draw the line as well. I found Henderson's actions in the ring to be fine and perfectly acceptable.

http://mmajunkie.com/news/15523/dan-...when-i-did.mma

Above is a link where Henderson kind of apologizes and blames his "bad joke" for the backlash. From the perspective of this being an MMA fighter, it's mostly believable.

I guess I should have just said that earlier. Henderson addresses it fairly well here and he is right, if he had not made that "joke" we wouldn't be discussing it. My whole feeling that is was bush, came from him saying he knew Bisping was out.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Dutch

From the perspective of this being an MMA fighter, it's mostly believable.

I kind of got the other feeling to be honest, that this was an attempt to cover his tracks that I didn't buy, although even as a skeptic I'll admit that reading the quotes might give a different impression than if I had watched him say it in person or something.

edit to add:

Henderson addresses it fairly well here and he is right, if he had not made that "joke" we wouldn't be discussing it

Oh I think you're very right about that, but the "joke" put the situation in an entirely different context. It basically eliminated the ability to give him the benefit of the doubt.

[PilotMan]

I still think that it all boils down to a heat of the moment situation that anyone of us would be hard pressed not to do. Both he and Lesnar had less than professional moments, that were really reactions to the situation as well as the moments leading up to their prospective fights. I know that if I somehow were faced with the same position as either of these two men, that my own actions wouldn't have been far off. Therefore, I can't really make a big deal about it, and certainly won't knock either one of them for it.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

I still think that it all boils down to a heat of the moment situation that anyone of us would be hard pressed not to do. Both he and Lesnar had less than professional moments, that were really reactions to the situation as well as the moments leading up to their prospective fights. I know that if I somehow were faced with the same position as either of these two men, that my own actions wouldn't have been far off. Therefore, I can't really make a big deal about it, and certainly won't knock either one of them for it.

Careful, let's not confuse Henderson with Lesnar. Lesnar is a moron of the 1st degree. Henderson had a moronic moment post-fight. Big difference.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Henderson looked & sounded like a thug on the streets that would be doing prison time if this shit weren't legal. Lesnar looked more like the most marketable character in the history of MMA. Big difference.

Fixed that for you.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Fixed that for you.

heh. Yeah, there is no doubt that Lesnar is a mega-star. Publicly, Dana White is hating Brock's guts, privately, he's loving every minute of the Lesnar cash cow.

But Lesnar is a moron.

[sovereignstar]

Pretty successful moron.

[PilotMan]

Lesnar 1s teh gods of mma.

Seriously, though, Lesnar is a hard working, Midwestern boy, and being from the same region, I can't help but feel kinship.

I really don't care if he brings the heel aspect of it from pro wrestling. His preparation and complete dedication to the sport, along with his tools of the trade should make him an icon for the sport, not the goat. How many guys have the skills but never prove themselves? And how many hard working guys out there, just don't have the skills?

Lesnar v. Fedor will happen late this year, I am sure. And it will be worth watching for sure. Probably the single biggest fight of the year. No matter what happens there, it will be worth watching.

[DeToxRox]

I am surprised the debate is still waging on over this Hendo thing, when you consider somehow the two biggest egos in MMA, Dana White and Tito Ortiz, have put their hatred aside and Tito looks like Franklin's opponent at 103.

[PilotMan]

I still can't believe that the UFC is still pushing Franklin as a Main Event draw.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

I am surprised the debate is still waging on over this Hendo thing, when you consider somehow the two biggest egos in MMA, Dana White and Tito Ortiz, have put their hatred aside and Tito looks like Franklin's opponent at 103.

Might have a little more interest if Ortiz had won a fight in the last three years

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Might have a little more interest if Ortiz had won a fight in the last three years

lol well said

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

I still can't believe that the UFC is still pushing Franklin as a Main Event draw.

+1, though a win here likely gives him main event credibility again in the eyes of many fans.

I am thinking that Dana likes Franklin as a "name" opponent, who is skilled enough to beat Tito if Ortiz is not in prime shape. If Franklin can knock him off look for him to get the winner of Machida / Rampage.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

+1, though a win here likely gives him main event credibility again in the eyes of many fans.

I am thinking that Dana likes Franklin as a "name" opponent, who is skilled enough to beat Tito if Ortiz is not in prime shape. If Franklin can knock him off look for him to get the winner of Machida / Rampage.

Franklin is dodging Luis Cane, who would wipe the floor with him in my opinion. Apparently Franklin thinks beating Cane doesn't do anything for his title chances, but beating Tito does. I think he'll have to beat Cane eventually if he wants the title, and I also think he'll fail trying, that said, 103 doesn't have anyone who can really push a PPV and Tito still can, whether he sucks or not.

I'd have loved for 103 to be Wanderlei vs Chuck though in Chuck's last fight. That would've been amazing.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Might have a little more interest if Ortiz had won a fight in the last three years

I am sure he has been working on his takedowns extensively with Jenna in his time away

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

I am sure he has been working on his takedowns extensively with Jenna in his time away

Jenna might be easier to take down then Houston Alexander.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

Franklin is dodging Luis Cane, who would wipe the floor with him in my opinion. Apparently Franklin thinks beating Cane doesn't do anything for his title chances, but beating Tito does. I think he'll have to beat Cane eventually if he wants the title, and I also think he'll fail trying, that said, 103 doesn't have anyone who can really push a PPV and Tito still can, whether he sucks or not.

I'd have loved for 103 to be Wanderlei vs Chuck though in Chuck's last fight. That would've been amazing.

I think you are right, but unfortunately a win over Tito likely allows him to sidestep Cane. don't forget Dana does tend to play favorites and Franklin is one of them.

I would love one last brawl between those two and it should be the final fight for each. I am actually getting worried about Wanderlei. He has taken some serious abuse over the years.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

Jenna might be easier to take down then Houston Alexander.

Danny, Jenna is easier to take down than a Cardboard cutout of Houston Alexander.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

I think you are right, but unfortunately a win over Tito likely allows him to sidestep Cane. don't forget Dana does tend to play favorites and Franklin is one of them.

I would love one last brawl between those two and it should be the final fight for each. I am actually getting worried about Wanderlei. He has taken some serious abuse over the years.

You're probably right about Franklin not fighting Cane. I mean obviously Franklin beating Tito could put him vs the Machida/Shogun winner. And asusming Machida wins, which I can't see him not winning, he would absolutely punk Franklin, so I guess he'd get what he had coming regardless.

Cane though is for real, and I can't wait to watch him continue to develop.

As far as Wandy is concerned, you are right, he has taken way too punishment lately. I'd hate for him keep fighting past the point of being effective, but the rumor with him right now is Wanderlei vs Bisping at 105 in England.

Poor Bisping if true, because Wandy is going to go for the kill, and if he connects and KO's Bisping, that'd be it for him in the UFC.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

Danny, Jenna is easier to take down than a Cardboard cutout of Houston Alexander.

Haha. Well played.

[Calis]

Yeah if you at look at 103 they don't have a lot of options. Kampmann vs. Swick in no way can headline an event, and the only other fight with any name value is Trigg vs. Koscheck. Either one of those would be disasters.

I think Franklin is right to avoid Cane for now. He has very little to gain from fighting him, and a lot to lose. Cane should be a top contender right now, but I don't think he's in many people's minds as such. The general fan will think Tito is a lot bigger win than they would Cane.

Tito hasn't been relevant for years. He'll be a good gatekeeper for the division, but I think between his injuries and his ego he'll not be much of a threat. I actually think him vs. Franklin is an interesting matchup to see who's slid the furthest. It's a decent quality win for either of them.

[PilotMan]

Yeah, but the whole idea of fighters dodging other fighters starts to sound like boxing. Then we have nothing but corruption and a slew of titles that nobody cares about. And name fights come once a year instead of once or twice a month. In fact, I think that is one reason why MMA has been on the rise. Guys take losses and keep going, but they fight anybody around.

[Calis]

Do we specifically know that Franklin turned down Cane? I hadn't heard that.

Otherwise it doesn't sound like a duck to me. Neither guy is a top 5, so it's not like we're deciding a #1 contender as neither really have any quality wins at 205. Cane certainly seems to have a load of potential, but wins over Lamber and Sokoudju aren't really awe inspiring.

I don't want to see ducking either, but I guess I don't see that Franklin vs. Cane is overly more relevant than Franklin vs. Tito. I'd like to see Cane get someone a level higher than that, but then again there's not many people available right now, so maybe Franklin is the best option available.

Having Rashad/Rampage on the shelf for so long has messed things up all around in the LHW division imo. You've now pushed Shogun into a title shot who hasn't earned it, whereas ideally a Shogun/Cane fight would be incredibly telling for both guys.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Calis

Having Rashad/Rampage on the shelf for so long has messed things up all around in the LHW division imo. You've now pushed Shogun into a title shot who hasn't earned it, whereas ideally a Shogun/Cane fight would be incredibly telling for both guys.

That's a good point too. 205 is pretty deep, we shouldn't be searching for title contenders at this weight. The field is thick.

[DaddyTorgo]

hxxp://www.fightlinker.com/history-excuses-hendos-second-punch.mma#more-8447

"With Dan Henderson’s flying forearm last weekend creating a tidal wave of negativity, it’s time to take a look back at legitimate late hits. You see, this isn’t the first - or last - time someone will get hit while unconscious. The history of MMA is littered with ‘extra’ strikes; the idea that Henderson/Bisping is the most egregious example just reeks of yellow journalism attempting to cover for botched UFC 100 coverage.
For all of those who need a refresher course on actual borderline despicable moments, there are many GIFs and videos after the jump."

[sovereignstar]

................................................

[thesloppy]

I thought Hendo's blow was perfectly acceptable. As noted, there's been plenty worse, and it's the ref's job to stop the fight. These dudes spend years of their life training to get some approximation of a 'killer instinct' and comparatively (or literally) no time training to recognize or stop at sign of knockout, so I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, that they're not in the frame of mind to say "hmmm, it appears he could be knocked out, I shall pause for a second and turn down my rate of attack"

That said, the comments after were stupid, but even at the time I thought he might not be entirely serious. I don't think you can look at that situation in a vacuum either, as Henderson and Bisping had just spent several weeks in very close contact, with the weight of shit-talking HEAVILY in Bisping's favor, who talked trash about Henderson's team, his country, and occasionally even Henderson himself, while Henderson mainly kept his mouth shut, with a smug, knowing smile very similar to the one he wore after the fight. If the guy wants to flick Bisping a little shit, after proving who should be doing the talking, I don't think it was entirely out of line with what was going on in T.U.F., all season long.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

I don't think it was entirely out of line with what was going on in T.U.F., all season long.

I must have missed the part where Bisping sucker punched Henderson while he was asleep. I would have thought that would have made the news somewhere but maybe some celebrity death bumped it off the front page or something.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I must have missed the part where Bisping sucker punched Henderson while he was asleep. I would have thought that would have made the news somewhere but maybe some celebrity death bumped it off the front page or something.

If the fight is still going, it's not a sucker punch. Henderson doesn't control when the fight is over or not, the ref does. Those who think Henderson shouldn't have hit Bsiping appear to be operating under the assumption that ultimately Henderson wants Bisping to be 'OK'. Henderson wants Bisping to be 'Unconscious' until the ref tells him he's won. That is his job, that is what he's being paid for. As stupid as it sounds, just because someone looks unconscious, that doesn't mean he is, and it's the ref who makes that determination. Likewise, as a fighter, you're not trained to recognize when someone is hurt and slow up. The more hurt they are, the harder you hit them, and the more you hit them, until what again? The ref stops the fight. The ultimate goal IS for one guy to hit the other guy until someone is declared the winner, yes? To vilify Henderson for doing exactly what he and every other fighter have trained to do, and hundreds have done worse before him, is silly.

In contrast to the loads of examples linked above, and anecdotal evidence from everyone remembering similar examples, let's try the opposite. How many of you can remember a brutal knockout blow, where the guy didn't follow up at all, and/or immediately stopped to check if his opponent was OK, before the ref had called the fight? I bet that's a little more uncommon than throwing an extra punch.

[Calis]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

That said, the comments after were stupid, but even at the time I thought he might not be entirely serious.

This part I do agree with. Everyone I watched this with at the time completely took his comment to be in a joking manner. He might have had a pretty good idea that Bisping was out, but he sure as hell wasn't taking any chances. I'm sure he'd rather catch some flack this way than have something crazy happen where Bisping popped back up or the ref did something idiotic which we've seen before, and he end losing. With the way refs have been lately, I don't blame a guy for being 100% sure the fight is over.

Honestly at this point it sounds like they're reaching to make this into a possible big knock against MMA. It seems like some of the MMA sites and people are trying to push it to become news, and no one outside of it has even taken a second look.

The sport is not where it was 5 years ago. It's going to take something much more blatant than this to cause an uproar. Babalu's choke on Heath had a decent chance if that had been on the general PPV and a big event. It was obviously a much more deliberate attack.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I must have missed the part where Bisping sucker punched Henderson while he was asleep. I would have thought that would have made the news somewhere but maybe some celebrity death bumped it off the front page or something.

I would also take this to mean that you did not watch the Ultimate Fighter this season. I don't think you can judge his comments, or lump the punch and the comments together, without doing so....though you can certainly continue to judge the punch any way you like.

[Calis]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

In contrast to the loads of examples linked above, and anecdotal evidence from everyone remembering similar examples, let's try the opposite. How many of you can remember a brutal knockout blow, where the guy didn't follow up at all, and/or immediately stopped to check if his opponent was OK, before the ref had called the fight? I bet that's a little more uncommon than throwing an extra punch.

I'm not arguing the point here because I agree that there's nothing to this, but my favorite example of this is Joachim Hansen fighting Imanari at Bushido, I believe it was 8. Imanari shoots and Hansen drills him with an absolutely vicious knee that he knew immediately put him out. He immediately after throwing the knee turned and calmly walked to the corner. It's a pretty common highlight, and a classic MMA moment.

Although even then I think the ref was slow to stop and Hansen actually ran back after Imanari because the fight hadn't been stopped. This really just further proves the point. Refs seem to be completely at a loss when someone does stop fighting like that.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by Calis

This part I do agree with. Everyone I watched this with at the time completely took his comment to be in a joking manner.

That's Henderson's 'humor', or lack thereof, and like you say, I don't think it was a shock that it was his idea of a joke, to anyone familiar with him.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by Calis

I'm not arguing the point here because I agree that there's nothing to this, but my favorite example of this is Joachim Hansen fighting Imanari at Bushido, I believe it was 8. Imanari shoots and Hansen drills him with an absolutely vicious knee that he knew immediately put him out. He immediately after throwing the knee turned and calmly walked to the corner. It's a pretty common highlight, and a classic MMA moment.

I do know and love that highlight! But that instance (and similar) is like turning your back before hitting the three-pointer, mostly theatrics and not so much concern for the opponent's health.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I must have missed the part where Bisping sucker punched Henderson while he was asleep. I would have thought that would have made the news somewhere but maybe some celebrity death bumped it off the front page or something.

Also, FTR, you should watch Ultimate Fighter, because it's a damn fine show, and someone getting sucker punched in their sleep would be just about par for the course.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

I would also take this to mean that you did not watch the Ultimate Fighter this season. I don't think you can judge his comments, or lump the punch and the comments together, without doing so....though you can certainly continue to judge the punch any way you like.

Did he believe, as he said publicly & with great glee, that Bisping was out when he delivered the blow? That's all that matters afaic, everything else just sounds like a lot of excuses for low class behavior to me.

Nobody has to agree, nobody has to see it like I see it. But for me, it really puts a pretty big dent into the impression I had developed that this MMA today was pretty much a completely legitimate organized sport that bore little resemblence to its NHB roots. The blame for that shaken impression doesn't rest with Henderson, Dana, or the UFC ... it lies with me for forming that impression in the first place. My bad.

[thesloppy]

Well, I can guarantee you there will always be douchebags in MMA, and even though I might say I'm 'familiar' with Henderson, I wouldn't go so far as to say he's not a douchebag. NFL players are getting more ridiculous as personalities, the bigger the sport gets, but I don't know that you can judge the legitimacy of the organization based on that (although you could judge it in other ways based on those same factors)....people are encouraged to be pretty fucking ridiculous, in general these days.

...and for the record, I don't consider MMA necessarily all that legitimate either, I know Dana and the UFC have set their sights on the NFL and the NBA, but right now the better analogy seems like (pre-Tyson) '80s-era boxing, exactly where that falls in the legitimacy tables, is still questionable.

[DeToxRox]

Nix Tito. The new Main Event for 103 is Henderson vs Franklin II.

[DeToxRox]

Also, Dream 10 today was outstanding. Some BRUTAL KO's today and a huge upset. For sure check it out if you can.

[DeToxRox]

From Dream 10 today .. This was a fucking BRUTAL KO with a few extra shots after.

[sovereignstar]

Anyone interested in getting an invite to a "private" MMA torrent site. I've got two that came with my little donation. Loads of stuff. I get most of my non-UFC stuff through this as it's harder to find. PM me your e-mail addy if you are. First come, first serve. And I am not going to answer any questions about torrents or how safe they are/aren't, so don't go there!

Edit: Invites = DEAD

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

Nix Tito. The new Main Event for 103 is Henderson vs Franklin II.

Ugh, that's terrible. Of course, it gives Franklin a clear chance to prove something at 205, while Henderson gets relegated to a fight with another guy below him in the rankings. A loss and he will never see that title shot. Hopefully a win gives him a title shot, but it's hard to believe that a Franklin win would put him anywhere near a title shot.

[JS19]

Little something in Henderson's defense here. I could be wrong, but if i remember correctly, in one of the Arlovski/Sylvia fights, possibly the 2nd one, I remember Arlovksi knocking Sylvia good and sending him to the mat, me and my buddies, and I would assume Arlovski too, thought he was done for, but Sylvia popped back up and knocked Arlovski and finished him off. Point is, you never know what can happen, fights not over til the ref says so.

[Calis]

Sounds like Barnett is out of the Fedor fight. Unsure of what the injury is but seen it reported several places.

They have asked Belfort to step up to replace him.

I wonder what's up. Barnett has been dancing around this fight for quite a while and I wondered if it would even happen. This sure puts a dent in that PPV.

EDIT: looks like it is actually the CSAC stopping this for Barnett having a "positive" result, just haven't said for what. Nice job getting caugh again Josh.

[SirFozzie]

Yeah, the only two people that Fedor would face is Vitor, or Bobby Lashley

[Calis]

Rough for Vitor. Not only a middleweight but has been training for a fight there and has two weeks to prepare. Can't say I'm at all intrigued by that fight.

Lashley apparently already said no. Good decision. He seems to possibly have a decent future ahead of him and taking that fight would not help it at all.

[PilotMan]

Well, there's no way that White let's him get away now. I know that Barnett and Fedor really weren't all that excited to go at it anyway. I guess that they are friends. Really kills Affliction, and after this fight, and after Fedor leaves, then I guess they really won't have any way to go but out.

[TLK]

They better pull something out of their ass or they lost my $44.95.