Pro Wrestling Discussion Thread **Spoilers Possible**

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

VINCE MCMAHON ANNOUNCES RETIREMENT FROM WWE | PWInsider.com

You could sink a battleship, or ten, with all the flaws of Vincent Kennedy McMahon.

That said, I'd say the odds are better of the company collapsing over the next few years than there are of the product improving.

I'm not at all sure that the WWE survives to this day, even in the current weakened state, without the sheer force of will and final say so of its leader.

Those TV deals are just a money printer for the business. And many are for years to come. They are also sitting on so much valuable IP. It's a business that I don't think you can possibly fuck up. And they did bring in some legit business people to handle that side of things knowing how hold Vince was getting.

I think maybe there will be an initial shock and the stock dropping, but you honestly can't book the show any worse, and their audience has been falling for over a decade now.

The guy is 76 years old already with a history of steroid use. Even if he wasn't forced out, I don't think he was going to be handling day-to-day that much longer.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Does this may it more or less likely that a sale happens soon?

It really feels like they've been positioning for a sale for the past few years. And you probably can't find a better time to be a live content creator with a vast library of content and valuable IP than now. My guess is Comcast/NBCUniversal buys them up in a year or two and just makes them one of the bedrocks of Peacock.

[Carman Bulldog]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Ok. I've gotten several hours of COVID-infused "sleep" to try to dampen my disappointment at that result, but I'm still not pleased with it.

So you get angry,snarky, defensive Foz instead of clear-thinking Foz.

The only vehicle to have more people step off, confused and crying then the Eddie Kingston bandwagon is the infamous porn BangBus.

Jericho and Kingston was a battle of pro wrestling and sports entertainment. And folks, nothing says sports entertainment like a hastily rushed main event that has the wrong guy win and everyone wondering "What was the purpose of that?". All it needed was Tony S. yelling "Folks, we're out of time, we'll see you on Thun...er.. Rampage!"

Maybe from now on, we should let super important matches lead off the show instead of at the end, because well, one of the problems with a show that offers its performers such freedom is that timing and time management can rear its head...

Honestly, I know, "In Coach Tony we trust", but I just don't get it.

Pretty sure the point of Jericho winning was to even the feud at 1-1. I think they allow it to cool off for a period but they'll eventually have a winner take all blow off down the road. If Eddie wins on Wednesday night, he's up 2-0 and there is no point in a trilogy.

The first match from Revolution was a love letter to pro wrestling and specifically AJPW, this match was pure sports entertainment overbooked garbage. I think that was really the point though (ie. this time the sports entertainer prevails via sports entertainment), but perhaps the whole idea of it was a little too meta.

I have no real issue with Jericho wining and things being a bit of a schmoz although I agree that could have still been the outcome, yet have done some things differently with a better result.

The botched Kingston-Jericho-Sammy spot after the match also left a real lasting impression that I think hurt people's opinion of it.

[JonInMiddleGA]

G1 Night 4, Jay White vs Ishii might be some of the best work White has done ... and I don't mean in the ring.

He's almost at an MJF level verbally during the match and what he's better at than MJF is connecting what he says/does with physical stuff. The first half of this match is really indicative of how good he is able to be.

Also good on night 4? The rare appearance of sadistic violent Toru Yano. The Clown Prince and Master Thief of NJPW brought back a lot of his previous persona, something that a lot of current fans have really rarely or never seen. If you've never seen that side of Yano, this is a relatively short but interesting watch.

edit to add: I posted about this match before it even finished. That will be one of the 4-5 best matches of the tournament almost certainly and what really strikes me at the end of it is that everybody involved -- Gedo and Red Shoes included -- played their parts really well. Everybody brought their A game for this.

And the post-match promo is GOLD, something that almost certainly ONLY happens because he's an evil gaijin. A Japanese heel couldn't have done that.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I'll just dolapost here about something cause I think it's that important.

NJPW has -- as we've discussed here aplenty -- a pretty high bar for entry.

If someone really wants to get into it, really wants to understand the characters beyond just spot match level, the post-match press stuff they do is pretty damned important. You cannot really understand the characters without what they reveal in the interview room. From the weirdness to the obnoxious to the underdeveloped to the perplexing to the Cena-esque, since they don't really do skits and set pieces the way U.S. companies do, the interview room is where alllll that stuff is put across.

There's nothing wrong with just watching NJPW as spot matches, you'll get some bangers. But if you really want to get the full experience, the interview stuff is really important, things that happen in the ring will make a lot more sense a lot more often.

[albionmoonlight]

I'm in my mid-40s, so I came of age during the Vince-dominated national WWF Superstars era. That's what wresting was for me (who has two thumbs and convinced his parents to let him go to No Holds Barred on opening night?).

But I wonder if wrestling was ever supposed to be a homogeneous national thing. Its DNA is highly regional. And Vince, through force of will, made it national. But that seems to be going away. And Vince retiring will probably make that happen even sooner.

With the proliferation of alternative means of watching different promotions from around the world, the regions don't need to be geographic anymore. But unlike, say, football where every attempt to create alternative leagues ends up spending a lot of money until we go back to the NFL default, I think that wrestling's natural state may be multiple promotions with dedicated fan bases and casual fans coming and going as things become more and less interesting in the different areas.

Like Jon said, Vince had a boatload of flaws and then some. But I don't think that we have a national wrestling promotion without his insane dedication to making it happen.

[RainMaker]

I think with cable becoming popular, a national brand was inevitable. He realized it much sooner than everyone else.

And I'm not sure wrestling would go back to being regional. Even the regional promotions that exist rely on bringing in wrestlers with national appeal. Our local Chicago promotion constantly fills its shows with former WWE, AEW, and Impact guys. They're selling tickets because people have seen Ace Austin in New Japan or Impact.

What I do think we might see is brands becoming more targeted. New Japan is what you watch if you want to see the best wrestlers and it taken seriously. WWE for a campy product with broad appeal. AEW maybe somewhere in the middle.

[RainMaker]

Any thoughts on the Jonathan Gresham stuff? Supposedly unhappy and asked for his release from ROH/AEW.

Sort of feel like the guy thinks he's a bigger deal than he is. I like his work in the ring, but he's also incredibly short. I got to see him at a local Chicago show and I'm not kidding you when I say I think he's like 5'5 or maybe even shorter. It was actually pretty jarring to see him next to fans.

Not saying you can't get over and have a nice career, but you have to be realistic. Even Daniel Bryan isn't that short. And Gresham doesn't have a fraction of the charisma.

Just seems like a guy blowing up his wrestling career.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Any thoughts on the Jonathan Gresham stuff? Supposedly unhappy and asked for his release from ROH/AEW.

Sort of feel like the guy thinks he's a bigger deal than he is. I like his work in the ring, but he's also incredibly short. I got to see him at a local Chicago show and I'm not kidding you when I say I think he's like 5'5 or maybe even shorter. It was actually pretty jarring to see him next to fans.

Not saying you can't get over and have a nice career, but you have to be realistic. Even Daniel Bryan isn't that short. And Gresham doesn't have a fraction of the charisma.

Just seems like a guy blowing up his wrestling career.

He's always seemed a bit ... taken with himself. That's not really all that new a thing.

And there seems to be an element of .. social politics ... to the situation given a recent comment/complaint. My own estimation is that perhaps he thought he'd be a little more catered to than the reality turned out to be.

And he's married to Jordyne Grace let's not forget, Lord knows she hasn't exactly endeared herself to much of anyone lately.

He's a skilled technical wrestler but also has all the personality of drying paint, compounded by the (lack of) size issue. It happens.

The "anti-charisma charisma" thing sorta worked (eventually) for Dean Malenko. That was in a different era. (And probably helped because, by contemporary accounts from his peers, his backstage personality was not nearly the Iceman character he played. In effect, the lack of a gimmick WAS a gimmick)

[JonInMiddleGA]

re: the Jay White post-match promo on Night 4

Kevin Kelly explained on night 5 that it was delivered in ... Clapanese

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

The "anti-charisma charisma" thing sorta worked (eventually) for Dean Malenko. That was in a different era. (And probably helped because, by contemporary accounts from his peers, his backstage personality was not nearly the Iceman character he played. In effect, the lack of a gimmick WAS a gimmick)

I would also say there was a ceiling for Malenko with that gimmick. Solid midcard guy who could make opponents look like a million bucks. But he wasn't going to be your world champion. He wasn't the guy drawing the house. And I think that's the same for Gresham.

Not sure what the plan is, but if ROH is looking for a TV deal of sorts, Claudio is a much better champion to get behind too. He has name recognition and looks like a million bucks. Reminds me of the quote Kevin Owens gave about Low-Ki not wanting to lose. "I could understand not wanting to lose to me, but Claudio? Claudio's a horse!".

[JonInMiddleGA]

Home from the wrestling weekend.

Any number of interesting (to me anyhow) takeaways from the two shows we saw.

Probably the biggest is having a better understanding of the difference between the coveted TV demographics and the people who were actually the butts in seats at Summerslam.

That same difference gave me a better understanding probably about why Vince did a lot of stuff that seemed to make no sense.

It was definitely a spectacle to see and experience, which has nothing to do with quality of it as a wrestling show.

Among the many things that struck was the almost complete divergence of the crowd between Summerslam and the NJPW show. If you ever wanted to see what the IWC looks like, that NJPW show was the place. It's a more age & ethnically diverse crowd that I believe the IWC would be stereotyped as but it was probably 98% geek. (I ain't exempting myself from that, so everybody keep their knickers unknotted)

By contrast, I'd say 90% or more of the WWE audience was entirely (or close) to kayfabe. Not very far from going to a rural indy show in north Georgia in that respect.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Home from the wrestling weekend.

Any number of interesting (to me anyhow) takeaways from the two shows we saw.

Probably the biggest is having a better understanding of the difference between the coveted TV demographics and the people who were actually the butts in seats at Summerslam.

That same difference gave me a better understanding probably about why Vince did a lot of stuff that seemed to make no sense.

It was definitely a spectacle to see and experience, which has nothing to do with quality of it as a wrestling show.

Among the many things that struck was the almost complete divergence of the crowd between Summerslam and the NJPW show. If you ever wanted to see what the IWC looks like, that NJPW show was the place. It's a more age & ethnically diverse crowd that I believe the IWC would be stereotyped as but it was probably 98% geek. (I ain't exempting myself from that, so everybody keep their knickers unknotted)

By contrast, I'd say 90% or more of the WWE audience was entirely (or close) to kayfabe. Not very far from going to a rural indy show in north Georgia in that respect.

I've found in the past there there has been a huge difference in the WWE audience between a TV taping/PPV and house shows. Perhaps with the lack of quality writing of the product in recent years, that they've driven away some of the smarter audience to other programs, and it's mostly the house show type audience that is loyal to the end?

Hopefully with HHH as head of creative, we'll see some improvements with the WWE programming. I watched NXT for years after I had given up on watching WWE because it was still good.

[RainMaker]

Summerslam wasn't a bad show. Few interesting things:

-The new stable of Bayley, Dakota Kai, and Io Shirai. Never understood why they didn't use Io more, she's their best women's wrestler.

-Becky turning face was long overdue. Still have no idea why they took a wrestler who was as hot as Becky was in the business and just destroyed everything that made her gimmick work. You'd think the Austin heel turn would have been a lesson.

- They sure made Riddle look like a total geek. For a company that has practically no top babyfaces anymore if Brock leaves, I don't quite get what the plan is.

- Theory looked like an even bigger geek. There has to be a failed cash-in coming.

- Don't know much about Logan Paul but he sure looked pretty damn good for someone just starting out. Still think he should have been a heel, but feels like he might have turned that crowd around by the end. Some pretty impressive and risky spots he pulled off.

- The announcers were fine to listen to for once. Maybe it's not having Vince screaming in their ear, but Michael Cole isn't that bad when he gets to do his thing. Now if they can kill off the weird buzzwords and dump the 10 million camera cuts, the show would be much more watchable.

- Brock/Roman was much better than I thought it would be. Just brutal, violent match by two big guys. Thought both came out looking like a million bucks.

- With Roman going over a seemingly invincible Lesnar, who can possibly beat him and pass the 2 year title reign rub on to them? They are playing up the Drew fight in the UK, so maybe that's where it'll happen. Or I guess wait for Cody to come back and put him over at Mania. Although that's 8 more months of part-time Roman as champ which feels like it'd be hard to pull off.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Mota

I've found in the past there there has been a huge difference in the WWE audience between a TV taping/PPV and house shows. Perhaps with the lack of quality writing of the product in recent years, that they've driven away some of the smarter audience to other programs, and it's mostly the house show type audience that is loyal to the end?

The crowd I saw last night, honestly, seemed ... almost incapable of knowing quality from not quality.

I've seen "smarter" (to the business) crowds at indy houseshows in bumfuck nowhere. I'm talking "wrestling is real but the moonshot was fake" fans. The subtle distinction I might give last night's crowd is that some of them do kinda sorta know there's a certain amount of fakery/illusion, they simply give zero fucks.

Part of that is the concentration of single-digit aged kids. But part of it isn't.

One of the many realizations I had last night was that Vince was probably right to ignore the IWC entirely when it came to putting butts in seats, at least for PPV-level shows.

Those people were there to pop for intro music, chant a few off-color things, mark for the personalities they like, lose track of which competitor they were cheering/booing. And to buy merch. Oh dear GOD at the amount of merch.
The number of grown adults carrying replica belts alone was staggering.

And I ain't even hatin'. They had fun.
But the stuff that bothers some of us? They couldn't possibly care less.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

- They sure made Riddle look like a total geek. For a company that has practically no top babyfaces anymore if Brock leaves, I don't quite get what the plan is.

My guess is that was to write him off until Orton comes back. Whether that's to dethrone the Usos or

- Theory looked like an even bigger geek. There has to be a failed cash-in coming.

Based on the IWC afterwards, I'm apparently the only dumbass who thought he DID cash (watching in real time in person) right then & there. I assume commentary or something said otherwise, but that's not something I had in the stadium.

- Don't know much about Logan Paul but he sure looked pretty damn good for someone just starting out. Still think he should have been a heel, but feels like he might have turned that crowd around by the end. Some pretty impressive and risky spots he pulled off.

He'll be a much better heel than face but he was making it work. Surprised me how familiar the crowd was with him but they were mild once his entrance finished. They did however chant the insult about the size of Miz's, uh, netheregions. With extreme gusto. He did have the majority won over by the end of the match, and the amount of the crowd favoring him grew minute by minute. I mean, you could feel it shifting his way (after basically treating him like a heel after the match started)

Brock/Roman was much better than I thought it would be. Just brutal, violent match by two big guys. Thought both came out looking like a million bucks.

Things I never thought I'd say about wrestling? "I enjoyed Lesnar's performance" is high on that list, but here we are. He looked to me like he was having a blast, and it was infectious afaic.

[RainMaker]

I chalk up the Logan Paul stuff to me just being old and out of touch now I guess. Same thing happened when they brought in Bad Bunny. Had no clue who that was but apparently he sold a ton of merch and popped ratings. Just a celebrity for a demographic that is foreign to me.

Maybe Theory did cash-in. A lot was happening but they usually announce it to make it official. I figure they timed him getting hit at the exact moment he was handing over the briefcase to mean it wasn't official.

I guess one benefit of having the MitB out there is it's a way they can split up the belts again. Technically, doesn't MitB just allow you to cash in on one championship?

[Mota]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

The crowd I saw last night, honestly, seemed ... almost incapable of knowing quality from not quality.

I've seen "smarter" (to the business) crowds at indy houseshows in bumfuck nowhere. I'm talking "wrestling is real but the moonshot was fake" fans. The subtle distinction I might give last night's crowd is that some of them do kinda sorta know there's a certain amount of fakery/illusion, they simply give zero fucks.

Part of that is the concentration of single-digit aged kids. But part of it isn't.

One of the many realizations I had last night was that Vince was probably right to ignore the IWC entirely when it came to putting butts in seats, at least for PPV-level shows.

Those people were there to pop for intro music, chant a few off-color things, mark for the personalities they like, lose track of which competitor they were cheering/booing. And to buy merch. Oh dear GOD at the amount of merch.
The number of grown adults carrying replica belts alone was staggering.

And I ain't even hatin'. They had fun.
But the stuff that bothers some of us? They couldn't possibly care less.

Everything you said there is a great summary of the WWE fan. I think when you put out a product that appeals to the lowest common denominator, eventually that becomes your demographic.

No one over the age of 14 should ever bring a replica title to a wrestling show.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Mota

Everything you said there is a great summary of the WWE fan. I think when you put out a product that appeals to the lowest common denominator, eventually that becomes your demographic.

But the job is to make money. And good Lord they were printing it on Saturday.

What Saturday reinforced was that I'm not their target audience. And they're more successful because of that fact. The former isn't a new concept for me but the latter has never been quite so crystal clear in my mind.

I can wish for this or wish for that, but at the end of the day following all of my wishes aren't going to make them more successful. They'd have a higher quality product that induces fewer cringes, but they'd make less money with it.

[RainMaker]

I still think they'd be making more money if they booked better. Probably wouldn't have seen such a massive decline in the wrestling business over the past 20 years. And they don't have any real stars besides Roman who are under 40 (and he feels like he has one foot out the door).

The company will be fine as long as media rights are still bonkers. But in 5-10 years, who is going to sellout Wrestlemania for them? Your headliner this year was 57-year-old Stone Cold. There's going to be a point where guys like Goldberg, Austin, Undertaker, Rock, etc are going to be in wheelchairs.

I think their strategy of cranking out live content has been smart. Same with branding these wrestlers so that their intellectual property is worth a lot. It is annoying to hear the announcer scream "Seth Freakin Rollins" 50 times, but I understand it from a business perspective.

I guess I'm sort of torn on things. They seem to do an incredible job squeezing every dime out of what they have. But I also wonder how much money they've left on the table by not creating any new stars and chasing off their younger audience.

Then again, maybe wrestling is just a niche product and there is only so much you can do with it.

[RainMaker]

Really not enjoying the new G1 format. Just diluting what is normally a great tournament.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I still think they'd be making more money if they booked better. Probably wouldn't have seen such a massive decline in the wrestling business over the past 20 years. And they don't have any real stars besides Roman who are under 40 (and he feels like he has one foot out the door).

The company will be fine as long as media rights are still bonkers. But in 5-10 years, who is going to sellout Wrestlemania for them? Your headliner this year was 57-year-old Stone Cold. There's going to be a point where guys like Goldberg, Austin, Undertaker, Rock, etc are going to be in wheelchairs.

I think their strategy of cranking out live content has been smart. Same with branding these wrestlers so that their intellectual property is worth a lot. It is annoying to hear the announcer scream "Seth Freakin Rollins" 50 times, but I understand it from a business perspective.

I guess I'm sort of torn on things. They seem to do an incredible job squeezing every dime out of what they have. But I also wonder how much money they've left on the table by not creating any new stars and chasing off their younger audience.

Then again, maybe wrestling is just a niche product and there is only so much you can do with it.

This discussion we are having is already outdated though. With HHH in charge of creative, we're much more likely to have a product that will have a bit more direction, and be a lot less "randomized" by the constant VKM re-writes.

I haven't watched the product in years, but I'm going to keep a closer look for it now. Apparently tonight's Raw is supposed to dictate some changes to the product.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Idle G1 thought, courtesy of my offspring

While Tanga Loa is out, Tama Tonga's new partner should be Danhausen:
Evil/Nice and The Good Bad Guy.

Yes, the new G1 format allows the mind to wander

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Mota

This discussion we are having is already outdated though. With HHH in charge of creative, we're much more likely to have a product that will have a bit more direction, and be a lot less "randomized" by the constant VKM re-writes.

I haven't watched the product in years, but I'm going to keep a closer look for it now. Apparently tonight's Raw is supposed to dictate some changes to the product.

I would be shocked if Vince still didn't have a huge impact on the product. The guy still owns the controlling shares and his life is WWE. Just find it hard to believe he's out playing golf now.

They'll throw a bone to HHH and give him some control, but I'd be shocked if Vince wasn't still calling all the shots.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I would be shocked if Vince still didn't have a huge impact on the product. The guy still owns the controlling shares and his life is WWE. Just find it hard to believe he's out playing golf now.

They'll throw a bone to HHH and give him some control, but I'd be shocked if Vince wasn't still calling all the shots.

If that really is the case in a publicly traded company.....there could be issues. Imagine buying stock in a company and finding out that secretly a guy that was very publicly sent off after a major scandal was still the one calling all the shots. It would be a bold move. It would even be a bold move for a McMahon.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by dubb93

If that really is the case in a publicly traded company.....there could be issues. Imagine buying stock in a company and finding out that secretly a guy that was very publicly sent off after a major scandal was still the one calling all the shots. It would be a bold move. It would even be a bold move for a McMahon.

Who's going to stop him?

Every story I've read about Vince is that WWE is his life and he has no hobbies at all. Just skeptical that he decided to call it a day and is sipping cocktails watching Netflix.

[stevew]

So what’s up with this Rhonda Rousey suspension story? Is it a work or a shoot? Assume it’s part of the storyline but it’s also showing up on weird outlets.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by stevew

So what’s up with this Rhonda Rousey suspension story? Is it a work or a shoot? Assume it’s part of the storyline but it’s also showing up on weird outlets.

Storyline way to keep her off TV for a few weeks. She's supposedly booked for the UK stadium show.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Among the unlikely highlights of this year's G1 Climax have been the KENTA promos backstage hyping his book.

[RainMaker]

KENTA is incredible and I will never understand how WWE dropped the ball with him.

I'm also really digging Ospreay. Had not seen a lot of him before now making sure I catch every match. Thought he made Finlay look great and could probably put a 4 star match on with a broomstick if he had to.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

KENTA is incredible and I will never understand how WWE dropped the ball with him.

I'm also really digging Ospreay. Had not seen a lot of him before now making sure I catch every match. Thought he made Finlay look great and could probably put a 4 star match on with a broomstick if he had to.

There was nobody anywhere -- not even Cornette -- who HAAAAAATED the match with Ricochet more than me.

The transformation of me considering him a legitimate part of the "best wrestler in the world" conversation is one of the more shocking turn of events I can recall. And that's despite me not exactly having much other than oxygen consumption in common with the guy.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Still a couple nights behind on G1 -- trying to catch up is worse than trying to stay current if you ever get behind -- but one of the things I love about Kevin Kelly's work popped up just now.

As Chase Owens is heading to the ring, he conversationally mentions that the day before was the one year anniversary of Bobby Eaton's death and how important Eaton was to Owens career. When Chase rolls into the ring, he's got Bobby's name on his wrist tape & shows it to the camera.

Now obviously Kevin knew that was there, Owens surely told him he wanted to draw attention to it. But it was the way Kevin set that up for the fans ... conversationally. That just really made it work. It wasn't the over the top stuff that other announcers might have resorted it, it was just matter of fact.

Little shit, that just makes it feel different to me.

[RainMaker]

What happened to Fale? He looks incredibly bad in the tournament. When even Okada can't get a halfway decent match out of you, it's not good.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

What happened to Fale? He looks incredibly bad in the tournament. When even Okada can't get a halfway decent match out of you, it's not good.

He sucks, and has for a long time now?

I mean, there's really never been a point in my NJPW viewing where he wasn't in the bottom three on the roster in terms of ring work.

The only guy I could come up with that was definitely worse was Iizuka.

More generally they do have a bit of a problem with several guys kinda going over the hill at the same time. For example, it's increasingly thought that this could well be the last G1 for Ishii.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Still on the catch up (and will STILL be two shows behind even after yet another overnight grind to watch a show) ... but somehow Yoshi-Hashi has put together two perfectly fine to good matches in a row.

vs Juice and then vs ELP, and I made the same remark after both matches: the thing that made both matches was the proximity the wrestlers kept to each other throughout the match. It kept up the pace without necessarily being fast.

If you'd told me Yoshi f'n Hashi would have matches that might end up in the upper half of a G1, I'd have laughed in your face.

[JonInMiddleGA]

More thinking aloud, courtesy of Jay White vs Great O Khan.

There's a spot probably around midway where O'K has a one move mini-comeback, pops up to throw a shoulder block at Jay. As he comes forward (into a counter by Jay), White's eyes get big as saucers.

It was next next-level (with two nexts intended). That isn't a Japan thing, you don't get work for the camera that way from hardly anybody ever. They'll play to the back row of the house but not to ringside or the camera.

It's remarkable just how good we're watching Jay White get at this pro wrestling thing.

[RainMaker]

Well it seems they might be all in on Jonah. Pretty impressive performance and wins over Cobb and Okada is something I didn't expect. Think one of the announcers made a Vader-Inoki reference too.

Ospreay remains my favorite of the tournament. Just thoroughly enjoying his matches.

Can't figure out why Juice Robinson didn't work in WWE. I'm not a huge fan and find the comedy stuff to be too much at times. But that's also the type of humor and in-ring stuff Vince loved. Not a knock on the guy or anything, he just seems like the perfect mid-card comedy heel for WWE.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Well it seems they might be all in on Jonah.

That's one of my disappointments of the tournament.

Not his booking, just the fact they put this fatass slob in it at all.

I'd just as soon watch paint dry, he's a less diverse Cobb and I grew weary of that fatass slob after about the 3rd time I saw him

[RainMaker]

I had to look him up and apparently he was in NXT. I guess they want to replicate Vader but he just doesn't look intimidating at all.

[Toddzilla]

I once saw Jonah do a cartwheel in the ring - it was amazing.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

I once saw Jonah do a cartwheel in the ring - it was amazing.

Like quite a few of the superheavyweights in recent memory -- Cobb, Elgin to a lesser extent, War Machine in their prime -- he's capable of some freakish move(s) for his size.

But once the novelty of that wears off there just isn't much left to see afaic.

[RainMaker]

Does anyone else just not give a shit about CM Punk? I get he's their biggest draw and all, but I find this iteration of him kind of boring. Not to mention he is a shell of himself in the ring.

I know they'll put him over Moxley and maybe that makes the most business sense. But I just can't get into this smiling babyface persona.

Also, has anyone hear a peep about MJF? If this was all some big work, they sure are milking it. Feels like one of those things that if you don't capitalize on soon enough, he'll fade away.

[RainMaker]

I guess another wrinkle is that with HHH in charge, a guy like MJF now has way more leverage than previously. Vince would have never pushed the guy or given him any freedom to do his thing. But HHH seems like someone who would.

Not sure what the consensus is here on HHH, but I dug his booking in NXT. Might not translate to the main roster, but feels on its way to a much more watchable product for me at least. And if he brings in his production crew that he supposedly was grooming in NXT, that'll help a lot. Can't take those camera cuts.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

And if he brings in his production crew that he supposedly was grooming in NXT, that'll help a lot. Can't take those camera cuts.

Alas ...

It was reported earlier this week that WWE’s Executive Producer & Chief of Global Television Distribution Kevin Dunn is expected to stay with the company. Alvarez noted on Wrestling Observer Radio that even if Dunn were to leave the company, the camera work he’s known for is likely staying.

“I know everyone flat out says it’s Kevin Dunn and I’m sure that he’s part of this, but I was told there are other people there that like the shaking, and the zooming and the cuts, and that you shouldn’t expect that if Kevin Dunn left tomorrow, that we suddenly wouldn’t have that anymore. People there like it, I have no idea why,” Alvarez said.

[RainMaker]

Well that sucks. I know it's weird but I just can't watch it sometimes. It makes me fucking dizzy and I don't get it.

[PilotMan]

The camera cuts are awful. Feels cheap, like shakey cam on a cheap, poorly edited or choreographed movie.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Does anyone else just not give a shit about CM Punk? I get he's their biggest draw and all, but I find this iteration of him kind of boring. Not to mention he is a shell of himself in the ring.

I know they'll put him over Moxley and maybe that makes the most business sense. But I just can't get into this smiling babyface persona.

Also, has anyone hear a peep about MJF? If this was all some big work, they sure are milking it. Feels like one of those things that if you don't capitalize on soon enough, he'll fade away.

First of all, CM Punk was my favorite wrestler in the WWE before Daniel Bryan went on his big run.

I'm quite a bit behind on my AEW viewing right now, just starting in March now. I found that MJF brought out a bit more in CM Punk that he didn't show before that. MJF is freaking awesome. Leading up to that, Punk was feeling like the wrestling equivalent of the Def Leppard, Motley Crue and Poison tour that's going around right now. It's good to see them, but also apparent that their best days are far behind them.

He does seem like he is having fun, but at the same time the rest of the wrestling world has caught up to him a bit. But that's the great thing about wrestling, you can revisit the Summer of Punk in RoH and watch his classic trilogy with Samoa Joe anytime, it still holds up.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

The camera cuts are awful. Feels cheap, like shakey cam on a cheap, poorly edited or choreographed movie.

Feels like a film student would imagine something like this to convey excitement. Maybe it would be effective for one match a month or something, as it would stand out, but the entire visual product comes off as very childish to me, it's like watching a kids show that's made for 5 year olds. Too colorful and glossy, and like they thought the MTV Generation of cinematography was too slow or something.

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Like quite a few of the superheavyweights in recent memory -- Cobb, Elgin to a lesser extent, War Machine in their prime -- he's capable of some freakish move(s) for his size.

But once the novelty of that wears off there just isn't much left to see afaic.

I was being *very* facetious

I was referencing this one in particular (https://twitter.com/WWENXT/status/1380325214718984195) where Gargano misses a clothesline by 5 feet and Jonah breaks out the gymnastics. I think he's a worthess shitter

[sterlingice]

Not trying to threadcrap - I couldn't think of a better place to put this on my internet hangouts.

I haven't watched rasslin' in 20 years so maybe things have changed a lot. But someone on Reddit just described it as "redneck anime" and I can't get past how that description is brilliantly accurate if you just tilt your head a little and squint. I always thought "athletic soap opera", personally, but if I put those two together...

SI