The official 2008 MLB thread

[Mike1409]

Originally Posted by Logan

Out of the hundreds of millions that the YES network cost to start up, how much did the other teams chip in?

What does that have to do with anything? They may make a little more with their own network but before that they made more than everyone else with FSNY or the other cable company there.

[Logan]

Maybe it has something to do with how business works? Those who take risk get to enjoy the fruits of it. Those who share in the risk do the same. According to this article, Goldman Sachs and Providence Equity Partners financed the start-up of the network. They have earned over a 100% return on their investment through dividend payments. That's not to mention that their original $340 million share is worth upwards of $1.2 billion (as of almost two years ago).

If I'm a shareholder and you're coming for a slice of the revenues, I'll tell you to shut the f up and sit back down.

[MrBug708]

I dont think you can apply business theories to the argument...

[molson]

Originally Posted by JS19

I'll admit, I haven't read through this how small/big market debate, but who's really complaining here? I'm pretty sure baseball is more popular than ever and making the most money in its history. Why would anyone want to change anything? This is a business, and the point of a business is to make as much money as you possibly can, which they are. I'll admit, I'm a Mets fan (unfortunatley), so I'm part of this big market monster fan, but if the Marlins can win more WS than the Mets, and the same amount as the Red Sox, in the past 11 yrs, and the A's and Twins can be regular playoff teams, and the Rays can have the best record in baseball, than maybe these other teams need to hire people who actually know what they are doing to run their franchise.

It's easier just to whine about the "antichrist" big markets.

[Vince]

So I'm sure I've missed it somewhere in the thread, but who is the National League's Starter for the All-Star game? I figure you really have three choices.

1. Tim Lincecum - 10-1, 115.2 IP, 2.49 ERA, 122 Ks, 44 BB, 1.24 WHIP
2. Edinson Volquez - 10-3, 104.2 IP, 2.24 ERA, 113 Ks, 51 BB, 1.24 WHIP
3. Brandon Webb - 12-4, 118.0 IP, 3.43 ERA, 100 Ks, 31 BB, 1.16 WHIP

Even though I'm a homer and a half (I have a Lincecum jersey on as I type this), I have a hard time picking between these three guys based upon statistics alone. I think that Webb's record (even though I hate Wins) and peripherals (K:BB Ratio and WHIP) make up for his higher ERA to put him right on par with Lincecum and Volquez. Lincecum has pitched better recently, but all three have had warts in their last 10 starts.

Personally, I give the nod to Lincecum - he's easily the MVP of the Giants this season, and has pitched better than the other two recently. Who do you guys choose?

[Mike1409]

Originally Posted by Logan

Maybe it has something to do with how business works? Those who take risk get to enjoy the fruits of it. Those who share in the risk do the same. According to this article, Goldman Sachs and Providence Equity Partners financed the start-up of the network. They have earned over a 100% return on their investment through dividend payments. That's not to mention that their original $340 million share is worth upwards of $1.2 billion (as of almost two years ago).

If I'm a shareholder and you're coming for a slice of the revenues, I'll tell you to shut the f up and sit back down.

Again it doesn't work that way in sports. We are partners in this event.

The fact that you were awarded a franchise in a larger populated market shouldn't mean you get a larger cut of OUR profits.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by Logan

Allow me to talk about actual baseball games for a minute...

That was another great one between the Mets and Phils (at least until the Mets really got to the Phils' pen late). The first eight innings were a joy to watch...just great baseball, some clutch hitting, a lot of strategic moves between the Manuels, etc. It amazes me how Jamie Moyer continues to be a productive pitcher.

Yep. Great game.

Gillick has done a masterful job with his pickups. Sure, the core of the team (Rollins, Utley, Howard, Hamels) came from Ed Wade, but the majority of Wade's pickups have been low-risk great reward. The Moyer deal is a great example of Gillick's adds.

His greatest move though just got re-signed this morning. Closer Brad Lidge got a 3 year, 37 million extension; fixing the mistake of letting Billy Wagner go.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Mike1409

Again it doesn't work that way in sports. We are partners in this event.

The fact that you were awarded a franchise in a larger populated market shouldn't mean you get a larger cut of OUR profits.

Thankfully it does, and that's never going to change.

[MrBug708]

Popularity lineups..err..All Star lineups are out

[Mike1409]

Originally Posted by Logan

Thankfully it does, and that's never going to change.

While that is correct that it is the way it works today to say your thankful for it and that it will never change is classic big market arrogance.

[Shkspr]

Originally Posted by Vince

Personally, I give the nod to Lincecum - he's easily the MVP of the Giants this season, and has pitched better than the other two recently. Who do you guys choose?

I think you have to vote Lincecum because the moment his oblique goes, his career is over. he ought to have one moment in the sun.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by Mike1409

While that is correct that it is the way it works today to say your thankful for it and that it will never change is classic big market arrogance.

You can bet your ass that McCourt wants a salary cap

[ISiddiqui]

If the Royals ever have another winning season, it will have been heavily subsidized by the Yankees and their fans, and it would be tainted in that way. Is that really what you want?

What a ridiculous argument. When the Packers won the SuperBowl did you consider it tainted because it was heavily subsidized by the Giants and 49ers?

Obviously, the NFL seems to care more for the small markets than MLB does and it has paid off more than they imagined. If you want MLB to be a league that only those on the coasts follow, then fine. But if you want try to grab the top spot from the NFL again, you need to go after the Midwest areas that may not have all the big cities that the coasts do. After all, the KC Chiefs do a pretty decent business and no one blames them for taking the money of the coasts to be successful.

[molson]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

What a ridiculous argument. When the Packers won the SuperBowl did you consider it tainted because it was heavily subsidized by the Giants and 49ers?

Obviously, the NFL seems to care more for the small markets than MLB does and it has paid off more than they imagined. If you want MLB to be a league that only those on the coasts follow, then fine. But if you want try to grab the top spot from the NFL again, you need to go after the Midwest areas that may not have all the big cities that the coasts do. After all, the KC Chiefs do a pretty decent business and no one blames them for taking the money of the coasts to be successful.

Apples and Oranges. NFL teams don't have local TV contracts, there's national deals, and that's split amongst the teams equally. That national tv is about 2/3 of all revenue generated by the NFL, and it's plenty to keep all teams competitive. As a result, there really isn't the huge difference in revenues between NFL teams that you see in the MLB.

Splitting a national TV deal 32 ways is way different than taking Yankees money from their YES network and ticket sales and handing it to small markets teams (And I'm not against MLB revenue sharing in general, I just think people are asking for the impossible and then they get all pissy when I point out the actual economics). For true equality in MLB, you'd have to really gut the big market teams in a big way, I'm talking hundreds of millions of dollars. MLB would be insane to put those kind of handcuffs on their big money-makers.

I know some people would love to see all MLB team's TV deals pooled and split equally but again, that's just insanity and its never going to happen. Because you play 162 games, baseball is a regional, not a national sport, and it lends itself to regional, not national TV deals.

People talk about arrogance of the big markets but the arrogance of the small market team fans continue to astound me - first we hear that MLB will be as popular as Lacrosse without the Royals and other small market teams, and now all MLB has to do to pass the NFL is build up the Royals to a contender. That's arrogance.

[MrBug708]

Wow...

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by molson

People talk about arrogance of the big markets but the arrogance of the small market team fans continue to astound me - first we hear that MLB will be as popular as Lacrosse without the Royals and other small market teams, and now all MLB has to do to pass the NFL is build up the Royals to a contender. That's arrogance.

No, that sounds more like you reaching to make yourself feel better about being a big market fan who doesn't mind reaping the benefits of being such, or throwing it in the faces of those less fortunate.

Not that the passing the NFL thing is isn't a reach itself, but seriously, molson. There have been some amazingly arrogant things said by some big market fans in this thread, yourself included. And keep in mind, I am a big market fan myself.

[Jas_lov]

Francona is a joke. Jason Varitek is not an all-star.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Jas_lov

Francona is a joke. Jason Varitek is not an all-star.

As a Red Sox lifer, I must agree. As much as I respect 'Tek, and especially his game-management, his time as an all-star has passed, and frankly, I think to a large extent his value as an everyday player is quickly diminishing.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Jas_lov

Francona is a joke. Jason Varitek is not an all-star.

Wow. I can't believe that one. This isn't a borderline guy getting the call over a 20% statistically better deserving one. This is nuts. I think Keith Law's heading about this missed pick says it all: "Jason Varitek over various multicellular organisms capable of wearing a catcher's mitt".

SI

[Big Fo]

I hate fan voting. Why can't they just let the fans vote then let managers choose the team and say that's who was voted in?

[Logan]

C.C. to the Brewers?

[sterlingice]

Am I wrong or does this rumored deal for Sabathia look pretty good for the Brewers with only one high level prospect changing hands and a couple of ok guys?

SI

[Logan]

You know what doesn't look good? Billy Wagner giving up a game-tying 2-run bomb to Werth with 2 strikes and 2 outs.

Good job all star. Prick.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Am I wrong or does this rumored deal for Sabathia look pretty good for the Brewers with only one high level prospect changing hands and a couple of ok guys?

SI

Isn't it for basically a rental year?

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Big Fo

I hate fan voting. Why can't they just let the fans vote then let managers choose the team and say that's who was voted in?

I know that's (mostly) facetious, right? You want to see another stupid scandal for baseball that they cannot weasel their way out of?

I would like to see a couple of changes, tho. The half inning or inning when ballots are handed out, I'd love to see stats put up on the scoreboard instead of out of town scores. I know this isn't possible everywhere but most stadiums have large video boards where you could "educate" all MLB fans as to who is more deserving.

For instance, only the pure Royals ballots would be voting for Tony Pena Jr for SS this year. But the AL SS race this year is pretty bad so they don't know who else is most deserving, say, Michael Young, this year. I could see a lot of them voting for Jeter solely on name recognition. But if you flash the stats on the screen, I think it would help some of these races where there's the name recognition vs the more deserving.

Similarly, MLB.com doesn't have the stats on their site when you fill out a ballot, the last time I checked. Yes, MLB.com has the stats on the statistics part of the site, but just place them side by side on the ballot so you can see every player. Maybe that's changed in the last couple of years, tho- it's been a while since I've done an online ballot.

It's a modest suggestion but I think a good one.

SI

[DaddyTorgo]

note that according to Keith Law's article, the players picked Varitek, not Francona. So you can't blame Francona for being a homer or anything.

[DaddyTorgo]

grrrrr - good point here in that article too

Putting six relievers on the roster is bad enough, but the players and AL manager Francona snubbed one of the majors' best pitchers this year and a member of his own staff in the process: Jon Lester. I'm not sure what more Lester would have to do to get everyone's attention. Throw a no-hitter? Oh, he did that. How about shutting out the Yankees in the Bronx? Um, he did that too. And his backstory is pretty good, too. He's an emerging star, the type of player MLB should want in the All-Star Game as they showcase the next generation of centerpiece players.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Isn't it for basically a rental year?

Of course it is. But almost all deadline deals are for rental years.

When I was in an old BBPro league, I would almost never make deadline deals because I'd rather have a prospect for 6 years than a good pitcher/prospect for a half season. But I was also one of the most conservative owners in the league- I'd rather build my franchise like the Braves with lots of division titles but maybe not the postseason success rather than risk it all and go for a title. Other owners were different, of course.

SI

[Logan]

Good move for the Brewers. Worst case scenario, you take your two comp picks and try to find a guy to replace who you just dealt. You have to take your shot when the opportunity presents itself.

[DeToxRox]

Two games going 15 innings on the same day.. I wonder how often this has happened.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

grrrrr - good point here in that article too

Putting six relievers on the roster is bad enough, but the players and AL manager Francona snubbed one of the majors' best pitchers this year and a member of his own staff in the process: Jon Lester. I'm not sure what more Lester would have to do to get everyone's attention. Throw a no-hitter? Oh, he did that. How about shutting out the Yankees in the Bronx? Um, he did that too. And his backstory is pretty good, too. He's an emerging star, the type of player MLB should want in the All-Star Game as they showcase the next generation of centerpiece players.

To be fair, he was using anecdotal evidence in that entire section to justify certain players. He also suggested Greinke instead of Soria. Greinke has been pretty good but not great while Soria didn't give up a run until the middle of May and has saved nearly 60% of the Royals wins.

Edwin Jackson shut out the Yanks for 7 innings earlier this season and so did Garrett Olson. I don't think they're being championed for an All Star spot. Hell, Kyle Davies pitched a nice game there. I don't think he's getting a spot in New York, either. Lester is 6th in the AL in pitcher VORP but 7 more guys are within a couple as the season hasn't had a chance to sort itself out yet. And that makes you borderline when you do have to fill a spot for every team.

One could easily make an argument that James Shields belongs on the team more than Lester as he has a higher ERA but less walks, more K's, less hits, and a lower WHIP in a comparable number of innings. Or, hell, the aforementioned Greinke is quite comparable as well.

I don't know if we have enough Red Sox in the game, yet, tho. Could we add a couple of more Cubs, too

SI

[DeToxRox]

Jeremy Burke, the backup catcher for the Mariners, is pitching the 15th for Seattle.

[DeToxRox]

Miguel Cabrera doubles off of Burke to open up the 15th. Burke is featuring a vast array of 79-82 mph FBs.

[DeToxRox]

Burke just tried to use a curve ball, whch one hopped the back stop.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

Jeremy Burke, the backup catcher for the Mariners, is pitching the 15th for Seattle.

hahah...i wanna see this on sportscenter!

[DeToxRox]

2 outs. Thames sac fly to make it 2-1, and a Pudge ground out. Pudge, of course, tried going yard every pitch.

[DeToxRox]

And Ichiro makes a shoe string catch to get Burke out of the 15th. Honestly, if Seattle scores, I have no idea what they do in the 16th. I assume RA Dickey, who pitched last night, comes in because he is a knuckleballer.

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Could we add a couple of more Cubs, too

Sure thing!

[sterlingice]

Is there some reason the Mets/Phils game is still going? Wouldn't that game have started about 5 hours ago?

This is the type of day I wish I had MLB.tv

SI

[DeToxRox]

Tigs pull it out in 15, giving Jeremy Burke his first career loss.

[Coffee Warlord]

Burke is no Doug Dascenzo, that's for sure.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Is there some reason the Mets/Phils game is still going? Wouldn't that game have started about 5 hours ago?

This is the type of day I wish I had MLB.tv

SI

That game started 7 hours ago. 2.5 hour rain delay from 4:30 until 7.

Huge win though. Fernando Tatis strikes again.

[miami_fan]

Why don't the powers that be(including the fans) come to a consensus as to what they want the All Star team to be about. Is it about who is having the best first half of the season? Who is the "best" player at each position since the last All Star game? How about a roster of who the fans want to see in the game? What exactly should the criteria be?

[Logan]

It should be about what collection of players have the best chance of winning home field in the WS for their league. The fans, at the very least with the ballot stuffing of guys from their own team, don't get that.

[molson]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Why don't the powers that be(including the fans) come to a consensus as to what they want the All Star team to be about. Is it about who is having the best first half of the season? Who is the "best" player at each position since the last All Star game? How about a roster of who the fans want to see in the game? What exactly should the criteria be?

That's a good question. There's no answer. People always seem to assume that the All-Star Game is supposed to be the players that had the best 1/2 season, but I don't think that's necessarily true. Why shouldn't it just be the biggest stars in the game? The fans seem to vote for a combination of both, and while the managers tend to lean towards guys who had a good few months, they also usually show a little bias for stardom.

As for the Home Field advantage thing, it's just a fun gimmick, I don't think the players you have on your team really impact who wins a single baseball game like this. A single baseball game is a toss-up anyway, it becomes even more so when you throw out a bunch of players who are putting forth various efforts and there's no real unifying strategy or gameplan. The AL's chances of winning don't really decrease just because you have Ichiro playing the first 3 innings instead of Carlos Quentin.

[Logan]

Yeah I should add that I don't believe any of the crap I wrote above.

[samifan24]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Am I wrong or does this rumored deal for Sabathia look pretty good for the Brewers with only one high level prospect changing hands and a couple of ok guys?

SI

Yes, the CC deal is good for the Brewers but, as an Indians fan, I also think it's a good deal for the Tribe. The Indians knew Sabathia was going to walk at the end of the year. With the way the team has underperformed its way out of playoff contention this year, I think the decision to move Sabathia "for something" now was pretty easy for Mark Shapiro.

As I stated earlier in this thread, the Brewers get a half year "rental" from Sabathia and will also receive two first round draft picks when he signs elsewhere in the off-season so the trade is more valuable to Milwaukee than a typical rental deal.

I'm happy with the Indians' haul, too. Matt LaPorta is a legit power prospect and the Indians badly need power, especially at the corner outfield positions and especially in a lineup which includes the suddenly powerless Travis Hafner.

In the end, the Indians dealt Sabathia out of necessity but received honest value given the nature of the deal. The Brewers now have a half year of one of the best pitchers in baseball and a legitimate chance to win the NL Central.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

No, that sounds more like you reaching to make yourself feel better about being a big market fan who doesn't mind reaping the benefits of being such, or throwing it in the faces of those less fortunate.

Not that the passing the NFL thing is isn't a reach itself, but seriously, molson. There have been some amazingly arrogant things said by some big market fans in this thread, yourself included. And keep in mind, I am a big market fan myself.

Also don't forget that I'm a Mets fan and I am under no illusions that the Mets are anything but a massive market team. As for national vs. regional revenue, I know the difference. I also don't think it's such a big deal to have that revenue shared. Not the entire thing, but I put forward the Costas idea that half of the local revenue is put into a pot which is evenly distributed. It'd be a nice start (along with an "everywhere draft").

[DaddyTorgo]

bawhahaha

the indians are from ohio.

ohio can go fuck itself

[DeToxRox]

Varitek is 15 for his last 133. Amazing.