Official 2010-11 College Basketball Thread

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

I know that his success has spoiled some fans who now expect to see this program getting to the Final Four, and while of course I'd love to see that as well, as long as he's getting to the Tournament nearly every year and competing for the conference title, I'm good with him.

I don't expect a final four. What I do expect is to beat teams we should beat and at least win some of the games we play against equal competition. Especially with the athletes we have. Our best wins shouldn't be against UCLA and Arizona at home.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

Don't understand why Kansas is above Texas. Based on the quality of teams lost to though, I would still put Ohio State at #1. Their 2 losses have come to the other 2 Big Ten teams to not lose at home all season, and both were top 20 teams when they lost. Texas has the Nebraska loss now, and Kansas got creamed by K-State.

Not only that, but it took Herculean single-game performances by players on each of the teams that beat OSU to win the games. E'Twaun Moore with 38 points, and Jordan Taylor with his unconscious 2nd half. Even so, the Wisconsin game could've been had, but no one was beating Purdue yesterday.

Agree with both points. Texas deserves to be above KU and OSU should be the #1 team.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

Don't understand why Kansas is above Texas. Based on the quality of teams lost to though, I would still put Ohio State at #1. Their 2 losses have come to the other 2 Big Ten teams to not lose at home all season, and both were top 20 teams when they lost. Texas has the Nebraska loss now, and Kansas got creamed by K-State.

Not only that, but it took Herculean single-game performances by players on each of the teams that beat OSU to win the games. E'Twaun Moore with 38 points, and Jordan Taylor with his unconscious 2nd half. Even so, the Wisconsin game could've been had, but no one was beating Purdue yesterday.

You nailed it!

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Agree with both points. Texas deserves to be above KU and OSU should be the #1 team.

I agree three. See we can agree on things

SI

[Marmel]

I'll give Pitt the #1 ranking. When you have a few teams (and this week I would say there are 5) worthy of the #1 ranking, I look at who they beat on the road. Pitt has the best 2 wins that I can see (at Nove, at G'town).

Everybody is going to lose games, so comparing who you lost too doesn't tell me much. But who you beat, and specifically, who you beat on the road, tells me a lot.

[yacovfb]

So for everyone who thinks that Texas should be above Kansas (I don't necessarily disagree) do you also think that Pitt should be above Texas? Pitt beat Texas at a neutral site and beat UConn (who Texas lost to by 1 in OT) by 15. They've got the same number of Big East losses If you're going by more recent history, losing by 1 to St. Johns isn't as bad a loss as losing to Nebraska.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Coaches poll has Duke #1, Kansas #2, Ohio State #3, SDSU #4, Texas #5.
Looks about right to me.
NCAA College Basketball Polls, College Basketball Rankings, NCAA Basketball Polls - ESPN

[Butter]

Originally Posted by Marmel

Everybody is going to lose games, so comparing who you lost too doesn't tell me much. But who you beat, and specifically, who you beat on the road, tells me a lot.

I would agree with the last statement. But comparing the losses and who they are to speaks to a consistency of play that should be present in the top teams. You could have 2 teams, both with 10 top-100 RPI wins, but if one loses to 3 teams with a sub-200 RPI and the other doesn't, I think that can tell you a lot.

[Butter]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Coaches poll has Duke #1, Kansas #2, Ohio State #3, SDSU #4, Texas #5.
Looks about right to me.

Figured that Duke would end up with the #1. Really, basketball rankings are so much less meaningful than football ones, that it's not worth getting worked up about. I wonder if Duke would net a #1 seed in the tournament though? I would almost have to think not, if we were comparing current resumes.

Lot of basketball left to be played.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

I wonder if Duke would net a #1 seed in the tournament though? I would almost have to think not, if we were comparing current resumes.

I would think the four #1's (today) are Duke, KU, tOSU, and either Texas or Pitt.

Worth noting that Duke got a little over half the #1 votes from the coaches, Texas got zero #1 votes while Pitt got four #1 votes, that's the bit that has meaning thinking Pitt is probably the fourth #1 seed ... IF we were picking them today, which isn't happening. But pondering it did kill a good 90 seconds of my day, so it's all good

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Marmel

I'll give Pitt the #1 ranking. When you have a few teams (and this week I would say there are 5) worthy of the #1 ranking, I look at who they beat on the road. Pitt has the best 2 wins that I can see (at Nove, at G'town).

I'll take Texas' wins over Kansas and Texas A&M on the road if that's the qualification.

[Marmel]

Originally Posted by Radii

I'll take Texas' wins over Kansas and Texas A&M on the road if that's the qualification.

I can't argue with that, but it is close either way. I think you would agree it certainly should not have been Duke.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I don't expect a final four. What I do expect is to beat teams we should beat and at least win some of the games we play against equal competition. Especially with the athletes we have. Our best wins shouldn't be against UCLA and Arizona at home.

Well, as someone that lived through the Russo, Nance and Bender years, I'll take Romar's superior athletes and at times frustrating coaching over the probable alternative.

And on the subject, I wouldn't put Saturday's loss on Romar's coaching...

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Fun night of basketball thus far tonight. Hogs upset UK. Providence nearly pulls the upset.

Continue to be totally baffled by how bad Baylor is. How a coach can so poorly lead a team with Dunn and Jones on his squad is beyond me. I don't think anyone thought they'd win at Mizzou Arena as it's one of the toughest places in college basketball to get a win, but they just got thumped and didn't even look like they were interested in the game.

KSU/Nebraska game is going down to the wire on ESPNU.

[jbergey22]

Maybe Dunn isnt the player/leader he is made out to be. Baylor has obviously thrown in the towel for this year, the loss at home to Texas Tech is pretty good evidence on that.

Still with the 68 team tourny they have a decent shot of getting in if they can turn it around.

[Swaggs]

Providence's Marshon Brooks scored 52 in the loss against Notre Dame, which is apparently the Big East single game record.

Also, Cincy knocked off Georgetown. They are probably close to locking up a spot.

It looks like the Big East is going to get 10 bids this season (unless Cincy and West Virginia totally flop in these last few games and in the BE tourney) and Marquette is really the only BE team that is in play (barring a miracle run in the tourney).

[MizzouRah]

Nice win for K-ST especially how good Nebraska has played at home this year.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Fun night of basketball thus far tonight. Hogs upset UK. Providence nearly pulls the upset.

Continue to be totally baffled by how bad Baylor is. How a coach can so poorly lead a team with Dunn and Jones on his squad is beyond me. I don't think anyone thought they'd win at Mizzou Arena as it's one of the toughest places in college basketball to get a win, but they just got thumped and didn't even look like they were interested in the game.

KSU/Nebraska game is going down to the wire on ESPNU.

Drew reminds me of vintage Quin Snyder basketball. Big time recruits, no coaching, no discipline, no heart, but they pull one out of their ass every once in a while and everyone thinks they are good.

[MizzouRah]

Wisconsin beats Michigan on the last shot of the game... I really love how competitive college basketball is.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Maybe Dunn isnt the player/leader he is made out to be. Baylor has obviously thrown in the towel for this year, the loss at home to Texas Tech is pretty good evidence on that.

Still with the 68 team tourny they have a decent shot of getting in if they can turn it around.

Dunn is an amazing player. You don't get to the point of being the Big 12's all-time leading scorer by having average skills. He often has to make plays for himself due to lack of any real motion in the Baylor offensive scheme.

[bjack83]

i kno im off topic but i was trying to get some one's help with FOF im new here and i had some questions about the game sorry in advance

[Logan]

bjack might not be game for you.

There's a separate FOF forum.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Dunn is an amazing player. You don't get to the point of being the Big 12's all-time leading scorer by having average skills. He often has to make plays for himself due to lack of any real motion in the Baylor offensive scheme.

Well he is 497th in college hoops in offensive rating while taking percentage wise the 26th largest shot ratio in college hoops and by your account his team is underachieving. You need to look at the veteran players along with the coach when a team starts playing below expectations. Its always easy to blame the coach but if you have poor leadership within the team the results are basically the same.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Well he is 497th in college hoops in offensive rating while taking percentage wise the 26th largest shot ratio in college hoops and by your account his team is underachieving. You need to look at the veteran players along with the coach when a team starts playing below expectations. Its always easy to blame the coach but if you have poor leadership within the team the results are basically the same.

Dunn is just doing what the coach tells him to do, which isn't much. I'm guessing you haven't watched many Baylor games. A coach usually chews a player if he's not doing what he wants. That doesn't happen. Even if Dunn is providing poor leadership as you imply, he's got a coach who has no idea how to rectify that situation.

This isn't exactly new information here. Drew has a reputation in the B12 for a total lack of coaching ability. The only thing that allows him to cover that up is that he can recruit with anyone.

[jbergey22]

He must be doing something right as the Baylor hoops program is in the best situation it has been in since 1950. If you wanted to call him a cheater or something like that Id have an easier time believing that over saying he cant coach when he has taken a program that was almost dead 8 years ago and turned it into what it is now.

Sounds more like has he crossed some bridges in the Big 12 that he shouldnt have been crossing.

Didnt Baylor just make the Elite 8 last season?

And I dont agree that coaches "usually" chew their players when they arent doing what you want. Part of coaching is knowing how to handle your players and some players are not responsive to being "chewed" out. That is old school Bobby Knight theory of coaching which can hurt a situation as much as it can help a situation.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

He must be doing something right as the Baylor hoops program is in the best situation it has been in since 1950. If you wanted to call him a cheater or something like that Id have an easier time believing that over saying he cant coach when he has taken a program that was almost dead 8 years ago and turned it into what it is now.

Sounds more like has he crossed some bridges in the Big 12 that he shouldnt have been crossing.

Didnt Baylor just make the Elite 8 last season?

Well, he is know for some pretty dirty recruiting (somewhat surprising given his college roots with his dad), but that's another story.

He's resurrected the program solely due to his recruiting ability. As I mentioned previously this year, the talent he brings in makes up for his horrid coaching. I can't even imagine how good that team could be with a good X's and O's coach.

They did make the Elite 8. That's the one year that they've performed anywhere near their talent level.

[jbergey22]

Yes so much talent Baylor has had that they have had 1 NBA draft pick in Drews entire term.

If I didnt know any better I might think you had it out for the Baylor program

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Yes so much talent Baylor has had that they have had 1 NBA draft pick in Drews entire term.

Some would argue that Drew has cost players a shot at the NBA because they weren't developed properly. A good coach helps a player to realize his potential.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Some would argue that Drew has cost players a shot at the NBA because they weren't developed properly. A good coach helps a player to realize his potential.

Hard to believe he has had any success with how crappy he must be as a coach. Even the Gophers were getting players drafted when they were winning 4-5 big ten games.

It the time frame Drew has been coaching Baylor, Texas has had 10 players drafted.

[muns]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

As I mentioned previously this year, the talent he brings in makes up for his horrid coaching. I can't even imagine how good that team could be with a good X's and O's coach.

This makes no sense at all. Clearly there are always going to be guys that know more about X's and O's but at that level its not some crazy amount that makes him unqualified for the spot.

Besides there are 4-6 other coaches on that staff, and if he doesnt know X's and O's the way people want him to, then he is going to surround himself with someone or some people he trusts that will sit next to him on the bench that will get in his ear about stuff.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by muns

This makes no sense at all. Clearly there are always going to be guys that know more about X's and O's but at that level its not some crazy amount that makes him unqualified for the spot.

Besides there are 4-6 other coaches on that staff, and if he doesnt know X's and O's the way people want him to, then he is going to surround himself with someone or some people he trusts that will sit next to him on the bench that will get in his ear about stuff.

Just can't disagree more. It's borderline incompetence. Watch a Baylor game. There's no real offense. On defense, it's a straight 2-3 zone on every possession. It's very passive and not remotely effective when compared to other teams that run a similar offense.

As for the other staff, you also could not be more incorrect. He surrounds himself with recruiters. It's great for the recruiting trail, but doesn't help him a lick on the court. As mentioned before, this isn't a big secret in B12 country. Baylor figures they at least have a good recruiter which acquires the talent to surprise on occasion. But there won't be any consistency in results as long as he's the coach.

[jbergey22]

B12 country=Mizzou B ball fan and his friends sitting around the NCAA tourny last year having a few cocktails and trying to figure out why Baylor is still playing while the Tigers are enjoying the show?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

B12 country=Mizzou B ball fan and his friends sitting around the NCAA tourny last year having a few cocktails and trying to figure out why Baylor is still playing while the Tigers are enjoying the show?

Not sure why that would be the case. Anyone who judges the talent level of a team based on how far they advance in the NCAA tournament obviously doesn't understand the volatility of a single-elimination tournament.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Looking forward to the Mizzou-KSU game this morning. It's a pretty intense divisional matchup as-is, but Jacob Pullen and Jamar Samuels decided to ratchet it up a bit last night. They were on the local sports segment last night and said that Mizzou "plays like an elementary school team" and are "dirty players".

Ah, conference rivalries.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Not sure why that would be the case. Anyone who judges the talent level of a team based on how far they advance in the NCAA tournament obviously doesn't understand the volatility of a single-elimination tournament.

And I will choose "One thing having nothing to do with the other" for 500 Alex.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

And I will choose "One thing having nothing to do with the other" for 500 Alex.

I know you have hard on for trying to discredit MBBF all the time but you really show little knowledge of the big 12. Ask Cartman or Sterlingice or Cuckoo if you don't want to hear it from the Mizzou fans, Drew is not a good game coach. We love it because their talent is scary and they don't perform but it is pretty much a fact among those who follow the big 12 that he is not a good game coach and his players are very undisciplined.

Mizzou had a coach just like him named Quin Snyder who always had monster talent but could rarely put anything resembling an organized team together on the floor. And before you quote last season's elite eight run by Baylor perhaps you should look at Mizzou's elite eight run back in 2002 where they had #1 quality talent never played well but put together a string a great games in the NCAA tournament.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by panerd

I know you have hard on for trying to discredit MBBF all the time but you really show little knowledge of the big 12. Ask Cartman or Sterlingice or Cuckoo if you don't want to hear it from the Mizzou fans, Drew is not a good game coach. We love it because their talent is scary and they don't perform but it is pretty much a fact among those who follow the big 12 that he is not a good game coach and his players are very undisciplined.

Mizzou had a coach just like him named Quin Snyder who always had monster talent but could rarely put anything resembling an organized team together on the floor. And before you quote last season's elite eight run by Baylor perhaps you should look at Mizzou's elite eight run back in 2002 where they had #1 quality talent never played well but put together a string a great games in the NCAA tournament.

You would be correct in that I dont watch Baylor unless they are on ESPN Monday nights or something like that but I have a hard time believing he is as crappy as MBBF makes him out to be. He took them from nothing to the elite 8. They are so talented they have had 1 NBA draft choice in his entire term. Baylor is in the best situation they have been in for 60 years. Its easy to say he sucks as a coach but the results certainly arent showing it.

And why I get a kick out of MBBF is when he says things like "As mentioned before, this isn't a big secret in B12 country." As if the members of Big 12 nation are privy to some top secret information that us normal folks arent.

It would be like you telling me something about Bo Ryan and me totally discrediting it because it is information only us in the Big 10 country know about.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by panerd

I know you have hard on for trying to discredit MBBF all the time but you really show little knowledge of the big 12. Ask Cartman or Sterlingice or Cuckoo if you don't want to hear it from the Mizzou fans, Drew is not a good game coach. We love it because their talent is scary and they don't perform but it is pretty much a fact among those who follow the big 12 that he is not a good game coach and his players are very undisciplined.

Mizzou had a coach just like him named Quin Snyder who always had monster talent but could rarely put anything resembling an organized team together on the floor. And before you quote last season's elite eight run by Baylor perhaps you should look at Mizzou's elite eight run back in 2002 where they had #1 quality talent never played well but put together a string a great games in the NCAA tournament.

What monster talent did he have? I can only remember Kareem Rush

[panerd]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

You would be correct in that I dont watch Baylor unless they are on ESPN Monday nights or something like that but I have a hard time believing he is as crappy as MBBF makes him out to be. He took them from nothing to the elite 8. They are so talented they have had 1 NBA draft choice in his entire term. Baylor is in the best situation they have been in for 60 years. Its easy to say he sucks as a coach but the results certainly arent showing it.

And why I get a kick out of MBBF is when he says things like "As mentioned before, this isn't a big secret in B12 country." As if the members of Big 12 nation are privy to some top secret information that us normal folks arent.

See but I disagree with you on your last paragraph. I know a shitload about Nebraska and Colorado and Texas Tech that I would expect nobody to give two shits about that follows Duke or UCLA or Florida. Just like they would know about NC State or Arizona or Vandy where I might know the coach or the team's record. I think you are a big ten fan right? So you could talk about Indiana overperforming or Tubby Smith up in Minnesota and I would assume you would have a lot more knowledge. Like I said maybe Cartman or Sterlingice will chime in but it really isn't a newsflash that Drew isn't good on the coaching side.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

What monster talent did he have? I can only remember Kareem Rush

Sure. Not even biting here and it could be argued that Kareem Rush was actually Norm's recruit. Again I will defer to SI and Cartman to take a side on Mizzou's talent under Quin but thought that a guy who had Lavin as a coach for so long would appreciate the parallels between Mizzou, UCLA (the last decade or so), and the current Baylor situation.

[MrBug708]

I understand the parallel very well, UCLA underachieved with a lot of NBA talent on the squad

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by panerd

See but I disagree with you on your last paragraph. I know a shitload about Nebraska and Colorado and Texas Tech that I would expect nobody to give two shits about that follows Duke or UCLA or Florida. Just like they would know about NC State or Arizona or Vandy where I might know the coach or the team's record. I think you are a big ten fan right? So you could talk about Indiana overperforming or Tubby Smith up in Minnesota and I would assume you would have a lot more knowledge. Like I said maybe Cartman or Sterlingice will chime in but it really isn't a newsflash that Drew isn't good on the coaching side.

I usually take it with a grain of salt. Its hard for me to watch the team Im cheering for and be completely unbias in how I see that game unfolding. You are going to be a harsh critic on a team you dont like. It would be easy for me to say Bo Ryan underachieves come NCAA tourny time therefore he is an overrated coach when in reality he gets the most out of his talent every single year.

Ive seen the talent you guys talk about in Baylor for the past 3-4 years but you must realize that this is a program not used to winning and they are playing in a conference that is loaded with talent. Its not as if he is taking a talented team and going 9-7 in the WAC. Its still the Big 12 where most of the programs have a ton of talent.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

I understand the parallel very well, UCLA underachieved with a lot of NBA talent on the squad

See I don't measure talent by NBA because I think Quin may have actually destroyed a lot of their NBA chances. I look at Norm's recruits who were considering Mizzou and maybe Iowa State or SLU and then Quin's like Linus Klieza who were considering North Carolina or Thomas Gardner who was offered at Kansas or Jimmy McKinney who was considering Kentucky and Oklahoma. Seemed to be a huge jump in talent.

Looking back at Mizzou's '04 recruits on rivals apperently UCLA offered to Marshall Brown, Kansas offered to Kalen Grimes, Texas offered to Glen Dandridge, and Michigan and Arkansas offered to Jason Horton.

Mizzou's game just started with KState so I will check back later but I would call that talent.

[MJ4H]

The top secret information that the big 12 has is watching baylor's games.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by panerd

Sure. Not even biting here and it could be argued that Kareem Rush was actually Norm's recruit. Again I will defer to SI and Cartman to take a side on Mizzou's talent under Quin but thought that a guy who had Lavin as a coach for so long would appreciate the parallels between Mizzou, UCLA (the last decade or so), and the current Baylor situation.

Now maybe my memory is a little fuzzy, but Quin always seemed to have really highly regarded recruiting classes and then did very little with it. He badly underachieved and the meme was that he was like a mini-crapper version of Coach K. Basically, he could recruit and just expected to have the best 5 guys out on the court so he could tell them to just go play basketball and they would beat the other team. Only he didn't have that elite level of talent and it turns out Coach K actually can coach- he doesn't just expect the team to roll the ball out on the court and his better players will always win the game.

I think Drew is a bit like that. However, I think it's a little too early to write that on his Big XII gravestone. He did a phenomenal job recruiting and taking the team back from the murder and coverup under Dave Bliss. And it turns out that if you can out-recruit teams, that talent will definitely help you beat the lesser teams in the country if you have that kind of talent. He's brought in quite a few 4-star guys and even some 5-stars (Dunn, Jones, and has another one next year in Quincy Miller)

Scout.com: Football Recruiting

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baylor_...etball_seasons

That's the kind of talent Baylor hasn't seen in years, if ever. I mean, I looked on their wikipedia page and the last time they had 3 tourney appearances in a few year stretch (and if they close the season strong this year, they will have 3 in 4 years) was the 1940s.

So, I guess there are a couple of questions this encompasses:

1) Has is been mostly by recruiting and do his recruits underperform?
Well, despite having quite a few good players, I went back through the scout lists and didn't see Baylor on any top 25s except in 2005. That said, I bet they had a lot of 25-50 teams which should be good for consistently getting into the tournament. Now, I suppose they're getting to that point but when you have some of your best recruits as upperclassmen (Dunn), you shouldn't be fighting a spot, you should be fighting for a pretty high seed (see: Iowa State's couple of really good years with Pfizer, Tinsley). So I think that's where the criticism is coming from. And it's warranted- there's no way they should be fighting for a seed this year- they were expected to challenge for the top of the conference. Now is that because expectations were too high- I don't think so. They went NCAA-NIT-NCAA the last 3 years so I think you could expect this senior class, led by Dunn, to do well and go far in the NCAA tournament.

2) How good can Baylor be?
This is the ultimate question when talking about a college coach, where the field is not level like in the pros. Of course, in college, half of the job is recruiting. So if you can recruit but not "coach", that still has a lot of value. The Mark Mangino years for Kansas- that's probably their ceiling as a football program for a very long time. They don't have top notch facilities, only play in a 45K stadium (as opposed to 100K), have to compete with an elite basketball program (competing for dollars within the school), are from college that isn't particularly big as colleges go (maybe 30K), and it's a college that doesn't have a disproportionately large endowment to pull money from (ala Oklahoma State). Yes, he was crooked and I wasn't sad to see him go, but you can't deny that what he did was the ceiling for a KU football coach because anyone who would do that well would bolt for another, better job in an instant.
Now how about Drew and Baylor? Is this their realistic ceiling? Any elite coach isn't going to stick around for very long and most wouldn't even give them a chance if they're a hot small school prospect. I don't think he's a total abortion as an Xs and Os coach- but he is below average. I think this season, he's lost his team somewhat and that's a factor as much as that he's a below average game coach. There's a factor we haven't talked about much but it's pretty darn important. So when you put that together with the other factors, it's a problem.
That said, you definitely keep him around for another season or two and keep re-evaluating because, if I'm Baylor, I'm not sure how much better I can do.

SI

[mauchow]

Quick question for whoever wants to answer...

List the top three teams with the best ROAD record in Big Ten Play over the past ten seasons?

[sterlingice]

Wisconsin, Michigan State, and Illinois?

SI

[Radii]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Wisconsin, Michigan State, and Illinois

+1. Had anyone but mauboy asked the question I would have listed Michigan State first, but given that I'll even agree with the order you dropped the names.

[sterlingice]

That and the talk of Wisconsin over the last couple of pages. I just picked those three because across the last decade, those are probably the 3 winningest Big 10 programs. Maybe an Ohio State or Purdue gets in there. But those are my best guesses.

SI

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by panerd

See I don't measure talent by NBA because I think Quin may have actually destroyed a lot of their NBA chances. I look at Norm's recruits who were considering Mizzou and maybe Iowa State or SLU and then Quin's like Linus Klieza who were considering North Carolina or Thomas Gardner who was offered at Kansas or Jimmy McKinney who was considering Kentucky and Oklahoma. Seemed to be a huge jump in talent.

Looking back at Mizzou's '04 recruits on rivals apperently UCLA offered to Marshall Brown, Kansas offered to Kalen Grimes, Texas offered to Glen Dandridge, and Michigan and Arkansas offered to Jason Horton.

Mizzou's game just started with KState so I will check back later but I would call that talent.

I know the measure is hard to figure out, but I think this is a bad measure. You can look at any top kid and say "Look at that talent that was destroyed", even if they went to a great program/coach. For all we know Marshall Brown (who?) and Kalen Grimes were going to be busts no matter where they went. When you look at who Steve Lavin had (for am majority of the time), you had Baron Davis, Matt Barnes, Jerome Moiso, Earl Watson, Jaron Rush (Lavs gets a pass on him), Ryan Hollins, Jason Kapono, and Dan Gadzuric. And that was not counting the talent that didn't get him to the Elite 8, which included Charles O'Bannon, Toby Bailey, JR Henderson, Kris Johnson, and Cameron Dollar.