Pro Wrestling Discussion Thread **Spoilers Possible**

[Mota]

If you have more than one World title, you have no world titles.

I'm worried about AEW adding another 2 hour show. If you count 2 hours of Dynamite, 1 hour of Rampage, and now 2 hours Saturday night, I think I might be out. I can't watch that much of one company. When Raw went to 3 hours, it killed me and I stopped watching the product about a year later. Too much of a good thing can still be too much.

[Toddzilla]

I can watch 3 hours, but if it goes to 4 or 5, I'll have to watch 0.

[PilotMan]

I just saw that charges were brought against Ted DiBiase Jr in the Mississippi fraud case. He's looking at real time and his dad's ministry, that he was using and working for was ordered to pay nearly 800k in restitution.

[RainMaker]

So I guess there's now a 3rd world championship being added to WWE? Having too many worthless belts is AEW's gimmick.

[Carman Bulldog]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

So I guess there's now a 3rd world championship being added to WWE? Having too many worthless belts is AEW's gimmick.

How far is WWE from just having sponsored championships at this point? The Mountain Dew Code Red Champion? The Cinnamon Toast Crunch Champion? The Snickers Undisputed Championship?

[RainMaker]

Is it that much different from the TNT or TBS Championship?


I really hate the multiple world champions in one organization thing that WWE does. Say what you will about Roman and his reign, it at least feels important. His matches are a big deal.

[dubb93]

I quite liked the IC and US titles being elevated by Roman’s reign. Instead of Dolph Ziggler vs Miz we have actually gotten some really big players in the secondary title scene. Seth was chasing it for a while, Drew and Sheamus have chased them, and Bobby Lashley is currently challenging for it. With two world titles in the past you would be lucky to get Chad Gable against Miz for a secondary title.

Multiple world champions in a single promotion has always been lazy booking. It’s how we ended up with a generation of mid carders all holding the world title. SPOILER: those should have been IC and US title matches and reigns. But hey, I’m just an old man yelling at clouds. What do I know?

[RainMaker]

Yeah, I don't mind a good mid-card belt if you're going to make the World title special. I just hate the two world champ, same promotion thing.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Is it that much different from the TNT or TBS Championship?


I really hate the multiple world champions in one organization thing that WWE does. Say what you will about Roman and his reign, it at least feels important. His matches are a big deal.

TV Titles have been a thing for many years, TNT or TBS titles are just another way of doing the same thing.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Yeah, I don't mind a good mid-card belt if you're going to make the World title special. I just hate the two world champ, same promotion thing.

Yeah, Roman won't even be the champion of the WWE, let alone the world, if they split the titles.

[molson]

I think Roman's two belts will be consolidated into one, and, maybe he'll challenge for the new one eventually.

I also wonder if they feel like they have to do something big for the Night of Champions show because it's in Saudi Arabia and a lot of their stars (including their tag team champions) might be sitting it out. And maybe someone on the fence will go thete for a world title.

[dubb93]

My kids are so far down the wrestling rabbit hole that they are begging me to take them to a Fozzy concert this weekend.

Did some research and it's an all ages concert. I'm considering it, they love the band and like to put Fozzy concerts on the TV via youtube and dance around the living room. Any good reason not to take them? Ages 7 and 4, outside concert, school is out for the summer so bedtime is irrelevant.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by dubb93

My kids are so far down the wrestling rabbit hole that they are begging me to take them to a Fozzy concert this weekend.

Did some research and it's an all ages concert. I'm considering it, they love the band and like to put Fozzy concerts on the TV via youtube and dance around the living room. Any good reason not to take them? Ages 7 and 4, outside concert, school is out for the summer so bedtime is irrelevant.

It's a great show, seen them twice now. I don't recall anything untoward (language wise) from the stage or anything, he's a definite showman and Rich Ward is a treat to see from a musicianship standpoint (granted, probably lost on most kids that young)

edit to add: Will's take was "nothing in it stronger than stuff that is said on AEW so if you're fine with it then the concert should be fine"

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

It's a great show, seen them twice now. I don't recall anything untoward (language wise) from the stage or anything, he's a definite showman and Rich Ward is a treat to see from a musicianship standpoint (granted, probably lost on most kids that young)

edit to add: Will's take was "nothing in it stronger than stuff that is said on AEW so if you're fine with it then the concert should be fine"

Thanks. I’m less worried about the content of the show and more about the crowd it attracts. I’d much rather have my kids in a pro wrestling fan crowd than a heavy metal crowd for instance.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by dubb93

Thanks. I’m less worried about the content of the show and more about the crowd it attracts. I’d much rather have my kids in a pro wrestling fan crowd than a heavy metal crowd for instance.

I'd personally rather let a random heavy metal fan babysit my small pretend child than a random wrestling fan. Heavy metal unites people.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by Mota

I'd personally rather let a random heavy metal fan babysit my small pretend child than a random wrestling fan. Heavy metal unites people.

One heavy metal fan isn’t the issue. LOL. You know what I mean. I’ve been to RAW, Smackdown, and Ozzfest. There is a different mood in the air when Otis wrestles a Maximum Male Model than when Slipknot hits the stage.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by dubb93

Thanks. I’m less worried about the content of the show and more about the crowd it attracts. I’d much rather have my kids in a pro wrestling fan crowd than a heavy metal crowd for instance.

It's a pretty light crowd in terms of intensity, typically older (not quite my age worth of old) than the baseline metal crowd. 0-for-2 on circle pits (though I did see one of those with Stuck Mojo/Rich in a church building once)

[Mota]

Originally Posted by dubb93

One heavy metal fan isn’t the issue. LOL. You know what I mean. I’ve been to RAW, Smackdown, and Ozzfest. There is a different mood in the air when Otis wrestles a Maximum Male Model than when Slipknot hits the stage.

Yes, I wouldn't suggest you bring them into the pit, you can probably safely be off to the side a bit. They won't be able to see at all if you're right in it.
Also at that age, I think they should still have some sound dampening to protect their ears?

[miami_fan]

Per TMZ

Superstar Billy Graham has passed away at the age of 79.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Catching up on the semi-finals of the Best of Super Juniors from NJPW ... it's been a perfectly fine tournament. A diverse group of talents that had quite a few bangers along the way to the semis. Feels like a changing of the guard in the division with many believing that Hiromu (and possibly another major player?) is heavyweight bound sooner than later.

And therein lies the big difference I believe that's upon us: the junior division is certainly stocked with talent, but it's also years if not a decade away from getting anywhere near the level that Hiromu has taken it.

It returns to being an entertaining undercard component, because I don't see anything in the division that can get into a serious main event discussion for a major show. Nothing wrong with that .. but it's definitely going to be different.

[JonInMiddleGA]

And the reason I prefer NJPW to any & all other wrestling promotions ends up on display during one of the semi-finals: Attention to detail.

It's usually done with callbacks, sometimes references that go back five, even ten, years. This time it was more of a "okay, I don't remember the last time I've seen this thing happen"

You have to follow the product, and fairly closely over an extended period to be honest, to get what any number of subtle things mean but if you do then the payoff is there. There's a much higher bar to entry for NJPW fandom, but there's also a higher ceiling afaic.

[Mota]

I agree about the attention to detail. It's exactly the opposite of the WWE. With the WWE, the more you watch, the less it makes sense. Almost as though someone is writing and rewriting it as the show happens, and the continuity is terrible.
With NJPW, the more you watch, the better it is. I'm watching G1 2020 right now, and Okada is trying to get a new finisher over. They're talking about average match lengths, and how it's going to wear down wrestlers in the late stages of the tournament. They're talking about last year's matches, stats and lifetime wins in the G1. It's fantastic.

Have you watched Stardom at all? I have been watching since Nov 2022 and it is also great! The crazy thing is that it's just as hard hitting as NJPW, I've seen some of the hardest hitting dropkicks that I have no idea how jaws weren't broken. Headbutts that drew blood hard way. And some crazy intense feuds (Tam Nakano and Giulia).

Back around November, Mina Shirakawa took a Phoenix Splash that went wrong and it broke her jaw and several teeth. She still went to the back and gave a full interview, saying that she needed to get revenge for taking this damage. And then months later when she came back, they get a rematch, and Kamitani can't do the Phoenix Splash. She freezes on the top rope. Eventually Shirakawa wins, and they have a great moment as Kamitani puts the belt around her and they forgive each other. Really good stuff!

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Mota

Have you watched Stardom at all? I have been watching since Nov 2022 and it is also great! The crazy thing is that it's just as hard hitting as NJPW, I've seen some of the hardest hitting dropkicks that I have no idea how jaws weren't broken. Headbutts that drew blood hard way. And some crazy intense feuds (Tam Nakano and Giulia).

They had a good chance at getting me into it ... and then they hired "Mercedes Mone" and just felt like they crapped all over their own promotion by doing so.

It felt like "we don't believe in this (as constituted)" and left me feeling like "why should I then?"

[Mota]

Stardom does have a history of bringing in outsiders. Prominence was the 6 person tag champs and they weren't contracted with Stardom. Several of Syuri's recent opponents were also outsiders.
Sasha Banks is also on a per match deal, she's not long term.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I give no shits about Master Wato, and I've been fairly lukewarm about Titan being in LiJ ... but they both did one helluva job in the BoSJ final. It was a banger of a match, the crowd was hot as hell for it, and that IS the job they're supposed to do.

Very well done by both ... as well as whoever acted as the road agent(s) for the match.

[JonInMiddleGA]

The kid channel surfed over to AEW for a bit.

How in the fuck does anybody watch this shit? Good God, this makes WCW look coherent and well booked.

[Mota]

Another 2 hour show for AEW scares the crap outta me. I'd prefer a more coherent set of storylines, and I'm worried it'll be like WWE where they just end up trying to fill time, and you end up with incoherent storylines and matches that are repeated many times.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Mota

and you end up with incoherent storylines and matches that are repeated many times.

As we get a meaningless mixed tag match.

All the talent they have / have access to ... and we get this drizzling shit, with drizzling shit commentary as the cherry on top.

I lived through the decline of WCW, I never thought I'd see anything to rival that, yet here's TK killin it.

[RainMaker]

I usually think the AEW PPVs are pretty good, but I can't really bother with the weekly TV show. The recent PPV had a great Fatal 4-way for the title but I just couldn't get into anything else they were doing.

Maybe Tony was a big ECW fan but I don't get why every other match has to be some silly hardcore stipulation. I'm fine with a hardcore match to blow off a big feud, but AEW just has them to have them. There is nothing special about it anymore and almost no one in the company knows how to sell these days.

I also don't get why you still have guys like Jeff Jarrett in title matches on major PPVs. If you want him backstage helping or putting guys over on TV, fine. But out of all the talented tag teams you have in the company you're using him in a match? Come on. Same goes for the Hardys and a few others. I think Christian is good at what he is but I also don't need him in title matches either.

Just a really weird promotion.

[Mota]

The way they use Sting has been great. He rarely gets in the ring. He's been there to give the rub to Darby Allin.
Jeff Jarrett was great as a 1-2 week thing and got some really good heat, but in 2023, that tag team bores me and I fast forward every time.
The roster is definitely way too big. I just looked at the roster on their page, and there are tons of wrestlers who have wrestled less than 5 matches all year. That's just a waste of talent.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Mota

The way they use Sting has been great. He rarely gets in the ring. He's been there to give the rub to Darby Allin.

The problem I had with Sting last night specifically had nothing to do with him.

Embassy surrounds the ring after Doofus Darby & Pockets Cassidy win their match. Beatdown looming ... but here comes Sting, slow walking the aisle with his bat. That's still fine by me.

Where it fell apart was, as my astute child pointed out, they just let Sting walk his ass down & slide into the ring, not only no effort to stop him but hell, no effort to impede his progress at all.

Among those surrounding the ring was Brian Cage. Now I've always thought he was an overrated stiff but how weak does he look if he literally steps aside just short of cowering at the approach OF A SIXTY FOUR YEAR OLD MAN !?!?!?

The sequence made the entire stable look like a bunch of buffoons if you thought about what occurred for even half a second.

That ain't Sting's fault.

[RainMaker]

This company has Jay White on the roster and used him as a throw-in in a battle royal for their 3rd tier title.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I give no shits about Master Wato, and I've been fairly lukewarm about Titan being in LiJ ... but they both did one helluva job in the BoSJ final. It was a banger of a match, the crowd was hot as hell for it, and that IS the job they're supposed to do.

Very well done by both ... as well as whoever acted as the road agent(s) for the match.

I'm watching BOSJ 2020 right now, and Master Wato looks like a geek to me. But 2 1/2 years is a lot of time for him to develop.

I've seen pics of the new Yota Tsuji, and he is still a young lion at the point that I'm at. I can't believe how different he looks.

And yes, it's weird that I'm still watching 2020 wrestling, but there are tons of great matches that I would miss forever if I just skipped to today, so I might as well keep watching sequentially. It WILL be weird when I go to Forbidden Door later this month with 3 year's ago knowledge of the NJPW guys though.

[JonInMiddleGA]

As expected, G1 Climax 33 field announced tonight at NJPW Dominion.

And, as I feared, it's a 32 man field this year. That's a LOT of filler.

It'll end up one of two ways:
1) Multiple, and it would need to be several given the amount of questionable entrants, people provide Lance Archer-esque breakout performances and forever change how they're perceived

or

2) There'll be a lot of opportunities for fast-forwarding through matches for anybody watching on a delayed basis

[Mota]

I noticed there's a lot of Jr Heavyweights in there.
Seems interesting though, I guess they do 4 groups of 8? 7 matches each? That's a lot of total matches to put on, though (and watch).
I just finished G1 2020 and found it to be a bit dull. To me, 2019 was one of the best years ever, the G1 and BOSJ tourneys were just incredible.

[Mota]

Forbidden Door matches announced:
Bryan Danielson vs. Okada
Ospreay vs. Omega for IWGP US Title

That's a great start!

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Mota

I noticed there's a lot of Jr Heavyweights in there.
Seems interesting though, I guess they do 4 groups of 8? 7 matches each? That's a lot of total matches to put on, though (and watch).
I just finished G1 2020 and found it to be a bit dull. To me, 2019 was one of the best years ever, the G1 and BOSJ tourneys were just incredible.

It's a grind, an endurance test for the workers and the viewers.

Last year was almost unwatchable at times, doing 1 match from each block each night destroyed any sense of continuity at no point after a couple days did I feel like I had a clue who was advancing or where anybody stood.

How they'll format it with the even larger blocks this year I don't know.

[cartman]

The Iron Sheik has passed away at the age of 81.

WWE legend The Iron Shiek passes away at 81

[SirFozzie]

RIP Shieky Baby..

[Lathum]

Iron Sheik has performed his last camel clutch.

[molson]

Mean Gene/Sheik interviews were amazing.

Gene would would use Sheik's real name, Sheik would call Gene an "intelligent jew businessman".

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Mota

Forbidden Door matches announced:
Bryan Danielson vs. Okada
Ospreay vs. Omega for IWGP US Title

That's a great start!

I haven't had much interest in AEW lately but I'll buy that just for those 2 matches.

[JonInMiddleGA]

MJF to Adam Cole "You have a physique that makes crack whores jealous"

[JonInMiddleGA]

And from the sublime to the ridiculous, from that segment (which kinda under delivered overall tbh) to something with Hook & Jungle Child

[RainMaker]

I liked the MJF segment. Cole was a little cringe in his response but it sort of worked. It's just real tough to go up against MJF on a mic.

[SirFozzie]

My thoughts on the first episode of Collision, taken from elsewhere.

Count me on the side of those not impressed by the opening promo. Why? A couple of reasons. 1) It smacked of the Insider Knowledge "fake shoot comments that are really shoot comments" bs. 2) It didn't do a thing to sell the main event of your very first show. (which is something I'll get back to).

Women's Tag Match: If they don't give Skye Blue some gold in the next six months, they're missing an opportunity. It'd probably have to be new Women's Tag Team Championships, but has anyone had more of a rocket push over the space of a few weeks.

AEI/Buddy Matthews was 10 pounds of great in a six pound bag.

Other than Christian Cage's celebration, did Luchasaurus/Wardlow mean anything or do anything for the TNT title? It feels like we're in a "I dunno what we're going to do with this title going forward, so let's switch it every couple months so it feels like anything can happen". I honestly think that the International Title has moved in front of the TNT title because despite it only having one champion,. it's been defended often, and more and more often, you've been given compelling reasons to watch the match and to guess about what's going to happen.

Miro kicks ass well. Nese takes a ass kicking well. That makes a good segment, but not one I'm sure really deserves to be on the debut episode of a new show.

Now, the main event. First off, I will say in the bounds of what it was, it is a good story they're telling. However, it didn't do a thing really to use the Impetus of Punk's return match to make their opponents. Jay White (especially) and Juice Robinson really could have used this to springboard up in the fans eyes, but did Punk speak about them and build them up in his promo? Did they get a chance to speak on their own behalf? No. That's why, to me at least some of this is "You didn't beat anybody because you made no body" (Sorry, Bully Ray, for butchering your oft-quoted promo). We KNOW Joe's an ass kicker, but from an AEW centric point of view, is there any reason one of your top stars in his return match ISN'T going to go over two guys who are fairly new to the company and haven't been placed at Punk's level? It's almost literally "These are guys who Punk can have a good match with for workrate with no doubt who wins", and the fact that there was no real promo time or buildup from either side of it proves it.

Combined, makes me put this in the good but not great side with glaring holes

(I forgot to give One Dill Pickle Phil (sorry, couldn't resist) deserved props for taking the LGBT sign into the ring post-show. )

edit:

and one last bit that may explain my antipathy towards the show. I am a fan of AEW. Will freely admit it. It seemed to me like two major parts of Collision were rewarding people who were assholes (off screen) in AEW. That being Punk and AEI. It feels weird that they're getting rewarded for being off-screen assholes.



I'm going to use a pretty weird analogy here, but if AEW is a skyscraper under forever construction, the actions of AEI and Punk came off more like someone taking a wrecking ball to the skyscraper from the inside, and being rewarded for it. Weird analogy, but while I think they're good wrestlers, I don't think their past actions towards the company they were contracted for deserved being rewarded with a whole show dedicated to them

[JonInMiddleGA]

My offspring had a morbid curiosity so I had to endure Saturday Nitro.

I could weep at Kevin Kelly - the best in the business right now afaic - being associated with this abomination but we all got bills to pay I guess.

I'll just toss a few random observations in, with full acknowledgement that I consider AEW - as it has evolved - to be the worst thing to happen to professional wrestling since Vince Russo got a job.|

-- Skye Blue looked at least 4-5 years away from being ready for TV to me. And don't even get me started on Willow. It's not either of their faults, I don't blame them personally, but neither should be anywhere near a TV taping without buying a ticket.

-- I couldn't care less about Miro but I thought that match was actually booked/agented fairly well

-- Cage/Lucha deal seemed to be mostly about setting up their eventual split and a Luchasaurus face turn. They didn't make enough of it but if you could read Cage's lips/hear the faint audio when he's on the turnbuckle he says "I did it", while ignoring the poor dino completely.

-- for as many shit show elements as there are with AEW, perhaps none (other than poor ol' JR) is worse than the godawful ring announcer chick. She's horrific.

-- Andrade/Matthews was fine, both worked harder than the situation deserved. And bonus points for the dumbass ring announcer calling him Buddy Murphy in the introductions

-- White had so little involvement in the ring tonight I seriously wonder if he's nursing an injury. That was almost Tanahashi level of not doing much other than being there. Joe actually looked better than I'd seen him look in a while.

[SirFozzie]

Kelly really had an off night with several flubs, but hopefully it's first night jitters.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Kelly really had an off night with several flubs, but hopefully it's first night jitters.

Yeah, I caught a couple of those at least.

But for the love of all that's decent, PLEASE get JR off the air. It's pitiful.

[Carman Bulldog]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Count me on the side of those not impressed by the opening promo. Why? A couple of reasons. 1) It smacked of the Insider Knowledge "fake shoot comments that are really shoot comments" bs. 2) It didn't do a thing to sell the main event of your very first show. (which is something I'll get back to).

They put themselves in a weird spot, because if you just ignore it entirely, people would complain about that as well.