Mizzou Player Strike

[panerd]

Originally Posted by nol

Because it's in solidarity with a larger student movement that began in response to recent events. Pretty crazy that African-American football players could have concerns beyond scoring touchdowns and making panerd happy with a win every Saturday, but that's the world we live in.

Thanks for not reading anything I have written in the entire thread but your typical race flaming is noted.

[nol]

Originally Posted by panerd

Thanks for not reading anything I have written in the entire thread but your typical race flaming is noted.

OK, so your insinuation is that the football players (never mind that they have the support of the entire coaching staff) are using this as an excuse to quit on their team and school when really they're just mad that the team has a losing record. Therefore, they aren't "true Mizzou Tigers" so good riddance to them. That's even stupider, so I apologize for giving you the benefit of the doubt.

[CU Tiger]

I'm personally confounded here. I actually agree with the stance and the sentiment behind the stance.

I'm not a big fan of the "demands" and I HATE any institution cowering to hostage demands on my shear principle alone.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by nol

OK, so your insinuation is that the football players (never mind that they have the support of the entire coaching staff) are using this as an excuse to quit on their team and school when really they're just mad that the team has a losing record. Therefore, they aren't "true Mizzou Tigers" so good riddance to them. That's even stupider, so I apologize for giving you the benefit of the doubt.

Nope didn't say that either. I have posted about six times in the thread. I'm very familiar with Columbia... My brother lives there and I lived there for ten years. Again you are welcome to read my posts or just make ridiculous recaps but I know you are a race baiter so I don't expect any intelligent dialogue from you anyways.

[digamma]

Demand 1 is definitely over the top, and I have no knowledge of what the 1969 demands were, but the others seem very workable.

[nol]

Originally Posted by panerd

so I don't expect any intelligent dialogue from you anyways.

says the person who is glossing over "the university has recently and publicly turned a deaf ear to students expressing concerns over an ugly pattern of racial harassment on campus" and heading straight to "FOOTBAW TEAM HAS LOSING RECORD" when considering why the players could be going on strike.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by nol

says the person who is glossing over "the university has recently and publicly turned a deaf ear to students expressing concerns over an ugly pattern of racial harassment on campus" and heading straight to "FOOTBAW TEAM HAS LOSING RECORD" when considering why the players could be going on strike.

I see you still haven't read any of my posts in this thread but now you decided to add the dumb white guy accent because you know race baiting is even more fun you don't read and just post nonsense.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The whole thing is weird. Not specific to this but all over the country. 20 year olds telling professors how to teach their classes and administrators how to run their schools. If you're smarter than them, why are you spending money to go to college?

The industry has spent a couple of decades selling the student as customer model and the customer is always right. I actually understand the attitude, even if I disagree with it. We tell them X money will get Y diploma and Z job. When that equation gets threatened due to poor grades they feel like they've been lied to.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by panerd

Thanks for not reading anything I have written in the entire thread but your typical race flaming is noted.

It was definitely a reasonable insinuation as to what you wrote, to be honest. I had the same (non posted, obv) response as nol did to your post. You may not have intended it, but that's how it came across.

FWIW, I think this is actually somewhat inspiring. And for the entire team and coaches to back them as well. That's some fantastic civil disobedience stuff. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. would have been proud, I think.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by digamma

Demand 1 is definitely over the top, and I have no knowledge of what the 1969 demands were, but the others seem very workable.

Would you be cool if they added another one to ensure that at least 75% of the players were white? Or is that gonna relate back to the "white privilege" of #1 and therefore void?

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by nol

says the person who is glossing over "the university has recently and publicly turned a deaf ear to students expressing concerns over an ugly pattern of racial harassment on campus" and heading straight to "FOOTBAW TEAM HAS LOSING RECORD" when considering why the players could be going on strike.

To be fair, you've glossed over those concerns as well, but not the opportunity to suggest somebody's racist, per usual.

[nol]

Originally Posted by Dutch

To be fair, you've glossed over those concerns as well, but not the opportunity to suggest somebody's racist, per usual.

No, I already understood those concerns, as well as the fact that things had gotten signficantly worse over the past week or two (shit swastika was October 24). That's why I didn't need to repeatedly question the timing in the first place.

Originally Posted by panerd

Thas been going on around campus for a while now so I find the protest during a 4-5 season a little disingenuous.

Originally Posted by panerd

But again I ask why now? Why not during their top ten ranked seasons the past two years? Why not when they were highly ranked and 3-0 early in the year. It is just a big eye roll to me that they are now fired up about racial issues after rolling off five losses including an ass kicking Thursday night.

He asked, I answered.

[B & B]

As foretold in prophecy..........

[digamma]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Would you be cool if they added another one to ensure that at least 75% of the players were white? Or is that gonna relate back to the "white privilege" of #1 and therefore void?

Are you that fixated on the 10% number? Seems an odd thing to focus on. Like I said the first demand reads over the top, but the others are well crafted and seem to have a good amount of thought behind them. I'll give you the fact that I haven't researched the Missouri university system hiring demographics and hard quotas aren't typically the best policy, but target numbers can be helpful in measuring progress and eliminating more subtle forms of discrimination.

[tarcone]

A bunch of students are a hunger strike.

[NobodyHere]

Why should there be any number?

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Why should there be any number?

Because different backgrounds bring different worldviews to the table, and part of higher education is learning to critically examine things from multiple viewpoints?

That doesn't mean that 10% is magically the right number, but 10% is better than 5%. Or 1%.

I mean, the whole "viewpoints" battle is being fought in primary education, too; it's just that the students at that level aren't sufficiently sophisticated to be able to advocate for "hey, these marginalized groups aren't getting a seat at the table."

I mean, good Lord. Look at the shitstorm it causes when people suggest that, "hey, maybe Christopher Columbus isn't somebody we should be celebrating, because he was a really dark dude who did some awful shit in the process of "discovering the New World.'"

Now think about how, if it's that difficult for people of a certain background to acknowledge that about a guy who's been dead for four hundred years, how much harder it is to get traction on other, more recent, issues. Particularly within certain collegiate disciplines (history comes to mind). If you increase minority participation at the staff level, you bring in people whose walk in life has been different, and who thus bring different perspectives to various liberal arts studies (that's not to say minority participation doesn't matter in math or science, but the extent to which it matters differs from liberal arts, where course selection is going to be much more a matter of the focus of the faculty members' respective studies).

[NobodyHere]

Meh, any idiot can get a different viewpoints by spending 5 minutes on the internet, but hiring somebody by the color of their skin seems racist.

[nol]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Meh, any idiot can get a different viewpoints by spending 5 minutes on the internet, but hiring somebody by the color of their skin seems racist.

It sure does, which is why such policies are in place.

[NobodyHere]

So crack down on the real problem. I'm not a big fan of fighting racism with more racism.

[nol]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

So crack down on the real problem. I'm not a big fan of fighting racism with more racism.

So you would be happier with requiring everyone to fill out a resume as John Doe from 123 Main Street, using an e-mail address that obscures all personal details, and banning in-person job interviews? That seems like a lot of hoops to jump through to achieve the same result.

But really, responding any more to that particular point is just letting you move the goalposts. Obviously all demands by the students could be negotiated, but the bulk of the issue has been that the university president has been at best willfully obtuse and at worst downright antagonistic towards their concerns. If at any point in the past few weeks or months this person had put out even the most generic "We are all Mizzou Tigers and we are committed to providing a safe environment and preventing harassment" type of statement, it would not have gotten this far.

[RainMaker]

If it's a matter of diversity among faculty, it would seem the complaint should be against Asian faculty. They currently make up 16% of the staff yet only 2% of the students are Asian.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by digamma

Are you that fixated on the 10% number? Seems an odd thing to focus on. Like I said the first demand reads over the top, but the others are well crafted and seem to have a good amount of thought behind them. I'll give you the fact that I haven't researched the Missouri university system hiring demographics and hard quotas aren't typically the best policy, but target numbers can be helpful in measuring progress and eliminating more subtle forms of discrimination.

I measure success by equal opportunity, not by equal right. So I will always cringe when I see things like that. I would rather focus on *why* the numbers aren't where they should be...kind of like how we have successfully done with the athletes themselves. A long time ago, all the black athlete needed was an opportunity to prove him or herself...not a quota. It's a stupid idea that does nothing but divide us. Like I've said in this thread, if the prez is a road block because he's a racist or white supremacist or incompetent...or basically anything that is hampering his ability to be fair towards all students... he needs to go...but what if he isn't any of those things? What if he is concerned about all kids but isn't making rash changes with discussing them with his staff? I don't know what's going on though (hence the earlier call for better information ) I don't believe he should be scared and lay down and accept demands like these...if it takes time to thoughtfully do the job, then the students need to chill.

In any event, back to the list of demands, If UM were to give up on equal opportunity and go the equal share route, are you okay with that being in all aspects of this school or not? That's what I'm asking.

[CraigSca]

Heard this morning (via ESPON) that not all the players are on board with the cancellation of football activities. "Half the team and coaches - black and white - are pissed."

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Can somebody explain what Tim Wolfe did wrong? This particle article's explanation is shit.

Originally Posted by nol

Because it's in solidarity with a larger student movement that began in response to recent events. Pretty crazy that African-American football players could have concerns beyond scoring touchdowns and making panerd happy with a win every Saturday, but that's the world we live in.

Originally Posted by nol

OK, so your insinuation is that the football players (never mind that they have the support of the entire coaching staff) are using this as an excuse to quit on their team and school when really they're just mad that the team has a losing record. Therefore, they aren't "true Mizzou Tigers" so good riddance to them. That's even stupider, so I apologize for giving you the benefit of the doubt.

Originally Posted by nol

says the person who is glossing over "the university has recently and publicly turned a deaf ear to students expressing concerns over an ugly pattern of racial harassment on campus" and heading straight to "FOOTBAW TEAM HAS LOSING RECORD" when considering why the players could be going on strike.

Originally Posted by Dutch

To be fair, you've glossed over those concerns as well, but not the opportunity to suggest somebody's racist, per usual.

Originally Posted by nol

No, I already understood those concerns, as well as the fact that things had gotten signficantly worse over the past week or two (shit swastika was October 24). That's why I didn't need to repeatedly question the timing in the first place.

He asked, I answered.

Sorry, nol, in this thread, I asked what he did wrong because I couldn't figure out based on the articles that I read what it was that he failed at so badly that they want him to sign some wildly racist document that said he was a "white privileged male". The only responses I saw from you were mean-spirited, at best...when you could've actually helped me or other "white folks" out since you "already understood those concerns".

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

Heard this morning (via ESPON) that not all the players are on board with the cancellation of football activities. "Half the team and coaches - black and white - are pissed."

So the players are PRO-CHOICE? Interesting dilemma.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by Dutch

So the players are PRO-CHOICE? Interesting dilemma.

I know you are making a joke but just wait. The real crux of this whole issue is going to come out sometime this week and it is all about the chancellor and his stance on planned parenthood. The rest is window dressing and a bunch of college kids being roped into fighting a battle for the teachers. They tried getting rid of him already a few weeks ago.

And before Nol posts some nonsense about black people of course there are racial problems on the campus. In the five/six posts that he ignored from me I said the city and campus have some serious problems. Doesn't mean that is what this is about and doesn't mean I can't question the timing.

More than 2,000 petitions delivered to MU chancellor Loftin | FOX2now.com

Rep.: Chancellor Loftin's job on the line over Planned Parenthood | KOMU.com | Columbia, MO |

http://www.stltoday.com/business/loc...48f09fc6a.html

[panerd]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

It was definitely a reasonable insinuation as to what you wrote, to be honest. I had the same (non posted, obv) response as nol did to your post. You may not have intended it, but that's how it came across.

FWIW, I think this is actually somewhat inspiring. And for the entire team and coaches to back them as well. That's some fantastic civil disobedience stuff. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. would have been proud, I think.

Fair enough. I clearly am not articulating my stance very well. However I still will say that I have made plenty of posts in this thread talking about racism at Mizzou and the chancellor and his problems with the Greeks and planned parenthood. Nol just chose to jump on the one that he could go into his race bag of tricks on.

If anything I selfishly wouldn't mind seeing the guy fired because me and my friends are going to the game next week, my brother has a big thing planned this week in KC, and I love Mizzou football. So him putting words in my mouth about some sort of JiMGa "kick em all out of school!" is 180 degrees from my stance.

[Dutch]

If anything I selfishly wouldn't mind seeing the guy fired because me and my friends are going to the game next week

Way to go, nol just scratched you off his Christmas card list. This isn't about scoring touchdowns, Panerd!

[panerd]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Way to go, nol just scratched you off his Christmas card list. This isn't about scoring touchdowns, Panerd!

It's frustrating. This happened in the Ferguson thread as well. When that event first happened a bunch of people were describing this St. Louis "suburb" like it was Mayfield from Leave it to Beaver or something. The same thing is going on here with the limited information the media is latching onto about Mizzou. So of course Nol is an expert and people that actually know something are racist idiots. What's more surprising is that some of the other familiar faces haven't appeared yet. I guess the Huffington Post and Slate.com haven't given them enough talking points yet.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by Dutch

In any event, back to the list of demands, If UM were to give up on equal opportunity and go the equal share route, are you okay with that being in all aspects of this school or not? That's what I'm asking.

Well, given that I told you I was not generally in favor of hard quotas, I think you know my answer here, but this isn't a real question either. Is there a pattern or history of systemic under representation of white athletes at Missouri? And is it, even in part, based on their race? If no, what problem are you trying to fix?

[digamma]

And I'll be the first to admit I don't have the answer here. It's just easy to speak in platitudes and absolutes when the underlying issues are really really complex, from a lot of different angles.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by panerd

I know you are making a joke but just wait. The real crux of this whole issue is going to come out sometime this week and it is all about the chancellor and his stance on planned parenthood. The rest is window dressing and a bunch of college kids being roped into fighting a battle for the teachers. They tried getting rid of him already a few weeks ago.

And before Nol posts some nonsense about black people of course there are racial problems on the campus. In the five/six posts that he ignored from me I said the city and campus have some serious problems. Doesn't mean that is what this is about and doesn't mean I can't question the timing.

More than 2,000 petitions delivered to MU chancellor Loftin | FOX2now.com

Rep.: Chancellor Loftin's job on the line over Planned Parenthood | KOMU.com | Columbia, MO |

http://www.stltoday.com/business/loc...48f09fc6a.html

So the students are being manipulated by faculty to complain about documented racial insensitivity issues? If it weren't for faculty angry about a denied appointment, none of this would be happening?

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by digamma

Well, given that I told you I was not generally in favor of hard quotas, I think you know my answer here, but this isn't a real question either. Is there a pattern or history of systemic under representation of white athletes at Missouri? And is it, even in part, based on their race? If no, what problem are you trying to fix?

I'm glad that you aren't. I think it's a no-win solution. In any event, I'm trying to see what the reaction would be if it were white kids posting demands for more access to football scholarships. It's kind of hard when it's based on equal opportunity...which is the point. You must always strive for that and when you have equal opportunity (versus some nebulus equal right based on your skin pigmentation) then the argument for why things are the way they are stands on it's own. Quotas will make us lose sight of the ultimate goal we are trying to achieve in this country.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by digamma

And I'll be the first to admit I don't have the answer here. It's just easy to speak in platitudes and absolutes when the underlying issues are really really complex, from a lot of different angles.

Good point. Another reason I don't think we should burn this president at the stake because he didn't have the answer within 24 hours.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

So the students are being manipulated by faculty to complain about documented racial insensitivity issues? If it weren't for faculty angry about a denied appointment, none of this would be happening?

The students are being manipulated by Jonathan Butler. (The hunger strike guy right now) Sort of a jack of all trades in the University of Missouri protest movement.

The start of a movement: Graduate students walk out – The Maneater

Here is the list of different protests/issues so far this year (like most college campuses some of the protests are legit and some are just protests to protest)...

The Maneater – Special Section – A Historic Fall at MU

My whole point is this only gains national traction because somehow the football team is convinced to get involved. And back to my "racist" point... if the football team is 8-1 or 9-0 and not 4-5 does any of this happen?

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by digamma

And I'll be the first to admit I don't have the answer here. It's just easy to speak in platitudes and absolutes when the underlying issues are really really complex, from a lot of different angles.

Actually, it's rather hard to speak on issues like this anymore. You can have a reasoned opinion, but if someone believes you framed it in the wrong way, it can be extremely damaging.

I have mixed emotions on all of this. I've read the "demand" letter and find about 30% of it is nonsense. I agree with some of it though and think the university should take some action. If race relations are truly poor in Columbia, there should be and should have been some things done to TRY to improve things.

Problem for this president now. . . Anyone and I mean anyone who says ANYTHING against this protest, is going to be hit with the racist label. He really has no chance in hell of surviving this thing. He may have been a good president, he may have been garbage, he may be the next Hitler. None of that matters. He is "wrong" on certain issues in his work environment. It's time to let this thing play out. He needs to resign, the university will hire a new president, things will stay the same and everyone can start pretending that "healing" has begun.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by panerd

The students are being manipulated by Jonathan Butler. (The hunger strike guy right now) Sort of a jack of all trades in the University of Missouri protest movement.

The start of a movement: Graduate students walk out – The Maneater

Here is the list of different protests/issues so far this year (like most college campuses some of the protests are legit and some are just protests to protest)...

The Maneater – Special Section – A Historic Fall at MU

My whole point is this only gains national traction because somehow the football team is convinced to get involved. And back to my "racist" point... if the football team is 8-1 or 9-0 and not 4-5 does any of this happen?

Saying someone worked to convince the football team to join is a whole lot different than saying the racial issues wouldn't be an issue if it were for faculty manipulating things behind the scenes.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by panerd

Fair enough. I clearly am not articulating my stance very well. However I still will say that I have made plenty of posts in this thread talking about racism at Mizzou and the chancellor and his problems with the Greeks and planned parenthood. Nol just chose to jump on the one that he could go into his race bag of tricks on.

If anything I selfishly wouldn't mind seeing the guy fired because me and my friends are going to the game next week, my brother has a big thing planned this week in KC, and I love Mizzou football. So him putting words in my mouth about some sort of JiMGa "kick em all out of school!" is 180 degrees from my stance.

I don't particularly think "race bag of tricks" is a helpful statement. IIRC, nol is African-American? If so, I can understand being a bit more touchy. I gave you more of a benefit of the doubt, but I'm South Asian, so it's different for me.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Saying someone worked to convince the football team to join is a whole lot different than saying the racial issues wouldn't be an issue if it were for faculty manipulating things behind the scenes.

Sure but my point all along has been there are certainly racial issues but the poop swastika makes for a convenient cover for Jonathan Butler's agenda.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I don't particularly think "race bag of tricks" is a helpful statement. IIRC, nol is African-American? If so, I can understand being a bit more touchy. I gave you more of a benefit of the doubt, but I'm South Asian, so it's different for me.

He's also highly educated and exceptionally bright, so I expect better from him.

[cartman]

Tim Wolfe just resigned.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Dutch

He's also highly educated and exceptionally bright, so I expect better from him.

When you feel attacked, you are going to be more upset than those who can stand by the side. Especially when its been going on for ages, and people simply can't understand, or act like they can't understand. Plenty of highly educated and exceptionally bright people can't figure out stuff like... oh white privilege to bring up something earlier from this thread - and that's like elementary school stuff.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by Dutch

He's also highly educated and exceptionally bright, so I expect better from him.

Yep. I am usually a lot more lenient of even the most liberal on these issues but this guy is just a race baiter. If he wants to use a fake Southern accent mocking me, having never met me, I hardly feel sorry for him just because he is black.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by cartman

Tim Wolfe just resigned.

Probably a good thing long term but a terrible precedent to set.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by panerd

Yep. I am usually a lot more lenient of even the most liberal on these issues but this guy is just a race baiter. If he wants to use a fake Southern accent mocking me, having never met me, I hardly feel sorry for him just because he is black.

Honestly, dude? No one is asking you to feel sorry for anyone. But this kind of statement, even if just careless, demonstrates the lack of sensitivity and awareness you have repeatedly shown on this issue (regardless of the positions nol has taken).

[digamma]

Yes, really.

[ISiddiqui]

Whoa... panerd, WTF?

[panerd]

Deleting questionable messages. No conspiracy just never really intended to derail thread.

[bob]

Wonder how long until player strikes to get paid happen. Wonder how many teams it would take.

Edit: I'm not connecting this instance with the pay-for-play issue, but players will see the power that a football team has if they threaten to walk off, mid-season.