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Old 05-26-2005, 05:12 PM   #51
Celeval
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Any opinions on 6.5 aside, will someone please spread the word that algorithm is spelled with an 'i'. :-)

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Old 05-26-2005, 05:44 PM   #52
waitforit
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The two new features that I'm most excited about are, number 1 improved CPU AI building their team in free agency and trades. Second, the Japanese and Cuban free agents seems like a very cool thing to me, I've been waiting for it for years, proposed these types of players be manually put in the game in OOTP leagues, and finally have it. There seems to be enough new features to make this update worth 10 dollars.
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Old 05-26-2005, 05:47 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Celeval
Any opinions on 6.5 aside, will someone please spread the word that algorithm is spelled with an 'i'. :-)

Al Gore rythms are hot.
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Old 05-26-2005, 05:53 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbmagic
wasnt ootp 6 a new engine too ?

Yes, a new engine, but hindered by the surrounding infrastructure that's been in place from day one. The DIPS piece worked, and worked well. However, to do things such as have GB/FB tendencies effect homeruns (along with a myriad of other things) it's sometimes "easier" (yet takes much more time) to start from square one. OOTP7 will give him the opportunity to do so.

I know of a few things off the top of my head that are going into OOTP7 to make the game more realistic and at a much more micro level than people are used to.
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Old 05-26-2005, 05:54 PM   #55
MizzouRah
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbmagic
here one guy opinion on 6.5 Expansion at OOTP forum

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...&postcount=240

Who is he, someone special? I could give 2 sheets about his opinion. So he doesn't buy it and that's that... who cares?

It's an EXPANSION pack, similar to something C&C would have with one of their games. If people don't want to spend the $10, fine... don't.

Until I've played some seasons with it, I'm holding off on comments about the extra charge.. except for the fact that IF the additions advertised work and work well without Skydog type modifications, I'll be happy.

If it works well, I'll have a huge baseball fix until v7.


Todd
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Old 05-26-2005, 06:19 PM   #56
kcchief19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MizzouRah
Who is he, someone special? I could give 2 sheets about his opinion. So he doesn't buy it and that's that... who cares?

It's an EXPANSION pack, similar to something C&C would have with one of their games. If people don't want to spend the $10, fine... don't.

Until I've played some seasons with it, I'm holding off on comments about the extra charge.. except for the fact that IF the additions advertised work and work well without Skydog type modifications, I'll be happy.

If it works well, I'll have a huge baseball fix until v7.


Todd
Fanboy.
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Old 05-26-2005, 06:38 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by kcchief19
Fanboy.

He's right though.
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Old 05-26-2005, 06:48 PM   #58
korme
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waitforit
The two new features that I'm most excited about are, number 1 improved CPU AI building their team in free agency and trades. Second, the Japanese and Cuban free agents seems like a very cool thing to me, I've been waiting for it for years, proposed these types of players be manually put in the game in OOTP leagues, and finally have it. There seems to be enough new features to make this update worth 10 dollars.

The JBL is 3 years ahead of Markus. We've been adding gaijin "Japanese term for foreigners" into our league since the beginning..
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Old 05-26-2005, 07:02 PM   #59
jbmagic
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MizzouRah

is 100% correct.

i cant wait for it to come out. some nice new features for only 10 bucks.

my only concern was if there was going to be any update patches for 6.5.

Markus reply at ootp saying he would support any fixes, bugs, etc for 6.5

With Skydog as one of the beta tester, you know this new version expansion will be solid.

Last edited by jbmagic : 05-26-2005 at 07:02 PM.
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Old 05-26-2005, 07:46 PM   #60
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As long as the CLUTCH rating is still in there, it's ALL GOOD!!!!!!

Don't badmouth my CLUTCH!
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Old 05-26-2005, 07:57 PM   #61
Draft Dodger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbmagic
With Skydog as one of the beta tester, you know this new version expansion will be solid.

*cheap shot warning*

SkyDog also was a beta tester for TPF...


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Old 05-26-2005, 07:58 PM   #62
MizzouRah
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kcchief19
Fanboy.

Damn right.

When all is said and done, I've played ootp more than any other text sim... at least that I know of off the top of my head.

I finally started getting back into 6.12 after Skydog posted his findings and settings.. now with this news, I'm excited to say the least.


Todd
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Old 05-26-2005, 08:00 PM   #63
MizzouRah
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draft Dodger
*cheap shot warning*

SkyDog also was a beta tester for TPF...


Only the draft portion of it.. which, for the most part, was about the one thing I liked about the game.





Todd

Last edited by MizzouRah : 05-26-2005 at 08:01 PM.
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Old 05-26-2005, 08:03 PM   #64
jbmagic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MizzouRah
Only the draft portion of it.. which, for the most part, was about the one thing I liked about the game.





Todd


try it now 1.43 latest he just updated 1.43 again.

it pretty solid. not bad for a 2nd pro football game behind FOF
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Old 05-26-2005, 08:57 PM   #65
MizzouRah
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbmagic
try it now 1.43 latest he just updated 1.43 again.

it pretty solid. not bad for a 2nd pro football game behind FOF

With FOF satisfying my pro text sim needs, I'll save the cash. I am interested in the college sim though.


Todd
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Old 05-27-2005, 05:37 AM   #66
Ragone
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So where is the online head to head play?
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Old 05-27-2005, 09:30 AM   #67
Rizon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragone
So where is the online head to head play?

Does 6.5 come with a new manual?
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Old 05-27-2005, 11:31 AM   #68
jbmagic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rizon
Does 6.5 come with a new manual?


It should. because 6.5 is consider a new version.

like going from 4 to 5 to 6, etc
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Old 05-27-2005, 11:56 AM   #69
kcchief19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragone
So where is the online head to head play?
Quote:
Originally Posted by http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/newsletters/nl0010/
AND Coming Soon to an OOTP Baseball Game Near You!
A boon to multi-player leagues, full head-to-head play over the Internet!
I think that's what rubs me the wrong way about this. If the promised features of 6.0 were in place and working, then I think an upgrade to 6.5 for a small fee would make sense and be reasonable. But since OOTP 6 was released with certain claims that were never fulfilled, I think it's sketch to release an upgrade to the game and expect customers to pay for it when you still haven't give them what you promised in the first place.

There have been some other games that have done similar things, such as promise certain features and the decided to hold them off for a new version. It would be one thing if OOPT advertised H2H and then at launch said it wouldn't be included, but when you bought 6.0 they said H2H was coming soon. I suppose it's possible that they could still release a patch for 6.13 that would include H2H, so I won't close the door completely on that.

This doesn't make me want to swear off OOTP, but it does reduce the warm and fuzziness you feel for the game and makes me less committed to purchasing a future product. But I also understand the economic realities -- you have to get paid for your work.

I don't think it's a rook for OOTP to make customers pay for 6.5, but I certainly understand why someone would think it was a rook.
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Old 05-27-2005, 12:20 PM   #70
CraigSca
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I forget what the issues involved in not putting out head to head, but I think there were some technical hoops that seemed insurmountable at the time.

At one point, he did have an option where you could watch your multi-player games played over the internet ala ESPN with MLB. I thought that was really cool and flipped when I saw it. I'm not sure why that feature never saw the light of day...
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Old 05-27-2005, 12:33 PM   #71
jbmagic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigSca

At one point, he did have an option where you could watch your multi-player games played over the internet ala ESPN with MLB. I thought that was really cool and flipped when I saw it. I'm not sure why that feature never saw the light of day...


its there on 6.12 still

my commish in an online league does it sometimes for the playoffs.

it pretty cool watching it live.
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Old 05-27-2005, 12:52 PM   #72
Draft Dodger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kcchief19
There have been some other games that have done similar things, such as promise certain features and the decided to hold them off for a new version. It would be one thing if OOPT advertised H2H and then at launch said it wouldn't be included, but when you bought 6.0 they said H2H was coming soon. I suppose it's possible that they could still release a patch for 6.13 that would include H2H, so I won't close the door completely on that.

Go ahead and close the door because it's not going to happen.
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Old 05-27-2005, 01:13 PM   #73
Ramzavail
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Its cheaper than a hot dog and a beer at Shea, I think its reasonable for me.
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Old 05-31-2005, 01:19 PM   #74
jbmagic
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Markus posted this in ootp forum. if you miss it.

" Put OOTP 6.5 feature requests here
You know how it goes, sometimes there is a feature sorely lacking which isn't really that hard to code, sometimes in even less than an hour This is your chance to fire suggestions for small features/tweaks at me... so, let's go! This week all planned features will be implemented, so there some time left for some new stuff...


PS: Regarding OOTP 7 : The past several months there was really not much need for community input on my side, as I hammered the basics into the game. Once the game engine is completely finished, you guys (and I fully understand that the community are the reason #1 for the success of OOTP) come into play and I'll ask you tons of stuff. For example how you would like scouting to work, how player/manager interaction should look like, what are the most important media aspects in baseball and so on... I for myself can never have as many ideas and knowledge as you guys combined have. And I won't be stupid and ignore this fact "

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...ad.php?t=99415

so go post there in this OOTP thread what features you want to be added to ootp 6.5

Last edited by jbmagic : 05-31-2005 at 01:20 PM.
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Old 06-03-2005, 01:08 PM   #75
jbmagic
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Markus posted a new Thread at OOTP called " Some Good News for 6.5

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...ad.php?t=99633
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Old 06-03-2005, 01:58 PM   #76
MizzouRah
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Oh how I want to get back into ootp with the impending release of this expansion patch.


Todd
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Old 06-03-2005, 02:02 PM   #77
jbmagic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MizzouRah
Oh how I want to get back into ootp with the impending release of this expansion patch.


Todd

same here.. is it mid june yet
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Old 06-03-2005, 03:58 PM   #78
Swaggs
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This might have slipped by some of you guys, but sounds nice:

Electrovik
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Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Québec
Posts: 28

Player popularity
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This new feature seems nice but I wonder how it's going to be "allocated" to player when converting season from 6.12 to 6.5?

Will it be completely random or will it be based on the player current statistics?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Markus Heinsohn
Developer OOTP
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: London, Islington
Posts: 2,557
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Popularity is calculated using lots of factors, for example current performance, past performance, ratings, character ratings, the time a player has played for the same team etc. It is calculated each day, so it's not editable....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Old 06-03-2005, 05:25 PM   #79
korme
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thats tight
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Old 06-03-2005, 07:06 PM   #80
Eaglesfan27
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This thread is breaking down my resistance some. I just hope these features are actually implemented...
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Old 06-03-2005, 09:26 PM   #81
gstelmack
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So the current OOTP page on the OOTPDevelopments site has an "Ads by Google" section. Right now it's got a link to Baseball Mogul auctions on Ebay...
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Old 06-03-2005, 09:48 PM   #82
General Mike
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gstelmack
So the current OOTP page on the OOTPDevelopments site has an "Ads by Google" section. Right now it's got a link to Baseball Mogul auctions on Ebay...

smooth.
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Old 06-04-2005, 12:44 PM   #83
MizzouRah
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From Markus:

Quote:
OK folks, all planned features, except for some new basic plays in the game engine, have been implemented. Now it's time to test/tweak the AI!

Here is a list of things that got added and were not reported in the announcements:
- League & Team injury Reports
- BABIP & WHIP categories on pitching leader boards
- Career minor league homeruns allowed now tracked
- Career BABIP & WHIP stats tracked and displayed
- BABIP on league pitching report
- Tweaked contract length demands by average players

Added today:
- Added team focus and team ages report to financial report
- Split up transaction news into major transactions (only transactions tnat involved the active roster) and all transactions, for both team and league news. (That was a lot of work, but makes the transaction reports a lot better to read)

I've been wanting the Split up transaction news for quite some time. I hate opening that thing up and having to wait while it sorts ALL transactions.

Last edited by MizzouRah : 06-04-2005 at 12:45 PM.
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Old 06-04-2005, 01:12 PM   #84
markprior22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MizzouRah
From Markus:


I've been wanting the Split up transaction news for quite some time. I hate opening that thing up and having to wait while it sorts ALL transactions.

Same here...that's very good news.
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Old 06-04-2005, 02:42 PM   #85
jbmagic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MizzouRah
From Markus:


I've been wanting the Split up transaction news for quite some time. I hate opening that thing up and having to wait while it sorts ALL transactions.


excellent news

now we dont have to see all those silly waivers in the minors on the transaction page.


i hope he improves the AI alot so we dont see no more wierd waivers and trades.

i cant wait for mid June

Last edited by jbmagic : 06-04-2005 at 02:42 PM.
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Old 06-04-2005, 11:53 PM   #86
21C
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MizzouRah
I've been wanting the Split up transaction news for quite some time. I hate opening that thing up and having to wait while it sorts ALL transactions.
I made a utility that separated the transactions into different categories.
http://web.aanet.com.au/21C/pafiledb...tion=file&id=7

It separates the league transactions from ltrans.txt into separate files:
- waivers.txt
- trades.txt
- releases.txt
- signings.txt
- trading-block.txt
- Rule5.txt

I have a couple of other ones here.

The best one I made was the Player History Sorter. It fixes the output to look like this:
All Star
Was selected to the 2004 Allstar game...
Was selected to the 2005 Allstar game...
Was selected to the 2006 Allstar game...
Was selected to the 2007 Allstar game...
Was selected to the 2008 Allstar game...
Awards
Won Batter of the Month award on 5/1/2004, hitting .330 with 10 HR, 29 RBI...
Won Batter of the Month award on 7/1/2004, hitting .309 with 10 HR, 32 RBI...
Won Player of the Week award on 7/12/2004, hitting .435 with 7 HR, 14 RBI...
Won World Series with New York (A) in 2004...
Won MVP in 2004, hitting .321 with 59 HR, 174 RBI...
Won Player of the Week award on 4/12/2006, hitting .481 with 3 HR, 11 RBI...
Won Batter of the Month award on 5/1/2006, hitting .368 with 6 HR, 24 RBI...
Won Player of the Week award on 5/10/2007, hitting .480 with 3 HR, 9 RBI...
Won Player of the Week award on 7/26/2007, hitting .483 with 3 HR, 11 RBI...
Won Player of the Week award on 5/3/2008, hitting .440 with 5 HR, 8 RBI...
Won Player of the Week award on 5/17/2008, hitting .360 with 5 HR, 11 RBI...
Won Player of the Week award on 8/2/2008, hitting .474 with 4 HR, 9 RBI...
Achievements
Drove in 7 runs against Chicago (A) on 4/8/2004...
Drove in 6 runs against Toronto on 8/10/2005...
Drove in 7 runs against Boston on 4/7/2006...
Drove in 7 runs against Kansas City on 7/11/2006...
Drove in 9 runs against Toronto on 9/12/2006...
Hit 3 homeruns against Florida, driving in 7 runs on 7/4/2007...
Had 5 hits with 3 RBI against Baltimore on 7/22/2007...
Drove in 6 runs against Kansas City on 5/12/2008...
Hit 3 homeruns against Tampa Bay, driving in 6 runs on 7/27/2008...
Milestones
Had 2000th career hit on 7/27/2006, off Sean Burnett (BOS)...
Had 2000th career hit on 7/27/2006, off Sean Burnett (BOS)...
Had 500th career homerun on 5/26/2007, off John Lackey (ANA)...
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Old 06-05-2005, 12:06 AM   #87
MizzouRah
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 21C
I made a utility that separated the transactions into different categories.
http://web.aanet.com.au/21C/pafiledb...tion=file&id=7

It separates the league transactions from ltrans.txt into separate files:
- waivers.txt
- trades.txt
- releases.txt
- signings.txt
- trading-block.txt
- Rule5.txt

I have a couple of other ones here.

The best one I made was the Player History Sorter. It fixes the output to look like this:
All Star
Was selected to the 2004 Allstar game...
Was selected to the 2005 Allstar game...
Was selected to the 2006 Allstar game...
Was selected to the 2007 Allstar game...
Was selected to the 2008 Allstar game...
Awards
Won Batter of the Month award on 5/1/2004, hitting .330 with 10 HR, 29 RBI...
Won Batter of the Month award on 7/1/2004, hitting .309 with 10 HR, 32 RBI...
Won Player of the Week award on 7/12/2004, hitting .435 with 7 HR, 14 RBI...
Won World Series with New York (A) in 2004...
Won MVP in 2004, hitting .321 with 59 HR, 174 RBI...
Won Player of the Week award on 4/12/2006, hitting .481 with 3 HR, 11 RBI...
Won Batter of the Month award on 5/1/2006, hitting .368 with 6 HR, 24 RBI...
Won Player of the Week award on 5/10/2007, hitting .480 with 3 HR, 9 RBI...
Won Player of the Week award on 7/26/2007, hitting .483 with 3 HR, 11 RBI...
Won Player of the Week award on 5/3/2008, hitting .440 with 5 HR, 8 RBI...
Won Player of the Week award on 5/17/2008, hitting .360 with 5 HR, 11 RBI...
Won Player of the Week award on 8/2/2008, hitting .474 with 4 HR, 9 RBI...
Achievements
Drove in 7 runs against Chicago (A) on 4/8/2004...
Drove in 6 runs against Toronto on 8/10/2005...
Drove in 7 runs against Boston on 4/7/2006...
Drove in 7 runs against Kansas City on 7/11/2006...
Drove in 9 runs against Toronto on 9/12/2006...
Hit 3 homeruns against Florida, driving in 7 runs on 7/4/2007...
Had 5 hits with 3 RBI against Baltimore on 7/22/2007...
Drove in 6 runs against Kansas City on 5/12/2008...
Hit 3 homeruns against Tampa Bay, driving in 6 runs on 7/27/2008...
Milestones
Had 2000th career hit on 7/27/2006, off Sean Burnett (BOS)...
Had 2000th career hit on 7/27/2006, off Sean Burnett (BOS)...
Had 500th career homerun on 5/26/2007, off John Lackey (ANA)...

WOW! Very nice... you need to email Markus and see if he can incorporate your utility into 6.5

Thanks.. I'm d/l it now.
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Old 06-05-2005, 12:45 AM   #88
21C
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I don't think it could be easily incorporated into the game. At the moment, if a player does something notable then it gets added to a text file ( e.g. p1234.txt ) by appending it to the end - there's no easy way of adding it halfway down. My utility parses each text file and spits out a new version. The only way I could see this happening in-game is if each player had a separate text file for each type ( like p1234-AS.txt, p1234-AW.txt ). The game reads these text files when compiling the html files for each player.

I expect that Markus should improve on this format/structure for OOTP7 - if not, then I'll make a utility for it.

Actually it's funny that I suggested something like this about a year ago here and ended up thinking that I should just do it myself.
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Old 06-05-2005, 10:38 AM   #89
MizzouRah
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 21C
I don't think it could be easily incorporated into the game. At the moment, if a player does something notable then it gets added to a text file ( e.g. p1234.txt ) by appending it to the end - there's no easy way of adding it halfway down. My utility parses each text file and spits out a new version. The only way I could see this happening in-game is if each player had a separate text file for each type ( like p1234-AS.txt, p1234-AW.txt ). The game reads these text files when compiling the html files for each player.

I expect that Markus should improve on this format/structure for OOTP7 - if not, then I'll make a utility for it.

Actually it's funny that I suggested something like this about a year ago here and ended up thinking that I should just do it myself.

It will definitly help when writing up a dynasty!

Thanks again,

Todd
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Old 06-05-2005, 07:52 PM   #90
Ragone
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Well, i've been trying to get my liscense info back for 6.0 for about 2 weeks now.. but apparently eliscense refuses to email me back.. ah well no 15 bucks from me i guess
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Old 06-08-2005, 11:55 AM   #91
jbmagic
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Markus just announce the *** The OOTP 6.5 Final Features List ***

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...d.php?t=100062

Quote:
*** The OOTP 6.5 Final Features List ***
Alright, the game is now complete, now we concentrate solely on testing. Here is the final feature list:

- New player evaluation algorythms, resulting in more realistic computer AI throughout the game.
- Smarter computer roster handling AI, resulting in less usage of the waiver wire
- Added team focus setting, teams may be in three 'moods'; Win Now!, Neutral and Rebuilding. This influences trade AI and free agent signing AI
- Improved player development algorythms, resulting in less predictable career curves
- Added the option to prevent computer teams to adjust their own strategy setting (interesting for historical leagues)
- Visiting the mound - Instead of the pitcher suddenly turning red when he tires, you may now visit the mound once an inning to ask for the pitchers condition and buying time for warming up pitchers
- Improved pinch-hitting and pitcher change AI
- Option to reduce foul balls
- More plays added, like dropped foul balls for an error, players colliding etc.
- Improved Box-Scores
- Ability to base player ratings on peak seasons
- Fielding percentage ratings are now based on career fielding stats
- Adding ability to set lineups for following 7 days, also showing the projected opposing starting pitcher
- Draft picks may now be traded (online league only feature)
- Added national and team popularity rating for players, influencing fan interest if players get signed/traded/not resigned
- Milestone Watch page, like players approaching 3000 career hits
- Projected Stats page
- Players now have projected stats listed in their player stats page
- Added projected stats and milestone watch reports to league website
- Relievers may win Cy Young award in rare cases
- MVP selecting algorythm redesigned
- Japanese and defected Cuban players entering the league before free-agency
- In-Season retirements
- Players now sometimes come out of retirement
- Added off-season and spring training injuries
- New skin
- Fictional data update
- League & Team injury Reports
- BABIP & WHIP categories on pitching leader boards
- Career minor league homeruns allowed now tracked
- Career BABIP & WHIP stats tracked and displayed
- BABIP on league pitching report
- Tweaked contract length demands by average players
- Added team focus and team ages report to financial report
- Split up transaction news into major transactions and all transactions, for both team and league news
- Fixed scoring on throwing errors from the outfield
- Increased influence of hitter pull rating in game engine
- Added Shop player around function
- Player awards are now listed in the team history section as well
- The player fatigue system has been reworked
- Scheduled double-headers now work properly in terms of fatigue and pitcher selection
- The in-game screen now displays runners thrown out percentage instead of the passed ball rating of the catcher
- OOTP 6.12 exports work in OOTP 6.5!
- Added a 'toggle stats' button to the lineup screens which toggles between overall and L/R split stats
- Added a 'clear rookie records' button to the records screen
- The in-game substitution screen now shows the game situation (inning, score) and if a player in the lineup is tired
- The general page of the player view now shows talent ratings in talent-only leagues

If somebody still says this is not worth $9.95, I'm gonna ban him personally

Cheers,
Markus
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Old 06-08-2005, 12:12 PM   #92
jbmagic
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Todd

your favorite made it

Added Shop player around function: When you are in a player viewer, there is a new button in the top right corner, 'shop player'.
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Old 06-08-2005, 12:13 PM   #93
maximus
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Nice list. Well worth $10 imo.
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Old 06-08-2005, 12:18 PM   #94
jbmagic
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Maximus i agree

i cant wait for mid June to come

i really hope the AI is very smart in making decisions.
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Old 06-08-2005, 01:13 PM   #95
MizzouRah
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbmagic
Todd

your favorite made it

Added Shop player around function: When you are in a player viewer, there is a new button in the top right corner, 'shop player'.

After reading all of these additions over at ootp, I missed this one!!! YESSSS!!!!

$10? I'd pay double.


Todd
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Old 06-08-2005, 03:12 PM   #96
Swaggs
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Join Date: Oct 2000
Quote:
Originally Posted by MizzouRah
After reading all of these additions over at ootp, I missed this one!!! YESSSS!!!!

$10? I'd pay double.


Todd

You can just pick up the tab for mine.
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Old 06-08-2005, 03:25 PM   #97
MizzouRah
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swaggs
You can just pick up the tab for mine.

Smarty...


Todd
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Old 06-08-2005, 03:52 PM   #98
jbmagic
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skydog

how the beta testing going do far? how you liking ootp 6.5 so far?
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Old 06-13-2005, 04:07 PM   #99
MrBug708
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Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Whittier
Since player popularity has been added, while players still sign with the highest bidder and not just the best fit?
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