FOOL-X 2014 Offseason Thread

[Montreal_GM]

Originally Posted by TeachEnEspanol

Can I be dumb and ask: What the heck IS a supplemental pick and how do you get one?

Type A/B free agents provide supplemental picks when signed by another team.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by TeachEnEspanol

Thank you both! That makes more sense to me. But what we have here seems to be too little talent trickling down after that supplemental round so after the first pick and unless you have a supplemental pick, the rest of the draft is relatively pointless (whereas in the past I've been able to start picks 1-3 pretty consistently).

Yup. I think that's because of what I was pointing out above, my theory that the AI is generating less talent on a year to year basis because it sees left over unsigned talent and only thinks it needs to add talent to a certain level (which it is probably told to do by our league settings to maintain talent level in the league).

The talent stays the same--but the pick numbers increase. So the talent value of a particularly pick is falling each season that goes by. The talent should be increasing each year, with the additioanl talent being the unsigned players re-inserted into the draft.

Of course, even if the AI was doing that, we are still heading to Defcon 1 with respect to the length of the draft. As long as we have optional draft pick signings, the number of picks will increase with unsigned players. The first round will still relatively static because those players are too talented to not eventually be signed. But the supplemental draft will grow and grow, because the round is being added to by both "re-picks" and by our annual feree agent compensation. And the 2nd thu 5th picks will just grow exponentially ebcause there is no talent there, so no one bothers to sign them.

[TeachEnEspanol]

Originally Posted by Montreal_GM

Type A/B free agents provide supplemental picks when signed by another team.

Ohhhhh. So if you sign some badass FA then the team he came from gets a pick?

[TeachEnEspanol]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Of course, even if the AI was doing that, we are still heading to Defcon 1 with respect to the length of the draft.

Soooo Dramatic

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by TeachEnEspanol

Ohhhhh. So if you sign some badass FA then the team he came from gets a pick?

Yup.

Type A's, you give up your first round pick and the team losing their FA also gets a supplemental pick. The top half of the first round is protected--those teams don't lose their first round pick, but their second round pick.

Type B's, it's just a supplemental pick to the team losing the FA, you don't lose a pick.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by TeachEnEspanol

Soooo Dramatic

Well, normally, I'm so plain and boring, I figured I would change up for kick's sake.

[TeachEnEspanol]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Well, normally, I'm so plain and boring, I figured I would change up for kick's sake.

I wasn't gonna say anything but you have been losing your edge.

[TeachEnEspanol]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Yup.

Type A's, you give up your first round pick and the team losing their FA also gets a supplemental pick. The top half of the first round is protected--those teams don't lose their first round pick, but their second round pick.

Type B's, it's just a supplemental pick to the team losing the FA, you don't lose a pick.

This makes SO much more sense now. Thanks for taking the time to spell it out for me!!!

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by TeachEnEspanol

I wasn't gonna say anything but you have been losing your edge.

I'm like Steinbrenner, I think. I started off all edgy and aggressive, but gradually went corporate and eventually settled into lovable and fluffy and sheep-like.

Well, okay, maybe not that lovable.

[TeachEnEspanol]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I'm like Steinbrenner, I think. I started off all edgy and aggressive, but gradually went corporate and eventually settled into lovable and fluffy and sheep-like.

Well, okay, maybe not that lovable.

Well let it not be said that you're not self reflective. Best description of the "phases of Chief" EVER!

P.S. I think you're lovable!!

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by TeachEnEspanol

Well let it not be said that you're not self reflective. Best description of the "phases of Chief" EVER!

P.S. I think you're lovable!!

Heh heh... and thanks!

[hyde4us11]

If I remember correctly there was 5 supplemental picks not signed last season.

[hyde4us11]

I would rather talent randomness be put in as a minimal thing. I like seeing late round gems pop up. Fact is players will get worse but in the end it has evened out as a whole. This is my experience in solo leagues and such.

EDIT: One other thing we could do is go on a honor system again and everyone has to make a serious attempt to sign 2nd round and lower picks. People should have a right to pass on the big dollar guys but 2nd round and lower must be offered what they are asking for at the least.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by hyde4us11

I would rather talent randomness be put in as a minimal thing. I like seeing late round gems pop up. Fact is players will get worse but in the end it has evened out as a whole. This is my experience in solo leagues and such.

I see the two matters as separate issues with only some minor connection, so my growing hesitance about us having draft pick signings is wholely separate from the talent randomness discussion.

I'm not against some talent randomness, although I would still like it to be limited. As Kevin pointed out, the bad teams should be getting the stars in the draft. I think what I didn't like in OOTP in the past with talent randomness was that pretty much every player goes through alterations, and the best players can only go down (for the most part), so if you have a great draftee, you're virtually certain to have him knocked down a bit by the time he hit the big leagues. I would rather avoid that.

Plus, I am having enough trouble developing players now, much less adding in random talent hits into the mix.

[spleen1015]

I'm against the idea of more talent randomness at this point. I think things are a big enough challenge as it is. I want the other humans to be the challenge, not an RNG.

[Tasan]

Trying to get back into the swing of things here.

I agree that the draft picks are getting out of hand. I've been a contributor to it too. With the way things are getting, we should just probably scrap the whole signing business before our first round is 25 picks, the supplimentals go on for 4 rounds, and everyone has 20 5th round picks.

Also, I'd like to say that I'm against talent randomness in a league like this. A young guy could fall off the cliff during the season and completely screw you over. I've had this happen to me before due to a bug, its not fun at all. There are enough risks in starting young players to not have to worry about whether the talent is going to just randomly disappear.

[muns]

Sorry guys im busy with work so ill post later on tonight, but I agree with most of the comments in here.

We need to really figure out where the draft pick signing problem starts and where the FA compensation problems start.

Im in the camp that its 50-50 and that both are problems.

Chief has some very valid points in that the AI seems to be screwy with how the supplemental picks get assigned and then I found this gem with my own team.

I had 3 guys that were free agents this past off season. One wasnt a type A or B, and the other 2 were both A's.

I signed one of them back, and lost the other, but I still got 2 supplemental first round picks? Where did the second supplemental pick come from? Myself? Im not even sure if its a bug or what the rule is, but im really not sure why I got 2 picks? So it is just because a guy is a Type A or B FA, no matter who signs them you get a pick back?

To me that makes no sense at all, and im honestly pretty confused at the moment.

If all this is not working the way its supposed to work, that is adding to the problem big time, but like i said im not exactly what the rule is supposed to be, so i may be blowing some hot air.

[JTSMOOTH]

I'd love to see some talent randomness put in, but it appears you and I are in the minority Dan. Having a few late round surprises would certainly make the draft more interesting. Not only that, but at least half the comp picks awarded each year are almost worthless since there is no hope of any development.

Hopefully in the next patch Markus will fix the comp picks for not signing your picks being awarded year after year, its supposed to only be a one time award and if you fail to sign the comp pick the following year your SOL.

The days of the guys completely dropping off a cliff ended a few versions ago, especially for the already established players( at least that has been my experience playing in leagues with 100 randomness).

Originally Posted by hyde4us11

I would rather talent randomness be put in as a minimal thing. I like seeing late round gems pop up. Fact is players will get worse but in the end it has evened out as a whole. This is my experience in solo leagues and such.

EDIT: One other thing we could do is go on a honor system again and everyone has to make a serious attempt to sign 2nd round and lower picks. People should have a right to pass on the big dollar guys but 2nd round and lower must be offered what they are asking for at the least.

[hyde4us11]

You probably didn't sign one of the sup picks last year. I do know one thing in this whole thing though, we can't scrap compensation. This league has been a comp league from day one. That might be a killer for me. I am not sure thats what any of you are saying but I just wanted to say I am for change but that part I want to stay.

[Chief Rum]

Yeah, we have been doing the compensation thing since the start, with OOTPX, and while the AI's methodology for setting the supplemental order is highly questionable, we have generally made do. By and large, I figure that all evens out, although it would be nice for us to have some idea as to why the AI does what it does (pretty sure the order free agents sign in is one of the criteria, like the AI rewards the compensation pick and then moves on adding pick after pick, without regard to whether the new pick should be placed ahead of the old pick).

I don't see too many issues with compensation (beyond the above), just draft pick signing.

[muns]

Originally Posted by hyde4us11

You probably didn't sign one of the sup picks last year. I do know one thing in this whole thing though, we can't scrap compensation. This league has been a comp league from day one. That might be a killer for me. I am not sure thats what any of you are saying but I just wanted to say I am for change but that part I want to stay.

This was the first year I haven't been in last place or close to it.

I have signed every single 1-2 draft choice ive had so far.

im not saying we need to scrap everything or anything, but i do want to find out why or what is happening if something is happening at all.

Im not trying to jump to conclusions or add some gas to the fire, so im just waiting to see if anyone has an answer to my FA issue

[spleen1015]

I'm not looking to get rid og FA compensation. I just don't like the draftee signing stuff and what it has done.

[muns]

Originally Posted by Alan T

***ATTENTION***

There is a new patch of OOTP11 out. Per our league rules, we don't upgrade until the end of the season, but we usually upgrade pretty soon after. That means we'll upgrade to the newest patch after the playoffs on Friday.

For anyone in multiple online leagues and need information on how to run two different versions of OOTP11 (1 for each league), please let me know and I can help you out there so you don't hurt yourself for other leagues.


OOTP 11 Update #2 Released + All-Star Promotion, Save $10! - Front Office Football Central

BTW thanks for posting this update Alan!!

I would have been the one to update and screw it all up

[muns]

Montreal_GM I don't want talent randomness changed. The good teams aren't supposed to get star players in the draft, the bad teams are.

I just like the discussions we all have around here, so im going to continue this, even though I really dont care what we do. Ill do whatever the majority wants.

This statement while it has the intentions to be true, isnt exactly whats happening in the draft, and Ive had 3 overall first picks now in what 5 years and still only have the 5th best overall farm system rated by the game. Havanna who has won back to back has a better farm system than i do, game rated Now granted Chief can draft so it wouldnt surprise me if he is just that good, but had to throw it out there

While Ive had the first overall pick my drafts havent at all been really good, due to the supplemental first round, and the issues that have already been discussed.

Ill end up with a pick in the first round as the worst team in the league, and yet when my 1st pick of the second round comes along, it will end up being late 3rd round to 4th round talent.......

So the good teams who loose 3-5 guys in FA get those picks ahead of me, and wash rinse and repeat and those good teams are getting better drafts than the lower teams.....

[spot]

Originally Posted by muns

Sorry guys im busy with work so ill post later on tonight, but I agree with most of the comments in here.

We need to really figure out where the draft pick signing problem starts and where the FA compensation problems start.

Im in the camp that its 50-50 and that both are problems.

Chief has some very valid points in that the AI seems to be screwy with how the supplemental picks get assigned and then I found this gem with my own team.

I had 3 guys that were free agents this past off season. One wasnt a type A or B, and the other 2 were both A's.

I signed one of them back, and lost the other, but I still got 2 supplemental first round picks? Where did the second supplemental pick come from? Myself? Im not even sure if its a bug or what the rule is, but im really not sure why I got 2 picks? So it is just because a guy is a Type A or B FA, no matter who signs them you get a pick back?

To me that makes no sense at all, and im honestly pretty confused at the moment.

If all this is not working the way its supposed to work, that is adding to the problem big time, but like i said im not exactly what the rule is supposed to be, so i may be blowing some hot air.

Did you have any supplemental picks last year that you didn't sign? That would be where the second one came from.

[muns]

On the Other end of the spectrum to be fair, I hammered the FA market this year.

I signed a total of 7 type A free agents,

So a lot of teams got screwed out of their Type A supplemental pick because I could only give out one......

[muns]

Originally Posted by spot

Did you have any supplemental picks last year that you didn't sign? That would be where the second one came from.

Nope, ive signed every first or second round draft pick ive ever had.

[TeachEnEspanol]

Is it when you sign a Type A free agent that you lose a draft pick? And how do you know which round it will be from?

[muns]

Originally Posted by TeachEnEspanol

Is it when you sign a Type A free agent that you lose a draft pick? And how do you know which round it will be from?

If im correct, A is a first round and B is a second round

[TeachEnEspanol]

Originally Posted by muns

If im correct, A is a first round and B is a second round

That makes sense! Thanks.

[muns]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I haven't checked for certain, but I am pretty sure that you just get your pick back again. So don't sign a fourth rounder, you'll get a second fourth rounder the next year. I am still uncertain how the AI determines where these "re-picks" are palced in the round order, though. I think in MLB, which I presume this is intended to model, the re-pick is either the same pick or one pick behind (so, if you fail to sign the 2nd pick of the 4th round in 2014, you get the 2nd or 3rd pick of the 4th round in 2015; hope that makes sense).

Agree completely on your first paragraph. I know now I didn't fully understand the implications.

lol im with you guys, i still dont understand it all

From what I have observed with my team. When I havent signed a 4th or 5th rounder, I get that pick in the next years draft in the same spot I would have drafted a year earlier. So if a team finished last this past season I would still be picking a head of them in that round because of my last place finish from the year before.

Im not 100% on that, but when I looked at it when those drafts where going on thats the only thing I could come up with.

[TeachEnEspanol]

Originally Posted by muns

lol im with you guys, i still dont understand it all

From what I have observed with my team. When I havent signed a 4th or 5th rounder, I get that pick in the next years draft in the same spot I would have drafted a year earlier. So if a team finished last this past season I would still be picking a head of them in that round because of my last place finish from the year before.

Im not 100% on that, but when I looked at it when those drafts where going on thats the only thing I could come up with.

That's some pretty good paying attention! I'm glad we're all in the same confused boat.

[muns]

Originally Posted by TeachEnEspanol

That makes sense! Thanks.

I think im wrong though teach after re reading the thread.

Chief said Type B's, it's just a supplemental pick to the team losing the FA, you don't lose a pick.

So it seems i was wrong there too and have no idea

[TeachEnEspanol]

Originally Posted by muns

I think im wrong though teach after re reading the thread.




So it seems i was wrong there too and have no idea

Oh thanks. Apparently I should have read more carefully too. Though did Chief seem to know what he was talking about or is he just speculating like the rest of us?

[muns]

Originally Posted by TeachEnEspanol

Oh thanks. Apparently I should have read more carefully too. Though did Chief seem to know what he was talking about or is he just speculating like the rest of us?

I dont know.

I would however like to thank Alan in advance if he has to come in and straighten me out.

I had fun with my posts though

[muns]

Originally Posted by JTSMOOTH

Hopefully in the next patch Markus will fix the comp picks for not signing your picks being awarded year after year, its supposed to only be a one time award and if you fail to sign the comp pick the following year your SOL.

Thanks for sharing this tid bit

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by TeachEnEspanol

Oh thanks. Apparently I should have read more carefully too. Though did Chief seem to know what he was talking about or is he just speculating like the rest of us?

Heh... I am pretty good at sounding like I know exactly what I am talking about when I don't actually know crap.

That said, this was one of the few instances where I know I'm right.

Type A's, the FA's former team receives the signing team's first round pick (or second round pick, if the first round is a top half of the first round pick, which are protected) AND a supplemental draft pick.

Type B's just receive the supplemental pick.

A little more info to help keep track of things...

If, as muns did, a team signs several Type As, the next highest available of that signing team's original picks goes to the next team, and then to the next team, and so forth. By original, I mean the picks that team is slotted purely based on its finish in the league standings--"re-picks" and supplementals are also protected, just like the top half of the first round.

Also, every Type A gives the FA's former team a supplemental draft pick, regardless of how many Type As are signed. So, muns, if you really signed 7 Type A's, you all by your lonesome added 7 supplemental draft picks to our draft today.

So let's say muns signs a Type A FA from me, Tasan and Teach, and let's say he has a top half first round pick (so it's protected).

By signing a Type A from each of us, muns owes each of us a pick from his draft (all of which, in a vacuum without protections would be first rounders) AND we each receive a supplemental pick.

Now, muns doesn't have three original first rounders to lose (with a protected pick, he actually doesn't have even one), so the game gives his next best original draft picks to me, Tasan and Teach. So I get his 2nd round pick, Tasan gets his 3rd round pick and Teach gets a 2-3-7 MR in the 4th round (). And we all get the supp picks (which actually end up being the better picks received in this case).

One of the issues I have with how OOTP handles this is that the logic for determining who's compensation takes precedence is unclear and not really based on anything so much as I can tell. My best guess is it is the order in which they sign, which is a preposterous design decision.

In real life basbeall, which this is supposed to model, all free agents are ranked from best to worst, and this list is used to determine who gets first shot at the compensation, both with the other team's picks and in the suppelmental draft order.

A great real life example is what happened last year with the Yankees during their free agent bonanza. The Yankees signed Sabathia, Teixeira and Burnett (at least), all Type A FAs. The order of free agents (I think the order is done by the Elias Sports Bureau, not sure) was Teix, CC and then Burnett.

Because of this, the former employer of Teixeira (my Angels) got first dibs on the Yanks' draft picks. The Yankees, of course, did not pick in the top half of the first round, since they were one of the better non-playoff teams in 2008, so their first rounder was not protected. The Angels received their first rounder and a supplemental pick. Sabathia was second in order, so the Brewers received the Yanks' second round pick and a supplemental pick. The poor Jays lost their #2 SP in Burnett and only got a third round pick to go with their supplemental pick. And in the supplemental pick order, the Angels' pick was also better than the Brewers, which was better than the Jays. The free agent priority list order also determines the supplemental draft pick order.

Same draft, the Yanks' also had an additional first rounder, like 30th overall or something, because they did not sign their first rounder from 2007. This is a "re-pick", same stuff we have. This is protected, like I was saying it is in our draft, so the Yanks did not lose that pick.

Hope that makes some sense. And shows how the way OOTP handles determining FA priority order is really batty, using order in which they signed (my guess) over actual quality of free agent.

[TeachEnEspanol]

Ugh, now I see my problem. Reading carefully is hard. It takes a lot of concentration, effort, and focus to follow that entire thing!!! Even still, I think that I'm starting to understand some of the strategy that you could employ in order to beef up your team if you were in a rebuild. BUT I don't know if anyone has the kind of time and effort (except Tasan) to actually commit to making sure they don't sign Type A or B prospects in preparation for the draft and blah blah blah (all the other crap you have to pay attention in order to work the system to your advantage.)

In summary, y'all are putting a cramp in my 5-minute export philosophy.

[TeachEnEspanol]

Oh, and thanks Chief. I actually did need all of that written out for me step-by-step and I'll betcha some others of us needed it too!

[Alan T]

hey guys, good conversation today. I'll have to catch up on it some later. I think it is clear though that we need to re-vote after this upcoming season to see how we want to handle this as people's opinions have changed somewhat from what I can read. So lets keep discussing this as well as we have and I'll put up a vote this weekend.

[muns]

Originally Posted by TeachEnEspanol

Oh, and thanks Chief. I actually did need all of that written out for me step-by-step and I'll betcha some others of us needed it too!

So Chief if im picking up what your saying, sorry im a lil slow on the take here,
Is that If I loose 2 type A free agents plus 1 type B free agents I could potentially land 5 supplemental first round picks?

I had no idea 2 picks were given if thats the case. Its real easy to see the back up now, especially with people not siging draft picks early on.

[muns]

Just for the record Plantana who has the worst record in the league this year got the first overall pick in the draft, and then didnt pick again in the draft until..... wait for it........ just wait......

72 picks later

[TeachEnEspanol]

Originally Posted by muns

So Chief if im picking up what your saying, sorry im a lil slow on the take here,
Is that If I loose 2 type A free agents plus 1 type B free agents I could potentially land 5 supplemental first round picks?

I had no idea 2 picks were given if thats the case. Its real easy to see the back up now, especially with people not siging draft picks early on.

Totally. I think just learning the process is explaining the potential downfall of the newest system. And yeah, I think you're right about the hypothetical situation you posed to Chief...unless I'm just understanding it wrong too. Maybe I should let him answer.

[TeachEnEspanol]

Originally Posted by muns

Just for the record Plantana who has the worst record in the league this year got the first overall pick in the draft, and then didnt pick until 72 picks later......

That's what I'm saying!!! (sometimes only in my head) I've had situations where I lose almost all of my picks but I have had no idea why so I just sit here quietly and assume it's my fault (which I guess it is for signing good players and such).

[muns]

Originally Posted by TeachEnEspanol

That's what I'm saying!!! (sometimes only in my head) I've had situations where I lose almost all of my picks but I have had no idea why so I just sit here quietly and assume it's my fault (which I guess it is for signing good players and such).

ha ha ya its all in good fun

especially since you like to turn it around in one season after a bad one!!!

[TeachEnEspanol]

Originally Posted by muns

ha ha ya its all in fun

especially since you like to turn it around in one season after a bad one!!!

You've been talking to Dan too much. You people have way too high of expectations for me!

But when I do turn it around, it's because I can't lay off the free agent pool...

[MattG]

Should we update to the new patch?

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by MattG

Should we update to the new patch?

Not until this weekend

Originally Posted by Alan T

***ATTENTION***

There is a new patch of OOTP11 out. Per our league rules, we don't upgrade until the end of the season, but we usually upgrade pretty soon after. That means we'll upgrade to the newest patch after the playoffs on Friday.

For anyone in multiple online leagues and need information on how to run two different versions of OOTP11 (1 for each league), please let me know and I can help you out there so you don't hurt yourself for other leagues.


OOTP 11 Update #2 Released + All-Star Promotion, Save $10! - Front Office Football Central

[JTSMOOTH]

Just sort of thinking aloud here, but I wonder if the constant awarding of "comp re-picks" for failing to sign your draft picks from the previous year was ever logged as a bug?

I can't imagine this situation arises much in any other leagues outside of this one, since the all the picks have a chance to pan out and teams would have more interest in signing them.

Teams are only supposed to be awarded one comp pick for failing to sign a player from the previous year and if they fail to sign that comp pick, they lose out.

Anyways like I said just thinking aloud and somewhat curious if anyone had seen anything posted on the boards about this bug...

[MattG]

Thanks Alan...sorry for not reading better.

I am not making the playoffs, so I submitted then went ahead and patched!