Crusader Kings 3 - CK3, CKIII

[Neon_Chaos]

IT'S OUT!!!!

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

Quill18 playing CK3 singleplayer/campaign on Twitch right now. Yogscast playing multiplayer

Sidebar warning: am I alone in finding multi-player games of this type pretty much unwatchable on YouTube (et al)? There's just so much crosstalk that I can't get much, if anything, out of what is going on.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Sidebar warning: am I alone in finding multi-player games of this type pretty much unwatchable on YouTube (et al)? There's just so much crosstalk that I can't get much, if anything, out of what is going on.

Yeah it can be, along with the inevitable questions from the people watching the streams as well as the numerous call-outs to people donating/subscribing to them, but the Yogscast in particular is like an "old shoe" to me that their crosstalk and banter is just part of the experience for me. Plus they have good editors who can keep it at a minimum. The Yogscast doing this playthrough are a group that call themselves "Armchair Admirals" and almost every week have a game like CK3 that they stream while playing.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

IT'S OUT!!!!

Not yet for me.

[GrantDawg]

All it does is crash for me. Yay.

[Edward64]

Now I've got the install button. Here goes ...

EDIT: The install was painless. Got into the play screen, thank god the fonts are easier to read!

Unfortunately have to do some real work now.

[Brian Swartz]

Looking forward to where this thread goes. Depending on the progress, I may consider picking this up sometime next year.

[MrBug708]

Way more role-playing involved right now. My computer doesnt handle it perfect, but my wife told me I could update my laptop if need be. One of the keys is barely working, not ideal. I am enjoying the playthrough with Ireland though

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I did the tutorial. Promptly did some invading of various places in Ireland and pissed off a lot of people.

[Izulde]

I made it to King of Ireland in the tutorial and promptly started getting my ass kicked by Viking invaders and opportunistic jagoffs I hadn't yet brought under my thumb in Ireland.

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by Izulde

I made it to King of Ireland in the tutorial and promptly started getting my ass kicked by Viking invaders and opportunistic jagoffs I hadn't yet brought under my thumb in Ireland.

How did you do it?

One thing I don't know how to do is taking over other territories any way other than war.

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

How did you do it?

One thing I don't know how to do is taking over other territories any way other than war.

Your Bishop/Court Chaplain now is the one who fabricates claims on titles - not your Chancellor. Also, rather than a random chance to fire a claim, there's now a countdown meter that gives you the option for a claim after the countdown finishes.

Go to the Council screen, click on the icon for your Bishop/Priest/whatever that says Fabricate a Claim (or something like that), then click on the county you want to get a claim on.

[spleen1015]

Once you have the claim, what do you do?

I was using my claims as casus belli for wars. Can I use them in other ways?

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by Izulde

Your Bishop/Court Chaplain now is the one who fabricates claims on titles - not your Chancellor. Also, rather than a random chance to fire a claim, there's now a countdown meter that gives you the option for a claim after the countdown finishes.

Go to the Council screen, click on the icon for your Bishop/Priest/whatever that says Fabricate a Claim (or something like that), then click on the county you want to get a claim on.

Ugh, I can’t say I’m a huge fan of that change. Feels like a dumbed down mechanism for the folks who want to blob, but I liked the uncertainty of not knowing whether you would get a claim (and if you didn’t have a great Chancellor, the chance that you’d fail and get negative events)

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

Once you have the claim, what do you do?

I was using my claims as casus belli for wars. Can I use them in other ways?

You then declare war. Unless you gain it through marriage. Same mechanics as CK2

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

Ugh, I can’t say I’m a huge fan of that change. Feels like a dumbed down mechanism for the folks who want to blob, but I liked the uncertainty of not knowing whether you would get a claim (and if you didn’t have a great Chancellor, the chance that you’d fail and get negative events)

First patch, like all paradox games, should have a ton of changes. First DLC will probably also change a lot of items.

[bhlloy]

I’ll bet you that doesn’t change though. PDX are looking to standardize across games (which is why Imperator:Rome was such an awkward clone with a ton of EU4 mechanics) rather than diversify and why would you take something out of the CK2 base code to then add it back in.

This just feels like the way PDX games will handle claim fabrication moving forward.

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

Ugh, I can’t say I’m a huge fan of that change. Feels like a dumbed down mechanism for the folks who want to blob, but I liked the uncertainty of not knowing whether you would get a claim (and if you didn’t have a great Chancellor, the chance that you’d fail and get negative events)

I actually love it. The randomness always felt like a deliberate slowing down with nothing to do because the chances of success were so low.

Nor is it necessarily going to increase blobbing. The AI is *super* aggressive in wars now compared to CK2. Like, holy shit. If it sniffs even the slightest opportunity, it'll go attack you.

[GrantDawg]

I also think it makes more sense for claims to come from the church rather than diplomacy.

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[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by Izulde

I actually love it. The randomness always felt like a deliberate slowing down with nothing to do because the chances of success were so low.

Nor is it necessarily going to increase blobbing. The AI is *super* aggressive in wars now compared to CK2. Like, holy shit. If it sniffs even the slightest opportunity, it'll go attack you.

Each to their own. I haven't actually played it yet as I'm on vacation and my 5 year old mac can't handle it, so I'll reserve a bit of judgement, but for me this just feels like another step in the direction PDX have been taking their games, which is away from games that felt like they were trying to be historically accurate and more towards fun map painting exercises that would attract the mainstream crowd. I mean I can't blame them for it, but that does make their games less attractive to me (and I'm sure they don't give 2 shits about that, seeing as despite saying I was going to hold off due to their business practices I dropped $75 on the royal edition at launch like a dummy)

More aggressive AI and easier claims with a timer to tell you exactly when (not if) you will get it doesn't seem like an argument against blobbing, it just seems like maybe you won't be the one who gets to blob. Personally that still feels to me like it's pandering to people who want to paint the map, but I'll see if I still feel that way when I've played the game a bit. CK2 was already way too easy to get good bloodlines, eliminate negative traits in your heirs and paint the map using claims or marital alliances that the CPU wouldn't take advantage of, I'd really hate to see that be the direction that CK3 is going in already.

[Edward64]

About half-way through the tutorial and enjoying CK3 so far.

Gamers like to optimize their decisions, know the impact of what they do or don't do (e.g. Civ, Stellaris) whereas CK series has so much variability that you don't have that luxury and just have to go with the role playing.

[Drake]

I spend too much time going to war just so my kids will have places to live.

It's 891 and I'm already a millennial parent.

[bhlloy]

So after finally getting home and some time with it, my initial thoughts

- Definitely the AI is much more aggressive. I picked up a duchy in a war only to have the larger regional power who had a claim or a de jure right to one of the counties kick my ass. Nice to see.
- To this point I haven't seen any huge issues with blobbing, as these wars seem to balance themselves out. 50 years into my Wales 1066 playthrough, Ireland is nice and fragmented still (which makes it nice as the only place I can really go from here, so sucks to be them)
- In the 867 start, the Vikings are totally overpowered. I know there was some historical precedent for Viking kingdoms in the UK and the coasts of Europe, but they are just carving through the British isles like butter from what I've seen
- Some of the new mechanics definitely take away some of the cheesiness of CK2 that made it too easy when you knew what you were doing. No more having 2 sons and getting them a bunch of positive traits through being their guardian and making obvious choices. The fact that your kids become your knights has led to quite a few dying in battle as well - seems like infant mortality is still very unrealistic (as well as characters regularly seeming to live to 60 to 70 years old) but at least that new twist means it's slightly harder to keep your heirs alive
- Overall, it's definitely more of a family RPG than the historical simulator that Paradox games used to be, and it needs balancing, but I'm a pretty big fan so far. Once modders get their hands on it and things get tweaked, should be a great game. Definitely the best Paradox game on release date since.... ever?

[lungs]

I was feeling pretty good about myself. Ireland had been united, my vassals all loved me except the one whose wife I was trying to shag. Then small pox hit. I died and my 21 year old son took over. And my levies were pretty much cut in half. Scotland invaded. Lappland (somehow Normandy turned into Lappland?) invaded.

Is there a way to stop everybody from immediately invading you when you die?

[Coffee Warlord]

I really really want the ruler designer.

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by lungs

I was feeling pretty good about myself. Ireland had been united, my vassals all loved me except the one whose wife I was trying to shag. Then small pox hit. I died and my 21 year old son took over. And my levies were pretty much cut in half. Scotland invaded. Lappland (somehow Normandy turned into Lappland?) invaded.

Is there a way to stop everybody from immediately invading you when you die?

Yeah, this is another takeaway. At least until you can (if you can?) change the succession laws, the partition on ruler death is absolutely crippling. I didn't get invaded after my first ruler died, but I did go from 6 holdings to 2, 5k levies to less than 2k and barely was able to fight off a revolt from 2 of my vassals who wanted one of the other kids on the throne. I suspect being friends and allied with the King of England (which was a nice addition btw, being able to make your heirs friends) saved me from an invasion by others. Personally I like this and think it will make for a much more variable game and also protect against blobbing, but it's definitely tough.

Also holy crap the incest. No Paradox I don't want to sleep with my son and daughter. Somebody has been watching too much game of thrones Sounds like they couldn't get a license in AU and NZ for a bit so the release was delayed, I'm sure that's the reason why.

+1 on the ruler designer. Even though that feels like it could be a bit of a cheat with how much more emphasis is put on flawed characters in CK3, I'm definitely waiting for it as well.

[spleen1015]

It is kind of crazy how things play out in this game.

I'm into the 6th generation. Right after I become the King of Ireland, I die. My son who was the Heir died helping me taking over so my grandson gets named King.

Immediately, everyone hates his guts and he's only 8 years old! His own mother is even pissed at him. Some of the Dukes create a faction to get her on the throne. Nothing really comes of that.

Then, when I am 30, trying to take over the last 3 counties, she comes along again with the same Dukes and immediately rebels and takes the throne from me.

Now I'm a Duke again and the bitch appointed me Spymaster.

[Alan T]

Yes the change yo succession laws is perhaps the largest change from a direct impact for the strategy of the game. It single handedly has the biggest effect of keeping this focused more on family role play strategies than eu4 blob strategies.

That said, I feel the byzantines are currently the single most overpowered land due primarily to that reason.

Overall though this game is amazing and as a ck2 player with like 5000 hours while logged in (and who knows how much in offline mode) , I think this is a great sequel while still allowing for plenty of room for future growth.


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[lungs]

I managed to beat off the Scots and the Lapps thanks to a timely alliance with England. In return for England's help, I decided to sit back and twiddle my thumbs when they decided to eat away a chunk of Scotland.... only to be humiliated by the Scots who end up with a piece of Wales. I imagine if I did help England beat Scotland, those bloody brutes would turn their eyes on us next.

Then I worked on getting my vassals to come around to my point of view, which they did. Until they didn't and my cousin lead a rebellion against me which I promptly crushed and revoked the titles of all that rose against me and gave them to my brothers.

The Duke of Ulster is a powerful vassal that stuck with me during the uprising. His heir has a twin brother, which I successfully negotiated a matrilineal marriage to my youngest daughter. Once that was set, I went ahead and murdered the heir, making my daughter's future husband the heir.

I never got too much into CK2 (I'm a big Stellaris and EU4 fan), but this is definitely fun. Not too worried about blobbing though that Duke of Ulster is dragging me over to Scotland for a war at the current point I'm at.

[Drake]

I've gotten so tired of being badgered by alliance-in-laws about my obligation to defend their over-extended territory from attack that I've now fully committed to only marrying my daughters off to hobos and drug addicts.

At least those motherfuckers don't have anything worth defending.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by lungs

...managed to beat off the Scots and the Lapps...

I haven't gotten that trait, yet. Maybe I'm using the wrong lifestyle focus?

[GrantDawg]

I haven't played very much yet. Having a hard time settling on what I want to play. I have started as a earl in England with a 1066 starting date a couple of times. The first time, William won easily. The second time it was Harald of Norway. It seems it is just random based on who Harold fights. If he throws his army at one, the other wins. I just started a game as an observer to see what happens, and I don't like the fact under observer you cant watch battles, you can only follow war scores.

[GrantDawg]

Dola: You also have no news feed. I wish you at least got major news from across the world.

[GrantDawg]

The infamous triple dola: I just saw something really cool. The AI Duke of Northumbria which basically controls all of north and central England went to war to press the claim of the Earl of Herefordshire on a Welsh county. He was winning the war but at a big costs of men. Just as he is weakened, the same earl that he was pressing his claim for declares a war of independence against him! He now has three times the men that the Duke has.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by Drake

I haven't gotten that trait, yet. Maybe I'm using the wrong lifestyle focus?

It only appears in the most of inbred of characters. Start with a Father/daughter mating and go from there.

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

I haven't played very much yet. Having a hard time settling on what I want to play. I have started as a earl in England with a 1066 starting date a couple of times. The first time, William won easily. The second time it was Harald of Norway. It seems it is just random based on who Harold fights. If he throws his army at one, the other wins. I just started a game as an observer to see what happens, and I don't like the fact under observer you cant watch battles, you can only follow war scores.

In my first long game, Norway has held all of England and most of Scandinavia for over 100 years, and is slowly eating Scotland (I've managed to keep them out of Wales and Ireland with marriages/alliances although have had to fight off a couple of invasions by their vassals)

Although Harald winning in 1066 isn't a hugely ahistorical outcome (I think your theory makes sense) it doesn't feel like that massive Norwegian/Danelaw empire for that long is very realistic. Europe is basically 3 huge blobs at this point (France/HRE/Danelaw) with Castille well on the way to eating all of Spain as well. I think there's a couple of mechanics that contribute to that - firstly the Viking succession being electoral where they can choose the strongest candidate and keep the entire empire together vs. the British being stuck with partition until deep into the game, and secondly the decision to abstract ships/transports which means as long as you have coin (which a big empire will always have) it's trivial to transport your entire army back and forth across the water in days or months. Norway/Danelaw just had 2 wars going on at the same time - one with most of Finland and one with Scotland and won both - that kind of thing probably wouldn't have been realistic with 7000 men in 1960, let alone 1160.

I might put this one down for a bit until realism mods and/or some balancing patches come out. I can't put my finger on it, but it does feel that something is less "fun" than CK2. It's definitely a very polished and well done game, and Paradox should be commended for finally nailing a release, but it's just not grabbing me for some reason.

[Drake]

What I'm really missing is some of the reporting that came with later expansions. Battles that have happened, house rankings, etc.

Stuff across the map changes so fast that I can't keep up with what's going on in the rest of the world.

Also, my son and heir, who I made the Duke of Lothian just "resigned" his title to his newly born son. He'll still be King of England when I kick off, but for now, he's just a courtier in his infant son's court. I have no idea what the internal reasoning was for that, and the game isn't giving me any clues. I'm sort of assuming it was a scandal that my spymaster just didn't uncover?

[tarcone]

Love the stories and SO intrigued. Whats the learning curve?

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Love the stories and SO intrigued. Whats the learning curve?

There is a tutorial that I think does a pretty good job of teaching to the basics.

I was totally lost in CK2 and never learned it. This one was much easier to learn especially with the tutorial. I have 44 hours into and I am still learning every time I play.

[Izulde]

I'm going to have to tap out of playing until a 2D map comes out, I think. The 3D map gives me a migraine if I'm playing for any length of time.

[GrantDawg]

Spent all day playing. I totally lost track of time, and I kept getting that "one more thing" suction to keep going. I am enjoying it. I jumped on that observational game has an early with two counties. When I quit,y grandson was King of England and my granddaughter was Queen of Jursalem. I won't say it was easier than CK2. It was probably easier than early CK2 was.
It was interesting that the first thing I had to do when I took control of my Grandson was have him seduce his wife. They had been married for ten years, but never had a kid. After seducing her, they had two boys in short order.


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[Drake]

So you're saying it's also like a real-life marriage simulator...

[dubb93]

If it is anything like CK 2 the best place for a beginner is to start in Ireland. It’s a fragmented island without a major power and atleast in the early game stays isolated pretty well giving you a good chance to learn the mechanics without being overwhelmed. I’m not sure if this all carries over to CK 3, but it was good advice for CK 2.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by dubb93

If it is anything like CK 2 the best place for a beginner is to start in Ireland. It’s a fragmented island without a major power and atleast in the early game stays isolated pretty well giving you a good chance to learn the mechanics without being overwhelmed. I’m not sure if this all carries over to CK 3, but it was good advice for CK 2.

I think it still is, but with one thing to consider. Invasions from sea is much easier in this game. All you need is a little coin, and you can send any size army quickly to sea. In CK2 it was often hard to get the number of ships you need, which meant sending smaller chunks of your army over time.

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

I think it still is, but with one thing to consider. Invasions from sea is much easier in this game. All you need is a little coin, and you can send any size army quickly to sea. In CK2 it was often hard to get the number of ships you need, which meant sending smaller chunks of your army over time.

It's somewhat less so Tutorial Island because of this and the more aggressive AI. Especially in 867, where the Vikings like to eat your face. 1066 is less harsh but can still be tricky thanks to Scotland.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Invasions from sea is much easier in this game. All you need is a little coin, and you can send any size army quickly to sea. In CK2 it was often hard to get the number of ships you need, which meant sending smaller chunks of your army over time.

That feature right there was worth the purchase price all by itself. I tend to play in England most of the time, which means that reprisals against vikings or Crusades were such a pain in the butt.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Drake

That feature right there was worth the purchase price all by itself. I tend to play in England most of the time, which means that reprisals against vikings or Crusades were such a pain in the butt.

I agree, but I do wish they would have add a mechanic either making it more expensive (maybe cheaper the more sea-based the country is) and there should be a chance of armies being lost at sea.

[GrantDawg]

The two main slow-down mechanics are converting religion and increasing control in a county.

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

I agree, but I do wish they would have add a mechanic either making it more expensive (maybe cheaper the more sea-based the country is) and there should be a chance of armies being lost at sea.

Yeah, this plus generally increasing the length of time to embark and tweaking the AI willingness to do it might solve two problems - firstly how trivial it is to fight wars on two landmasses at once and secondly how annoying it is when enemy armies just escape to the sea, wait for you to siege down a castle and then decide to land and target one of yours.

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

The two main slow-down mechanics are converting religion and increasing control in a county.

I'm wondering if culture shouldn't be a much larger brake than it is right now as well. Historically if you look at large invasions and land being held by outsiders in Northern Europe (Danish invasion of Normandy, Norman invasion of England) the conquerors typically at least paid service to taking on board the culture of the new realm. Right now it feels like there's absolutely no penalty whatsoever for a Scandinavian king to rule all or most of the British Isles and whatever revolts do happen are just vassals who are pissed off for one reason or another.