BART Shooting

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by Noop

Clue me in I am lost.

Just made me laugh, and seemed like the kind of comment that would attract a lot of drive-by attention in this thread.

[Noop]

Well I hope he is put on death row if they find out(which they won't) he did it with malicious intent.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by Noop

Well I hope he is put on death row if they find out(which they won't) he did it with malicious intent.

I am of two minds on that matter. He certainly would deserve a death penalty, but would it punish him more to be sent to a maximum security prison and have to live out each day in the general population for the rest of his life?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

It remains a possible theory that he was killed due to his race, until determined otherwise.

It'll remain a contention regardless whether it's determined otherwise or not.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Noop

Wouldn't be the first time in the history of our country.....just saying.

A lot of things have happened in the history of our country.

Blacks have committed violent crimes against whites, in our country's history. That doesn't make it OK for me to be suspicious of all blacks I see walking down the street. And it doesn't even make it OK for me to assume that race is a factor if I am attacked by one, especially if there's zero evidence supporting that.

For some reason though, it's totally OK to make racist assumptions about white people....

[Noop]

Originally Posted by molson

A lot of things have happened in the history of our country.

Blacks have committed violent crimes against whites, in our country's history. That doesn't make it OK for me to be suspicious of all blacks I see walking down the street. And it doesn't even make it OK for me to assume that race is a factor if I am attacked by one, especially if there's zero evidence supporting that.

That is true. How often do you hear of a minority shooting and killing white people from a position of power.(Law Enforcement) Just saying....

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

It'll remain a contention regardless whether it's determined otherwise or not.

Which is largely due to the history of this nation.

I can only speak for myself. I am willing to be convinced otherwise, but the actions thus far don't speak well for this officer or the officers there with him. I would have certainly been more likely to buy the "accidental shooting" angle if all of those involved had come clean immediately. They've damaged their credibility through their own actions, which will forever taint their version of events (whether the truth or not).

[molson]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

I am of two minds on that matter. He certainly would deserve a death penalty, but would it punish him more to be sent to a maximum security prison and have to live out each day in the general population for the rest of his life?

Are you in favor of capital punishment in any other situation?

[illinifan999]

Originally Posted by molson

For some reason though, it's totally OK to make racist assumptions about white people.

Well duh, only white people are racist!

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by molson

Are you in favor of capital punishment in any other situation?

In general, I am not a fan/supporter of the death penalty. Generally, I see killing someone only acceptable as a self defense, and not as a punishment.

I'm not making this decision based on wanting to pay for room and board for hard criminals for the rest of their lives. Just stating my philosophy on the killing of people.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

Which is largely due to the history of this nation.

That's a weird idea...How many black people have been killed by white people of authority in this country? I know, it's a huge number.

But how many black people have killed white people in this country? Maybe not as many as the first number if you go back before the Civil War. But that's a huge number too. Should I become all upset by that, on a day to day basis, and not trust any black person?

I know, the ratios aren't exactly right here....but the past (and even the present) don't justify more hate. That doesn't solve anything.

[stevew]

I haven't seen this poor of a response to a white man shooting a black man on video since Wild Wild West came out.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by illinifan999

Well duh, only white people are racist!

Given the history of this nation, it is certainly easier to see racism from whites than from other groups. How many white people were counted as 3/5 of a person and kept as slaves?

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Noop

That is true. How often do you hear of a minority shooting and killing white people from a position of power.(Law Enforcement) Just saying....

Don't know about accidental killings, but they do keep stats for "justifiable homicides":

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/justify.htm

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by molson

I know, the ratios aren't exactly right here....but the past (and even the present) don't justify more hate. That doesn't solve anything.

Indeed. I'm not sure I stated that anything was justified. I was merely attempting to explain where that point of view might come from. Recognizing why people would think the way they do does not mean you are saying it is the best possible way to be.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

Given the history of this nation, it is certainly easier to see racism from whites than from other groups. How many white people were counted as 3/5 of a person and kept as slaves?

While there's nothing wrong with remembering the bad parts of our history in order to help prevent those things from happening again, continuing to dwell on them and citing them as proof of someone's motives today doesn't bring us anywhere closer to finding a solution to the issue.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by Atocep

While there's nothing wrong with remembering the bad parts of our history in order to help prevent those things from happening again, continuing to dwell on them and citing them as proof of someone's motives today doesn't bring us anywhere closer to finding a solution to the issue.

This isn't about finding a cure. I was talking about why people might assume that whites are racist when they do something like this. It is because there is a history in this nation, going well beyond slavery, of white supremacy being asserted one way or another. People are not pulling this out of thin air. Trying to pretend that these feelings are not out there is not going to make it disappear.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

I would have certainly been more likely to buy the "accidental shooting" angle if all of those involved had come clean immediately.

I'd have to think them foolish at this point to do so, as no matter what happened the truth doesn't seem likely to be believed IMO.

They've damaged their credibility through their own actions, which will forever taint their version of events (whether the truth or not).

Just as some the rioting that follows the death of some thug on a subway several inhibits my ability to get particularly worked up about the original incident.

[illinifan999]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

Given the history of this nation, it is certainly easier to see racism from whites than from other groups. How many white people were counted as 3/5 of a person and kept as slaves?

I'm a victim of black on white racism almost everyday. I've been attacked and threatened to be killed solely because I was white. Racism is a problem for every race, and when people really want to get rid of then they'll start holding both the majority and the minority responsible for it. Until that day comes, nothing will ever be solved.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

Given the history of this nation, it is certainly easier to see racism from whites than from other groups. How many white people were counted as 3/5 of a person and kept as slaves?

You gave first hand experience in being counted as 3/5 of a person?

[Noop]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I'd have to think them foolish at this point to do so, as no matter what happened the truth doesn't seem likely to be believed IMO.



Just as some the rioting that follows the death of some thug on a subway several inhibits my ability to get particularly worked up about the original incident.

How do you know he was a thug? The fact people are rioting doesn't change the fact he was killed in cold blood.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I'd have to think them foolish at this point to do so, as no matter what happened the truth doesn't seem likely to be believed IMO.

I was speaking for myself. I will never find it foolish for someone who killed another person to come forward and tell the proper authorities the truth as they know it (with a lawyer present as well).

Just as some the rioting that follows the death of some thug on a subway several inhibits my ability to get particularly worked up about the original incident.

Some thug, eh? I don't know whether the guy was a saint or anything like that, but I haven't seen any evidence that his life needed to be taken away from him. Please elaborate on the justification for that, if you would.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Noop

That is true. How often do you hear of a minority shooting and killing white people from a position of power.(Law Enforcement) Just saying....

So everytime a black thug kills a white cop should all the white people go burn down black neighborhoods and feel like they were justified?

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

You gave first hand experience in being counted as 3/5 of a person?

No. I read the US Constitution.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

This isn't about finding a cure. I was talking about why people might assume that whites are racist when they do something like this.

Which is racism in itself...

Originally Posted by Tekneek

It is because there is a history in this nation, going well beyond slavery, of white supremacy being asserted one way or another. People are not pulling this out of thin air. Trying to pretend that these feelings are not out there is not going to make it disappear.

I can't see how simply saying "because there is a history in this nation" makes hate ok.

[st.cronin]

Maybe I'm naive, but I don't think too many cops are closet white supremacists. I think most cops are probably somewhat misanthropic.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Lathum

So everytime a black thug kills a white cop should all the white people go burn down black neighborhoods and feel like they were justified?

No reason too because the black guy will be in jail and not allowed to walk away from the murder scene.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by illinifan999

I'm a victim of black on white racism almost everyday. I've been attacked and threatened to be killed solely because I was white. Racism is a problem for every race, and when people really want to get rid of then they'll start holding both the majority and the minority responsible for it. Until that day comes, nothing will ever be solved.

Sounds good to me. Of course, I must ask, are you telling me that you've had people representing the government telling you that you cannot do something simply because of your race? We aren't that many decades away from segregation...

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by Atocep

I can't see how simply saying "because there is a history in this nation" makes hate ok.

It doesn't make it ok. It simply helps to explain it. I also didn't say it EXCUSES it, either.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Maybe I'm naive, but I don't think too many cops are closet white supremacists. I think most cops are probably somewhat misanthropic.

And Mark Fuhrman wasn't a racist either... I'm not saying everybody is, or even that a majority are, but I doubt that there is a 100% absence of it either. Either way, it is not the likelihood of a cop being a racist that causes people to think an incident is another act of oppression from a majority group. It is based almost entirely on events that happened previously and generally out of control of those involved in the new incident.

[illinifan999]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

Sounds good to me. Of course, I must ask, are you telling me that you've had people representing the government telling you that you cannot do something simply because of your race? We aren't that many decades away from segregation...

I've had plenty of people telling me I cannot apply for a scholarship because I am not a minority. The majority of the people that I would be competing with for those scholarships didn't have the government telling them they can't do something.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by illinifan999

I'm a victim of black on white racism almost everyday. I've been attacked and threatened to be killed solely because I was white. Racism is a problem for every race, and when people really want to get rid of then they'll start holding both the majority and the minority responsible for it. Until that day comes, nothing will ever be solved.

State sanctioned racism is what most minorities(I don't want to use black because other minorities have been discriminated against as well women being the first that come to mind) face. What you faced was terrible...

[Noop]

Originally Posted by illinifan999

I've had plenty of people telling me I cannot apply for a scholarship because I am not a minority. The majority of the people that I would be competing with for those scholarships didn't have the government telling them they can't do something.

Oh so your bitter... okay.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

Are you seriously suggesting that the mob's destruction of people's private property, including people who may well agree with them, is justified due to this?

[Karlifornia]

Jon...your thug on a subway comment was spot on. Good job!

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by Noop

No reason too because the black guy will be in jail and not allowed to walk away from the murder scene.

As of June 30, 2007, the incarceration rate in state or federal prison or jail for men was 1,406 per 100,000 residents, for women 136 per 100,000 residents. The rate for white men was 773 per 100,000, for black men 4,618 per 100,000, for Hispanic men 1,747 per 100,000. The rate for white women was 95 per 100,000, for black women 348 per 100,000, and for Hispanic women 146 per 100,000.
Source:
Sabol, William J., PhD, Couture, Heather, Bureau of Justice Statistics, Prison Inmates at Midyear 2007 (Washington, DC: US Department of Justice, June 2008), NCJ221944, p. 7, Table 10.

The data would seem to indicate that minorities are more likely to be incarcerated than whites.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Maybe I'm naive, but I don't think too many cops are closet white supremacists. I think most cops are probably somewhat misanthropic.

Depends on the city. I wouldn't call the cops in my town closet white supremacists only because they are pretty out in the open with their racism.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by illinifan999

I've had plenty of people telling me I cannot apply for a scholarship because I am not a minority. The majority of the people that I would be competing with for those scholarships didn't have the government telling them they can't do something.

It is hard for me to give much of an opinion on this. Can you detail the scholarships a little more so I can look into this and see what I think about it?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Noop

No reason too because the black guy will be in jail and not allowed to walk away from the murder scene.

I'm sorry, but this is such a predictable response


Aren't you in school to be a lawyer?

Maybe these rioters should let justice take it's course?

I'll rephrase my question.

Lets say a traffic camera captured a black man running over a white police officer. The black man was questioned about the incedent but not taken into custody because it was unsure if he hit him by mistake or on purpose.

Would the white community be justified in rioting?

[illinifan999]

Originally Posted by Noop

Oh so your bitter... okay.

You're damn right I am. Do you think it is right to judge people based on their race?

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Would the white community be justified in rioting?

Justified? I'm not entirely sure anyone is "justified" to do that. If it were in the US, it would certainly seem rather random and inexpicable, given the unlikely odds that minorities have a history of treading on the majority.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

As of June 30, 2007, the incarceration rate in state or federal prison or jail for men was 1,406 per 100,000 residents, for women 136 per 100,000 residents. The rate for white men was 773 per 100,000, for black men 4,618 per 100,000, for Hispanic men 1,747 per 100,000. The rate for white women was 95 per 100,000, for black women 348 per 100,000, and for Hispanic women 146 per 100,000.
Source:
Sabol, William J., PhD, Couture, Heather, Bureau of Justice Statistics, Prison Inmates at Midyear 2007 (Washington, DC: US Department of Justice, June 2008), NCJ221944, p. 7, Table 10.

The data would seem to indicate that minorities are more likely to be incarcerated than whites.

what point are you trying to make?

I think we all know there are more minorities in jail.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

The data would seem to indicate that minorities are more likely to be incarcerated than whites.

And what is the reason for that? I hardly believe it has to do with the amount and type of melanin in their body.

It has more to do with economic and educational situations that most blacks have been placed in. Statistically, the lower your income and the lower your education, the higher your crime rate. There is also a social aspect and culture that makes blacks feel like it's cool to commit crimes.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

Justified? I'm not entirely sure anyone is "justified" to do that. If it were in the US, it would certainly seem rather random and inexpicable, given the unlikely odds that minorities have a history of treading on the majority.

these people in Oakland seemed to think they were justified.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I'm sorry, but this is such a predictable response


Aren't you in school to be a lawyer?

Maybe these rioters should let justice take it's course?

I'll rephrase my question.

Lets say a traffic camera captured a black man running over a white police officer. The black man was questioned about the incedent but not taken into custody because it was unsure if he hit him by mistake or on purpose.

Would the white community be justified in rioting?

Either way it goes the black guy would be in custody no question about it and that's not even giving a bias POV. Also there is a history within the black community of suffering police brutality, I can not say the same is true in the white community.

Eleanor Bumpurs. Michael Stewart…Amadou Diallo…Sean Bell... that list goes on and on.

I start law school in August by the way.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by illinifan999

You're damn right I am. Do you think it is right to judge people based on their race?

That's a two way street... more often then not blacks aren't on the receiving end of benefits.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by Lathum

these people in Oakland seemed to think they were justified.

And so did the people enacting Jim Crowe laws. Feeling justified when you are doing something wrong does not mean you are actually justified.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Lets say a traffic camera captured a black man running over a white police officer. The black man was questioned about the incedent but not taken into custody because it was unsure if he hit him by mistake or on purpose.

Would the white community be justified in rioting?

I'm not an expert on this or anything, but I would think that anyone (regardless of race) captured on video running over a police officer would be taken into custody even if the police weren't sure if it was a mistake or on purpose.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

And what is the reason for that? I hardly believe it has to do with the amount and type of melanin in their body.

It has more to do with economic and educational situations that most blacks have been placed in. Statistically, the lower your income and the lower your education, the higher your crime rate. There is also a social aspect and culture that makes blacks feel like it's cool to commit crimes.

Did I say it was because of their race? No. I merely shared some data.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by Lathum

what point are you trying to make?

I think we all know there are more minorities in jail.

The data supports the claim that Noop made. Are you saying it doesn't?