Iraqi suicide bombing

[Dutch]

I will try and give you a view of what I would guess the war looks like to an Iraqi

I'll try and be the flip side of what I think Iraqi's think.

Is it really self-defense? - Iraq haven't attacked the United States and haven't been actively involved in any war in recent history (ie. last 5 years).

Fair enough. I will agree with that sentiment.

There has been no 'proven' connection between Iraq and 9/11 (in fact it is proven that Saddam and Bin Laden dislike each other intensively).

A new proven fact is that Saddam enjoys the same tactics as Hamas and Al Qaeda. Suicide Bombers. It's not written in the Koran, so they must be learning these tactics from somewhere. And if Saddam is so quick to mimic Al Qaeda, the damage he can havoc is far greater than Al Qaeda.

But I agree, the average Iraqi doesn't understand this, they are not allowed to believe this.

The Iraqi leaders had allowed inspectors into the country and are claiming they complied with their requests (please bear in mind that I'm not debating the accuracy of this, just indicating what the average Iraqi will know).

If the Iraqi people have the same level of faith in their regime that a "western" nation has in theirs, I would agree. But they are well aware of Saddam Hussein's craftiness, so I seriously doubt they believe Saddam Hussein complied with anything.

As for the tactics the Iraqi's are using, no great surprise... they're being attacked by an overwhelming force which they can't stand against using conventional weapons .... so yes of course they'll fight using non-convential means, anything else would be stupid (and just because they are enemies doesn't mean they are stupid - despite what the media would like people to believe Saddam must be a very intelligent chap ... otherwise he wouldn't have survived in power so long).

For Saddam to use these tactics, he either uses them as doctrine (as I believe regardless of the American advantage) or out of desperations (like the Hamas and Japanese did with Suicide Bombers and the Germans with OST units and the old gun at the back of your neck trick).

Either way, I doubt the majority of Iraqi's feel these are noble defensive tactics.

This is somethat that has been shown time and time again throughout history. Most military advisors would have realised that this would be the case before the war began. What amazed me most was the unrealistc inital estimates for the war length that the allied PR people were giving out.

I would think the allied PR, as shown through history, shouldn't amaze you either.

Please also remember that 'tactics' are always viewed differently by different people, for instance many of the tactics they are using (ie. hit and run) were used by resistance fighters during WW2, we view those fighters as brave and courageous - not cowardly ... why because they were on our side. Don't be surprised that much of the Moslem world aren't buying the western propoganda they see a country being invaded by an overwhelming force which is better equipped and the 'plucky' freedom fighters attempting to stand up to them.

Hit and Run tactics are standard, it's the execution of prisoners being broadcast on Iraqi TV, the head on a stick barbarism, surrender flags and then fire, suicide bombings (or homicide bombings if your are a FOXNEWS fan), the dispersement of their military throughout civilian populated areas, the refusal to wear the uniform in a fight, and the basic idea's of using Civilian women and children to hide behind that is disgusting.

In contrast the Iraqi's will most likely view the Allied tactics of mass bombing from afar as cowardly because there is no effective defense that the Iraqi's can take against it (very limited anti-aircraft defenses, most of which was destroyed quickly) and its indiscriminate usage (again using what the average Iraqi will consider the truth).

I think the average Iraqi will notice that the US Army has "boots on the ground" and are within 100 miles of Baghdad and the Iraqi Army has been to afraid to defend their homeland. Same with regards to the British forces at Basra. I'm sure the women standing in their villages are trying to pull the soldiers off their backs and say, "You go out their and be a man and stop endangering my children."

Finally the people of Iraq have a great distrust of western people because of past evidence of our treatment of them, look back to what has happened in the past and admit there is basis for that reasoning, eg. America (and possibly UK - can't remember) enticing revolt during the Gulf war then failing to help back it (which lead to many people being slaughtered during the revolt), blocking trade etc. with the country which brought on poverty etc.

They do remember that, and I'm sure they are very skeptical, but we are in basic control all those lands where those people were (Kurds and Shia's).

PS. I personally don't know whether this war is 'just' or not, was the country likely to attack America/UK - dunno, have they weapons of mass-destruction - dunno.

I would submit to say the war is not just is to say that 12 years of UN Sanctions was not just, and to further regard the UN as irresponsible on top of irrelevant would be back breaking. I think the UN had it's reasons and they were just, I think the politics of things ruffled their feathers a little with the US/UK/Aus insistance that it be resolved now rather than......never?

Its impossible imho for anyone outside of the Military/Goverment to know enough information to ascertain enough information to decide this imho.

But it is possible to have more trust in our respective governments than Iraq's. And the only way in this instance to not trust ours is to, by default, believe what Iraq is saying. I just refuse to do that. In my opinion.

I DO know that the reporting that is being done is an insult to the average persons intelligence (ie. A convoy of lightly armoured vehicles was AMBUSHED by people with machines and rocket launchers - there were no allied deaths? ... either the Iraqi's have been trained by the Empires Storm Troopers or the allied soldiers are bullet proof these days?.

Reporters are generally very insulting, but I would suggest with an opposite spin. So far as I can tell, the reporters are trying to appease both the Supporters and the Anti crowd, and we all know that appeasement just pisses everybody off!

I can tell you that the Iraqi's resistance has been mostly disorganized and unworthy of being called a legitimate resistance. So I would suspect the real story is that some folks opened fire on a convoy and were soundly defeated. Let's not forget that the US and UK have gone up against relatively weak forces. These aren't 100% conditioned, hardened Republican Guard troops. And by the time we see them, they aren't going to be 100% either.



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[mrskippy]

Is it really self-defense? - Iraq haven't attacked the United States and haven't been actively involved in any war in recent history (ie. last 5 years).

There has been no 'proven' connection between Iraq and 9/11 (in fact it is proven that Saddam and Bin Laden dislike each other intensively).

Yeah, keep telling yourself that. Somebody is fronting bin Laden. It's proven that whoever is must have lots of cash. Saddam is one of the world's richest men and the most likely to use it for terrorism.

Everybody wants proof. Well, the only way we'll get proof is doing what we're doing.

Honestly, I think we'll end up finding bin Laden with Saddam.

I DO know that the reporting that is being done is an insult to the average persons intelligence (ie. A convoy of lightly armoured vehicles was AMBUSHED by people with machines and rocket launchers - there were no allied deaths? ... either the Iraqi's have been trained by the Empires Storm Troopers or the allied soldiers are bullet proof these days?.

Uh, we've had scores of injured allied forces. And a few deaths. Fortunately no mass casulaties yet. But once we hit Baghdad, don't hold your breath. My guess is that in Baghdad this war will get far more deadly ... possibly with chemical and biological weapons.

Saddam hasn't even brought out planes yet. I'm guessing he'll use aerial attacks on troops once they get to Baghdad, with chemical and/or biological weapons.

[mrskippy]

9. Anti-Bush: I think Bush is moraly bankrupt and a terrible president so I guess I plead guilty here too. Didn't know that was a crime or even something bad.

Clinton was too, but I didn't bitch about it or rip the President in a mean-spirited, anti-American way. Quite the contrary, I was an avid supporter of Bill Clinton, going as far to contact my Congressman (a Republican) and both Senators (two Democrats) to urge a no vote on impeachment.

Every President could be considered morally bankrupt (Bush I makign false tax promises, Reagan's Iran Contra fiasco, Carter's actions during the hostage crisis, Nixon's Watergate, Johnson's gung-ho attitude with Vietnam, Kennedy's bad company, and so on).

[BishopMVP]

Why don't we stoop to the level of Saddam and his henchmen when they try these tactics on us?

Because we are the United States of America.

[astralhaze]

Originally posted by mrskippy
Clinton was too, but I didn't bitch about it or rip the President in a mean-spirited, anti-American way. Quite the contrary, I was an avid supporter of Bill Clinton, going as far to contact my Congressman (a Republican) and both Senators (two Democrats) to urge a no vote on impeachment.

Ok, but did you call those who did bitch about him and rip him in a mean-spirited way (and there were plenty of republicans doing so) anti-american?

[Daimyo]

This whole Kippy character has to be a troll playing us all for fools... there is no way he could possibly be a real person!

[mrskippy]

Originally posted by astralhaze
Ok, but did you call those who did bitch about him and rip him in a mean-spirited way (and there were plenty of republicans doing so) anti-american?

Sure!!! I'm non-partisan when it comes to how people treat a President.

[andy m]

Originally posted by mrskippy
Anti-war protestors are:

1 - Pacifists
2 - Communists
3 - Environmentalists Whackos
4 - Fucked in the head
5 - Liberals
6 - Anti-American
7 - Pro-Iraqi
8 - Pro-Saddam
9 - Anti-Bush
10 - Anti-Establishment

.... Basically they don't represent the American way!!!

i scored highly! but i won't say on which ones. here's an alternative, to be taken equally as seriously:

Pro-war death lovers are:

1 - people who get a hard on when they see an A-10 Tankbuster on TV
2 - fascists
3 - think they are being american and are promoting their corporate heroes by throwing their mcdonalds / coca cola branded waste out of the window of their SUV
4 - fucked rarely
5 - would think it was a good idea they everyone had a tracking device implanted in their neck
6 - have the stars and stripes tatooed on their butt
7 - giggle when iraqi civilians die
8 - would quite like saddam if he was american and they met him at the golf club
9 - trimmed a bush in their garden into the shape of george's face
10 - can't remember the last time they had a subversive thought