Le Tour - 2009 Edition

[WheelsVT]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

wouldn't that make us essentially a day behind in the discussion?

i suppose that's fine though. we can still have spoilery discussion of today on today

3hrs of tv watching? with the dvr once i skip all the blabber and ignore the post-finish half hour it's maybe...45 mins to an hour.

I try to forward but end up watch most of the coverage. I can't get enough of the behind the scene and side stories from Bob/Phil/Paul. It's also cool when Vaughters joins in and discusses the Garmin perspective too.

the rule: I guess it doesn't really matter to me. Either way I'll watch it.
So ax the thread rule. I'll just not read if I don't want to know just yet.

Let the climbs begin! I'm sure the other teams are glad to see one of Astana's key lieutenants out of the picture.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by WheelsVT

I try to forward but end up watch most of the coverage. I can't get enough of the behind the scene and side stories from Bob/Phil/Paul. It's also cool when Vaughters joins in and discusses the Garmin perspective too.

the rule: I guess it doesn't really matter to me. Either way I'll watch it.
So ax the thread rule. I'll just not read if I don't want to know just yet.

Let the climbs begin! I'm sure the other teams are glad to see one of Astana's key lieutenants out of the picture.

like i said - i don't mind the thought of spoiler-tagging stuff. but it doesn't really "ruin" the stage to me to know who won at the end, or that somebody fell...the journey matters as much as the result, ya know?

I watch some of the behind the scenes stuff, but some of it can be kind of silly.

I don't know - Bob was saying the other day about how Levi was basically a free-rider on Astana right now. I suppose once they hit the mountains that'd change and he'd be doing more work for the team, but they made it sound like he was in some sense just doing his own thing right now...

[RPI-Fan]

Why spoiler tags? If peopel don't want to be spoiled, just don't read the thread til they've watched???

[DaddyTorgo]

i think the consensus was that i don't care about spoilers.

cycling is as much about the process of getting to the end as it is who won the stage in some sense. it's not going to ruin my day to know the finish, because there are still stories (how close it was, the interplay, etc) to watch for

[AlexB]

Seems like Oscar Freire and Julian Dean were both shot at and hit by airgun pellets in todays stage. Madness.

[PilotMan]

And that's going to be it. Two weeks of boredom ended with 15 minutes of activity and another week of boredom to follow. How in the world is this the best event? Why is cycling exciting, if this is it?

[whomario]

Well, if like 15 out of the best 20 riders get caught on performance enhancers during the last 5 years and get banned or retire, than the level can´t exactly be expected to go up. And then you have the organisers make the course easier and easier every year so that the efforts will seem less suspicious.

In the late 90s it was awesome. Yeah, propably everyone was pumped up but it was fun definitely.

A track rider (Wiggins, multiple world championships and Olympic titles there) finished 3rd on a mountain top finish in his first attempt at going for the GC for crying out loud.

people also need to accept the fact that with a dominating team like Astana no one has a shot at attacking early without a 95% chance of totally blowing up in the process and loose all chances at a good place.

The Team Time Trial is a major pain in the ass for suspense. Seriously, get rid of it allready. There´s enough chance for teamwork over the 3 weeks, no need to basically decide the tour that way. Because when a dominating guy with a dominating team is up front early (Contador) there is essentially no way to attack him.

Spoiler

And Armstrong looked every bit his age and like he had been out of racing for 3 years. Order is restored, thank god for that today. Expect him to go on a big attack though, can´t see him go down quiet

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by whomario

A track rider (Wiggins, multiple world championships and Olympic titles there) finished 3rd on a mountain top finish in his first attempt at going for the GC for crying out loud.

He's lost around 20lbs specifically for this reason though, and the fact that he was so good on the track suggest he has some ability! And you've got the likes of Evans, Sastre and his team leader Vandervelde getting dropped by him which is no mean feat (although Sastre came back)

I do agree that the course does seem a lot easier this year though - a distinct lack of mountain top finishes.

Main thought on today was that in his first attempt on GC, Bradley showed more aggressive intent (he attacked at one point and made the crossover to Frank Schleck) that I have ever seen from Cadel Evans! (I don't get Evans at all as a serious contender for the yellow jersey: he's good, no doubt, but seems not to have the exposion to attack, only the stamina to follow. So if no-one takes up the chase then he is screwed.)

I reckon Bradley has a shot at 3rd - my gut tells me Andy Schleck will probably edge him out of 2nd on the mountains, and then it's between Lance and Wiggins in the TT for 3rd...

[whomario]

Originally Posted by Jari Rantanen's Shorts

He's lost around 20lbs specifically for this reason though, and the fact that he was so good on the track suggest he has some ability! And you've got the likes of Evans, Sastre and his team leader Vandervelde getting dropped by him which is no mean feat (although Sastre came back)

I do agree that the course does seem a lot easier this year though - a distinct lack of mountain top finishes.

Oh, don´t get me wrong : That´s one hell of a feat and he´s ridden a great race.
But i also know from personal experience that this last mountain yesterday is a rollers-mountain par excellence. It benefits good TT guys and guys with power over guys going/pedalling at a high frequency. Andorra was the same (albeit a bit tougher) and even the Ventoux is not as tough as it´s resumee suggests, especially with it being at the end of a very easy stage beforehand, as long as the weather isn´t 30+ degrees and sun all day.
The commitee seems to think that less deciciveness in the stages would result in more thrill due to lesser gaps between the riders (and would result in less doping discussions). But that´s just not the case, plain and simple.
It all but cancelled out mountain specialists. The few still arround have worked on their TT skills and lost ability on the mountains over the years.

And you can propably start the countdown on doping accusations towards Wiggins, that´s how fucked up the sport is. (not saying he is on sth, just saying that the media will react that way)
Which is the reason why i only watch the Tour and the Vuelta and only in small doses with like maybe 5,6 stages and definitely won´t rearrange my schedule for it anymore... Oh and Paris-Roubaix and the Flandern Tour, they kick ass.

@ PilotMan : Have you seen Paris-Roubaix and Flandern before ? That is Grade A a spectacle

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by whomario

Oh, don´t get me wrong : That´s one hell of a feat and he´s ridden a great race.
But i also know from personal experience that this last mountain yesterday is a rollers-mountain par excellence. It benefits good TT guys and guys with power over guys going/pedalling at a high frequency. Andorra was the same (albeit a bit tougher) and even the Ventoux is not as tough as it´s resumee suggests, especially with it being at the end of a very easy stage beforehand, as long as the weather isn´t 30+ degrees and sun all day.
The commitee seems to think that less deciciveness in the stages would result in more thrill due to lesser gaps between the riders (and would result in less doping discussions). But that´s just not the case, plain and simple.
It all but cancelled out mountain specialists. The few still arround have worked on their TT skills and lost ability on the mountains over the years.

And you can propably start the countdown on doping accusations towards Wiggins, that´s how fucked up the sport is. (not saying he is on sth, just saying that the media will react that way)
Which is the reason why i only watch the Tour and the Vuelta and only in small doses with like maybe 5,6 stages and definitely won´t rearrange my schedule for it anymore... Oh and Paris-Roubaix and the Flandern Tour, they kick ass.

@ PilotMan : Have you seen Paris-Roubaix and Flandern before ? That is Grade A a spectacle

To be fair the thought had crossed my mind - I don't think he's the type of chap who would do that, but you never can tell (I wouldn't have thought it of David Millar either). I pray his metamorphosis is purely truly down to ability and hard work...

[DaddyTorgo]

wow - Armstrong with a HELL of a ride across a big gap there to catch Contador and Kloden at the top of that last climb...that was just...unreal.

If he had that level of ride in him the other day he might even be in yellow right now.

[BishopMVP]

If Lance is feeling that good, would tomorrow be a good chance to try and take it to Contador, or is he really hoping to pick up 2 minutes in the individual TT just before Paris (or hope Contador falls/accept 2nd)? It doesn't look like anybody can beat Contador on a mountain finish, but tomorrow's course looks ideal for a change of pace type attack with the undulating terrain.

Hopefully Lance/a Schleck possibly with Jens Voight/Carlos Sastre tries it tomorrow. That 30 minutes today near the end was probably the most exciting racing so far.

[DaddyTorgo]

honestly I think Armstrong is too classy to try to attack Contador, unless Contador just absolutely falls apart somehow. the team aspect comes into it so much there.

Now if somebody like Sastre takes off and Lance is chasing him down and Contador for whatever reason can't close the gap enough okay. but i think the odds of that happening are so "slim to none"

[WheelsVT]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

If Lance is feeling that good, would tomorrow be a good chance to try and take it to Contador, or is he really hoping to pick up 2 minutes in the individual TT just before Paris (or hope Contador falls/accept 2nd)? It doesn't look like anybody can beat Contador on a mountain finish, but tomorrow's course looks ideal for a change of pace type attack with the undulating terrain.

Hopefully Lance/a Schleck possibly with Jens Voight/Carlos Sastre tries it tomorrow. That 30 minutes today near the end was probably the most exciting racing so far.

Jens took a very nasty fall at ~50mph yesterday right on his face and shoulder. The only update I've seen since was from Lance's twitter where Frank Schleck said he's ok.

Edit: Update on his condition

[terpkristin]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

honestly I think Armstrong is too classy to try to attack Contador, unless Contador just absolutely falls apart somehow. the team aspect comes into it so much there.

Now if somebody like Sastre takes off and Lance is chasing him down and Contador for whatever reason can't close the gap enough okay. but i think the odds of that happening are so "slim to none"

+1

/tk

[scooter]

I watch the Tour live in the morning and I came on here to post about Jens Voigt yesterday, but I didn't want to spoil it for those watching the evening coverage.

I hope he is ok. They are saying fractured right cheekbone and a concussion. When I saw it happen, I thought it would have been much worse (broken hip, arm, collarbone). One of the camera motorcycles almost rode over him! He will definitely be missed by his team and Tour fans.

As far as the Lance ride yesterday, I was thinking at the time that Astana was trying to get a third guy into the Contador group to try to "out-number" the Schleck brothers (Contador & Kloden vs. Frank & Andy --> Contador, Kloden, Armstrong vs. Frank & Andy). But then I remembered that Jens was in the early breakaway and would probably wait for the group to even the odds. It was just a good thing that Lance got up there or the tables may have been reversed. I didn't think that yesterday's stage was a good one for a split in the contenders though (neither is today for that matter).

[BishopMVP]

My mistake on the Jens thing - I saw the fall before posting, just forgot about it.

Heroic ride today by Hushovd, and I guess Contador just needs to avoid crashing from here on out to win.

[WheelsVT]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

My mistake on the Jens thing - I saw the fall before posting, just forgot about it.

Heroic ride today by Hushovd, and I guess Contador just needs to avoid crashing from here on out to win.

Hushovd really showed everyone why he deserves the green jersey, and got the aggressive rider award for the day. Watching his descents was great. I heard during yesterday's coverage that everyone voted Hushovd as the best descender of the peleton next to Cancellara. He would need to be out of necessity to regain the lead group for the sprint. When he nearly crashed on a turn I knew someone behind would hit it. Sure enough "crash prone" Menchov didn't disappoint, and then he wrecks again on the slick white lines on the road.

Check Armstrong's tweet about Contador's attack on the final climb. There is no love lost there. During the live coverage they mentioned out the two have barely talked the whole tour. The attack only served to unhinge Kloden which ultimately cost him his GC spot. Contador has tried to play it off by saying he asked Kloden about attacking first and that it was his biggest regret on the day.

[DaddyTorgo]

so Contador is a prick? is that the general consensus?

guess so after his strange attack today that dropped Lance and Kloden in the standings. Douchebag.

[whomario]

what do you mean with strange attack ? He is the team leader and just has no business looking towards his teammates GC standing, Armstrong surely never did so in his prime, did he ?

Plus he´s done next to nothing helping his team captain (and yes, that´s what Contador has been assigned from the beginning) despite claiming to do so. Heck, he got Klöden helping him despite being only the 2nd guy on the team, that´s more than you could expect for him. How many 2nd guys had a strong GC rider helping them before ? Not many.

Seriously, Contador was less than 2 minutes ahead of a couple of very strong TT guys before the start. One flat tire or 2 or a bad day there and his lead is gone.
Plus he´s basically driving against his team coordinator at times it seems, him being Armstrong´s favourite guy and everything ... I mean, he sure doesn´t feel a lot of support in his own team i suppose.

Edit : I actually just noticed that i missed sth last stage while being away a few, when reading a couple reports on it it makes more sense now to accuse him of sth.
But my basic point stays still.
Anyone remember 2004 when he edged out Klöden in the finish despite being in the yellow jersey allready ?

Edit again : I am actually pretty sure that Contador did attack with the intent of dragging Klöden along. Afterall he (Klöden) looked very strong at that stage of the race, think he just hit a wall at the wors time. It´s realistic, too, as those things just happen in cycling, you never know how your body will react to an attack until it happens.
One shouldn´t allways assume the worst.

[whomario]

for anyone thinking they are over doping :

Di Luca Positive For CERA In Giro | Cyclingnews.com

Di Luca was 2nd in that Giro this year

[MIJB#19]

In other news, the Vuelta Espana will be mostly in Spain this year.



Back on topic: Contador and Kloden were clearly discussing before Contador attacked. Sure, in hindside it was a mistake to dump a teammate, but if the idea was to break one of the Schleck bros and to get to the finish together with Kloden, it made some sense. The goal for both teams clearly was to get rid of used-to-be-a-non-climber Wiggins.

[WheelsVT]

I agree that Contador has the short end of the stick. From his perspective he should be the unquestionable leader and this Lance Armstrong character comes back to a team where he has long time relationships with everyone. It seems everyone's been pulling against him, and since we don't speak Spanish and he's not good with the press it's hard to get excited about him or tie into his personal story.

Plus, I have to say that Bob Roll is not giving up on his LA praising EVER. They just keep looking for the positive spin on how he's going to make up time... perhaps to keep the majority of American audiences interested. I'm curious if or how much time he'll gain in the TT today. Perhaps he can step back on the podium. I do think that he may improve next year despite being a year older.

I'm sure the rumored split that almost happened before the Tour when Astana was short on funding will definitely happen after: Contador to a spanish team built around him backed by some F1 racer. Lance starts up a Nike/Livestrong/Trek team and brings Bruyneel and others over with him. Vino comes back and takes over an empty Astana team.

[MIJB#19]

By the way, my comment above wasn't meant as a jab at Wiggins. His performance has been amazing so far. Sure, he already was a world class tim trialist, but at the same time he never finished in, like, the top50 of a mountain stage in any full pro race before.

With the lack of performance from about the entire top10 of last year (aside from Frank Schleck), it's nice to have a surprise or two. Wiggins being the most notable.

[WheelsVT]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/arms...ursday-evening

Looks like I was wrong on the Livestrong-Nike sponsor.

[DaddyTorgo]

yeah, the rah-rah LA thing by Bob Roll is getting very tiresome, but i guess it's what they feel they need to keep the american audience.

[scooter]

Wheels - I have to disagree. Contador has always been the leader of Team Astana. He's got the 21 jersey. The team was set up to support him with some of the strongest riders in cycling. Lance came back and may have "thought" he could win again, but I don't think that was ever the main goal. He talked like he could be a contender (just like Levi did) but I don't think Johan thought he could win.

From Contador's perspective, having Lance on your team is a bit of a blessing and a curse. The curse being that he is going to get all the media attention. The blessing though is that he is going to get all the media attention and most of the attention of the peleton. Until the other riders knew what he was going to do, they had to mark him like a 7-time Tour winner. As a strategist, I think Johan tried to use that to his advantage.

Astana usually has at least one other rider with Contador on these climbs (Kloden). Lance is usually close behind. If Levi were still in the race, he would probably be there with Lance (or take Lance's place of marking the other GC contenders and Lance would be up with Contador and Kloden). They are there to support Contador, but more importantly they are there to win the Tour for their team.

[WheelsVT]

While the team was built around Contador, Lance didn't come back to be a lieutenant. The press certainly played up the tension on the team, but I think it's definitely there. Contador certainly wasn't the unquestioned leader going into the race and it wasn't until Sunday's stage that it was really decided... unless you're saying that he was always the leader and it was a clever move on Johan's part to allow the press to play it up as a team rivalry. Could be true. Then if Lance actually does blow everyone away it looks like Johan planned it that way from the start.

Team tactics of course are involved which is what made this race interesting since you have to support your teammates that are in the lead. Like you said the team goal is a win in Paris.

[WheelsVT]

http://www.teamradioshack.com/getready/

http://twitter.com/teamradioshack

Armstrong's new team for 2010.

[AlexB]

Wiggins should be set for a top 6 finish, but the podium is out of reach now. Just hope his legs still have two more days in them.

After Wednesday I wonder if he's regretting his comments on Tuesday that there was only one Schleck that was any good?

And what was Cadel Evans on about on Tuesday - 'as a professional cyclist' he couldn't discuss the reasons why he was not performing? Very strange.

[whomario]

actually i am pretty sure it is about his team and this is coder for "well, i can´t comment as i am under contract but just look at what the hell has been happening"
A friend of mine who is really into cycling (and visits cycling forums) told me that there´s some deep friction between Evans and his team for a while now which has gone way further in the weaks leading up to the tour and he basically is out there all by himself and isolated and that has taken a huge toll on him mentally. He is not the strongest mentally to begin with and then that ...
For Example his teammanagement apparently refused to organise practice for the Team Time Trial (and if you saw it, that was the train wreck of TTTs they had), his team manager has given Van den Broeck a free pass not to help him and basically do whatever he wants.

They also basically they convinced him to stay with promises that weren´t kept from the teams´s side.

A further quote :

Evans also hinted at discontent within his own team after Monday’s fifteenth stage, which Evans labeled the worst of his Tour de France career.

Asked after the race if he was ill, he said: "No, it's politics ... stress."

While he didn’t elaborate at the time, Evans told McGrory that his pre-race efforts to motivate his team had been unsuccessful.

“I made many suggestions, and voiced many opinions. Not much happened.”

Despite being Silence-Lotto’s team leader, Evans said the direction of the team is out of his control

“When it’s the whole team, I can say my suggestions and voice my opinion, but it’s the team direction and management that have to take the whole team together and take them out of their normal race programs.

“Go do a team time trial training camp or whatever. That I can’t organise”

Evans hints at team disharmony - Breaking News - Fox Sports


Fact is that Evans is not mentally strong and has a reputation as a moaner and whiner. Then add the fact that his teammanagement is pretty much universally acknowledged as highly incompetent and the squad is weak and you have problem. Then add things like that TTT incident and team order keeping the one capable helper away and you have a disaster.



Armstrong is really looking his age and also seems to suffer from the less-than-perfect preperation (broken collarbone). Looks bulkier than in his prime as well, maybe just didn´t get all that dry-workout-muscles into usable-muscles in time aft6er the 3 years off (hope you get what i mean, it´s just not sth you make up for just like that. If you are out of it 3 years your body changes, besides getting older)
Contador cemented his lead, Cancellara had a terrific TT and the Schlecks did OK (Fänck) to good (Andy) .

The GC now :

1	Alberto Contador Velasco (Spa) Astana	73:15:39
2	Andy Schleck (Lux) Team Saxo Bank	0:04:11
3	Lance Armstrong (USA) Astana	0:05:25
4	Bradley Wiggins (GBr) Garmin - Slipstream	0:05:36
5	Andreas Klöden (Ger) Astana	0:05:38
6	Fränk Schleck (Lux) Team Saxo Bank	0:05:59
7	Vincenzo Nibali (Ita) Liquigas	0:07:15
8	Christian Vande Velde (USA) Garmin - Slipstream	0:10:08
9	Mikel Astarloza Chaurreau (Spa) Euskaltel - Euskadi	0:12:38
10	Christophe Le Mevel (Fra) Française des Jeux	0:12:41
11	Vladimir Karpets (Rus) Team Katusha	0:13:36
12	Roman Kreuziger (Cze) Liquigas	0:14:08
13	Sandy Casar (Fra) Française des Jeux	0:14:37
14	Carlos Sastre Candil (Spa) Cervelo Test Team	0:15:26
15	Rinaldo Nocentini (Ita) AG2R La Mondiale	0:15:27

2-6 will be hardly fought. Especially 3-6 are like 30 seconds

[MIJB#19]

I've heard different stuff from around Cadel Evans, really. VanDenBroeck has been told to be not riding for his own GC before the Tour de France, he was supposed to be Evans' side kickin te mountain stages. After Evans dropped back early in Tuesday's stage, there was a chance of plan. VDB was already in the escape and when Evans mentally threw the towel, mid-way that stage VanDenBroeck received a go-ahead on taking his own chances.

Two days later Evans gets bad words from the team owner (the interview was braodcasted on Belgian tv), about him being over the top. Until this Tour Evans has (Contador aside) been the most consistent GC rider in the peloton over the last 4 or so years. And after one bad week he's written off in favor of some, yet to prove he's top10 Tour quality rider that gets good press because he's got the nationality of the team sponsor.

Evans has clearly been the best rider on that team for GC work over the past years, I think it showed a serious lack of respect to write a guy off after what happened the past week. VanDenBroeck has an okay resume, but he's yet to prove he can handle the pressure of being the #1 guy. Evans finished 2nd twice in Le Tour, that should be enough proof he can handle that.

Sure, everybody prefers a winner over an always-second type, but for now Evans is still their best shot at a top5 finish in 2010.

[MIJB#19]

You might want to reconsider your source, whomario, your quoted text is referring to 'monday's fifteenth stage'. The Tour had a rest day on Monday.

[whomario]

everyone of you guys that is allready awake : Get your ass to the TV, as today is Le Mont Ventoux stage and it might kick ass. Just an epic climb of 21 KM with 7,6% gradient. All that in scorching summer sun ...

[Radii]

Originally Posted by whomario

everyone of you guys that is allready awake : Get your ass to the TV, as today is Le Mont Ventoux stage and it might kick ass. Just an epic climb of 21 KM with 7,6% gradient. All that in scorching summer sun ...

I need a nap just pondering other people going up that hill.

[MIJB#19]

TV is on alright. Flemish/Belgian that is, for the most professional coverage possible.

The finish looks like it'll be around 4:30-4:45 pm local time (10:30-10:45 am Eastern).

Spoiler

The peloton

should start climbing around 9:45 am Eastern.

[JonInMiddleGA]

PARIS -- Spaniard Mikel Astarloza, who finished 11th in the Tour de France, has been provisionally suspended following a positive out-of-competition test for the banned blood booster EPO, the International Cycling Union said on Friday.

"Earlier today, the UCI advised Spanish rider Mikel Astarloza that he has been provisionally suspended," the UCI said.

"The decision to provisionally suspend [Astarloza] was made in response to a report from the WADA accredited laboratory in Madrid indicating an adverse analytical finding of recombinant EPO in a urine sample collected from him at an out-of-competition test on 26 June 2009."

If the B sample is also positive, Astarloza, who rides for the Euskaltel Euskadi team, will face a two-year suspension.

On July 21, Astarloza won the Tour's 16th stage, a mountain stage that crossed the 8,113 foot-high Grand-Saint-Bernard pass on the Swiss-Italian border. "This is the biggest day of my career," he said after the victory.