Werewolf XLVI - Sun And Shadow (Game Thread) - Game Over! Cultists win! - Page 2

DaddyTorgo · 04-30-2007, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ntndeacon

I shoulda listened to you ...you werent a wolf after all. May the shadow stay away from you as well as me.

oh it's okay. that CR is a devious bastard. i just kept hoping you'd come back to your computer so i could point out what i noticed to you. ah well...it's just a game.

Peregrine · 04-30-2007, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianD

Anyone else think the back-to-back days at one member might be a tough condition to reach? At one member the shadow gets a 100% conversion. We would have to know about both of the last two shadow members to vote them out consecutively. Sounds like it could be tough.

It could be tough, but I put this in because otherwise it would be near-impossible to defeat the Shadow unless you ran out of people entirely. My idea with this is that if you're really suspicious of someone being that last Shadow, you can use some of your roles to keep an eye on them or keep them confined, and limit their chances to get someone that night.

Mustang · 04-30-2007, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peregrine

Also, just to clarify the roles and the way the Shadow works. There aren't specific Shadow roles, there's just the Shadow. It's like one spirit divided up among a bunch of people, like a hive mind.

Instead of Sheeple they are Sheedow...

Ah.. nevermind.

BrianD · 04-30-2007, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peregrine

It could be tough, but I put this in because otherwise it would be near-impossible to defeat the Shadow unless you ran out of people entirely. My idea with this is that if you're really suspicious of someone being that last Shadow, you can use some of your roles to keep an eye on them or keep them confined, and limit their chances to get someone that night.

That makes sense. I usually have to read the setup multiple times during the early days of the game to make the mechanics stick in my mind. I see now that there are defenses against conversion so while it may not be easy to get 2 days, it won't be impossible either.

Mustang · 04-30-2007, 11:32 AM

Although.. guess it is still possible to have it end pretty quick. If we got REALLY lucky and cleansed the initial Shadow person, he could tell us who he converted and then you block/protect vs that person tonight.

Unless I'm missing something yet again.

Lathum · 04-30-2007, 11:34 AM

Cultist checking in.

I also think a mass reveal is a horrible idea.

I do have a question, if it has been answered I apologize. If there is no shadow conversion at night do we find out about it as if there was a no kill in a typical WW game?

Peregrine · 04-30-2007, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mustang

Although.. guess it is still possible to have it end pretty quick. If we got REALLY lucky and cleansed the initial Shadow person, he could tell us who he converted and then you block/protect vs that person tonight.

Unless I'm missing something yet again.

I gave the Shadow a random reveal on Night 0, they don't know the other's identities, unless they choose to reveal them. It's still possible for a relatively quick ending though, or a long one. I'm not sure how it will play out.

Peregrine · 04-30-2007, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum

I do have a question, if it has been answered I apologize. If there is no shadow conversion at night do we find out about it as if there was a no kill in a typical WW game?

You find out the count of Shadow players every morning, so this should give you a pretty good idea if there was a conversion or not.

Peregrine · 04-30-2007, 11:38 AM

And I should have said this before, but today's Count is 2.

Lathum · 04-30-2007, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peregrine

You find out the count of Shadow players every morning, so this should give you a pretty good idea if there was a conversion or not.

ok. thanks.

I just want to throw this out there that I have a sleeping potion that I am considering using tonight. Lemme know what you all think because I think this could acomplish a couple of things.

1. If there is no conversion I possibly got lucky on a longshot. I realize this is a gamble but it could be worth it if we get a shadow early.

2. The person I used it on can confirm I used it on them and I can confirm they were my choice and we can start a loose COT.

KWhit · 04-30-2007, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum

2. The person I used it on can confirm I used it on them and I can confirm they were my choice and we can start a loose COT.

Not sure how that could start a COT.

Mustang · 04-30-2007, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peregrine

I gave the Shadow a random reveal on Night 0, they don't know the other's identities, unless they choose to reveal them. It's still possible for a relatively quick ending though, or a long one. I'm not sure how it will play out.

Ok. Looks like you covered those initial easy ending scenarios.

Lathum · 04-30-2007, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KWhit

Not sure how that could start a COT.

Because if there is a shadow conversion it would be a safe assumption the person I used it on is clean.

Lathum · 04-30-2007, 11:54 AM

I pretty much just figured out it is going to be next to impossible to form a COT this game.

Lathum · 04-30-2007, 11:55 AM

Is it just me or does this seem like an impossible game for the good guys to win ( which I am one) unless we win it very early?

KWhit · 04-30-2007, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum

I pretty much just figured out it is going to be next to impossible to form a COT this game.

Yep. It's going to be tough, since each shadow person can try to convert someone.

So if you put someone to sleep and there is a conversion, it doesn't mean the person you targeted is clean. It just means that they weren't the one to make that particular conversion.

hoopsguy · 04-30-2007, 11:59 AM

If we cleanse a Shadow, and they have names, then this becomes a very easy game for us to win.

If they keep quiet with each other, then there is a much greater chance that the Shadows take sub-optimal actions each night. I guess it depends, to some extent, on how they are able to communicate. That was not spelled out in the rules, but it sounds like some method outside of FOFC is available.

hoopsguy · 04-30-2007, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KWhit

Not sure how that could start a COT.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum

Because if there is a shadow conversion it would be a safe assumption the person I used it on is clean.

Additionally it could help with tracking night actions - if Lathum is dropping a potion on someone then we know what his night action is (assuming he can't use both a magic item and a role ability in the same phase).

KWhit · 04-30-2007, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Additionally it could help with tracking night actions - if Lathum is dropping a potion on someone then we know what his night action is (assuming he can't use both a magic item and a role ability in the same phase).

That I agree with. I just get nervous when people start typing COT so early.

I'm just not a very trusting fellow.

Lathum · 04-30-2007, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KWhit

So if you put someone to sleep and there is a conversion, it doesn't mean the person you targeted is clean. It just means that they weren't the one to make that particular conversion.

I understand but at least it impoves the odds of them being clean.

The problem I see is any COT is impossible. One of the most powerfull moves in a WW game is use a conversion on someone who is trusted/ vouched for. The problem I see is someone can never be vouched for because they could have been converted at some time AFTER they were vouched for. I just don't see a way around this.

hoopsguy · 04-30-2007, 12:12 PM

Agree with your last post, Lathum. I think our best opportunity here is to catch someone with their hand in the cookie jar - either seer view or some type of action view/block. From there, we hope to get some kind of a beginning roadmap to follow. If we snag the initial guy and bring him back to the cult then we certainly get him and his Night 0 target.

DaddyTorgo · 04-30-2007, 12:12 PM

nah. i totally think this game can be won. and i intend to win it dammit.

Tyrith · 04-30-2007, 12:16 PM

There is an 18 day clock on the bad guys winning, because it's _uncleansed_ bad guys.

hoopsguy · 04-30-2007, 12:26 PM

Tyrith, the bad guys only need a majority on the uncleansed if I'm remembering the rules correctly. Which could happen a lot quicker than 18 days, even with a max of one conversion per day.

Tyrith · 04-30-2007, 12:28 PM

Mhm. But it's not an endless cycle of conversions and us trying to catch them at conversions. There will be a narrowing of the playing field like normal WW, it's just there will be more commentators left alive to discuss it.

Lathum · 04-30-2007, 12:29 PM

So can anyone see a way that someone can ever be trusted?

SnDvls · 04-30-2007, 12:30 PM

It's winnable, but we have to play our cards correctly and wisely to do it.

Lathum · 04-30-2007, 12:33 PM

So do you guys think I should put someone randomly to sleep tonight?

Mustang · 04-30-2007, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum

So can anyone see a way that someone can ever be trusted?

Why wouldn't you trust someone that was cleansed? At that point, they wouldn't want the Shadow to win because, if they did, I'd assume they weren't cleansed really...

path12 · 04-30-2007, 12:38 PM

Just checking in -- came to work to find a big issue that needs taking care of. I'll be around in awhile after I get that done.

Lathum · 04-30-2007, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mustang

Why wouldn't you trust someone that was cleansed? At that point, they wouldn't want the Shadow to win because, if they did, I'd assume they weren't cleansed really...

can someone be re-converted after they were cleansed?

Mustang · 04-30-2007, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum

can someone be re-converted after they were cleansed?

Didn't think of asking this.. just assumed but, if someone can be reconverted. Oy...

KWhit · 04-30-2007, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum

So do you guys think I should put someone randomly to sleep tonight?

I don't know. I fear that you might accidently put an important person to sleep and we'd lose their ability for the night.

Chief Rum · 04-30-2007, 12:47 PM

So did anyone give any thought to my role/item classification idea? Seems like it was ignored. Do you all think that is a bad idea? Personally, with so much information in the mechanics of this game, I think we could really use something like that to wrap our heads around the tools and abilities we have available to us.

Speaking of bad ideas, mass-revealing == very bad, IMO. And the game Barkeep is referring to--he was a wolf. Not saying he is now, or advocating he should be considered suspicious for the suggestion; just noting it was a wolf who proposed that strategy in that game. I'm not too keen on strategies originally proposed by wolves, if you know what I mean.

I have one of the magical roles above, but no magic item. I also have a mundane role ability. Does everyone have one of those?

I will be leaving soon, so I am afraid I will have to vote early. It will be a random vote with pretty much no evidence behind it, of course.

Chief Rum · 04-30-2007, 12:49 PM

Peregrine, correct me if I am wrong. Shadow does not get the use of our magic roles, correct? When you convert to Shadow, you can't use your magical roles. I think I read that. Or taking it one step further, you are stripped of your magical roles when you join Shadow.

I would assume items can still be used, and mundane role abilities.

Mustang · 04-30-2007, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I have one of the magical roles above, but no magic item. I also have a mundane role ability. Does everyone have one of those?

Subtle way to fish for information...

SnDvls · 04-30-2007, 12:53 PM

Chief- I like the classification idea, just haven't been able to delve into the roles and items much, but I'll give it a shot for sure.

DaddyTorgo · 04-30-2007, 12:55 PM

chief...classification sounds good.

and i don't think barkeep's Shadow. Second-level analysis would suggest that Shadow would not be the one to initiate the idea of mass role-reveal, but would rather fall somewhere in the middle of the pack agreeing with it, so as not to draw attention.

Chief Rum · 04-30-2007, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mustang

Subtle way to fish for information...

Heh heh nothing sneaky here. I have a mundane role ability. Reading the mechanics, it seems likely to me there are other such mundane role abilities out there, likely some repeats, with everyone having one. The mechanics point out that cleansing doesn't remove these abilities.

Not asking for everyone to say what their mundane ability is, just noting is another aspect of the game we shouldn't ignore, and I think we should consider at least seeing if everyone has one of those, or if it's just a select few.

DaddyTorgo · 04-30-2007, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Heh heh nothing sneaky here. I have a mundane role ability. Reading the mechanics, it seems likely to me there are other such mundane role abilities out there, likely some repeats, with everyone having one. The mechanics point out that cleansing doesn't remove these abilities.

Not asking for everyone to say what their mundane ability is, just noting is another aspect of the game we shouldn't ignore, and I think we should consider at least seeing if everyone has one of those, or if it's just a select few.

i think i know what you're talking about in terms of mundane roles that cleansing doesn't remove, and if so i know i clearly have them.

Swaggs · 04-30-2007, 01:06 PM

Hey guys, just checking in real quick.

I will be back in about 45 minutes to discuss for a bit, but it looks like I am going to have to vote fairly early if we are going with a 7:30 PM deadline.

Chief Rum · 04-30-2007, 01:31 PM

Note: This is a pointless vote with nothing behind it. I make it because I need to vote, and I have to leave for the day.

VOTE JOE

In a previous life, he was GWB. I voted for that guy twice, so I figure once more won't hurt.

I have heard the reasoning for voting Punishment/Mercy, and agree we need Punishment. I am hesitant to vote Punishment when I am voting for someone I don't have any evidence against and essentially picked at random.

But I will, on the belief that you all will find candidates who may be deserving of Punishment, and that it will not be Joe (and if it is, I figure you will have a pretty good reason).

VOTE PUNISHMENT

Tyrith · 04-30-2007, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

chief...classification sounds good.

and i don't think barkeep's Shadow. Second-level analysis would suggest that Shadow would not be the one to initiate the idea of mass role-reveal, but would rather fall somewhere in the middle of the pack agreeing with it, so as not to draw attention.

I think at this point BK has pressed for the mass role reveal enough times that him calling for it is independent of his allegiance.

DaddyTorgo · 04-30-2007, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrith

I think at this point BK has pressed for the mass role reveal enough times that him calling for it is independent of his allegiance.

lol

Lathum · 04-30-2007, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrith

I think at this point BK has pressed for the mass role reveal enough times that him calling for it is independent of his allegiance.

I would agree with this, He is at the point where if he didn't call for it people would suspect him.

Lathum · 04-30-2007, 01:49 PM

OK, gotta get things rolling.

VOTE IMTHECREW

He was bad the last game and played the same way. Checked in and didn't say a word

Lathum · 04-30-2007, 01:52 PM

VOTE PUNISHMENT

DaddyTorgo · 04-30-2007, 01:55 PM

i think i'm pretty much taking off from now till 6pm or so. i have a job interview in an hour and a half, gonna grab lunch first, then after that i take the train home. if dinner is ready then i probably won't be on till right around deadline, so i will check in from my phone, on the train on the way home if nowhere else. but i figure it's going to be largely random D1 votes anyways.

Swaggs · 04-30-2007, 02:09 PM

Alright... I am caught up.

I think mass role reveal is not really beneficial yet. One, we are not dead if we are cleansed, so we can always call someone elses bluff if they claim the role we once had. Two, does it really help us out a shadow member on day 1, when no one has had the opportunity to execute a night action?

Mr. Wednesday · 04-30-2007, 02:11 PM

I'm in.

I would like to offer a correction to something Mustang said... there's a "sorceror" role, the Artificer, who we cannot trust even if cleansed.

I have a magic role, which (as per usual) I will reveal only when appropriate.

04-30-2007, 11:32 AM	#55
Mustang Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Wisconsin	Although.. guess it is still possible to have it end pretty quick. If we got REALLY lucky and cleansed the initial Shadow person, he could tell us who he converted and then you block/protect vs that person tonight. Unless I'm missing something yet again. __________________ You, you will regret what you have done this day. I will make you regret ever being born. Your going to wish you never left your mothers womb, where it was warm and safe... and wet. i am going to show you pain you never knew existed, you are going to see a whole new spectrum of pain, like a Rainboooow. But! This rainbow is not just like any other rainbow, its...

04-30-2007, 12:38 PM	#80
path12 Coordinator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Seattle, WA	Just checking in -- came to work to find a big issue that needs taking care of. I'll be around in awhile after I get that done. __________________ We have always been at war with Eastasia.

04-30-2007, 01:06 PM	#91
Swaggs Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000	Hey guys, just checking in real quick. I will be back in about 45 minutes to discuss for a bit, but it looks like I am going to have to vote fairly early if we are going with a 7:30 PM deadline. __________________ DOWN WITH HATTRICK!!! The RWBL Are you reading In The Bleachers?

04-30-2007, 02:09 PM	#99
Swaggs Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000	Alright... I am caught up. I think mass role reveal is not really beneficial yet. One, we are not dead if we are cleansed, so we can always call someone elses bluff if they claim the role we once had. Two, does it really help us out a shadow member on day 1, when no one has had the opportunity to execute a night action? __________________ DOWN WITH HATTRICK!!! The RWBL Are you reading In The Bleachers?

04-30-2007, 02:11 PM	#100
Mr. Wednesday Pro Starter Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: South Bend, IN	I'm in. I would like to offer a correction to something Mustang said... there's a "sorceror" role, the Artificer, who we cannot trust even if cleansed. I have a magic role, which (as per usual) I will reveal only when appropriate. __________________ Hattrick - Brays Bayou FC (70854) / USA III.4 Hockey Arena - Houston Aeros / USA II.1 Thanks to my FOFC Hattrick supporters - Blackout, Brillig, kingfc22, RPI-fan, Rich1033, antbacker, One_to7, ur_land, KevinNU7, and TonyR (PM me if you support me and I've missed you)

04-30-2007, 11:34 AM	#56
Lathum Favored Bitch #1 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: homeless in NJ	Cultist checking in. I also think a mass reveal is a horrible idea. I do have a question, if it has been answered I apologize. If there is no shadow conversion at night do we find out about it as if there was a no kill in a typical WW game?

04-30-2007, 11:38 AM	#59
Peregrine Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Cary, NC	And I should have said this before, but today's Count is 2.

04-30-2007, 11:54 AM	#64
Lathum Favored Bitch #1 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: homeless in NJ	I pretty much just figured out it is going to be next to impossible to form a COT this game.

04-30-2007, 11:55 AM	#65
Lathum Favored Bitch #1 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: homeless in NJ	Is it just me or does this seem like an impossible game for the good guys to win ( which I am one) unless we win it very early?

04-30-2007, 11:59 AM	#67
hoopsguy General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Chicago	If we cleanse a Shadow, and they have names, then this becomes a very easy game for us to win. If they keep quiet with each other, then there is a much greater chance that the Shadows take sub-optimal actions each night. I guess it depends, to some extent, on how they are able to communicate. That was not spelled out in the rules, but it sounds like some method outside of FOFC is available.

04-30-2007, 12:12 PM	#71
hoopsguy General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Chicago	Agree with your last post, Lathum. I think our best opportunity here is to catch someone with their hand in the cookie jar - either seer view or some type of action view/block. From there, we hope to get some kind of a beginning roadmap to follow. If we snag the initial guy and bring him back to the cult then we certainly get him and his Night 0 target.

04-30-2007, 12:12 PM	#72
DaddyTorgo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Massachusetts	nah. i totally think this game can be won. and i intend to win it dammit.

04-30-2007, 12:16 PM	#73
Tyrith College Starter Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Houston, TX	There is an 18 day clock on the bad guys winning, because it's _uncleansed_ bad guys.

04-30-2007, 12:26 PM	#74
hoopsguy General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Chicago	Tyrith, the bad guys only need a majority on the uncleansed if I'm remembering the rules correctly. Which could happen a lot quicker than 18 days, even with a max of one conversion per day.

04-30-2007, 12:28 PM	#75
Tyrith College Starter Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Houston, TX	Mhm. But it's not an endless cycle of conversions and us trying to catch them at conversions. There will be a narrowing of the playing field like normal WW, it's just there will be more commentators left alive to discuss it.

04-30-2007, 12:29 PM	#76
Lathum Favored Bitch #1 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: homeless in NJ	So can anyone see a way that someone can ever be trusted?

04-30-2007, 12:30 PM	#77
SnDvls Pro Starter Join Date: Jul 2001	It's winnable, but we have to play our cards correctly and wisely to do it.

04-30-2007, 12:33 PM	#78
Lathum Favored Bitch #1 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: homeless in NJ	So do you guys think I should put someone randomly to sleep tonight?

04-30-2007, 12:47 PM	#84
Chief Rum Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Where Hip Hop lives	So did anyone give any thought to my role/item classification idea? Seems like it was ignored. Do you all think that is a bad idea? Personally, with so much information in the mechanics of this game, I think we could really use something like that to wrap our heads around the tools and abilities we have available to us. Speaking of bad ideas, mass-revealing == very bad, IMO. And the game Barkeep is referring to--he was a wolf. Not saying he is now, or advocating he should be considered suspicious for the suggestion; just noting it was a wolf who proposed that strategy in that game. I'm not too keen on strategies originally proposed by wolves, if you know what I mean. I have one of the magical roles above, but no magic item. I also have a mundane role ability. Does everyone have one of those? I will be leaving soon, so I am afraid I will have to vote early. It will be a random vote with pretty much no evidence behind it, of course.

04-30-2007, 12:49 PM	#85
Chief Rum Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Where Hip Hop lives	Peregrine, correct me if I am wrong. Shadow does not get the use of our magic roles, correct? When you convert to Shadow, you can't use your magical roles. I think I read that. Or taking it one step further, you are stripped of your magical roles when you join Shadow. I would assume items can still be used, and mundane role abilities.

04-30-2007, 12:53 PM	#87
SnDvls Pro Starter Join Date: Jul 2001	Chief- I like the classification idea, just haven't been able to delve into the roles and items much, but I'll give it a shot for sure.

04-30-2007, 12:55 PM	#88
DaddyTorgo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Massachusetts	chief...classification sounds good. and i don't think barkeep's Shadow. Second-level analysis would suggest that Shadow would not be the one to initiate the idea of mass role-reveal, but would rather fall somewhere in the middle of the pack agreeing with it, so as not to draw attention.

04-30-2007, 01:31 PM	#92
Chief Rum Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Where Hip Hop lives	Note: This is a pointless vote with nothing behind it. I make it because I need to vote, and I have to leave for the day. VOTE JOE In a previous life, he was GWB. I voted for that guy twice, so I figure once more won't hurt. I have heard the reasoning for voting Punishment/Mercy, and agree we need Punishment. I am hesitant to vote Punishment when I am voting for someone I don't have any evidence against and essentially picked at random. But I will, on the belief that you all will find candidates who may be deserving of Punishment, and that it will not be Joe (and if it is, I figure you will have a pretty good reason). VOTE PUNISHMENT

04-30-2007, 01:49 PM	#96
Lathum Favored Bitch #1 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: homeless in NJ	OK, gotta get things rolling. VOTE IMTHECREW He was bad the last game and played the same way. Checked in and didn't say a word

04-30-2007, 01:52 PM	#97
Lathum Favored Bitch #1 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: homeless in NJ	VOTE PUNISHMENT

04-30-2007, 01:55 PM	#98
DaddyTorgo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Massachusetts	i think i'm pretty much taking off from now till 6pm or so. i have a job interview in an hour and a half, gonna grab lunch first, then after that i take the train home. if dinner is ready then i probably won't be on till right around deadline, so i will check in from my phone, on the train on the way home if nowhere else. but i figure it's going to be largely random D1 votes anyways.

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