Making the hurrican relief effort a racial issue

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

In the case of New Orleans, worst-case was just east, because the water was pushed into the river, then around into Lake Pontchartrain, then down over the levees, as the hurricane passed. East provided the most flooding.

Ah, I forgot about New Orleans' unique topography. Makes sense to me.

[Deattribution]

The only reason Kanye 'stood up and spoke' is cause he has a new cd out, and this will get him lots of media face time... period.

[JW]

Sorry I made some posts and ran. I know that is not good internet forum argument form. I actually had some grilling to do and football to watch, and I'm not really interested in a tit-for-tat argument anyway. Well, maybe the tit part.

A few more things.

There has been lots of discussion locally about responsibilities here. And since some think racism was involved, I think it is important to point out that the evacuation of New Orleans and immediate actions in the aftermath of the hurricane were the responsibility of Governor Blanco and Mayor Nagin. Mayor Nagin is black. Governor Blanco is a liberal Democrat elected narrowly thanks in large part to the black vote. I do not think they bungled the evacuation and immediate relief actions due to racism. Perhaps I am wrong.

Here are a few facts. Here is a link to the hurricane evacuation plan for the state.

http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/plans...pplement1a.pdf

Here are the governor's responsibilities.

"Governor:
a. Proclaim a State of Emergency.
b. Issue supplementary declarations and orders, as the situation
requires.
c. Authorize and direct the use of State government personnel and
other resources to deal with the emergency.
d. Authorize and direct the authorities of non-risk parishes to
coordinate the opening and operation of shelters with DSS in
conjunction with ARC, and to lend all possible assistance to the
evacuation and shelter effort.
e. Request Federal government assistance as needed."

Many in Louisiana think Gov. Blanco did not live up to her responsibilities.

Meanwhile, here is an excerpt from the evacuation plan.

"The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles.
School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles and vehicles
provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation
for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in
evacuating."

Neither Mayor Nagin or Gov. Blanco organized any buses for evacuation before the hurricane even though buses were available. It would have been very difficult to pull off, though, considering the short time frame involved.

Here is a link to a picture of some of the school buses in New Orleans after the hurricane.

http://www.junkyardblog.net/images/NO-buses.jpg

Here is another link, to the story announcing the mandatory evacuation of New Orleans.

http://www.nola.com/weblogs/print.ss...int074564.html

"New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin called for a first-ever mandatory evacuation of the city this morning, saying that Hurricane Katrina’s devastating power may well create the sort of cataclysmic damage that residents have long worried that a killer storm could cause in a city that lies mostly below sea level.

“I wish I had better news, but we’re facing the storm most of us have feared,” said Nagin, flanked by city and state officials, including Gov. Kathleen Blanco. “This is very serious. This is going to be an unprecedented event. ”

Nagin said Katrina’s “awesome” winds are likely to create storm surges that overwhelm the city’s system of levees, causing water to pour into lower-lying areas. Blanco said the water could get as high as 20 feet in places.

The city has 30 boats at its disposal, the mayor said.

The governor also said that President Bush had telephoned shortly before the 9:30 a.m. press conference began. She said Bush said he was “very concerned about the storm’s impact” and urged Blanco and Nagin to order the evacuation."

A couple of things to note. Both Nagin and Blanco predicted the flooding the day before the hurricane struck.

Note also that President Bush called before the news conference to urge Blanco and Nagin to order the mandatory evacuation.

What does any of that have to do with racism? It isn't always about race.

I might also point out that the good people of devastated St. Bernard and Plaquemines parishes have received virtually no state or federal aid yet. I don't think that has anything to do with the fact that many of them are white.

My opinion remains that the relief effort was bungled in the first days, primarily by Gov. Blanco, but with mistakes also made by Mayor Nagin, despite his great effort to get help to his city. I also think President Bush and other federal officials share in the blame. But I think it is absurd to argue that racism played a role in the decisions made by anyone involved in the relief effort.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by Deattribution

The only reason Kanye 'stood up and spoke' is cause he has a new cd out, and this will get him lots of media face time... period.

Better not hope it backfires like it did the Dixie Chicks "stood up and spoke".

[Dutch]

When it comes to politics, I wish more actors and musicians would "sit down and shut up".

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Better not hope it backfires like it did the Dixie Chicks "stood up and spoke".

Consider his target audience compared to the Dixie Chicks' target audience.

[Franklinnoble]

[Hurst2112]

Thanks to Buc for making it something that I can understand.

[Antmeister]

I really don't see why people are getting bent out of shape over this and making it seem as this is going to be a huge issue. I recall JoninMiddleGA predicting that this will be on the scale of what occured in the 60s. I don't think so This doesn't even come close to the division in the OJ Simpson trial.

So why is anyone surprised that Jesse Jackson sprung up? He always loves to stir up a controversial debate that is more often than not true. I really tire of these threads because people somehow think that Jesse Jackson is a representative of the feelings and attitudes of black people across the country. Believe me, he does not represent a majority of us,

If Colin Powell were to come out and say this, then I can see why you get bent out of shape because more people across the board tend to respect him, but Jesse Jackson has been doing this crap for decades.

And it also shouldn't surprise you that the media focuses on this issue. Of course they are. It makes headlines, makes for some ridiculous debates, sells newspapers, etc. If you watch any interviews with a majority of black Democrat leaders, you will see that they are trying to squelch this theory that is a race issue. In fact they are more angry with either FEMA and/or the governor of Louisiana. But of course, we would rather talk about Jesse Jackson who everyone knows is trying to get airtime for himself.

So why do you wonder that the media is focusing on New Orleans. Its the same theory, it makes for great news. More of a population than the other cities, more potential to lead to more controversial stories, etc. On 9/11, I don't remember seeing as many stories for the other two planes (one that hit the Pentagon, and one that the passengers took over). That's because the media tends to focus on where the most tragedy lies. This should not be a surprise. While I realize there are other areas that were hit much harder than New Orleans, the potential for tragedy was way great due to the amount of people. It seems to always be a numbers game.

Just like most of the problems Jesse Jackson gets involved with, this will slowly die as people lose interest. This always happens. I doubt you will even see many debates in this thread regarding Jesse Jackson.

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by JW

That's okay. I'm not going to argue with him any longer. I don't have time for his hateful politics. I'm through with it and have better things to do.

JW, try not to be so closed minded. You're projecting Jesse Jackson's views on to me. All I said was that there are some people that are racist, and there are some things that are racially motivated, and people are shocked -- shocked! -- that I could say such a thing. Even up north here, all the black people I know feel racism, and most of the people in general that I know make racist comments fairly frequently. Guess what guys, racism DOES exist in this country to a large extent. We had presidential canditates running on segregation platforms just 40 years ago. It's obvious that most people think less about suffering Africans and Muslims than about suffering Europeans, it's only natural to care more for those that resemble yourself.

I really have no idea why the federal and even state response was so bad to this disaster. I'm not going to just dismiss something because Jesse Jackson says it. I'd bet on general incompetance over anything else, but who knows?

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

You know, I am really getting pissed off at the "slow response time due to race/class" argument. Don't they know how long it take to do anything logistically on a decent scale?...So tell me why are people thinking everything should have materialized there on Tuesday or even Wednesday?

Because according to the MSM:

Originally Posted by Washington Post

As reports continued of famished and dehydrated people isolated across the Gulf Coast, angry questions were pressed about why the military has not been dropping food packets for them -- as was done in Afghanistan, Bosnia and in the aftermath of the Asian tsunami.

Bill Wattenburg, a consultant for the University of California Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory and one of the designers of the earlier food drop programs, said that he has lobbied the administration and the military to immediately begin something similar. He said he was told that the military was prepared to begin, but that it was awaiting a request from FEMA.

Originally Posted by AP

Several states ready and willing to send National Guard troops to the rescue in hurricane-ravaged New Orleans didn't get the go-ahead until days after the storm struck — a delay nearly certain to be investigated by Congress.

New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson offered Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco help from his state's National Guard on Sunday, the day before Hurricane Katrina hit Louisiana. Blanco accepted, but paperwork needed to get the troops en route didn't come from Washington until late Thursday.

In these particular cases, it seems to me like the feds screwed up and that help could have been there earlier.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

To me, it's outrageous to suggest that the network should get all the blame for this. Why they chose Kanye West, I don't know. Maybe he asked to be there, and they were trying to accomodate people whom they thought actually gave a damn about the situation instead of wanting to stand on a papier-mache soapbox. Perhaps whoever booked him was ignorant of West's music - I sure would be, as I've never heard it - but his lack of mental capacity would not get in the way of him reading a script. The network bookers' only crime was actually having faith that somebody could push their agenda aside long enough to not stand in the way of true compassion.

There will be people who will pull some donations back because of this, and that's a fucking shame. To blame the network for having a little faith in human beings shows just how little we expect people to do the right thing (or at least avoid doing the wrong thing).

No, I understand what you're saying. They figured he was prominent and that he could stick to the company line. I get it. He's popular and thought he'd "reach out" to a particular audience, given he's been featured in the media a lot because of his new CD and all that.

All I'm saying, is that anyone who knew what they were doing wouldn't have put him up there, because he's had a history of running his mouth, spewing whatever the heck he wants.

So while Kanye owns his words - and I am all but certain that it had NOTHING to do with selling CDs, he believes what he said - the network is accountable for putting him on there.

And if no one at NBC or whoever aired it has no one on staff that had listened to his music before, thus had no idea..well, that's part of a commentary on a whole different issue that I won't even broach because it's not topical.

But...yeah.

I completely get what you're saying though.

[NoMyths]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

And if no one at NBC or whoever aired it has no one on staff that had listened to his music before, thus had no idea..well, that's part of a commentary on a whole different issue that I won't even broach because it's not topical.

What...that NBC doesn't care about Black people?

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

You know, I am really getting pissed off at the "slow response time due to race/class" argument. Don't they know how long it take to do anything logistically on a decent scale? Here's an example:


"Installed by Tuesday". Now, I know there isn't the urgency in this as getting water but think about it. The storm was raging through the areas north of Louisiana on Tuesday. All roads in and around SE LA were closed. The airport was closed. Even if you had truckloads of water waiting to be delivered, it wasn't going to be until Wednesday till it gets there. The people inside the area couldn't get out (and certainly get around) and the people outside the area couldn't get in. Military troops can but it takes time to get them organized, equiped and transported - assuming you know what your orders are and where you are supposed to be.

So tell me why are people thinking everything should have materialized there on Tuesday or even Wednesday?

While I agree that this is not a race/class issue, I don't agree that things couldn't have been done faster. Think about, the news crews were in there well before any help arrived. And they drove in. In fact, you will see reporters from FOX, CNN, MSNBC mention the fact that they don't understand why no one else could get there when they easily did. Houston was able to organize efforts to bus people out of the Astrodome and yep you guessed it, they drove in there. So how was Houston able to organize efforts in less time than FEMA.

As a sidebar, I must say that I was actually proud of a few reporters who are actually in New Orleans. For once, they are speaking about the events and not trying politicize the situation. I mean, I have really seen some genuine emotions coming out of these guys and it doesn't seem to matter whether I was watching FOX or CNN. It's too bad that they won't report in that no nonesense style in the near future.

Now let's compare this to other disasters. In most of the hurricanes in Florida, people tended to cluster in a various areas since most of the structures were damaged, yet help was to most of them in 48 hours by setting up various strategic help stations where people could travel or provided transportation too. And this is with blocked roads a lot of times. In New Orleans, they had two major clusters where people gathered which was the Convention Center and the Superdome. This should have been more of a slam dunk than the other scenario.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

Even up north here, all the black people I know feel racism, and most of the people in general that I know make racist comments fairly frequently. ....it's only natural to care more for those that resemble yourself.

I have to say, this is some seriously messed up thought process.

I suggest you try meeting more people, you appear to have a very limited peer group.

I disagree entirely with you assertion that it is natural to do anything of the kind.

This post suggests, to me, that you have some serious race issues that you either don't see in yourself, or do and would rather try not to appear as you do. Either way, this post has more holes than a block of swiss at the national cheese-off.

Also, do you not believe that continually making racial comments leads one to BE a racist? Perhaps the people you know ought to try shelving the racist comments. IMO it could very well be their own comments painting their image of those around them, instead of those around them showing racism initially. Have you or those you know ever considered this?

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by RendeR

I have to say, this is some seriously messed up thought process.

I suggest you try meeting more people, you appear to have a very limited peer group.

I disagree entirely with you assertion that it is natural to do anything of the kind.

This post suggests, to me, that you have some serious race issues that you either don't see in yourself, or do and would rather try not to appear as you do. Either way, this post has more holes than a block of swiss at the national cheese-off.

Also, do you not believe that continually making racial comments leads one to BE a racist? Perhaps the people you know ought to try shelving the racist comments. IMO it could very well be their own comments painting their image of those around them, instead of those around them showing racism initially. Have you or those you know ever considered this?

I hate to burst your bubble because you were really on a roll, but what I talked about is backed up by large amounts of scientific research. Open up any social psychology book and look up social catagorization, outgroup homegeneity effects, ingroup favoratism, and social identity theory.

EDIT: Is caring more for one's own group natural? Yes. Should we strive to be better than that? Yes. But you can't ignore its effects, we don't yet live in Utopia.

[JW]

The white parish president of Jefferson Parish (just across the river from New Orleans) was just on Meet the Press. He broke down and cried while criticizing the lack of federal response. The majority of his constituents are white. This disaster and the failures in the relief effort have affected everyone in southeast Louisiana regardless of race. The good Cajun and other people of Plaquemines Parish are still without state or federal assistance today. It isn't about race, and the racists are those close-minded people who see everything in terms of race.

As for the failure of the response, I have to agree with Antmeister71. It could have been done much better. The first 72 hours were a diaster in itself. What could have been done? At the very least, soldiers could have been airlifted or trucked to the Superdome and Convention Center to establish 'safe' zones for those tens of thousands of people, and then water and emergency supplies could have been pushed to those safe zones. The zones could have been expanded from there. That is pretty much what the military did Friday after Gen. Honore took over the operation. It could have been done sooner.

Which leads to a major point that is being discussed in Louisiana. It was President Bush who Friday directed the military to take charge of the operation and ordered active duty troops in after witnessing the failures of the Louisiana state government, which was technically in charge. Gov. Blanco and the state failed miserably. It was also Bush who encouraged a mandatory evacuation Sunday. He did some things right. However, I think he sat too long while things developed without taking stronger control. Lives were lost during the week because no one from Bush down was willing to take firm control of the operation and do everything necessary to save lives. But the major failure was Gov. Kathleen Blanco. She was in charge of the effort for most of the week.

[Pacersfan46]

Holy ... wow.

As a fan of Kanye West's music .... I was offended by what he said enough. Actually seeing him saying it was horrendous. He was stuttering and sounded like a damn fool.

Wow, that .... wow.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

I hate to burst your bubble because you were really on a roll, but what I talked about is backed up by large amounts of scientific research. Open up any social psychology book and look up social catagorization, outgroup homegeneity effects, ingroup favoratism, and social identity theory.

Not going to comment on the rest of what's being said in this thread, but Mr. Biggles is 100% correct on the "it's only natural to care more for those that resemble yourself". It's been proven again and again and again (and acutally makes a lot of sense from an evolutionary stand point if you think about it for a moment). It's sounds science.

It is important to remember, however, that it is not always the case and it's not saying that you can't care for those that don't resemble yourself. Genes and such are not determinative, just part of the mix.

[SFL Cat]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Not going to comment on the rest of what's being said in this thread, but Mr. Biggles is 100% correct on the "it's only natural to care more for those that resemble yourself". It's been proven again and again and again (and acutally makes a lot of sense from an evolutionary stand point if you think about it for a moment). It's sounds science.

It is important to remember, however, that it is not always the case and it's not saying that you can't care for those that don't resemble yourself. Genes and such are not determinative, just part of the mix.

Holy shit. If I had realized that most of my money would be going to help out black folks instead of white folks, I wouldn't have made the largest contribution I've ever made to the Red Cross for disaster relief.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by Deattribution

The only reason Kanye 'stood up and spoke' is cause he has a new cd out, and this will get him lots of media face time... period.

It seems Kanye became exactly what he supposedly "hated" in this NBC special. Whether or not this (and his whole persona) is motivated by the idea of selling albums isn't material (although it certainly plays well to his audience).

The end result of what West did was play to his target audience (and probably get more sales for Kanye) while pissing off a vast majority of potential donars watching NBC (and hurting the amount of money going to the poor in New Orleans - you know, "his people").

I think someone ought to do a quick study on the amount of money Kanye's outburst cost the telethon and ask if Kanye would be willing to replace that with his own personal cash.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

Holy shit. If I had realized that most of my money would be going to help out black folks instead of white folks, I wouldn't have made the largest contribution I've ever made to the Red Cross for disaster relief.

That's not what I said at all. Either you didn't read the post or have no understanding of evolutionary biology. I probably should have gone into more detail as to what I was trying to say, but it's Sunday morning, still haven't had the coffee yet. But if your above post is your interpretation of what I said, you're sadly mistaken.

May I recommend this book. It's fantastically well-written, pretty funny at times, based on very sound science, and provides an interesting perspective on a wide variety of topics. It addresses what I was trying to get across above very nicely and perhaps in a manner in which even you could understand.

It's called: "The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature" by Stephen Pinker

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...books&n=507846

[Arles]

So, HB, it seems you are saying that people and our government can get past these "subconscious biases" when providing for disaster relief. If that's the case, what's the point of this discussion?

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Not going to comment on the rest of what's being said in this thread, but Mr. Biggles is 100% correct on the "it's only natural to care more for those that resemble yourself". It's been proven again and again and again (and acutally makes a lot of sense from an evolutionary stand point if you think about it for a moment). It's sounds science.

It is important to remember, however, that it is not always the case (Like when a big fucking hurricane rips apart one of the biggest and grandest cities in the USA.) and it's not saying that you can't care for those that don't resemble yourself. Genes and such are not determinative, just part of the mix.

Fixed it.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Arles

So, HB, it seems you are saying that people and our government can get past these "subconscious biases" when providing for disaster relief. If that's the case, what's the point of this discussion?

I was just supporting the theory Mr. Biggles pointed out and RenderR dismissed off hand. It's not an assumption. It's been proven over and over and over again. That was the only reason I chimed in here. Our evolutionary and genetic pre-dispotions can be (and most certainly are) overcome, but they do influence our decisions and reactions.

Again, this has nothing to do with this discussion of race and relief (as I don't think race is playing a role at all), but just the scientific soundness of the theory that Mr. Biggles pointed out.

I thought I was pretty clear in my original post when I said

"Not going to comment on the rest of what's being said in this thread, but Mr. Biggles is 100% correct on the 'it's only natural to care more for those that resemble yourself'."

[Dutch]

Your judgement and timing for picking what of Mr Biggleworth to agree with and in what thread are...well....piss poor.

You are basically the newscaster who says, "Well, I won't comment on everything Jesse Jackson says, but I will say this. He is correct in stating that most black folks in New Orleans are black."

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Fixed it.

Thanks for the fix, dude, but read my entire freaking post (all of them). Nothing I am discussing here has ANYTHING TO DO WITH the "big fucking hurricane rips apart one of the biggest and grandest cities in the USA"" at all. It was just about the science behind the theory.

I am just tryin' to give y'all some real book learnin'.
Again, I have said it once, and I will say it again "I do not believe race is at all factor in the relief effort." Man are you people dense sometimes.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Dutch

You are basically the newscaster who says, "Well, I won't comment on everything Jesse Jackson says, but I will say this. He is correct in stating that most black folks in New Orleans are black."

Not really. As I did comment on the issue at hand and have agreed with what JW said in his original post.

I guess, in some ways, yes my posts were a bit "off topic", but I am just trying to teach folks a little about something.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

I know science frightens some of you.

Well Lordy be, thankee, masta.

"Stand back! I've read a pychology book about science! None of you blue-collar white folk can help. Only I! Pychology Science Book Guy can save the day!"

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Well Lordy be, thankee, masta.

"Stand back! I've read a pychology book about science! None of you blue-collar white folk can help. Only I! Pychology Science Book Guy can save the day!"

Eh, I deserved that. That last comment was wholly unnecessary. My bad, lads.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Antmeister71

I really don't see why people are getting bent out of shape over this and making it seem as this is going to be a huge issue. I recall JoninMiddleGA predicting that this will be on the scale of what occured in the 60s. I don't think so This doesn't even come close to the division in the OJ Simpson trial.

So why is anyone surprised that Jesse Jackson sprung up? He always loves to stir up a controversial debate that is more often than not true. I really tire of these threads because people somehow think that Jesse Jackson is a representative of the feelings and attitudes of black people across the country. Believe me, he does not represent a majority of us,

If Colin Powell were to come out and say this, then I can see why you get bent out of shape because more people across the board tend to respect him, but Jesse Jackson has been doing this crap for decades.

And it also shouldn't surprise you that the media focuses on this issue. Of course they are. It makes headlines, makes for some ridiculous debates, sells newspapers, etc. If you watch any interviews with a majority of black Democrat leaders, you will see that they are trying to squelch this theory that is a race issue. In fact they are more angry with either FEMA and/or the governor of Louisiana. But of course, we would rather talk about Jesse Jackson who everyone knows is trying to get airtime for himself.

So why do you wonder that the media is focusing on New Orleans. Its the same theory, it makes for great news. More of a population than the other cities, more potential to lead to more controversial stories, etc. On 9/11, I don't remember seeing as many stories for the other two planes (one that hit the Pentagon, and one that the passengers took over). That's because the media tends to focus on where the most tragedy lies. This should not be a surprise. While I realize there are other areas that were hit much harder than New Orleans, the potential for tragedy was way great due to the amount of people. It seems to always be a numbers game.

Just like most of the problems Jesse Jackson gets involved with, this will slowly die as people lose interest. This always happens. I doubt you will even much any debates in this thread.

Well Said!

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Eh, I deserved that. That last comment was wholly unnecessary. My bad, lads.

I wasn't offended so no worries, I really just wanted to blast a college guy with the bookworm super hero line.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I wasn't offended so no worries, I really just wanted to blast a college guy with the bookworm super hero line.

Well, I'd still reccomend the book. It's well worth it.

P.S.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by Hurst2112

Thanks to Buc for making it something that I can understand.

You're welcome, simplistic as it was. It was what I got a graduate degree in.

Antmeister: I understand. I still go back to late Monday as I was watching the wwltv coverage non-stop. At the time, no one knew the impending disaster that was waiting to strike (where 80% of the city got flooded). Monday would have been good time to get things moving but there were no such calls from the State, and if I recall, Nagin was trying to assess the situation. In all, my criticism lies with immense bureaucratic power of the federal govt which can makes what happened fully expected. We have given them too much power, centralizing too much resources and let the politicians run things based on agendas.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Well, I'd still reccomend the book. It's well worth it.

P.S.

Ah, so you're science-pych book teaches propaganda technique's as well. I really should be angry at Louisiana Tech for not offering this class.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

You're welcome, simplistic as it was. It was what I got a graduate degree in.

I'm guessing that beats the Liberal Art degrees some others are spouting off about.

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

"Not going to comment on the rest of what's being said in this thread, but Mr. Biggles is 100% correct on the 'it's only natural to care more for those that resemble yourself'."

Skin color is a lousy way to divide people, at least on a genetic basis.

If it weren't for the fervent efforts of the professional race-baiters, it would never have occurred to me that this was a black hurricane and I was supposed to ignore its effects because the victims don't resemble me.

I would hope that nationalism is stronger than racism. But maybe what we're learning from the race-baiters is that it isn't. At least to them.

Here's an interesting test from the kind folks at Harvard. The race test can be fairly revealing.

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/demo/index.jsp

[Buccaneer]

If it weren't for the fervent efforts of the professional race-baiters, it would never have occurred to me that this was a black hurricane and I was supposed to ignore its effects because the victims don't resemble me.

Only if one thinks the hurricane affected New Orleans and no where else.

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by Arles

It seems Kanye became exactly what he supposedly "hated" in this NBC special. Whether or not this (and his whole persona) is motivated by the idea of selling albums isn't material (although it certainly plays well to his audience).

The end result of what West did was play to his target audience (and probably get more sales for Kanye) while pissing off a vast majority of potential donars watching NBC (and hurting the amount of money going to the poor in New Orleans - you know, "his people").

I think someone ought to do a quick study on the amount of money Kanye's outburst cost the telethon and ask if Kanye would be willing to replace that with his own personal cash.

While I agree that Kanye West chose a poor time to express his feelings, I am confused by the "his audience" comment. There are a number of people across the board in terms of race that listens to his music, myself included. The songs that get the most play from him are mostly positive songs that are inspirational and even religious.

That is why he graced the front cover of Time magazine because he was talking about issues rather than singing about pimps and hoes. I mean "Jesus Walks" (one of his popular songs) is a universal song to those who listen to rap.

And I had no problem with him saying "his people" and neither should anyone else. He was simply indentifying with the people of New Orleans. How is this different when a Russian American immigrant identifies himself with the people of Kosovo as "my people" or whenever Iraqi-American identifies himself with the plight of the Iraqis as "my people". Is it different because he is identifying himself with black Americans? I mean he is one.

I am just more disappointed that he had to take that time to state his opinions at a time when they were trying to raise money. It was a bad mistake he made and one that seemed to be driven by his emotions since it did appear that he was visibly shaken with anger. But regardless he probably lost a lot more fans than he could ever gain, so I don't see as this helping any CD sales.

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

...In all, my criticism lies with immense bureaucratic power of the federal govt which can makes what happened fully expected. We have given them too much power, centralizing too much resources and let the politicians run things based on agendas.

Totally agree.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Ah, so you're science-pych book teaches propaganda technique's as well. I really should be angry at Louisiana Tech for not offering this class.

Perhaps you should be, as you bit on that whole thing: hook, line and sinker.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

I hate to burst your bubble because you were really on a roll, but what I talked about is backed up by large amounts of scientific research. Open up any social psychology book and look up social catagorization, outgroup homegeneity effects, ingroup favoratism, and social identity theory.

EDIT: Is caring more for one's own group natural? Yes. Should we strive to be better than that? Yes. But you can't ignore its effects, we don't yet live in Utopia.

You are right about the science behind the idea, however, I wasn't talking scientificcal, I was assuming a more tolerant human approach.

My final paragraph still stands. From a decade of personal experience in a widely diverse peer group (US Navy) I can tell you that in the vast majority of situations that took on a "racist" reaction from one side or the other, the real racial difficulties came from those crying "racism" Not in fact from those they were accusing.

Your post states that YOUR peer group has issues with percieved racism. I'm simply trying to suggest it might be coming from that peer group, instead of from outside it. I still think you and your peers need to meet more people, diversify a bit, and perhaps your view might shift.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Antmeister71

While I agree that Kanye West chose a poor time to express his feelings, I am confused by the "his audience" comment. There are a number of people across the board in terms of race that listens to his music, myself included. The songs that get the most play from him are mostly positive songs that are inspirational and even religious.

That is why he graced the front cover of Time magazine because he was talking about issues rather than singing about pimps and hoes. I mean "Jesus Walks" (one of his popular songs) is a universal song to those who listen to rap.

And I had no problem with him saying "his people" and neither should anyone else. He was simply indentifying with the people of New Orleans. How is this different when a Russian American immigrant identifies himself with the people of Kosovo as "my people" or whenever Iraqi-American identifies himself with the plight of the Iraqis as "my people". Is it different because he is identifying himself with black Americans? I mean he is one.

I am just more disappointed that he had to take that time to state his opinions at a time when they were trying to raise money. It was a bad mistake he made and one that seemed to be driven by his emotions since it did appear that he was visibly shaken with anger. But regardless he probably lost a lot more fans than he could ever gain, so I don't see as this helping any CD sales.

It's nice to see someone trying to see good in anyone. I applaud your optimism. Unfortunately in this case, IMO, your optimism is sorely misplaced.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by RendeR

You are right about the science behind the idea.

That's all I was defending.

The rest of you too my statements way too far, but I'm not surprised and I'm probably most at fault for it. Like Dutch said, the timing to engage in a thoughtful discussion about this aspect of evolutionary biology was "piss poor."

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by RendeR

It's nice to see someone trying to see good in anyone. I applaud your optimism. Unfortunately in this case, IMO, your optimism is sorely misplaced.

Well in time we shall see. I don't think that his CD sells won't be anywhere near what is was before. And I could very well be wrong in regards to his reasoning, but it did seem to be that he was visibly upset and figured that this has to be his time to make a statement which was just in poor taste considering what he was there for.

And yeah, I am usually optimistic about some, but not all people. It is hard for me to be angry about someone who is highly religious and is trying to pass positive vibes through his music. I am not even religious, but it was something that I admired about his music. However it seems that he had some inner hatred that finally swelled to the top due to this tragedy.

[Arles]

West certainly has some crossover in his audience, but I don't think his outburst would hurt his sales. Still, it's certainly debatable on that front. The main point remains, though, and that's that West put his own agenda and personal wishes (bashing Bush) above the needs of the people in New Orleans. His comments certainly cost the red cross from a donation standpoint, not to mention the effort they've needed to spend to separate themselves from his comments. This has almost certainly hurt the goal of the Red cross getting help to people in need in New Orleans.

Plus, given how his dimeanor changed and how anxious he looked when Myers was talking, this was certainly something he rehearsed and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know going in that these comments would hurt the fundraising effort. In the end, it was a very selfish move by West.

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by Arles

...The main point remains, though, and that's that West put his own agenda and personal wishes (bashing Bush) above the needs of the people in New Orleans. His comments certainly cost the red cross from a donation standpoint, not to mention the effort they've needed to spend to separate themselves from his comments. This has almost certainly hurt the goal of the Red cross getting help to people in need in New Orleans...

I agree pretty much with this portion. He may have hurt some of the efforts. To what degree though, I am not sure. I am sure that people who wanted to donate will still donate regardless of what Kanye West said. I don't think he stopped people from giving because they didn't agree with his politics. They will just going to tune him out if he were to start his own relief efforts.

[JW]

A little more about the slow federal response to the hurricane in Louisiana. And since it is from the Washington Post, it must be true:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...301680_pf.html

Behind the scenes, a power struggle emerged, as federal officials tried to wrest authority from Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco (D). Shortly before midnight Friday, the Bush administration sent her a proposed legal memorandum asking her to request a federal takeover of the evacuation of New Orleans, a source within the state's emergency operations center said Saturday.

The administration sought unified control over all local police and state National Guard units reporting to the governor. Louisiana officials rejected the request after talks throughout the night, concerned that such a move would be comparable to a federal declaration of martial law. Some officials in the state suspected a political motive behind the request. "Quite frankly, if they'd been able to pull off taking it away from the locals, they then could have blamed everything on the locals," said the source, who does not have the authority to speak publicly.

A senior administration official said that Bush has clear legal authority to federalize National Guard units to quell civil disturbances under the Insurrection Act and will continue to try to unify the chains of command that are split among the president, the Louisiana governor and the New Orleans mayor.

Louisiana did not reach out to a multi-state mutual aid compact for assistance until Wednesday, three state and federal officials said. As of Saturday, Blanco still had not declared a state of emergency, the senior Bush official said.

This is why many people in La. think Blanco is primarily to blame for the slow response. My belief is that in Blanco had asked Bush, Gen. Honore and federal troops could have been on the ground in New Orleans Tuesday instead of Friday. People were urging her to do so. Mayor Nagin of New Orleans says that when he complained to Bush, Bush sent Honore (and the troops). Also at least some La. National Guard units were not mobilized until after Katrina struck. Blanco did not order a full pre-hurricane mobilization and the La. Guard was not poised for the relief effort like the Mississippi and Alabama Guard for example.

[Buccaneer]

What was she thinking, JW?

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Dutch

"Stand back! I've read a pychology book about science! None of you blue-collar white folk can help. Only I! Pychology Science Book Guy can save the day!"

I gotta say, I can't help but love the mental image. There's this guy walking around in a suit and glasses but then he sneeks into a phone book, rips off those to reveal a Red Wings jersey, jeans, and a dorky cape with "PSBG" on it. Then he jumps back out onto the sidewalk and brandishes a Psychology book for all the world to see and bow down to.

SI