Interesting "Is There a God?" Article from Comedian Ricky Gervais - Page 2

DanGarion · 12-23-2010, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tigercat

My problem with over the top atheists is that they often refuse to understand that true atheism (and not agnosticism or agnosticism under the false use of atheism) true atheism is a faith based belief. It is a belief that, "sure we don't know the real how-why of the big bang or what existed before the big bang, but we deem it to be completely random, isolated, and that all associations with it are absolutely without spiritual merit." Nothing wrong with believing that, but that belief is just as faith driven as the alternatives.

No I think it is they just don't believe in god or a god. It has nothing to do with the big bang.

jeff061 · 12-23-2010, 06:08 PM

There is no proof that there is no god. Thus actively believing there isn't one is faith driven. I think was the point.

Tigercat · 12-23-2010, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanGarion

No I think it is they just don't believe in god or a god. It has nothing to do with the big bang.

Doesn't everything in the universe have something to do with the big bang? Especially if an atheist is going to quote scientific origins, might as well go all the way back, eh? And the point with the big bang is, there is still plenty of mysteries to be had with it, making the set belief that all we see being all there is to see an article of faith.

jeff061 · 12-23-2010, 06:18 PM

Recent experiments with the LHC has hinted at the possibility that there was existence before the big bang. Science is the search of truth and no one pretends it provides the answer to everything. There are an infinite amount of unknowns out there and that's ok. I don't need everything to be explained away and if something is I want as many facts as possible backing it up.

So no, the big bang is not even remotely central to a religious debate. At least not from the Athiest/Agnostic side.

Toddzilla · 12-23-2010, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

can you explain your stance perhaps or are you just angered by the fact that he disagrees with your viewpoint?

Hi Marc! Welcome to FOFC. I'd like to introduce you to Jon.....

Toddzilla · 12-23-2010, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeff061

There is no proof that there is no god. Thus actively believing there isn't one is faith driven. I think was the point.

Technically speaking, you cannot prove a negative statement.

jeff061 · 12-23-2010, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

Technically speaking, you cannot prove a negative statement.

I know, I agree. Was just attempting to translate by parroting what I've been told so many times

.

Toddzilla · 12-23-2010, 06:30 PM

In my experience, the main difference between athiests and theists is the fact that the atheist has nothing to lose in the arguement, so they come with an inherent smugness knowing they can't be proven wrong.

If it is proven that there is a god, then what do atheists care? They're wrong and they move on, it's not like their entire life is build upon a premise that they need to act a certain way to please a higher power.

If it proven there is no god, then the believers suddenly see their entire belief system destroyed. To be sure, it's the theists that have everything to lose and nothing to gain.

sabotai · 12-23-2010, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

Technically speaking, you cannot prove a negative statement.

Right, which would make believing the negative statement an act of faith.

What I don't understand is why someone would have to assert that the big bang was random and isolated, and that our universe is all that there is, in order to be a "true atheist".

jeff061 · 12-23-2010, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

In my experience, the main difference between athiests and theists is the fact that the atheist has nothing to lose in the arguement, so they come with an inherent smugness knowing they can't be proven wrong.

If it is proven that there is a god, then what do atheists care? They're wrong and they move on, it's not like their entire life is build upon a premise that they need to act a certain way to please a higher power.

If it proven there is no god, then the believers suddenly see their entire belief system destroyed. To be sure, it's the theists that have everything to lose and nothing to gain.

Course problem being if an atheist is wrong, they are going to Hell or suffer whatever punishment that is part of the "correct" religion. I'd argue they have more to lose.

jeff061 · 12-23-2010, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sabotai

Right, which would make believing the negative statement an act of faith.

What I don't understand is why someone would have to assert that the big bang was random and isolated, and that our universe is all that there is, in order to be a "true atheist".

I've noticed a lot of religious think no matter what your beliefs are you must have a concrete belief when it comes to how things came to be. Thus the theory of evolution and the big bang become targets. Even though they are both nothing but theories subject to further scrutiny to prove, disprove or refine.

DanGarion · 12-23-2010, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeff061

There is no proof that there is no god. Thus actively believing there isn't one is faith driven. I think was the point.

*Opens window*
*Throws any form of logic out the window*

Ronnie Dobbs2 · 12-23-2010, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tarcone

Yeah, those were my immature days. It was pretty inflammatory. I apologize for that.

Well, I too see no difference between the two and have no problem with either. Respectfully stating your beliefs isn't inflammatory.

DanGarion · 12-23-2010, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

In my experience, the main difference between athiests and theists is the fact that the atheist has nothing to lose in the arguement, so they come with an inherent smugness knowing they can't be proven wrong.

If it is proven that there is a god, then what do atheists care? They're wrong and they move on, it's not like their entire life is build upon a premise that they need to act a certain way to please a higher power.

If it proven there is no god, then the believers suddenly see their entire belief system destroyed. To be sure, it's the theists that have everything to lose and nothing to gain.

I guess that is the issue I have with so many Christians. I believe in god, but I don't act a certain way to please a higher power, because if all I do is act that higher power would see right through it. I'm a good person and do good things because it's just the right thing to do. But hey what do I know.

DaddyTorgo · 12-23-2010, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanGarion

I guess that is the issue I have with so many Christians. I believe in god, but I don't act a certain way to please a higher power, because if all I do is act that higher power would see right through it. I'm a good person and do good things because it's just the right thing to do. But hey what do I know.

And see I'm an athiest and yet I am a good person and do good things because it's just the right thing to do.

We both win.

sabotai · 12-23-2010, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

And see I'm an athiest and yet I am a good person and do good things because it's just the right thing to do.

We both win.

Well, not if both of you burn in hell.

DanGarion · 12-23-2010, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

And see I'm an athiest and yet I am a good person and do good things because it's just the right thing to do.

We both win.

Exactly, and I fully support your freedom to think your own way. We all win.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sabotai

Well, not if both of you burn in hell.

Thread OVER!

DaddyTorgo · 12-23-2010, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanGarion

Exactly, and I fully support your freedom to think your own way. We all win.

Thread OVER!

Same here. My whole family is pretty religious - I'm clearly the outlier. But it doesn't bother me, and it doesn't bother them.

panerd · 12-23-2010, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeff061

Course problem being if an atheist is wrong, they are going to Hell or suffer whatever punishment that is part of the "correct" religion. I'd argue they have more to lose.

This is usually where the argument always ends up and it is kind of disappointing as I agree with what Molson said earlier that there is a lot of middle area that makes for really interesting discussion. However there are usually the two choices presented from above...

1) Atheist right: People die just like trees or bugs.
2) Atheist wrong: They go to hell

What about this other choice that seems a lot more feasible?

Atheist wrong: There is something after death that happens however there is not some powerful deity who will punish you forever for not going to church on Sunday or for being a Jew, Catholic, Muslim, scientologist, atheist, etc. No human being can possibly fathom what this afterlife is. Doesn't this seem far more likely than Jesus and God sitting there and sending you to hell because you happened to be raised Jewish, lived an honorable life, and then died without finding the Christian God? (insert any major religion in either blank) That seems to be the atheism I subscribe to. I have no idea what happens when I die but am 99.999% certain that none of the major world religions knows either. So I live my life with principles and ethics and think organized religion can do a lot of good but also can be very divisive and do a lot of horrible things.

DanGarion · 12-23-2010, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by panerd

This is usually where the argument always ends up and it is kind of disappointing as I agree with what Molson said earlier that there is a lot of middle area that makes for really interesting discussion. However there are usually the two choices presented from above...

1) Atheist right: People die just like trees or bugs.
2) Atheist wrong: They go to hell

What about this other choice that seems a lot more feasible?

Atheist wrong: There is something after death that happens however there is not some powerful deity who will punish you forever for not going to church on Sunday or for being a Jew, Catholic, Muslim, scientologist, atheist, etc. No human being can possibly fathom what this afterlife is. Doesn't this seem far more likely than Jesus and God sitting there and sending you to hell because you happened to be raised Jewish, lived an honorable life, and then died without finding the Christian God? (insert any major religion in either blank) That seems to be the atheism I subscribe to. I have no idea what happens when I die but am 99.999% certain that none of the major world religions knows either. So I live my life with principles and ethics and think organized religion can do a lot of good but also can be very divisive and do a lot of horrible things.

That pretty much sums up my usual way of thinking.

Dutch · 12-23-2010, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

Hmm...I guess that could be taken as me saying I'm atheist.

For the record, I'm Jewish. Chew on that one.

Aren't you really just a Jewish atheist?

Greyroofoo · 12-23-2010, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeff061

There is no proof that there is no god. Thus actively believing there isn't one is faith driven. I think was the point.

I believe that one season the Lions will make the playoffs, even though there is no evidence for it.

rowech · 12-23-2010, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by panerd

This is usually where the argument always ends up and it is kind of disappointing as I agree with what Molson said earlier that there is a lot of middle area that makes for really interesting discussion. However there are usually the two choices presented from above...

1) Atheist right: People die just like trees or bugs.
2) Atheist wrong: They go to hell

What about this other choice that seems a lot more feasible?

Atheist wrong: There is something after death that happens however there is not some powerful deity who will punish you forever for not going to church on Sunday or for being a Jew, Catholic, Muslim, scientologist, atheist, etc. No human being can possibly fathom what this afterlife is. Doesn't this seem far more likely than Jesus and God sitting there and sending you to hell because you happened to be raised Jewish, lived an honorable life, and then died without finding the Christian God? (insert any major religion in either blank) That seems to be the atheism I subscribe to. I have no idea what happens when I die but am 99.999% certain that none of the major world religions knows either. So I live my life with principles and ethics and think organized religion can do a lot of good but also can be very divisive and do a lot of horrible things.

Furthermore, I can't see a God saying it has to be this particular religion or you go to hell thus sacrificing how many people? I'd like to think if there is a God then two things are going on:

1. Religions are so different so they can appeal to many different people and ultimately religion evolves and changes as mankind becomes more advanced and that science is just going to lead to a new understanding of the same concepts and appeal to a different group of people. In addition to that, so many of the religions at their cores have so many similarities in their core beliefs as to how to live life.

2. God will give a second chance to anyone who didn't connect with anything at the end. Saying, here it is, here's your life...do you get the point now? Are you willing to accept me? If you say no again then you'e toast. If not, welcome in with everyone else.

I've been struggling with this a lot lately on a very personal level. I continue to believe wholeheartedly that there is a God and believe that every scientific discovery ADDS to that and doesn't take away for it. It's funny to me that the more complex people believe the universe is that somehow that disproves a God. To me, it does just the opposite.

panerd · 12-23-2010, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeff061

There is no proof that there is no god. Thus actively believing there isn't one is faith driven. I think was the point.

You could say there is no proof that there was no Thor but I think most of us realize it's highly likely (bordering on the 99.9999% thing again) Nordic Gods did not exist.

jeff061 · 12-23-2010, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by panerd

This is usually where the argument always ends up and it is kind of disappointing as I agree with what Molson said earlier that there is a lot of middle area that makes for really interesting discussion. However there are usually the two choices presented from above...

1) Atheist right: People die just like trees or bugs.
2) Atheist wrong: They go to hell

What about this other choice that seems a lot more feasible?

Atheist wrong: There is something after death that happens however there is not some powerful deity who will punish you forever for not going to church on Sunday or for being a Jew, Catholic, Muslim, scientologist, atheist, etc. No human being can possibly fathom what this afterlife is. Doesn't this seem far more likely than Jesus and God sitting there and sending you to hell because you happened to be raised Jewish, lived an honorable life, and then died without finding the Christian God? (insert any major religion in either blank) That seems to be the atheism I subscribe to. I have no idea what happens when I die but am 99.999% certain that none of the major world religions knows either. So I live my life with principles and ethics and think organized religion can do a lot of good but also can be very divisive and do a lot of horrible things.

Well I wasn't arguing that and am specifically avoiding crossing into the deeper aspects of this discussion. Else I probably will just cement myself as an arrogant asshole disbeliever

. I do define myself more agnostic though.

When discussing who has more to lose you need to go with the extremes and that was all I was commenting on.

jeff061 · 12-23-2010, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by panerd

You could say there is no proof that there was no Thor but I think most of us realize it's highly likely (bordering on the 99.9999% thing again) Nordic Gods did not exist.

Yeah, I shouldn't have posted that. I agree with everyone who has quoted and responded. I've just had that false logic thrown in my face a few dozen times and thought I would attempt to clear up a point, even if I didn't agree with it.

MJ4H · 12-23-2010, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanGarion

Posting funny stuff about religion does not make one atheist.

Pretty sure his claim that he was an atheist is what I was referring to.

NorvTurnerOverdrive · 12-23-2010, 07:43 PM

the oldest debate in the history of mankind will be solved tonight. right here in this thread. by text sim aficionados. everyone will leave satisfied.

let's hash this out gentlemen.

Neuqua · 12-23-2010, 08:04 PM

DanGarion · 12-23-2010, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJ4H

Pretty sure his claim that he was an atheist is what I was referring to.

Let me check.
Nope, wrong.

MJ4H · 12-23-2010, 08:54 PM

lol ok

You realize he even conceded it in this thread, too, right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

Hmm...I guess that could be taken as me saying I'm atheist.

(as if it wasn't obvious, anyway)

DanGarion · 12-23-2010, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJ4H

lol ok

You realize he even conceded it in this thread, too, right?

(as if it wasn't obvious, anyway)

Are you even reading this thread?

MJ4H · 12-23-2010, 08:59 PM

There's also this post:

Front Office Football Central - View Single Post - The Passion of the Christ

MJ4H · 12-23-2010, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanGarion

Are you even reading this thread?

Yes, why?

EagleFan · 12-23-2010, 09:03 PM

Posting a thread like this during this time of year is done for what reason? To troll.

I have seen threads like this get locked down quickly but he is mod troll so we continue.

As for the other debate....

I went to a Christian school so I know all of the background of that religion. Do I think there is a god? I have no real clue. Do I think there is a god that is exactly as any religion claims? No.

I once posed a question(s) in school about the debate over big bang versus creationism. I asked... what if god used the big bang to get it all started? What if god did start all this but not in the way the bible claims? Why does that make it any different of a god? It would still be god?

Needless to say... they didn't go over well.

MJ4H · 12-23-2010, 09:06 PM

I tend to agree.

panerd · 12-23-2010, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Posting a thread like this during this time of year is done for what reason? To troll.

I have seen threads like this get locked down quickly but he is mod troll so we continue.

As for the other debate....

I went to a Christian school so I know all of the background of that religion. Do I think there is a god? I have no real clue. Do I think there is a god that is exactly as any religion claims? No.

I once posed a question(s) in school about the debate over big bang versus creationism. I asked... what if god used the big bang to get it all started? What if god did start all this but not in the way the bible claims? Why does that make it any different of a god? It would still be god?

Needless to say... they didn't go over well.

Or he posted it because it was just in the Wall Street Journal. (So apperently the Wall Street Journal is just trolling) I guess two days before Christmas is too close. Maybe put it off a few weeks?

Sorry that we can't talk about something because you consider it trolling. Just don't read the thread.

DanGarion · 12-23-2010, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJ4H

Yes, why?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

Hmm...I guess that could be taken as me saying I'm atheist.

For the record, I'm Jewish. Chew on that one.

That's why.

MJ4H · 12-23-2010, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanGarion

That's why.

Yes, I saw that. Jewish and atheist are not mutually exclusive.

And it's not really relevant even if they were, since he has said he was atheist and acted like it on multiple occasions, which was my point.

panerd · 12-23-2010, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJ4H

Yes, I saw that. Jewish and atheist are not mutually exclusive.

And it's not really relevant even if they were, since he has said he was atheist and acted like it on multiple occasions, which was my point.

Of course they are. This is just a dumb post to make.

MJ4H · 12-23-2010, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by panerd

Of course they are. This is just a dumb post to make.

Um, no they aren't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_atheism

panerd · 12-23-2010, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJ4H

Um, no they aren't.

Jewish atheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thats a bit of a stretch. Whatever, don't really care about your guys argument anyways. Just think its dumb to claim someone can practice a religion and be atheist at the same time.

MJ4H · 12-23-2010, 09:21 PM

It's not a stretch at all. I didn't see where he claimed to practice a religion. (saying you are Jewish is not claiming to practice a religion)

EagleFan · 12-23-2010, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by panerd

Or he posted it because it was just in the Wall Street Journal. (So apperently the Wall Street Journal is just trolling) I guess two days before Christmas is too close. Maybe put it off a few weeks?

Sorry that we can't talk about something because you consider it trolling. Just don't read the thread.

You're smarter than that. Posting nothing but a link that you know is going to get people stirred up is trolling 101. There was no other motivation for the post or he would have added some kind of commentary about it.

Greyroofoo · 12-23-2010, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJ4H

It's not a stretch at all. I didn't see where he claimed to practice a religion. (saying you are Jewish is not claiming to practice a religion)

So he's claiming that he's good at math or something?

panerd · 12-23-2010, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EagleFan

You're smarter than that. Posting nothing but a link that you know is going to get people stirred up is trolling 101. There was no other motivation for the post or he would have added some kind of commentary about it.

I guess I don't know a lot of the board members personalities very well. (honest statement, not saying I don't believe that Sun Tsu might post trolling stuff all the time I really don't know anything about him) However it seems to have landed a somewhat decent thread with some typical extreme views on both sides. I wouldn't say it was a troll thread like the one about dogs>Eli Manning that was blatently just posted to piss someone off. Seems like nobody is getting too bent out of shape about it. No harm felt from me.

DanGarion · 12-23-2010, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJ4H

Yes, I saw that. Jewish and atheist are not mutually exclusive.

And it's not really relevant even if they were, since he has said he was atheist and acted like it on multiple occasions, which was my point.

I'm sure you could find a number of posts on here where I have "acted" like an atheist too.

I don't really care if he is or isn't since that's not a factor IMO, but for the record he did not say he was an atheist in that thread.

Quote:

I didn't see the "no atheists" sign

≠

Quote:

I am an atheist.

EagleFan · 12-23-2010, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by panerd

I guess I don't know a lot of the board members personalities very well. (honest statement, not saying I don't believe that Sun Tsu might post trolling stuff all the time I really don't know anything about him) However it seems to have landed a somewhat decent thread with some typical extreme views on both sides. I wouldn't say it was a troll thread like the one about dogs>Eli Manning that was blatently just posted to piss someone off. Seems like nobody is getting too bent out of shape about it. No harm felt from me.

I clicked on the link to see if there was a good discussion. But he posted nothing but the link/story. That is pretty much trolling without committing to it. You know how religion gets people going.

If JiMG posts a thread titled "Interesting 'Are gays evil?' article from ..." and left nothing more than the link and article he would get read the riot act by many people, including those who are defending this thread.

jeff061 · 12-23-2010, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by panerd

Thats a bit of a stretch. Whatever, don't really care about your guys argument anyways. Just think its dumb to claim someone can practice a religion and be atheist at the same time.

Reminds me of the David Cross bit. Complete atheist, but his mother is Jewish, so he is as well.

Sun Tzu · 12-23-2010, 10:00 PM

MJ4H and EagleFan sure are adept at forming opinions and then stating them as fact. Here, just so you can undo that bunch in your panties.

I am not an Atheist, I am Jewish. Clear enough for you?

A friend of mine linked to this article on Facebook. I read it, thought it was engaging and interesting, and posted it here thinking others might feel the same way. I DID state an opinion on the article, and it's in the thread title. Clear enough for you?

12-23-2010, 06:08 PM	#52
jeff061 Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: MA	There is no proof that there is no god. Thus actively believing there isn't one is faith driven. I think was the point. __________________

12-23-2010, 06:18 PM	#54
jeff061 Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: MA	Recent experiments with the LHC has hinted at the possibility that there was existence before the big bang. Science is the search of truth and no one pretends it provides the answer to everything. There are an infinite amount of unknowns out there and that's ok. I don't need everything to be explained away and if something is I want as many facts as possible backing it up. So no, the big bang is not even remotely central to a religious debate. At least not from the Athiest/Agnostic side. __________________ Last edited by jeff061 : 12-23-2010 at 06:19 PM.

12-23-2010, 08:04 PM	#79
Neuqua Pro Rookie Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Chicago, Ill	^^^^ __________________ Our Deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, 'Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous?' Actually, who are you not to be?

12-23-2010, 09:03 PM	#85
EagleFan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Mays Landing, NJ USA	Posting a thread like this during this time of year is done for what reason? To troll. I have seen threads like this get locked down quickly but he is mod troll so we continue. As for the other debate.... I went to a Christian school so I know all of the background of that religion. Do I think there is a god? I have no real clue. Do I think there is a god that is exactly as any religion claims? No. I once posed a question(s) in school about the debate over big bang versus creationism. I asked... what if god used the big bang to get it all started? What if god did start all this but not in the way the bible claims? Why does that make it any different of a god? It would still be god? Needless to say... they didn't go over well. __________________ The EagleFan YouTube Channel - Reactions Soarin' & Scratchin' YouTube Channel - We react to music, videos, TV, we talk, we are planning some field trips Soarin' & Soothin' - Meditation, Relaxation, and Sleep Aid; mental health is important

12-23-2010, 10:00 PM	#100
Sun Tzu Pro Starter Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: In the thick of it.	MJ4H and EagleFan sure are adept at forming opinions and then stating them as fact. Here, just so you can undo that bunch in your panties. I am not an Atheist, I am Jewish. Clear enough for you? A friend of mine linked to this article on Facebook. I read it, thought it was engaging and interesting, and posted it here thinking others might feel the same way. I DID state an opinion on the article, and it's in the thread title. Clear enough for you? __________________ I'm still here. Don't touch my fucking bacon.

12-23-2010, 06:30 PM	#58
Toddzilla Pro Starter Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Burke, VA	In my experience, the main difference between athiests and theists is the fact that the atheist has nothing to lose in the arguement, so they come with an inherent smugness knowing they can't be proven wrong. If it is proven that there is a god, then what do atheists care? They're wrong and they move on, it's not like their entire life is build upon a premise that they need to act a certain way to please a higher power. If it proven there is no god, then the believers suddenly see their entire belief system destroyed. To be sure, it's the theists that have everything to lose and nothing to gain.

12-23-2010, 07:43 PM	#78
NorvTurnerOverdrive College Benchwarmer Join Date: Jan 2008	the oldest debate in the history of mankind will be solved tonight. right here in this thread. by text sim aficionados. everyone will leave satisfied. let's hash this out gentlemen.

12-23-2010, 08:59 PM	#83
MJ4H Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Hog Country	There's also this post: Front Office Football Central - View Single Post - The Passion of the Christ

12-23-2010, 09:06 PM	#86
MJ4H Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Hog Country	I tend to agree.

12-23-2010, 09:21 PM	#93
MJ4H Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Hog Country	It's not a stretch at all. I didn't see where he claimed to practice a religion. (saying you are Jewish is not claiming to practice a religion)

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