Total Extreme Warfare Released

[Easy Mac]

.400 Sucks and I hope all their test monkeys die.

(I thought the 50th post should be something stupid and completely idiotic.)

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by chinaski

i am an old wrestling fan. early 80's NWA, New Japan, and some WWF was where it was at for me as a kid.

I hoped I would like this game, but so far im completely unimpressed. maybe its just a reflection of how i feel about modern day wrestling? maybe i just dont get it, but im not seeing how any of this is fun. You schedule matches, you have to decide who wins the match. It seems like this wrestling game has nothing to do with the wrestling, but all the other stupid bs involved with it.

You decide who wins the match? Wow sounds like more fun than a barrel of monkeys...

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

You decide who wins the match? Wow sounds like more fun than a barrel of monkeys...

This is suppossed to be a wrestling sim... and that's how wrestling works. The results are pre-determined. If this were marketed as a wrestling "game," then it would be a different story.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by MikeVic

This is suppossed to be a wrestling sim... and that's how wrestling works. The results are pre-determined. If this were marketed as a wrestling "game," then it would be a different story.

Pardon, a smark I am not...

[chinaski]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

You decide who wins the match? Wow sounds like more fun than a barrel of monkeys...

Yea, exactly. You have to decide who wins the match, you cant just pit 2 wrestlers against one another and let their various ratings be the judge. I was thinking this game would be more like Coliseum or what a boxing sim could be.

Im not at all interested in creating a little wrestling fantasy land. the guys with greased up wrestlers in their sigs and avatars make me feel a little uneasy.

[Calis]

Originally Posted by chinaski

Yea, exactly. You have to decide who wins the match, you cant just pit 2 wrestlers against one another and let their various ratings be the judge. I was thinking this game would be more like Coliseum or what a boxing sim could be.

Im not at all interested in creating a little wrestling fantasy land. the guys with greased up wrestlers in their sigs and avatars make me feel a little uneasy.

TNM is really the way to go if you really want something like that.

I imagine it's pretty long in the tooth now as it's been years since I played it. Great game though, enjoyed it more than I did EWR for the reasons mentioned.

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

Pardon, a smark I am not...

You don't have to be a smark to know that wrestling is pre-determined. If boxing had pre-determined results (if it was proven at least), and a boxing sim came out, it would mean deciding who wins the match. If a boxing game came out, it would mean something like Knockout Kings.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by MikeVic

You don't have to be a smark to know that wrestling is pre-determined. If boxing had pre-determined results (if it was proven at least), and a boxing sim came out, it would mean deciding who wins the match. If a boxing game came out, it would mean something like Knockout Kings.

Alright, alright I get it. Now go get the game, hatch some superstars and write a kick ass speech they can give in a pre-match hype interview...

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by Calis

TNM is really the way to go if you really want something like that.

I imagine it's pretty long in the tooth now as it's been years since I played it. Great game though, enjoyed it more than I did EWR for the reasons mentioned.

I played TNM a lot longer than I played EWR. I liked making up stories and matches and stuff based on random results. Forces you to change your plans a lot. You could always still decide how the match would finish in TNM, if you ever wanted to.

Even though I'm saying EWR is a wrestling sim in my other posts, it doesn't mean I still don't like TNM more.


edit for spelling.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by cody8200

No one and I mean no one comes close to working with their customers as much as Joe, Arlie, and Gary.

cody, meet HeavyReign...HR, meet cody.

[Calis]

Originally Posted by MikeVic

I played TNM a lot longer than I played EWR. I liked making up stories and matches and stuff based on random results. Forces you to change your plans a lot. You could always still decide how the match would finish in TNM, if you ever wanted to.

ven though I'm saying EWR is a wrestling sim in my other posts, it doesn't mean I still don't like TNM more.

Yeah, I follow ya.

Man, now I want to play TNM again..doing a quick look, did it actually get updated? I thought he was done after 7, but it looks like maybe some more has been done to it. Have to investigate further.

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

Alright, alright I get it. Now go get the game, hatch some superstars and write a kick ass speech they can give in a pre-match hype interview...

Heh, sorry. I just wanted to clarify what kind of game this is for anyone else that could be reading...

[chrisj]

Originally Posted by ScottVib

The problem wasn't the number of returns, it was the abuse of the system. People were buying -> returning, buying->returning, etc. in essence getting the game for free without paying.

So why not limit the number of times a person could return the game? Just once...

At the very least, the demo should be longer than just one day. I think in a text sim it is hard for someone to sit down in just an hour or so and figure out, "is this the game for me?". 3 days or so would give the person more time to judge then make their decesion.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

(I thought the 50th post should be something stupid and completely idiotic.)

Did you not see my posts?

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by wig

Check this out: http://www.gonegold.com/

The GoneGold guys have come up with a mod to fix the player progression and stat problems in MVP

Unfortunately, I had the PS2 version. I might buy the PC version, if I heard a lot of good feedback about it, but so far it seems like such a headache with the various problems with gamepads and such. I wish they would release patches for PS2 versions now that a hard drive is available.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by druez

Does Fast Break and Solesmic allow returns? I've never tried to return one of their products, so I have no clue. I've liked all their games and kept them.

One day demo allows you to see if it will work on your system and try out the core elements of game play. Its a 20ish mb file and doesn't take long to install. How long should you be able to play a demo? I know I bought diablo 2 for my PC and beat the game in 2 days.

I agree the past releases of .400 software studios, namely Tournament Dreams being the worst, TPF and TPB were far from steller. They all turned out to be good games and I find TPF to be one of the best if not the best football sim now. I still think Fast Break is better in both college and pro for core gameplay.

If it wasn't .400 but another company say EA Sports that gave you a full one day demo of the product and then the option to buy would you guys be favorable to that.

I know I would rather have a full demo for one day then a demo that is unlimted that allows you to only play 1 quater of football.

What are you thoughts?

I agree with the first part of your post in that I don't know if Solecismic or HeavyReign allow returns because I never had any need to return their games. They had the advertised features. They worked reasonably well out of the box. I'm not saying neither had bugs, as they both clearly did. However, IMHO both Solecismic and HR's releases have gone MUCH more smoothly then ANY .400 release. If Solecismic and HR had the recent release history that .400 has, I would be just as critical and just as unlikely to buy their products if they had been offering refunds and suddenly stopped offering refunds.

As far as TPF being on the of the best football sims if not the best, well, considering there aren't too many choices out there I would agree it is one of the best (however I question how meaningful that statement is.) However, most objective observers would agree that it is not "the best" football sim out there. It might win an award as the prettiest, but not the best.

I definitely agree with you that HR and his fast break offerings are the best basketball offerings out there, although I hope he updates FBB in the next year as the engine is starting to show its age. In the meantime, FBCB is excellent.

As far as comparing EA sports and .400, it is apples and oranges. Furthermore, at least in my case, I can (and did with MVP) return the product for a full 7 days.

Simply put, in the unique situation that .400 software studios is in with their recent history, IMHO they are making a bad decision to stop offering refunds and to cut the length of their demos. Regardless of intent, it implies a lack of faith in the product to me and perhaps other potential customers as well and it will deter me from even trying out their products.

[markprior22]

It all boils down to "time will tell". If 400SS doesn't produce games that people purchase and enjoy, they won't be around. Just that simple.

[Ragone]

I agree with Sabotai.. Heavyreign is very receptive to ideas from the community and even fixes people's save games when things go wrong.. I've also seen arlie do that.

I liked the old wrestling sim games.. so i'll probably check out the demo.. really to me 1 full day is enough.. cause when i sit down to play.. i sit down for a few hours.. and i can easily figure out in a few hours if i'm going to like something or if its a bug riddled mess.. But i do think maybe a extra day on the demo would have been a good idea.

[druez]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

As far as TPF being on the of the best football sims if not the best, well, considering there aren't too many choices out there I would agree it is one of the best (however I question how meaningful that statement is.) However, most objective observers would agree that it is not "the best" football sim out there. It might win an award as the prettiest, but not the best.

Well, I've looked at reviews from both all over the internet. They are pretty close between the games for sure. The drafting aspect of TPF is more engaging and the presentation of the product is better.

The interface in FOF2004 is more streamlined and the engine in regards to raw data is very close. I like the presentation of the data better in TPF with the radio style pbp. There is more information present in FOF. I really think you could make a case for either game.

I still play both of them for different reasons. Depending on my mood. Around the draft, I'm going to do a TPF and FOF revisted review. Now that they are both patched up.

At the time, I was probably too deeply involved with the TPF beta to objectively review it in its currrent state. I think, I reviewed it more on the game it would become and it is now in its patched state.

I'm human and I made a mistake. I stick by my review of TPF in its current form and I stick by my review of FOF. Both are excellent products but neither are at the level of SI Games products as of yet. I looked at this forum as anti .400 and I got into some feuds and unfairly argued or put down FOF because of this forums users and my defense of TPF the game I was very into testing. To Jim, who deserves better I say sorry. Somone, I don't remember, told me I shouldn't review games, that I'm so active in testing. In the past I never had that problem but this time I did again I'm sorry.

Anyway,

It will be interesting to watch over the next year the releases of Jim, HR, Gary and Arlie. I think they will all only get better.

But lets stay on topic! I think TEW is pretty cool, if you like managment sims or wrestling. I can't stand wrestling, but got involved into the business side of it and became a bit addicted to it.

[Ragone]

Seriously.. i've said it before.. Slap Tpf's draft and graphic's with fof's sim engine.. and flexibility.. and you've got a game i'd never leave the house because of

[The_herd]

I've never been the biggest wrestling fan, but I did download the freeware version of the game a few months ago and had a blast with it. There is actually quite a bit of strategy involved in developing your wrestlers, keeping their "over" high, pulling in TV ratings, and finding young talent before the other organizations do. I was in class at the time, and I often found myself thinking about how I was going to script my up and coming wrestler's rise instead of what was actually going on in class.

It ended up being a very adictive and heavily played game for about 3 months. Not bad for a game that was free.

[TLK]

After playing the demo..... I'm gonna pass..... I'll give it another chance when the real-life rosters come out.....

[KeyserSoze]

Well . I like the game, and I´ll buy it , i think so.

3 more things.

First- The Company ideas about refunding or trial time, well,they are their marketing decissions. You could agree or not, but it´s on their hands. I think 1 day of sim is a too little anyway

2- You could like the idea or not. You could like wrestling, or you could like the idea of "arranging" all the results. If you dont like it, it doesnt mean that its a bad game, just that is not in your "scope of fun"

3- For a .400 product it´s very arranged in his first version.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

Unfortunately, I had the PS2 version. I might buy the PC version, if I heard a lot of good feedback about it, but so far it seems like such a headache with the various problems with gamepads and such. I wish they would release patches for PS2 versions now that a hard drive is available.

Get one of those PS2 controller to USB thingys.

[bigdawg2003]

When do the RaveX rosters come out? Has there been an announcement?

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by KeyserSoze

First- The Company ideas about refunding or trial time, well,they are their marketing decissions. You could agree or not, but it´s on their hands.

I, for one, posted my comments here about this new policy not to slam .400 (I have supported them in the past - I think their inclusion in the market is good for the genre) or demand they change their policy. I posted because I knew that the .400 folks read here. I wanted them to know that I am a potential (and three time past as well) customer who will not buy any of their games with that policy in place. They can do as they wish with that information and I will respect their decision.

I am not actually too upset about it being in place for this game, since I had no interest in a wrestling game, but will not consider future purchases under those conditions.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by bigdawg2003

When do the RaveX rosters come out? Has there been an announcement?

An "in-progress" release was made yesterday. It looks like hey still have a lot of work to do.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Looks like this thread performed exactly as I had hoped, saving me some bother.

After all, I wouldn't want to waste my whole one-day demo period. Between the lack of RaveX rosters & the ongoing issues I found on the .400 forum, I don't see much point to bothering to download the demo right now, I don't feel like I'd have any more idea about a buying decision than I do right now.

I'm a little surprised I haven't seen this mentioned somewhere in the thread though:

" CPU: Pentium III class (or equivelant) 2.00 ghz or higher, Memory: 512 MB RAM or higher"
( Please note that in order to play with every game area activated, you must meet the optimal system requirements.)

Umm ... for a f'n TEXT sim?

LMAO. No wonder more & more of my dollars are going into tabletop sims instead of PC games.

[Sharpieman]

The makers love to drive the theme in with the title (Total Extreme Warfare) don't they?...
I guess their try to differentiate between a "Kinda Extreme Warfare" or a "Total Mild Warfare"

[yabanci]

I'm glad all the returns hurt them. It might teach a lesson about releasing unfinished games.

[Ragone]

What would be a acceptable title for a wrestling sim?

Total steroid enhanced scripted warfare?

Don't get me wrong, in its heyday.. i liked pro wrestling.. it just doesn't hold the same luster anymore in my mind. I think back then i liked the defined heros and villians.. anymore you can't really tell the good from the bad.

[jetpunk2000]

Well, it looks like they did it again, at least judging by some of the post on the boards over there. Not only did they scrap their return policy (it wouldn't surprise me if they KNEW the game wasn't in optimal condition and KNEW they were gonna be hit with return requests), limit the demo so much that you can almost make no determination whether or not you want to buy the game, but they have once again released an incomplete game. I've read some posts that the programmer set a release date for Q1 2004 and released the game on the last day of the quarter to keep his word. Whether that's true or not, I don't know, but if it is, then has .400 learned anything?

The sad thing is, after trying the demo, there is a lot there. I've played the freeware version of the game and have gotten limited use out of it before tiring. My problem is twofold. One the short demo doesn't allow enough time to really get a feel about whether or not the novelty factor will wear off and I will have no use for the game in a few days. The other issue is .400 studios. I'm not sure what it is. I don't know if they are arrongant, aloof, detached or what. It just seems to me that the message they have sent is money first, customers second. Kind of like a corporation.

[McSweeny]

Originally Posted by jetpunk2000

As far as I know, nobody has found a way to crack an elicense game without the license. IMHO.

that's a silly thing to say. Of course there are ways around elicense. Just like there are cracks for cd protection, passwords, encryption, etc etc etc. If you can lock it up there is always a way to unlock it

[jetpunk2000]

Originally Posted by McSweeny

that's a silly thing to say. Of course there are ways around elicense. Just like there are cracks for cd protection, passwords, encryption, etc etc etc. If you can lock it up there is always a way to unlock it

First of all, nice cut and paste job with the IMHO. It doesn't belong there. Second, I haven't seen any evidence anywhere of anyone being successful with cracking the elicense. Granted it's a smaller community than the CD-ROM game crowd, but I am sure if someone found a crack, it would spread through the community pretty quickly and Viatech would be up a creek.

[McSweeny]

Whoops sorry about that IMHO bit

the reason that nothing has spread through the community is because it would take a considerable amount of effort to crack an elicense game as opposed to the various CD protections out there. I also think that elicense is used primarily by independant developers and people don't want to rip these individuals off. People have a much easier time ripping EA and the likes off. I mean around here we all know that Jim and HR and Marc are all great guys and we all do our best to support them because they produce such awesome games in a very small niche.

But i digress, my only point was that there is always a way to crack a program. Always

[jetpunk2000]

Not a problem with the IMHO. I'm so indoctrined to people cutting and pasting on AOL message boards to magically make a point look different than it really is that I guess I'm a bit paranoid about it. Hehe.

Anyway, I think the argument about whether or not elicense is crackable kinda detracts from my overall point. The refund and demo policy of .400. Because if the elicense system is in fact crackable, whether or not the person buys the game is irrelavent since the entire game is available for download without purchasing it. Correct? Or am I missing something?

[McSweeny]

oh i agree with you, i'm just saying it would be foolish of viatech, .400, or anyone else to think that elicense is fool proof. Software will be pirated. That much is a given. That being said, it appears that elicense does a very good job of preventing piracy without creating TOO many problems which is why so many small developers use it i would assume. With EA and the other big boys i think elicense would cause them too many headaches and wouldn't be cost-effective. And i'm sure elicense doesn't mind not being contracted by EA and the likes because if that were the case there would be a far greater number of people trying to find ways around the elicense system

anyway, i digress again. All was trying to point out is that elicense is not fool proof, nor is any other copy-protection system. Just a bit of nitpicking on my part, sorry for the minor threadjack

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by Blade6119

Marc Vaughn will listen to and fix any problem ANYONE has with his game,

Much as I'd love that to be the case (and thanks for the kind comments) - I can only 'try to' and will sometimes fail (my hit rate for repairing corrupted games has drawn two blanks in a row recently unfortunately).

[SirFozzie]

Ok. My first thoughts.

Is there bugs? Yeah.

Is there two patches out (and a third due out in minutes?) yup.

Is the game playable as it stands? After this patch, yes.

It's the Champ Manager of wrestling sims.. it's deep, but so deep, it's slow, but so deep you don't mind it being slow. It's a pretty darn good game so far.

[Mota]

I've seen cracked versions of Title Bout and Tournament Dreams College Basketball around on the net.

But these are the companies we have to support, a few hundred people pirating these games makes a big difference to them. Could make all the difference between getting a next version to the game or not.

[BigDPW]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Ok. My first thoughts.

Is there bugs? Yeah.

Is there two patches out (and a third due out in minutes?) yup.

Is the game playable as it stands? After this patch, yes.

It's the Champ Manager of wrestling sims.. it's deep, but so deep, it's slow, but so deep you don't mind it being slow. It's a pretty darn good game so far.

I agree I used the trial and have enjoyed the game alot... It is very deep and I think I will get into it in due time (esp with realistic data)... I think the game needs some tinkering to make things a little easier with the interface (mostly stuff that should be borrowed from EWR) and Adam seems willing to do everything it takes to satisfy the consumers of the game... I have had no crashes thus far with the game except when trying to sign sponsors (and that is fixed now)...

I am thoroughly enjoying the game and I think it is going way overboard to consider the problems with this game similar to those of any previously botched .400 games... I think Adam did an admiral job getting this game out with as few bugs as possible... (I would venture to say Adams job has been more similar to Jim's work than the other .400 releases)

[TLK]

lurking over at the .400 boards and saw that RaveX won't be finishing the real roster update..... I was really hoping to get this game, but I think that just killed it....

[Mota]

Where did you see that? Right now their roster updates only have about 1/3 of the WWE done, but a large chunk of the Japan / Indy world are done.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Mota

Where did you see that? Right now their roster updates only have about 1/3 of the WWE done, but a large chunk of the Japan / Indy world are done.

It was announced in the mod forum in the long thread about their latest update. After the announcement Phil made a few vague posts indicating that he's working on some idea that may change his mind but as of now the plug has been pulled.

[MikeVic]

Ahh. Why is it just being dropped? That really sucks.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by MikeVic

Ahh. Why is it just being dropped? That really sucks.

Long story short (I think the thread is up to like 17 pages now) --
"Real life" has taken precedence over "game life" for most of the RaveX team. And rather than do something half-assed, they'd choose not to do it at all.

Y'know, I find it kind of hard to really complain about that.

They're volunteers doing what is clearly a pretty massive task
(it didn't take long for me to figure out how many stats there are for each workerX2000-3000 workers, divided across 100 or so promotions that could reasonably be included =wayfnmorethanIwouldwanttotackleinalifetime ).

The downside is that there really isn't anybody else, IMO, with enough credibility to take up the task single-handedly. And the real downside for .400, again IMO, is that without real-world updates that are considered both accurate & complete, there's going to be a real uphill battle for additional sales.

Unlike, say, FOF, where things pretty quickly shift into fully fictional universes, I dare say that very few veterans of the EWR incarnation of the Ryland game have ever played enough to fully eliminate the real rosters completely. It's just the difference in the age/aging & timing mechanisms of wrestling vs other text-sim subjects -- you figure a guy who is a rising star at 22-25 y/o right now has got at least 20 years left in him (not even including his time as a future announcer/trainer/owner/booker/referee/etc).
Then mulitiply that by having 365 days in a "season" instead of other genres that have definitive off-seasons that move the calendar much faster.

I wouldn't completely despair of RaveX finding a solution just yet though. The thread has taken a turn toward "how can we make this work, at least for one full update" instead of "ain't gonna happen".

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Long story short (I think the thread is up to like 17 pages now) --
"Real life" has taken precedence over "game life" for most of the RaveX team. And rather than do something half-assed, they'd choose not to do it at all.

Y'know, I find it kind of hard to really complain about that.

They're volunteers doing what is clearly a pretty massive task
(it didn't take long for me to figure out how many stats there are for each workerX2000-3000 workers, divided across 100 or so promotions that could reasonably be included =wayfnmorethanIwouldwanttotackleinalifetime ).

The downside is that there really isn't anybody else, IMO, with enough credibility to take up the task single-handedly. And the real downside for .400, again IMO, is that without real-world updates that are considered both accurate & complete, there's going to be a real uphill battle for additional sales.

Unlike, say, FOF, where things pretty quickly shift into fully fictional universes, I dare say that very few veterans of the EWR incarnation of the Ryland game have ever played enough to fully eliminate the real rosters completely. It's just the difference in the age/aging & timing mechanisms of wrestling vs other text-sim subjects -- you figure a guy who is a rising star at 22-25 y/o right now has got at least 20 years left in him (not even including his time as a future announcer/trainer/owner/booker/referee/etc).
Then mulitiply that by having 365 days in a "season" instead of other genres that have definitive off-seasons that move the calendar much faster.

I wouldn't completely despair of RaveX finding a solution just yet though. The thread has taken a turn toward "how can we make this work, at least for one full update" instead of "ain't gonna happen".

Yeah, you can't complain about it. If they can't do it, then they can't do it. You're right about the no offseason thing too. I never even played the free EWR games past 3 months and it just got too tedious. And when I played, it was really just to make a guy like Jericho win the title.

Thanks for this info.

[JonInMiddleGA]

While I'm posting on the subject, I oughta mention that I d'loaded the demo last night, figuring it'd be something to fiddle with while watching UConn-UMinn in the late game.

My own .02, FWIW ...

-- The game is incredibly slow-paced. That's not really a knock on it, so don't anybody get their knickers in a knot, that's just how the game is IMO in the early stages. In that respect, EWR was no different really. I've played EWR quite a bit, was a TNM'er before that, I know my pro wrestling pretty darned well, and I'm having to pick my way through things. I can't imagine how long the first few days would take for a true neophyte.

-- So far, no crashes (amazing, considering this is me we're talking about ) but I can't say that I've gone even 7 days deep yet, nor have I tried anything adventurous at all. Hell, with about 3-4 hours of actual time on the game, I haven't even booked a card or run a show yet.

-- The depth, presuming it actually has logical & reasonable impact on game events, is impressive. If I had been designing things, I might have done 1 or 2 things differently in terms of organizing attributes & their meanings/effects, but that's an incredibly subjective thing. What Adam did to quantify some rather nebulous things is, IMO, the best effort I've seen to date in the genre, even better than TNM.

-- Because of the volumes of data, not having a print function/option (AFAIK) is a real handicap. Or even an export function failing anything else. You pretty much have to check individual stats/info/data one wrestler at a time, closing the screen each time before selecting another wrestler. That gets awfully tedious & time-consuming, especially if all you're trying to figure out is who would make a decent opponent for your midcard face in the middle match of the next house show.

-- The situation above leads me to my next observation: this thing is a helluva memory hog. I've started two careers so far, just to see some different things & even with only North America & Japan active, the processing time is probably slower than most gamers I know will tolerate. We're talking EHM here, maybe slower. I know it's slower in the early days of a career but still ... And with everything except WinExplorer & Systray closed, running TEW puts me down to around 40% resources on a 128MB machine running WinMe. And that means that opening Excel to keep track of info really isn't an option as it was for EWR. Which is really what puts me off right now far more than the actual speed -- I've got all this info but really not much in the way of being able to organize it or analyze it.

-- Whether it was intentional or coincidental, there's almost an "anti-spreadsheet" look & feel to the game. Unfortunately, the large amount of data involved in playing in anything other than a random fashion seems to cry out for just that approach -- put a lot of data on the screen simultaneously, make it sortable/rankable. And sticky. Instead, you're pretty much forced (again, AFAIK) to plod through one wrestler after another after another after another, when all you're really trying to figure out is something like "who are my six best technical wrestlers".

-- Surprisingly, very surprisingly as a matter of fact, I'm not finding myself turned off by the 100% fictional universe in & of itself. But without figuring out a way to organize, assess, analyze, and otherwise consume all the data, I'd be hard-pressed to justify a purchase personally right now. Although I'll admit that I'm tempted, at this point at least, because of both the almost grognardish nature of the game & by Adam Ryland's track record to date.

-- While I've mentioned the fictional universe, I also want to give Adam/400/et al
a compliment that might seem a little unusual (unless you follow wrestling & have gamed it a few different ways): Great job of creating fictional wrestlers that "feel real". They aren't a collection of generic clones, nor a collection of thinly disguised real-life wrestlers, nor a collection of overdrawn characters too outlandish even for pro wrestling -- they're a large cast of characters that appear to have had quite a bit of thought put into them, with enough attention to detail that they actually take on "personality". A number of text-sims I can think of could probably benefit from taking the same approach to game-characters such as coaches, owners, etc. TEW's fictionals are like 3-D, where a lot of other fictional universes feel very 2-D or even 1-D to me.

Frankly, I'd probably be able to dismiss TEW a bit more easily if I hit a crash or two (I'm nowhere near convinced that there's not an unrecoverable show-stopper just waiting around the corner) or if there were more things missing than I could tolerate.

As it is at the moment, I'd say I'm in a "resist temptation" mode about TEW. There appears to be a pretty darned good game here, presuming the engine is solid, but I've got my doubts about being able to make it enjoyably playable for myself right now because of the difficulties in organizing all the info.

[druez]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

While I'm posting on the subject, I oughta mention that I d'loaded the demo last night, figuring it'd be something to fiddle with while watching UConn-UMinn in the late game.

My own .02, FWIW ...

-- The game is incredibly slow-paced. That's not really a knock on it, so don't anybody get their knickers in a knot, that's just how the game is IMO in the early stages. In that respect, EWR was no different really. I've played EWR quite a bit, was a TNM'er before that, I know my pro wrestling pretty darned well, and I'm having to pick my way through things. I can't imagine how long the first few days would take for a true neophyte.

-- So far, no crashes (amazing, considering this is me we're talking about ) but I can't say that I've gone even 7 days deep yet, nor have I tried anything adventurous at all. Hell, with about 3-4 hours of actual time on the game, I haven't even booked a card or run a show yet.

-- The depth, presuming it actually has logical & reasonable impact on game events, is impressive. If I had been designing things, I might have done 1 or 2 things differently in terms of organizing attributes & their meanings/effects, but that's an incredibly subjective thing. What Adam did to quantify some rather nebulous things is, IMO, the best effort I've seen to date in the genre, even better than TNM.

-- Because of the volumes of data, not having a print function/option (AFAIK) is a real handicap. Or even an export function failing anything else. You pretty much have to check individual stats/info/data one wrestler at a time, closing the screen each time before selecting another wrestler. That gets awfully tedious & time-consuming, especially if all you're trying to figure out is who would make a decent opponent for your midcard face in the middle match of the next house show.

-- The situation above leads me to my next observation: this thing is a helluva memory hog. I've started two careers so far, just to see some different things & even with only North America & Japan active, the processing time is probably slower than most gamers I know will tolerate. We're talking EHM here, maybe slower. I know it's slower in the early days of a career but still ... And with everything except WinExplorer & Systray closed, running TEW puts me down to around 40% resources on a 128MB machine running WinMe. And that means that opening Excel to keep track of info really isn't an option as it was for EWR. Which is really what puts me off right now far more than the actual speed -- I've got all this info but really not much in the way of being able to organize it or analyze it.

-- Whether it was intentional or coincidental, there's almost an "anti-spreadsheet" look & feel to the game. Unfortunately, the large amount of data involved in playing in anything other than a random fashion seems to cry out for just that approach -- put a lot of data on the screen simultaneously, make it sortable/rankable. And sticky. Instead, you're pretty much forced (again, AFAIK) to plod through one wrestler after another after another after another, when all you're really trying to figure out is something like "who are my six best technical wrestlers".

-- Surprisingly, very surprisingly as a matter of fact, I'm not finding myself turned off by the 100% fictional universe in & of itself. But without figuring out a way to organize, assess, analyze, and otherwise consume all the data, I'd be hard-pressed to justify a purchase personally right now. Although I'll admit that I'm tempted, at this point at least, because of both the almost grognardish nature of the game & by Adam Ryland's track record to date.

-- While I've mentioned the fictional universe, I also want to give Adam/400/et al
a compliment that might seem a little unusual (unless you follow wrestling & have gamed it a few different ways): Great job of creating fictional wrestlers that "feel real". They aren't a collection of generic clones, nor a collection of thinly disguised real-life wrestlers, nor a collection of overdrawn characters too outlandish even for pro wrestling -- they're a large cast of characters that appear to have had quite a bit of thought put into them, with enough attention to detail that they actually take on "personality". A number of text-sims I can think of could probably benefit from taking the same approach to game-characters such as coaches, owners, etc. TEW's fictionals are like 3-D, where a lot of other fictional universes feel very 2-D or even 1-D to me.

Frankly, I'd probably be able to dismiss TEW a bit more easily if I hit a crash or two (I'm nowhere near convinced that there's not an unrecoverable show-stopper just waiting around the corner) or if there were more things missing than I could tolerate.

As it is at the moment, I'd say I'm in a "resist temptation" mode about TEW. There appears to be a pretty darned good game here, presuming the engine is solid, but I've got my doubts about being able to make it enjoyably playable for myself right now because of the difficulties in organizing all the info.

Thats an excellent post.

The one point I have to make though and PLEASE don't take this the wrong way. You need to upgrade. Windows ME is horrible at managing memory and there has been a memory leak in the windows 9x versions forever. 128 MB of ram by todays standards even the last few years of standards is really low. A developer really shouldn't worry to much about someone using windows ME and 128mb of ram.

Thats just my 2 cents.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by druez

The one point I have to make though and PLEASE don't take this the wrong way. You need to upgrade. Windows ME is horrible at managing memory and there has been a memory leak in the windows 9x versions forever. 128 MB of ram by todays standards even the last few years of standards is really low. A developer really shouldn't worry to much about someone using windows ME and 128mb of ram.

Thats just my 2 cents.

Nah, no worries (about how I'm taking the advice), you didn't take "that tone" which usually sets me off

Here's the things though (not arguing your points, just commenting really)

1) Goodness knows, I know from memory leakage, but that isn't the issue here. Leaks occur over time, this is like from 88% free to 40% free in one easy step. Yeah, early Win versions are notorious for it, but they aren't the issue in this instance.
2) Best I can tell, I caught between a large rock & an uncomfortable hard place. I hate WinMe as much as the next guy (probably more than most since I've been using it for so long now) but what choice do I really have when you consider that --
a) I wouldn't want a copy of XP in my house if Bill Gates hand-delivered it & offered me $100/day to use it. It's glorified spyware AFAIC, and I trust Microsoft less than NoMyths trusts the GOP
b) AFAIK, Win2k really isn't the world's best OS for routine everyday use either (an NT derivative IIRC).
c) I'm not a graphic designer, so Mac isn't really a useful option either.
Meaning I'm kinda stuck with WinMe.

3) I'm not sure that 128MB is quite as obsolete as you say. I'll conceed that it's on the lower-end, but just a quick 60 second glance at dell.com (just the first place I could think to look because I got a catalog from 'em today) list 2 of the 4 computers featured on their home/home office page as being 128mb machines. And the next 4 are just 256mb, and none of the 6 displayed for order meet the 512mb specs required for TEW. Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that Dell specs are the ultimate in computing or anything like that, I'm just saying that the recommended specs for TEW (and several other ostensibly text-sims) are on the higher end of the memory spectrum for the general public (i.e., everybody doesn't have machines built to play FPS games on cable modems).