Buying A New Car...

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

My wife got a Hyundai Sonata when her Volvo packed up just before christmas, it was a year old and fitted into all of your specs with some room to spare.

(personally speaking I'd avoid leasing, just from personal experience - I don't consider myself a 'long range' driver but I'm having to work at not exceeding the driving milage on my Explorer and I took the maximum they allowed as it was)

Leasing really depends on the car and situation. I know when selling Toyota's a few years ago, that leasing was great for some, bad for others. Going over milage isn't a big deal as long your lease allows you to trade in the car without having to "turn in" the car, as long as the value of the car holds up well. Trade in value of, say, a Camry in 2/4 years (as long as you didn't beat the heck out of it) even with higher miles would usually still yield you enough to straight trade out without being upside-down. In general, never turn-in a lease. You trade the leased car in on your next purchase.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

I had to go look that up. That is a great looking car. I swear Hyundai has some of the best car designers in terms of appearance.

It wouldn't work for me, but gratz!

Thanks! One of the better purchases I have made in recent years, IMO.

[molson]

Chief Rum is such a pimp.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by molson

Chief Rum is such a pimp.

Don't say that too loud. I don't want Pimpin' Pumpy to come in and bitch slap me for inching into his territory.

[Blackadar]

Might as well turn this into a AAR.

We went last night and looked at a few new cars, but only drove one. We looked with some small dealerships close by, so the selection wasn't overly impressive.

Hyundai

This was the first dealership we hit. We got a salesman - Mark - who didn't seem to know his ass from his elbow. Said a couple of times that "he'd only been there since March". Color me unimpressed. At least he was smart enough to try to get my contact information. Grade: C-.

Elentra - Quite impressive. Looks small from the outside, but surprisingly roomy inside in both the front and back seats. Plenty of trunk space. Good styling. Won North American Car of the Year Award, which is pretty impressive. Great gas mileage. The Wife, who was leaning towards a small SUV prior to us going out really seemed to like this one. Verdict: DEFINITE CANDIDATE.

Elentra Touring - Less impressive. Good styling (as all Hyundai vehicles have), but you could tell this one wasn't redone recently. Fairly poor gas mileage and a bland interior doomed this one quickly. Verdict: OUT

Tuscon - The small SUV choice for the wife. Again, great styling and pretty decent size. Very comparable to the Forester she has now. The Wife likes, but I think it's not necessary to have another small SUV (I drive a RAV 4). Still, I can't count it out. Verdict: MAYBE

Subaru

So then we went up the street to the Subaru dealer. We got a better salesman - Ralph (really, who names their kid Ralph?) - who seemed to know his stuff. We were introduced as old customers, so he took the "low key" approach to sales. Didn't get a name or number from us after talking with him - poor job, Ralph. Grade: C

Subaru Forester - Since I'm replacing a 14 year old Forester, this should be a natural. But it looked, well...cheap. Lots of exposed plastic inside and it was frankly pretty fugly. I know the ratings are excellent and my existing one is an awesome vehicle, but I'm not sure I can buy something that ugly. The Wife said almost the same exact things after we were done. What does it say about Subaru that two customers who prefer Subarus won't buy this because it looks cheap even though the company and vehicle are top-rated? Verdict: PROBABLY OUT.

Subaru Impreza - I used to have a WRX and I miss that car, so this may be the next best thing. Decent gas mileage, decent trunk room but it felt pretty closed in even though the head space is supposed to be comparable to the Elentra. This is the only vehicle we drove (and just around the parking lot), but the suspension and response instantly brought me back to the old WRX. The inside still looks cheap, but the overall presentation was improved. Verdict: CANDIDATE.

Ford

So with just a few minutes before closing time, we went to the Ford dealer. We got a heavily accented sales rep named Daniel who was difficult to understand. Seemed friendly enough, though he had a weak handshake. But it became obvious that Daniel & Co. were more interested in going home than helping. I can understand that a bit, but turning the lights off on us in the showroom wasn't the right way to go about it. Oops. Again, Daniel didn't even ask us for our contact information. Grade: D

Focus - Too small for us. The back seat room is tiny and so is the trunk. With a string-bean 12 year old (who will be taller than 6 feet) and a 2 year old (carseat room), it's just not the right car. Other than that, I was impressed. Great styling inside and out. Verdict: OUT

---

We're planning on hitting all the major dealers on Independence Blvd tonight because that's the largest selection of cars. We'll probably look at:

Hyundai Elentra (again, since the other dealer only had one)
Hyundai Tuscon (maybe, but the only dealer only had one)
Ford Fusion (didn't get the chance to see this last night)
Kia Optima (can't believe I'm looking at a Kia)
Kia Soul (The Wife is an artist and the styling appeals to her)
Toyota Camry (maybe)
Honda Accord (maybe)
Subaru Impreza (the other dealer had only one)

Any others we should look at for around $20k?

[Flasch186]

I love my Honda Accord but I splurged for the V6 since it felt so much better than the 4 cylinder, and quieter.

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Might as well turn this into a AAR.

We went last night and looked at a few new cars, but only drove one. We looked with some small dealerships close by, so the selection wasn't overly impressive.

After reading about your salesmen, I'm just thinking...my dad would have tore their faces off. Sold cars / eventually was sales manager at a lincoln mercury dealer for about 15 years. There'd be death involved if he saw one of his people acting like your guys did.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

After reading about your salesmen, I'm just thinking...my dad would have tore their faces off. Sold cars / eventually was sales manager at a lincoln mercury dealer for about 15 years. There'd be death involved if he saw one of his people acting like your guys did.

Since I'm a former Sales Director (though not in automobiles), I tend to want to grade salespeople when I'm dealing with them. I used to train sales people and their bosses, so I'm amazed how many bad ones there are out there. If I were the Sales Mgr, I'd have each of those guys in my office first thing this morning for a "retraining" session because all of 'em were lazy and/or untrained. For example:

When a prospect says they will be buying within two weeks, there's no excuse for not trying to get their contact information at the very least. "Mr. Blackadar, what's the best way to reach you - email or phone?" and then follow up every day if necessary.

When the prospect is a woman who says she has a two year old and hauls groceries, why aren't you showing off the trunk and back seat space? Heck, demonstrate with a spare carseat how the customer's will fit in there.

When the prospect is a guy who asks how much "pep" the car has, why aren't you instantly popping the hood to show off that shiny new engine?

Sad. Funny too, but generally pretty sad.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

CR, what did you get?

My 14 year old Subaru has finally given up the ghost - or, more appropriately, I'm putting it out to pasture. It needs about $2,500 worth of work on it and I'm not putting that much into an old car. So I guess I'm the new car market.

Shit.

I'll consider new or used, but I want to stay around or under $20k. Good gas mileage is a must. Looks aren't that important, but safety is. Need to be able to get a good toddler car seat in and out of it. It's essentially a "runabout" vehicle for the wife - local errands and such.

A question and an opinion.

We had a Forester for about 9 years (99-08). Our 2nd car was/is a 01 Hyundai Elantra.

We had more issues with the Forester than we ever had with the Elantra. Maybe a lemon, 2 weeks in the rear defroster didn't work. Always some nagging issue with it- nothing major, but noises, etc. I am going to assume you never experienced any of these same problems?

As for looking now, we still have the 01 Elantra, and when we traded in the Forester, we got a Hyundai VeraCruz (largest of the Hyundai SUVs). We've never had any issues with either vehicle that wasn't "self induced" - the SUV has had some recent nagging issues, but my wife was in an accident in it last August.

Obivously the dealership, etc are always going to be different and play a big role, but we've loved both Hyundai's we've owned.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Suburban Rhythm

A question and an opinion.

We had a Forester for about 9 years (99-08). Our 2nd car was/is a 01 Hyundai Elantra.

We had more issues with the Forester than we ever had with the Elantra. Maybe a lemon, 2 weeks in the rear defroster didn't work. Always some nagging issue with it- nothing major, but noises, etc. I am going to assume you never experienced any of these same problems?

As for looking now, we still have the 01 Elantra, and when we traded in the Forester, we got a Hyundai VeraCruz (largest of the Hyundai SUVs). We've never had any issues with either vehicle that wasn't "self induced" - the SUV has had some recent nagging issues, but my wife was in an accident in it last August.

Obivously the dealership, etc are always going to be different and play a big role, but we've loved both Hyundai's we've owned.

No problems with my Forester (well, until now). The car has been a rock. My sister bought one a couple of years ago and loves hers, too. In fact, I've had three new Subarus in my life - '86 GL Hatchback, 1998 Forester and a 2003 WRX - and all 3 cars have been great. Got 12 years out of the GL before a big truck ran it over, got 14 years out of the Forester and got rid of the WRX ( ) when it wasn't practical for the family.

[dawgfan]

The warranties on the Korean cars are amazing and a big selling point, along with the generally less expensive pricing. And now they've both had excellent styling makeovers.

Worth noting that Kia is partially owned by Hyundai, so if you feel reasonably good about Hyundai, that should probably carry over to Kia.

Not sure your pricing range, but if fuel economy is one of your big factors, worth noting that there's a hybrid Optima now. You should probably also consider a TDI - I'm guessing a Jetta would be the size car you'd probably look at. You can also get an A3 in a TDI, but you pay a lot for the Audi badge. Diesel still has a bad rap from some because they used to be gutless wonders, but the current generation of turbodiesels are much, much better, and the fuel economy is fantastic - better than a lot of hybrids in fact.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Focus - Too small for us. The back seat room is tiny and so is the trunk. With a string-bean 12 year old (who will be taller than 6 feet) and a 2 year old (carseat room), it's just not the right car. Other than that, I was impressed. Great styling inside and out. Verdict: OUT

---

Which Focus did you look at the 4 door or the 5 Door Hatch Back? I fit comfortably in the back of it and I'm a big guy (we've test drove it and it is on our list of picks).

[wade moore]

FWIW, I bought a Hyundai Elantra a few months ago with all of the bells and whistles. I LOVE this little car.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

When a prospect says they will be buying within two weeks, there's no excuse for not trying to get their contact information at the very least. "Mr. Blackadar, what's the best way to reach you - email or phone?" and then follow up every day if necessary.

To me though that'd be an instant way to lose any chance of me purchasing from you.

I will NOT give my contact details to a car showroom when looking around for a car, why not - I work from home and have better things to do than answer pointless calls from a car dealership .... if I want to buy from you then I'd be in your dealership writing a cheque, if I'm not then I'm not buying or have gone elsewhere thank you very much.

I HATE pushy salesmen and theres no better way to ensure you lose a sale than to try and 'sell' to me - if I have a question about something I'll ask it, if I don't then leave me to make my own mind up (and for gods sake don't ever try and pretend my be my 'long lost buddy' - yes I realize you're on commission, that doesn't mean you're a prostitute, ease off - I'll buy or I won't).

Same thing with price - if I'm interested in a car then I know what I'll pay - its the price I indicate I'll pay up front, you can pontificate and go and 'discuss things with the manager' all you want (ie. have a quiet cigarette before coming back with a new amount) but ultimately you either say 'yes thats a fair price' or I go elsewhere ... I hate buying cars.

[GrantDawg]

Ok, my car shopping AAR:

Started just browsing a couple of weeks ago, knowing we will buy at the end of this month/early next. There are certain things we knew we were looking for and/or wanted.

1) Car that will sit five comfortably (My daughter is 16 and dating. We need a back seat that she, a boy *shiver,* and my 8 year old can sit in comfortably with little "touching").

2) Wife really wants leather seats, so we prevent the stains from showing up that comes with having an 8 year old eat in the car.

3) I want a freakin' rear spoiler. We currently have a 2004 Nissan Sentra 2.5s. Great car, fun to drive (though small), and nice looking. Except it no spoiler. Cars just in general look so much better with a spoiler. When I bought it I said I'd get one, but here we are 8 years later and never had it done. I learned from that, if it the car doesn't have what you want, then don't buy it.

4) All of the car standards: We need good gas mileage, some thing fun to drive, and dependable.

For years I figured I'd be looking Hyundai or Kia when I was looking to buy next. High dependability, nice looking, and solid pricing. But the last couple of years, the prices and dependability have evened out to a point that almost all cars are on the table. In then end, we are looking for the car that provides the best value for the money, while hitting our wants/needs.

The last couple of weeks we have been narrowing down our options. Mostly, we have these as our chief contenders: Nissan Altima, Toyota Camry, Honda Accord, and the Ford Fusion. We ruled out small SUV's first. I never have liked driving them, and they don't provide the seating comfort that the mid-sized sedans do. My wife has long favored Altimas (the grown up version of our car), but they are a bit dated to me. Camry's are great cars, as well as Accords, but right now they have no cash incentives. With the increase MSRP's to start on both of those, it puts their prices well over the other two. So, it is a battle between Fusions and Altimas.

We went out the last week or so and took a quick look at the dealerships. Both times we were able to sit in the cars, but we haven't gone as far as test drive. Funnily (much like Blacky), I never was pushed on personal info or anything. I'd got my butt chewed back when i was selling if I didn't get info at the least, and not even getting the customer in the building. Anyway, both are nice. It looks like though that getting the Altima in leather will mean jumping to the top trim, and that is priced higher than the Fusion.

Add to that Ragone's gift of a X-plan pin, it is getting pretty clear what we are looking at. Dropping 2-3k before rebates, and not having to fight for it, is sweet.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Don't say that too loud. I don't want Pimpin' Pumpy to come in and bitch slap me for inching into his territory.

I'm watching you.

[Rizon]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

To me though that'd be an instant way to lose any chance of me purchasing from you.

I will NOT give my contact details to a car showroom when looking around for a car, why not - I work from home and have better things to do than answer pointless calls from a car dealership .... if I want to buy from you then I'd be in your dealership writing a cheque, if I'm not then I'm not buying or have gone elsewhere thank you very much.

I HATE pushy salesmen and theres no better way to ensure you lose a sale than to try and 'sell' to me - if I have a question about something I'll ask it, if I don't then leave me to make my own mind up (and for gods sake don't ever try and pretend my be my 'long lost buddy' - yes I realize you're on commission, that doesn't mean you're a prostitute, ease off - I'll buy or I won't).

Same thing with price - if I'm interested in a car then I know what I'll pay - its the price I indicate I'll pay up front, you can pontificate and go and 'discuss things with the manager' all you want (ie. have a quiet cigarette before coming back with a new amount) but ultimately you either say 'yes thats a fair price' or I go elsewhere ... I hate buying cars.

+1

[Ragone]

I hate car dealerships as much as the next guy.. nothing makes decent car companies look bad as dealerships do..

I tend to go later at night.. (around 8-9 pm) after all the salesmen are gone.. Most dealerships in halfway decent areas will leave all the used cars unlocked.. that way you can sit in cars and get a feel for them.. My next car was going to be a ford flex before i saw the 2013 escape.

I have always wondered what car dealerships would be like if car companies had more control of their practices..

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Ragone

I hate car dealerships as much as the next guy.. nothing makes decent car companies look bad as dealerships do..

I tend to go later at night.. (around 8-9 pm) after all the salesmen are gone.. Most dealerships in halfway decent areas will leave all the used cars unlocked.. that way you can sit in cars and get a feel for them.. My next car was going to be a ford flex before i saw the 2013 escape.

I have always wondered what car dealerships would be like if car companies had more control of their practices..

Honestly? I have no idea why they just make dealership's more like retail shops. It has been tried (Saturn, Scion, Carmax for used cars, etc.), but the model just doesn't seem to grow or stick. It is ridiculous that buying a car is more like going to war than an enjoyable major purchase. My guess is the dealers make too much money off the gullible to ever allow a full scale change.

[Ajaxab]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Honestly? I have no idea why they just make dealership's more like retail shops. It has been tried (Saturn, Scion, Carmax for used cars, etc.), but the model just doesn't seem to grow or stick. It is ridiculous that buying a car is more like going to war than an enjoyable major purchase. My guess is the dealers make too much money off the gullible to ever allow a full scale change.

+1 My sister-in-law bought a car a couple of summers ago from a no haggle dealership. The price in the window was the price and that was that. No need to negotiate over a couple hundred bucks here or there. I definitely prefer that to the dance that goes on between customer, sales rep and manager. All that back and forth seems like such a waste of time to me.

[stevew]

The haggle back in forth is where they can lure people into math suicide. It's worth it to them.

[Ragone]

I guess since I have direct employer discount.. I never get to experience shitty dealings.
Because dealerhips know I can go to ford and get them insome trouble..id love it if they'd
All got a saturn type dealership format.. with some tweaks

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

To me though that'd be an instant way to lose any chance of me purchasing from you.

I will NOT give my contact details to a car showroom when looking around for a car, why not - I work from home and have better things to do than answer pointless calls from a car dealership .... if I want to buy from you then I'd be in your dealership writing a cheque, if I'm not then I'm not buying or have gone elsewhere thank you very much.

I HATE pushy salesmen and theres no better way to ensure you lose a sale than to try and 'sell' to me - if I have a question about something I'll ask it, if I don't then leave me to make my own mind up (and for gods sake don't ever try and pretend my be my 'long lost buddy' - yes I realize you're on commission, that doesn't mean you're a prostitute, ease off - I'll buy or I won't).

Same thing with price - if I'm interested in a car then I know what I'll pay - its the price I indicate I'll pay up front, you can pontificate and go and 'discuss things with the manager' all you want (ie. have a quiet cigarette before coming back with a new amount) but ultimately you either say 'yes thats a fair price' or I go elsewhere ... I hate buying cars.

FYI, my last sentence was a bit of hyperbole. But letting a prospect leave the lot without even trying to get some contact information is inexcusable.

[Blackadar]

Car Searching AAR, Part II

We braved a couple of thunderstorms, a cranky 2 year old, Charlotte traffic, Waffle House food and vultures to look for a car last night. What fun. Shoot me now.

CarMax

I wanted to get rid of the old Subaru, so I took it by CarMax. They'll buy almost anything. Frankly, it was a pretty decent experience. We walked in, told them we wanted to sell our car, gave them a bit of information and the keys and let them take it. We returned later and they offered me $1,500 for it. I had already done my research and that was a pretty fair price, so I took it. We went down the hall, signed a couple of documents, waited about 10 minutes and got a Cashier's Check for $1,500. So now we're committed to buying a new car.


Hyundai

It just so happened that we again hit the Hyundai dealership first. This was a different one with a different salesperson. Tom did a pretty good job - showed us the cars, made recommendations, pointed out key features but wasn't overly pushy. He failed to get our contact information, though and forgot to give us his card. That's an unforgivable sin. Grade: D.

Elentra - The Wife took this for a test drive while I entertained the two year old. Again, we both like the car - good room, great gas mileage, etc. She liked driving it too. I think it might be a bit small for long road trips, though and if my son grows into the 6+ footer he's likely to, he might not have as much headroom in the back that he'd need. This is The Wife's top choice and I'm not entirely opposed to it. It's the cheapest of the bunch, Verdict: DEFINITE CANDIDATE.

We ruled out the Tuscon last night. The Wife finally understands that two small SUVs isn't the best way to go.

Kia

The deluge started as we got to the Kia dealer. I hate looking for cars in the freaking rain.

At least we were going against traffic, so the trip to the Kia dealership wasn't bad. Maurice had to deal with the deluge. He really did a fine job of talking about the features, though he probably tried to cover too much. He gave us a card and got our contact information, so that was good. But he talked to me instead of The Wife (or us) and didn't have an umbrella handy. So The Wife was a bit turned off. Grade: D+

Kia Optima - I kind of like this car. It's bigger than the Elentra and is pretty sporty looking for a sedan. It's a bit cheaper than the Camry/Accord and it a bump up from the Elentra class. 200 horsepower under the hood give it a sporty feel and the interior is really well done. It sits close to the ground a bit, but there's plenty of room and it has a decent sized trunk. The Wife wouldn't test drive it (the 2 year old was very rambunctious at this point) partly because she was ticked off at the salesman. I drove it briefly and thought it was pretty damn nice. Verdict: DEFINITE CANDIDATE

Kia Soul - The wife kind of liked the look, so we had Maurice pull this one around as well. It's cute and cheap, but too small in the back seats and has a very small cargo area. Verdict: OUT.

Subaru

We went next door to the Subaru lot. We walked the lot for 10 minutes. Even though the sun was back out, not one person came out to help us. How fucking pathetic was that? So we left. Grade: F----

Subaru Impreza - Since we didn't see one on the lot and after being ignored by the staff, this one is fading fast. Verdict: HANGING ON BY A THREAD.

Ford

Again, the last stop of the night. The salesperson was an older guy - Bob - who was affable, low key and knew his shit. He tried very hard to help us, showed us a couple of cars and even some used car possibilities. He got our contact information, gave us his card and was a true professional. Grade: A

Fusion - I loved the look of the Focus, but it was too small. So I really looked forward to seeing the Fusion. Unfortunately, we were a bit disappointed. Even though it costs $5k more than the Elentra, the interior space wasn't appreciably bigger. As we sat in it, my son commented that this "looks like a Grandpa car". The dash and interior had a lot of buttons (too many) and just didn't have the cool look of the Focus. The Wife took this for a test drive and she said it drove well, but called it "vanilla". That's not a good sign. Verdict: OUT

---

I still want to hit the Honda and Toyota dealers to see the Camry and Accord. I've also started the Internet contacts with a couple of other dealers to see what they're going to do via Internet pricing. The front runner is the Elentra, with the Optima just a hair behind. I'm really interested in seeing the Accord and I know the Camry is a solid choice. The Impreza isn't ruled out yet, but after last night it's on the outside looking in. The Wife is getting tired of car shopping already and probably just wants to buy anything to end the pain.

As an aside, I'm very tempted to call the Sales Manager of the Subaru dealership and let him know why they're not selling cars. Should I?

[GrantDawg]

Call him if you are really interested in the car. He'll probably pull out the red carpet for you next time you come by. Deal with him directly if you want to speed up the buying process. Salesmen actually have no power when it comes to negotiations. They are more like a lawyer for both parties, urging you to take the deal, begging the sales manger to give a price you'll like. Deal with the sales manger directly during the negotiation, and you'll save yourself the back and forth.

I feel for Maurice. I remember those rain days, and having to run out in the deluge trying to find and bring up cars. Sold some cars that way, but it was even more frustrating when you go through that and the person drives off.

The "not getting info" thing is so weird. I wonder if they have pushed salesmen to change tactics? Try really hard not to seem "pushy?" I know our commission checks very much depended on customer survey responses. Maybe they were getting too many complaints back on salesmen being overly aggresive in calling, and stop pushing getting the info on every "looky-loo?" But more then likely it is just we are running into lazy salesmen that don't care unless you are "buying today." I was trained that everyone that walked on the lot would buy today if I did my job (sort of unfair and stupid), but I did sell to plenty of people that said they weren't plan on buying for awhile. If a customer likes you, wants the product, and has means, they will buy.

[wade moore]

Elentra - The Wife took this for a test drive while I entertained the two year old. Again, we both like the car - good room, great gas mileage, etc. She liked driving it too. I think it might be a bit small for long road trips, though and if my son grows into the 6+ footer he's likely to, he might not have as much headroom in the back that he'd need. This is The Wife's top choice and I'm not entirely opposed to it. It's the cheapest of the bunch, Verdict: DEFINITE CANDIDATE.

If you start considering this more seriously, let me know if you have questions. Like I said, I just bought one in December. I may not always check this thread, so you may need to PM me to alert me to it.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Hyundai

It just so happened that we again hit the Hyundai dealership first. This was a different one with a different salesperson. Tom did a pretty good job - showed us the cars, made recommendations, pointed out key features but wasn't overly pushy. He failed to get our contact information, though and forgot to give us his card. That's an unforgivable sin. Grade: D.

Elentra - The Wife took this for a test drive while I entertained the two year old. Again, we both like the car - good room, great gas mileage, etc. She liked driving it too. I think it might be a bit small for long road trips, though and if my son grows into the 6+ footer he's likely to, he might not have as much headroom in the back that he'd need. This is The Wife's top choice and I'm not entirely opposed to it. It's the cheapest of the bunch, Verdict: DEFINITE CANDIDATE.

I guess it depends on your definition of long trip-

Ours has been used 3 times on "out of town" trips, where we normally would have used the "bigger" car.

Back when it was a pretty new car, my wife and I used it for a trip to/from Columbus, from Pittsburgh. About 360 miles round trip, and nearly made it on one tank of gas because it was nearly all highway driving.

My wife used it once to go to Baltimore to visit her brother/sister in law when they had their first kid and had no complaints.

In February I used it to go to Cleveland when my son decided he wanted to watch a "real" (read NBA) basketball game.

In all my cases, only 2 passengers, but the trunk is pretty big on that car, and you've got a solid 5-8 years before the little guy is complaining about sitting in back all the time.

Because outside of those few trips mentioned above, it was mainly used to/from the hospital for my wife to work (12 mile round trip) our 2001 model has only about 40,000 miles on it. I tell my 8 year old daughter she'll be learning to drive on it, because we'll still have it in 2020!

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Suburban Rhythm

I guess it depends on your definition of long trip-

550 miles or so.

Originally Posted by Suburban Rhythm

In all my cases, only 2 passengers, but the trunk is pretty big on that car, and you've got a solid 5-8 years before the little guy is complaining about sitting in back all the time.

4 passengers, including a 2 year old. But the "little guy" may top 6 feet within two years. He went from a size 6 to a size 9 shoe in the last 6 months.

[stevew]

I know you don't want another SUV, but the new CRV is really nice. My parents picked up a one year old model with low mileage a few months back. I hear the mileage on the newest version is even better.

[GrantDawg]

Tonight, the wife and I ran buy the Ol' Hyundai dealership. It was sort of fun, because it was the same lot that the Toyota dealership was were I used to work. The actual plan was to just drive by to allow the wife (who just wasn't that interested in a Hyundai) to have look at the Elantra, Sonata, and the Sante Fe, then drive to Toyota to test drive a Camry. We wanted a Sante Fe back when they first came out, and a couple of people we know just recently bought new ones. We are strongly leaning Fusion, but we want to do due diligence and make sure that is the right car for us.

So, we drove through and I pointed out the different cars. I am guessing she still thought "cheap and ugly" when she thought Hyundai, but after seeing a few she said "park." We were being tracked as we rode around by an old guy, and I knew were going to get jumped the second we got out. Our salesman was Gray, and he was a nice guy. He's been in car sales for years, but only here a few weeks (moved here with the sales manager, which is common in car sales). He let us look and drive and actually didn't even ask for our information till we were leaving.

First vehicle to look at was the Santa Fe. It was Limited, with everything but the sun-roof. Pricey (remember, Hyundai has zip on rebates), but not scream and run, price wise. We tripped him out when we both got in the back seat first thing. My wife is just freaking out on the back seat thing. She still wasn't overly impressed with the size. I really think she has in mind the old car, huge back seats. I finally told her "look, we can get a monster back seat if you want. But then we are going to have get a boat like a Expedition, and neither of us wants to drive anything that big around." I think I might have eased her up a little on fixating on one unrealistic thing.

We didn't drive the Santa Fe, because in the end we just don't want a SUV. They are just not nearly as fun to drive (to me) as a car. I've never been a fan, and she never has either. That'll probably the last time throwing those in the mix.

Next, I drove the 2013 Sonata Hybrid. Fully loaded minus sunroof and Nav, priced at 28K MSRP. Not a bad price for a hybrid, but you know going in they move very little on them. It really wasn't that impressive a drive either. It doesn't have the CVT that most other Hybrids carry, and it makes the ride feel awkward. The gas millage also wasn't that big a jump from the regular Sonata. All-in-all, a pass.

I then tried a Sonata GLS with the 2.4l 4-banger. It drove well (though not OMG! fantastic). The interior looks nice, and seems roomy and comfortable. We also sat in a 2.0T limited that I really liked. The panoramic sunroof is pretty nice, but it is on the high side of what we want to spend (30k+). The Sonata was just a due diligence look, but is now definitely in the running.

Tomorrow, Toyota gets its visit that was eaten by Hyundai today. We will look at Camry, and the Tacoma 4-door (I have always loved them, but I doubt the wife is going to let me have one).

[Blackadar]

Time to catch up on the AAR.

Wednesday

Car visits, Round 3. No rain this time, thankfully.

Subaru

The Wife wanted to go see an Impreza 5 door rather than the 4 door we test drove. So I placed a call to Ralph and back we went. Ralph's low key demeanor was the right approach, he talked to The Wife and he even realized that he forgot to get our contact information. Much better. Grade: A-

Impreza 5 Door - It drives just like the 4 door, but has a hatchback. The Wife likes the look, but I think it looks like a station wagon. I wasn't impressed with the finishes nor the depth of the cargo area, but she likes it, so it's a CONTENDER.


Honda

I had spoken with the Internet Sales Manager at Honda, so she had a younger sales girl - Kristin - working with us. She was good. Very good. She made a point of not just pointing out the features on the car, but pointing out the ones a mother of two would like. Very knowledgeable, very smooth and very well done. Grade: A+

Accord - The Wife likes. A lot. Roomy, drives well, decent pickup, ok gas mileage, large trunk, the interior looks ok, etc. There's not much to not like. I'm not a big fan of the ivory cloth seats (they look like drapes to me) and the wheel wells come in a bit far in the trunk, but that's about it. Verdict: DEFINITE CONTENDER.


Toyota

We drew an older sales lady that reminded me of the chain-smoking chick in Beetlejuice. Not a particularly good image.



She did concentrate on The Wife, but to the exclusion of me. Not exactly the best way to get the business, but better to ignore me than The Wife. She did get some contact information, but when someone wants to look at a car and the best you can do is say "there's one in the showroom", that's not very helpful. She did better later on, but first impressions are everything. Grade: C+

Camry - The test drive was pretty much like driving the Accord, though I think The Wife likes the Accord a touch more. The Camry's styling isn't impressive inside or out, but from a driving and functional standpoint it's hard to beat. A bit vanilla, but still a CONTENDER.

[Blackadar]

Wednesday Night

Had a knockdown fight with The Wife about the cars. She started complaining that I was "running her ragged". Needless to say, I blew a fuse considering that:

1. It's a car for her
2. I'm the one coming home from work and giving up my free time to go look while she's at home all day.
3. If she could make a decision I wouldn't have had to visit half of the dealerships we've gone to.
4. If she was going to complain, I'd go buy whatever the fuck I wanted.

She decided that complaining wasn't the best option.

Then she started talking about the Hyundai Tacoma and I blew fuse #2. We've been to the Hyundai dealerships twice and she hasn't bothered to test drive one, now she wants to go back a third time?!? Oh hellllllll no.

After a time out for both of us, we started whittling down the list.

The final 4

Honda Accord
Subaru Impreza 5 Door
Hyundai Elantra
Kia Optima

Time to find a way to get rid of a couple of these options.

[Blackadar]

Thursday

I've got to narrow that list a bit.

I don't play games with dealers, well at least not the way they want to play games. I tell all of them the same thing. They need to make money on this deal. But I'm going to ask for their best price up front for a car I'm buying in the next 24 hours. If I think it's fair, then we'll deal. If I think they're holding back, I'll shop it. If I find they're holding back, I'll buy from someone else because I don't like being lied to. Everyone gets one shot and one shot only. All quotes need to be OUT THE DOOR pricing. I know the car dealers hate that shit, but it's worth it for me. Plus, it's a great source of entertainment for me. I love doing this. Hehe!

Virtually all of these are base models. I'm not much into bells and whistles.

Impreza

The dealer indicated that the 5 door was in high demand. It should be the 2nd cheapest car and needs to be, given the interior issues and the small depth of the trunk area. So let's see how willing they are to deal. I give Ralph The Speech and ask him to go get pricing. He comes back with his "best" pricing within the hour. Quote: $21,101 plus tax, title and fees. Sorry Ralph, that's not out the door pricing. Plus, it's too damn high by about $2,000. Impreza is OUT.

And then there were three...

Optima

Dealer 1 - I called a dealer in Salisbury to get pricing. Gave him the speech, got back their "best" number. $21,600 OTD. Not bad, but not what I was expecting. A bit high.

AAA - To compare that quote, I decided to use the AAA buying service. Gave them the same specs and had them quote the Optima. $22,100. Not even close.

Dealer 2 - I've looked online and I know what decent OTD pricing should look like on the Optima. I haven't seen it yet. So even though this was the dealer that pissed off the wife, I gave them a call back. I got pricing back within the hour. $20,774.74. That's more like it.


Honda

Dealer 1 - This is the dealer The Wife really liked. They gave me a great price right off the bat. $20,970.

Dealer 2 - There's always at least one that fucks around. This one was it. I called them, gave them the script and said I'd like to buy from them as they're closer. Their initial price: $22,900. Thanks, but no. 5 minutes later I hear from the Curtis sales manager asking what they can do. The conversation went something like this:

Me: I asked for your best quote up front. You told me $22,900. I guess you don't want or need the business.

Curtis: What do you mean?

Me: Curtis, I just received a quote from AAA (little fib) for the same Honda for $20,900. You're $2,000 high. That's not even close.

Curtis: Um...what if we beat that by $250?

Me: Curtis, I wish you would have because I'd have purchased from you tonight. But I don't do business that way and that's what I told your sales rep when I called. Your quote is $22,900 and that's not getting you the business. Thank you for your time.

Curtis hung up on me...then called me back 3 more times. I'm not answering.


Elantra

Dealer 1 - This is the the first dealership we went to. I gave Mark the speech and had him go get pricing. $19,600. Not even close, Mark. That car isn't worth over $18,500.

Dealer 2 - Gave Tom the speech. He got back to me within the hour. $19,171. Again, not good enough.

Elantra is OUT.

---
Last two standing:
Honda Accord
Kia Optima

Time to sleep on it.

---

1:00 AM. I can't sleep. I'm tossing and turning. I'm forgetting something.

Ah-ha!

Susan, my salesgirl, can get good deals on the Camry. Or so she claims...like *very* good deals. The Wife liked the Camry almost as much as the Accord. If she can get it for $20k or so AND since Toyota is having 0% financing, that'd knock off about $1,600 or so from the overall cost of the car over the next couple of years. For $1,600 less, I'll take a Camry over the Accord/Optima.

So I knock out an email to her. She'll chase that rabbit for me in the morning.

So then there were three? Maybe? We'll see....

[gstelmack]

My last 3 cars I bought by getting Internet quotes. I did all my research to figure out what car I wanted, then just went on the websites to request quotes. In every case those quotes have been at or under the Consumer Reports car quote service, and matched what we expected. We did a final test drive to make sure we were sure, then made sure to say "no" to everything the guy who actually does the financing asked me if I wanted, which is the longest part of the entire process. Very smooth and easy, just a bit time consuming to complete the actual purchase.

My car before that was a Ford Ranger, that I ended up buying after a miserable experience (just before Internet buying became common). I stuck to my guns on price, we were ready to walk when they finally met it (they couldn't believe I wouldn't budge at all from what I said I wanted to pay), and I did the math later to figure out that every other offer involved them essentially stealing my trade. I will NEVER go through that again, and getting Internet quotes means I just have to deal with saying "no" to all the after-market addons they want to gouge me with. I will never buy from that dealer again.

[GrantDawg]

You both are on the right track with how to deal with a dealer. Internet pricing is good (though that will depend on the dealer), and I do the exact same thing Blacky does.Get the out-the-door price. If not, then you start a whole new round of fighting when you see the bottom line, and they have added $800 in doc fess, $500 in ad fess, etc. etc.

What I mean by "it depends on the dealer" is this. When I was selling, my dealership was not a high volume dealership. Most high volume dealerships depend on turn over for their profits much more than profit-per-sale. If they can make money on the sale, it is gravy. But they get more money on hitting manufacturer's quotas, and getting the big bonus checks. Smaller dealers really depend more on getting a profit-per-sale. So, they'll tell you anything to get you in the door (including bald-face lying which I was told to do on numerous occasions), then try to screw you hard once they had you. That I couldn't take, and why I left when I did.

If you want to buy from a lower volume dealer, always do it at the end of the month. They will have their best incentive to come down on the price either to hit a quota, or because manufacturers are more likely to offer dealer cash to franchises on holidays or at the end of the month.

Take for instance the Hyundai dealership I was dealing with. You could tell they where low-volume (they had two salesmen on duty, and only one sales manager). They also had the little "greed stickers" on every window (that is the add-on sticker that is beside the window-sticker. It usually a bunch of made up fees and add-ons to drive up the price). I know they are not going to give me the best price from the get-go, unless I play hard and start the negotiation near the end of the month. If the Sonata ends up being our target car, then I'm going to hit them around the Memorial day weekend (best chance on dealer incentives), and hit a big Hyundai dealer at the same time.

And on the wife thing, Blacky. I am having the same problems as you, and it always seems like we have this problem around major purchases. We nearly got into a fight at the Hyundai lot, until I did my "come to Jesus" speech. I really think it comes down to the fact that even though my wife wants a new car and knows we have to get a new car, she is scared of buying one. Every major purchase is like this. Says she wants one thing, and then makes up three contradicting things to make it nearly impossible to make a decision. I try to make her happy, but in the end it will be up to me to put my foot down and make the decision. I hate it, but that is life with a woman.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Thursday

I don't play games with dealers, well at least not the way they want to play games. I tell all of them the same thing. They need to make money on this deal. But I'm going to ask for their best price up front for a car I'm buying in the next 24 hours. If I think it's fair, then we'll deal. If I think they're holding back, I'll shop it. If I find they're holding back, I'll buy from someone else because I don't like being lied to. Everyone gets one shot and one shot only. All quotes need to be OUT THE DOOR pricing. I know the car dealers hate that shit, but it's worth it for me. Plus, it's a great source of entertainment for me. I love doing this. Hehe!

That's the key, loving the experience. I get why many people hate it but I happen enjoy car shopping. I go in knowing I don't have to buy a damn thing, the pressure is all on them.

[JeeberD]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

I love my Honda Accord but I splurged for the V6 since it felt so much better than the 4 cylinder, and quieter.

Yup, I bought a V6 Accord a little over a year ago, and I love it. Go for the Honda, Blacky!

[Flasch186]

I love the oomph it has when needing to "hit it". I swear its like a luxury car to me.

[GrantDawg]

Tonight was Toyota night. Our salesman William (who didn't get our info. This is getting pretty funny) was nice and patient as we checked out the Camry, Rav4, and the Tacoma. Was not impressed with the RAV4. Of course, as mentioned before we are not SUV fans, so not a surprise. Really need to stop wasting time looking at them.

Speaking of wasting time, the Tacoma. I love them. I have always loved. This is what I want. But the Evil Chief won't let me have one. At least I got to enjoy driving one again. *sigh*

The Camry is solid. Enjoyed driving, riding, looking at these. We test drove the LE, but I think if this is the car it will be SE we go with. Better suspension, better look, very little price difference. The wife liked the Camry better than the Sonata, so the Sonata is out.

Still have the Altima and Fusion to go.

[GrantDawg]

What happened Blackadder? Inquiring minds want to know.

We pulled the trigger today. This is what we are buying:

http://www.inventory.ford.com/servic...51189&refid=FV

Hopefully that worked. It is a Ford Fusion Sport. 6-speed automatic V6, black on black. It is very nicely loaded.

We can't pick it up till Monday, because the dealer that had it in stock closed early. I am so excited to get it that I can't wait.

Why did we get it? Well, the wife decided this morning that she didn't really care about the Altima, and was ready to decide between the Camry and the Fusion. All that was left was the test drive and see how good a price we could get with Ragone's X-plan pin. I called the local dealer and talked to Kristie. I told her straight up we were coming in to test drive and make a decision, but I also told her I was pretty sure (by internet search) that they didn't have exactly what I wanted. I gave her the specifics, and asked her to find me a SEL and a Sport that was black on black, and give me the X-plan price.

We pulled up an hour later, and Kristie greeted us with the invoice in hand on the two cars she found. The price difference between the two was about $1800 (or basically the cost difference between a 4 or 6). The sport also had a couple of features the SEL didn't. In the end, I decided I wanted the Sport. Mainly because a) better suspension (like the Camry we were looking at), b) better transmission (there has been a history of problems with the trans they use in all the trims but the Sport). c) it is a freaking cool car.

By the time she used the X-plan and added the rebates, we were at $5,300 under invoice (or roughly what the Camry would have cost us with the 4-banger). They added free oil changes for life to counter the three year oil changes that Toyota is offering. Add on Ford financing deal, yeah. I feel pretty good about the purchase.

Now I'm driving a loaner SE till my car is ready. MONDAY COME!!!

[Ragone]

X-plan is a helluva deal, Fully Loaded fusions are really really nice.. i'm honestly thinking about getting a fusion hybrid myself...

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Ragone

X-plan is a helluva deal, Fully Loaded fusions are really really nice.. i'm honestly thinking about getting a fusion hybrid myself...

Was tempted. I like the idea of a hybrid, and the Fusion hybrid gets high marks on handling and such. But the wife doesn't like the room you give up for the battery. We don't do extended city riding, so we wouldn't have gotten the best out of the mileage anyway.

[Ragone]

I'm kinda waiting to see how they also do the hybrid battery in the 2013 escapes..

[Blackadar]

And the winner is....



...a 2012 charcoal Toyota Camry LE.

Huh? But...but...the Camry didn't even make the final 4?

Here's what transpired Friday. My sales girl (Susan) came in Friday and placed a call to one of her contacts at the Toyota dealership. It seems that her contact left, so she got a new sales person. She told him the car and the price and told him she needed a response fast since I was taking the afternoon off to go buy a car.

And she waited...and waited...and waited. 11:30 comes around and the guy (Joe) finally calls her back. Joe gives her a song and dance about how he doesn't do business that way, that we needed to come in...and before you know it, she was in a full-blown argument with Joe. It ended with "well, he'll just go buy the Accord", to which Joe responded "well, enjoy your Honda then!". Rather unprofessional, don't you think? At this point, we're going to the Honda dealership. Interestingly enough, I bought my RAV4 from the same Toyota dealership and my sales guy was named Joe...it couldn't be the same guy, could it?

But Susan is a Toyota fanatic and she knows the sales manager, so she fires off an email to the manager just blasting Joe. Within 5 minutes, she gets a call back and the guy is rather apologetic. Susan has directed a lot of business their way and this guy doesn't want to piss her off. So he takes the lead personally and calls back 15 minutes later with a OTD price on a LE with power seats and one of those cool auto-dimming mirrors...$21,312. Oh, and 0.0% financing for 48 months and two years' free service.

Oh my. Not bad.

I start doing the calculations in my head and the 'yota is cheaper than the Accord and the Optima for a better model. The wife liked the Camry and had a hard time picking between the Accord and the Camry. Alright, we'll come down and test drive it. If that goes ok, we're buying it.

So an hour and a half later I'm at the dealership with The Wife in tow. Since the sales mgr has the day off, I'm working with a new sales guy - Dave. Joe is out. So is the Beetlejuice lady. The Wife sits in the Camry, likes the power seats and the look. I take it for a test drive and I think it's probably fine. So we pull back into the dealership and I say, "ok, let's get this done".

We all go back inside and Dave goes to get the paperwork. He comes back with a number - $23,500 without taxes, tags, destination fee, etc. Uh, Dave, you didn't get the memo. I explain what's up and he looks confused - that price is "too low". I tell Dave to go call the sales mgr at home. Two minutes later, Dave is back and apologizing. He's going to get the right paperwork drawn up.

As I'm sitting there, Joe spots me and comes over to greet me. "Hey man, how are you doing? Buying another Toyota? Why didn't you come see me?" I gingerly explain that his blow-up this morning was over my deal and Joe turns rather pale. He stammers his way out of the conversation and then won't look at me the rest of the time I'm there.

So we get the paperwork done, I say "no" to all the extended warranties and stuff from the financing guy and we're out with a new Toyota Camry. It wouldn't have been my top choice, but it's a great car, looks ok, does everything she needs it to do and has a few gadgets she can play with. The Wife loves it and I was duly rewarded for my efforts...last night.

PS - Curtis at the Honda dealership that screwed around on the pricing called me back again. He asked me what I bought. I couldn't resist...so I told him a Honda Accord at another dealership. He hung up.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

PS - Curtis at the Honda dealership that screwed around on the pricing called me back again. He asked me what I bought. I couldn't resist...so I told him a Honda Accord at another dealership. He hung up.

Lol! Congrats on the car. Solid choice.

[wade moore]

Just my $.02.

I find the idea of eliminating a car because the dealer didn't give you their "best price" from the get-go to be very weird.

Would you like them to do that? Sure, but that's just not how it works. You should pick the car based on what you like and what the best deal you can negotiate to imo. This weird view that they should somehow meet your demands of "the best price" from the get and you just eliminate them otherwise is silly.

So Toyota gets a benefit cause you have some connection, even if Honda or whomever would have ended up there anyways? Toyota got a chance to make counter offers, and the other dealers didn't. Idano, just strange to me.

To each his own though.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Just my $.02.

I find the idea of eliminating a car because the dealer didn't give you their "best price" from the get-go to be very weird.

Would you like them to do that? Sure, but that's just not how it works. You should pick the car based on what you like and what the best deal you can negotiate to imo. This weird view that they should somehow meet your demands of "the best price" from the get and you just eliminate them otherwise is silly.

So Toyota gets a benefit cause you have some connection, even if Honda or whomever would have ended up there anyways? Toyota got a chance to make counter offers, and the other dealers didn't. Idano, just strange to me.

To each his own though.

That might work if you feel strongly about a particular automobile. For example, if I was going to buy a sportscar for $30k or so, I know that'd be a Subaru WRX without question. So yeah, I'd be working on getting the best price for that particular vehicle.

But The Wife doesn't feel that strongly about cars and in the market space we were looking in, there are many good choices. There's little to differentiate between an Accord, a Sentry, a Optima, a Sonata, an Altima, Fusion or half a dozen other cars. Once you start tossing out cars for poorer reviews or other known quantities, you're still left with a pool of cars all of which would be more than acceptable. And if you don't have a strong feeling about any of them, then it most certainly does come down to the combination of the "best car at the best price". In this case, that was the Camry.

The same thing happened when I was choosing between the RAV4 and the CR-V. I had a slight preference for the Honda, but either one was more than acceptable. Both had great rankings, similar looks, gas mileage, blah blah blah. So when the Toyota dealer offered me a better deal, that's the one I took. It works to my benefit if I'm not hung up on a particular make/model car.

FYI, if I had been the one choosing, I'd have picked the Optima. I liked the styling a bit more and the extra horsepower appealed to me. But I think the Camry was the more comfortable choice for The Wife. I think if the cars/finances had been closer to equal, then she would have taken the Accord. But when I get $1,500 more car and save $350 over the life of the loan, it's a no-brainer.

---

Also, in this case the dealer was eliminated and not the car. Hey, if someone tells me their best price is $X and then they come back and say it was really $X - $2,500, you might look at it as a negotiation. I don't. I look at that as a lie. It's one thing to hold a bit back for final negotiation, it's another thing to try to stick it to the consumer. That may be their job, but I'm the customer and I don't have to play by their rules.

[Flasch186]

I dont know I also find it hypocritical that you would lie to them but not be ok with them lying back. {shrug} Im happy you got a new car and Im happy you got some nice returns last night.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

---

Also, in this case the dealer was eliminated and not the car. Hey, if someone tells me their best price is $X and then they come back and say it was really $X - $2,500, you might look at it as a negotiation. I don't. I look at that as a lie. It's one thing to hold a bit back for final negotiation, it's another thing to try to stick it to the consumer. That may be their job, but I'm the customer and I don't have to play by their rules.

But isn't that exactly what happened with the Toyota dealer you ended up with?

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by wade moore

But isn't that exactly what happened with the Toyota dealer you ended up with?

No. That was just the sales guy not being clued in by his boss as to the already-negotiated final price.