HoF or Not? Adrian Beltre

[EagleFan]

Not, I can go to my local softball beer league and find better.

[britrock88]

Eh, I'm on the fence...

[rowech]

Would be interesting to do a similar poll for Scott Rolen. My guess is Rolen would get more votes but I think Beltre is the better player. Not 100% sure on that. In any case, at some point people need to realize that the bar is being set ridiculously high and some great third basemen continue to be shutout out of the hall because people seem to think third basement should be more than they usually end up being.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by rowech

Would be interesting to do a similar poll for Scott Rolen. My guess is Rolen would get more votes but I think Beltre is the better player. Not 100% sure on that. In any case, at some point people need to realize that the bar is being set ridiculously high and some great third basemen continue to be shutout out of the hall because people seem to think third basement should be more than they usually end up being.

I would guess you're right about Rolen polling higher than Beltre, yet it seems hard to argue that Beltre hasn't had a better career.

Based off of HoF standards, both should be elected.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Based off of HoF standards, both should be elected.

Rolen? Seriously? Neither are Hall of Fame caliber.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Rolen? Seriously? Neither are Hall of Fame caliber.

Based off of 3rd basemen already in the Hall, both are absolutely HoF caliber. Rolen is a bit below the average HoF 3B in terms of hitting, but his fielding should more than make up for it. Beltre is right around the average HoF 3B for hitting, and he's similarly considered an outstanding fielder. Both have post career and 7-year peak WAR values that exceed the average HoF 3B.

[Atocep]

Comparing Beltre to HoF 3rd basemen: would be 3rd in HR, 4th in hits, 4th in RBI, and 5th in Runs scored. He's also 12th all time among all 3rd basemen in WARP (despite WARP greatly underrating his defense).

[Logan]

These two last posts sound like the upcoming WRs in the NFL HOF debate.

[EagleFan]

Those two names don't belong in the same breath as Mike Schmidt, Wade Boggs, Brooks Robinson, George Brett, Eddie Mathews, Jimmy Collins...

They don't pass the eye test; and that is what should be important for HoF.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

They don't pass the eye test; and that is what should be important for HoF.

... Are you involved in parody?

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Those two names don't belong in the same breath as Mike Schmidt, Wade Boggs, Brooks Robinson, George Brett, Eddie Mathews, Jimmy Collins...

They don't pass the eye test; and that is what should be important for HoF.

Ah, Wade Boggs! Goes down smooth!

[rowech]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Those two names don't belong in the same breath as Mike Schmidt, Wade Boggs, Brooks Robinson, George Brett, Eddie Mathews, Jimmy Collins...

They don't pass the eye test; and that is what should be important for HoF.

I would be curious where you are on Santo being in. Most people view it as a terrible injustice that was righted when he got in. Rolen and Beltre are at his level or better so if you would argue Santo should be in, I'm not sure how you can argue against Rolen or Beltre. I'll also say that both are better than Jimmy Collins, and fairly easily at that.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by rowech

I would be curious where you are on Santo being in. Most people view it as a terrible injustice that was righted when he got in. Rolen and Beltre are at his level or better so if you would argue Santo should be in, I'm not sure how you can argue against Rolen or Beltre. I'll also say that both are better than Jimmy Collins, and fairly easily at that.

Left Santo off my list of names for that reason, don't think he belongs in the Hall.

Jimmy Collins was the best third baseman of his time. How can you say that they are better than him? Also add in the fact that he managed the Red Sox to the first world series title.

[ISiddiqui]

Because Collins is highly overrated and actually isn't that great of a 3B? I'll take Beltre or Rolen over Collins any day.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Left Santo off my list of names for that reason, don't think he belongs in the Hall.

Jimmy Collins was the best third baseman of his time. How can you say that they are better than him? Also add in the fact that he managed the Red Sox to the first world series title.

It's pretty easy using the statistics designed to compare players across eras. Now you'll say, you don't put much or any credence to said statistics and we will be at the same place we are now. He was supposed to be revolutionary in how he played defensively and he was the best of his era but he was not as good as Rolen or Beltre.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Because Collins is highly overrated and actually isn't that great of a 3B? I'll take Beltre or Rolen over Collins any day.

Here's your sign...

[ISiddiqui]

Hey I'm not the numbnuts who said the eye test is the important thing for the HOF!

People who are highly influential in one thing or another are always overrated compared to their actual worth. Collins, for instance, has 20 fewer WAR over his career than both Beltre and Rollins (and yes, before you mention it, in the HOF, longevity does count for something).

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by rowech

It's pretty easy using the statistics designed to compare players across eras.

Not really, when the game has changed a LOT since then.

[ISiddiqui]

Yes, actually it is. Even with the game changing. That's what some of those stats are expressly created to deal with.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Jimmy Collins was the best third baseman of his time. How can you say that they are better than him? Also add in the fact that he managed the Red Sox to the first world series title.

Who do you think is the best 3rd basemen of the last 20 years?

[lighthousekeeper]

relevant information: beltre just surpassed brooks robinson in career WAR.

[Scarecrow]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Who do you think is the best 3rd basemen of the last 20 years?

Chipper Jones says Hi!

[cartman]

An article today from 538

Adrian Beltre Is Hall Of Fame Worthy | FiveThirtyEight

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Scarecrow

Chipper Jones says Hi!

May be hard to believe, but Chipper is only slightly ahead of Beltre in career WAR - another couple of good seasons from Beltre and he could pass him.

[ISiddiqui]

This is the ridiculously amazing part (from the 538 link):

And defensively, Beltre’s advanced numbers are among the best ever. Per defensive WAR (dWAR) and defensive runs saved above average (DRAA),3 Beltre is the second-best defensive third baseman in baseball history. Only Brooks Robinson, whom Reds manager Sparky Anderson had nightmares about after Robinson’s unforgettable defensive performance in the 1970 World Series, ranks better. According to dWAR, only 19 other players (across all positions) in baseball history were more valuable defensively than Beltre has been.

The defender most like Beltre at this point is Mazeroski, who made it to the Hall almost entirely on his defense. Beltre, by contrast, combines Mazeroski-like defense with vastly superior offensive stats and greater durability.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

This is the ridiculously amazing part (from the 538 link):

I can certainly buy that he's an elite defender after watching him for several seasons in Seattle, but I'm really looking forward to hit tracker type data being mature for a few years and providing even better ways of measuring defensive range and throwing arms and whatnot.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

May be hard to believe, but Chipper is only slightly ahead of Beltre in career WAR - another couple of good seasons from Beltre and he could pass him.

They're closer in value than most probably think. How close really comes down to whether you believe Chipper was atrocious defensively or merely bad.

[cartman]

He hit career HR #400 tonight.

[cuervo72]

Another chart which shows how under-appreciated Bobby Grich was.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Another chart which shows how under-appreciated Bobby Grich was.

That's because he stole Christmas

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Danny

That's because he stole Christmas

This needs more love right here.

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

May be hard to believe, but Chipper is only slightly ahead of Beltre in career WAR - another couple of good seasons from Beltre and he could pass him.

Interestingly, after yesterday's game Beltre now has exactly the same number of hits and doubles as his HOF benchmark - Chipper Jones.

There's no doubt now that Beltre's bound for the hall.

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Those two names don't belong in the same breath as Mike Schmidt, Wade Boggs, Brooks Robinson, George Brett, Eddie Mathews, Jimmy Collins...

They don't pass the eye test; and that is what should be important for HoF.

Bumped on the occasion of Beltre passing George Brett in career WAR yesterday. Now only Mike Schmidt, Eddie Mathews, Wade Boggs (and ARod) are higher.

[cartman]

His off the field stuff has been HoF worthy for a while. This is from a couple of nights ago. Odor had made a couple of boneheaded base running mistakes. On this play, it should have been runners on 1st and 3rd with one out, but Odor got thrown out trying to stretch it into a double. Beltre scored with a hit on the next at bat, and he gave Odor this "teachable moment" when he got back to the dugout. On his next at-bat, Odor hit a walkoff home run, and after the game he thanked Beltre for helping him see the error of his ways.

[Atocep]

This season should move him into 1st ballot discussion.

[MrBug708]

Baseball HOF doesn't quite work that way. Football does though

[tarcone]

Nope. Not a HoFer yet.

[dawgfan]

I have faith the electorate for the baseball Hall of Fame has become sophisticated enough now that it won't take very long for Beltre to get in. He's above the average HoF 3B already, and he's showing no signs of slowing down.

[ISiddiqui]

It'd be mind boggling if Beltre wasn't in the Hall of Fame. As of right now, he's 46th in WAR all time, just above George Brett.

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

It'd be mind boggling if Beltre wasn't in the Hall of Fame. As of right now, he's 46th in WAR all time, just above George Brett.

Clemens and Bonds say 'hi'.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by lighthousekeeper

Clemens and Bonds say 'hi'.

It should go without saying, but while there were suspicions about Beltre juicing after his big 48 HR year in 2004, there's never been a credible report actually linking him to a failed test or to an outfit or distributor like BALCO. The evidence that Bonds juiced is overwhelming, and the case is very strong against Clemens as well.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

It'd be mind boggling if Beltre wasn't in the Hall of Fame. As of right now, he's 46th in WAR all time, just above George Brett.

Unless he retires this offseason he'll eclipse 3000 hits & move into 3rd all-time amongst 3B in WAR. Even with some decline if he has two more solid seasons he'll threaten 500 HR's and be #2 in 3B WAR, and top 30 overall. At this point I assume people who say no are trolling.

Heard an interesting what-if the other day. Allegedly Theo & the Red Sox went hard after him before he signed in Seattle, but wanted him to play SS for a year before moving back to 3B... Replace those 5 Safeco seasons with Fenway-inflated stats & put him in the middle of the Sox/Yankees wars that dominated national media (a.k.a. ESPN) for a time & maybe he'd have the recognition he deserves!

[dawgfan]

Figured this was a good spot for this:



I miss Beltre...

[cartman]

He's hit a few big milestones over the past couple of weeks. He's the 6th MLBer to hit these three marks:

5,000 total bases
600 doubles
450 home runs

[stevew]

I lol'd

Beltre tossed in strange sequence - ESPN Video

[Logan]

Originally Posted by stevew

I lol'd

Beltre tossed in strange sequence - ESPN Video

Deserves to be in the HoF just for this.

[Chief Rum]

That's hilarious.

I wonder why all parties cared? Why did Beltre have to do his warmups in that spot and why the ump was upset at where he was?

[MrBug708]

I think there is a gamesmanship aspect where he is because he can get a better view of the pitcher

[Danny]

He's been great this year while healthy. Just keeps on ticking. He is an easy HoF choice and anything he adds to it is a just a bonus.

[cartman]

On Sept. 8th, the Rangers will have a ceremony to honor Beltre joining the 3000 hit club, with fans attending the game receiving a Beltre3K hat.

On the 9th, they've announced the first 15,000 fans will receive a miniature on-deck circle mouse pad.