Duke lacrosse thugs?

[Wolfpack]

I've been reading some of the boards back home and the press is starting to pick up on some discrepancies at least related to the 911 call about slurs being tossed at passers-by. Apparently, the call was made and then some minutes later the cops showed up (there was apparently one in the vicinity) and did not find any caller in the area. They checked out the house in question and found it quiet with no one responding inside. There were indications of a party on visual inspection and a canvasing of near neighbors confirmed it. What's it mean? Directly to the case itself, probably not much, but speculation is now forming that the 911 call was bogused by the victim's friend to start the ball rolling.

Here's the Durham Herald-Sun on the call.

More critical is the fact that police are beginning to question timelines. The case isn't unravelling yet, but there are some loose strands to be dealt with.

Durham H-S on timelines and possible problems with it.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Certainly, the government won't be able to make any sort of an argument like this to the jury--or even a hint of an argument like this.

And it is . . . bad form to announce it in public. I don't know if I would go as far as to say that it is unethical, but it is certainly unprofessional.

I think that the DA here is pissed because the kids had the sense to lawyer up before he could get a quick and cheap confession (or even a sense of what happened) from them. And they didn't just lawyer up with a public defender. I am sure that they got the best lawyer that their mommie and daddy could buy (and, seeing as they go to Duke, that would be a pretty expensive lawyer).

Duke aside, Durham is a rough town. The DA is probably spends 95% of his time dealing with drug and murder suspects. So he isn't used to suspects who have the sense to lawyer up--or who can afford a good lawyer when they do. And he isn't used to dealing with people about whom you shouldn't talk bad in the press. (No one would notice what he said about the suspects in yet another drug bust). I don't know the guy, and I may be off base with this--but I believe that the DA just isn't used to something like this--a high profile violent crime with a black victim and rich white suspects who all have a really good lawyer. It will be a challenge to prosecute this with success and to play the PR game properly. I don't envy him his task.

FWIW, if I were those kids I would have lawyered up, too. Even if I was an uninvolved member of the team who just happened to be at the party and see some stuff. You really can't be too careful. Plus, I am scared of cops and jail and all that. I always get a kick out of Law & Order when the cops are interviewing potential suspects and the suspects calmly go about their business while tossing wisecracks back at the officers--generally ending the exchange with something like, "Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm late for a lunch appointment." If the police ever indicate to me that they suspect me of a murder, I will 1.) call a lawyer and 2.) piss myself--though not necessarily in that order.

This pretty much summed up my thoughts on further reflection. I can imagine a DA being frustrated, particularly if he thinks he has a case, at suspects lawyering up, but to suggest that people should forfeit their constitutional rights if they aren't guilty just smacked me up irresposibility at worse and downright unethical behavior at worst.

If I had done nothing wrong and was being question by the police in a rape case, you can darn well bet I'd want a lawyer too -- in today's day and age, it seems like you can't be too careful in what you say. Clearly the DA in this case thinks some or all of these kids are guilty -- if he can't make a rape charge stick, who is to say he won't try to make a making false statements charge stick if your recollection changes or you remember/forget something?

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, but I'm perplexed by the mushroom cloud this case has generated -- national media reports make it sound like half the town is ready to beat these guys, yet other media reports suggest that this could be much ado about nothing. It's dragged race and class warfare into the spotlight more than any case we've seen in quite some time.

[Wolfpack]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, but I'm perplexed by the mushroom cloud this case has generated -- national media reports make it sound like half the town is ready to beat these guys, yet other media reports suggest that this could be much ado about nothing. It's dragged race and class warfare into the spotlight more than any case we've seen in quite some time.

One thing that isn't mentioned as prominently as a source of contention is maybe a certain degree of regionalism as well. Duke, in addition to being largely wealthy and largely white, is also largely a Northern student body with kids from New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, etc. Because of this, kids come down, get their education, and go home. Duke is very transient and very apart from the community in some sense because of this. There will be some that come and stay, but if many more go home, there probably is a lower sense of connection between the university and the surrounding area because not enough are planting roots, developing ties with the community, etc. Add to that the perception that Duke likes to regard itself as an Ivy League equal in a town where a sizeable percentage of the population didn't even finish high school and the gulf widens even more.

[miami_fan]

DURHAM, N.C. -- Duke University's lacrosse coach resigned Wednesday and the school canceled the rest of the season amid a burgeoning scandal involving allegations that three players on the highly ranked team raped an exotic dancer at an off-campus party.

Mike Pressler spent 16 seasons at Duke and won three Atlantic Coast Conference championships. Last year, his team appeared in the national championship game.

"Coach Pressler offered me his resignation earlier this afternoon, and I accepted it," said Duke athletic director Joe Alleva. "I believe this is in the best interests of the program, the department of athletics and the university."

The rape allegations have roiled the campus and the city, raised racial tensions and heightened the long-standing antagonism between the privileged students at the elite university and the poorer people of Durham.

The dancer is black and said her attackers were white. Investigators and witnesses have said the lacrosse players taunted her with racial slurs and insults.

Students and townspeople have marched on campus and off in recent days, angry over the school's handling of the allegations. Investigators have said the athletes are sticking together and keeping silent. No one has been charged.

The lacrosse team's co-captains have denied that anyone was sexually assaulted at the party, as have attorneys for the players.

Earlier Wednesday, authorities unsealed documents stating that hours after the alleged rape, a player apparently sent an e-mail saying he wanted to invite more dancers to his dorm room, kill them and skin them. It was not clear whether the message was serious or a joke.

"The court released today a previously sealed warrant, whose contents are sickening and repulsive," Duke president Richard Brodhead said in announcing the cancellation of the rest of the season. Last week, Brodhead suspended the team from play.

The dancer, a student at a nearby university, has told police that she was hired to perform at a party at a house just off campus last month and was raped and choked by three men in a bathroom. Investigators are awaiting the results of DNA tests on 46 of the 47 team members. The team's lone black member did not have to provide a sample.

District Attorney Mike Nifong has said that he is "pretty confident that a rape occurred" but that he does not expect to file charges until next week.

Duke, considered a national title contender before the lacrosse season began, had a 6-2 record with seven regular-season games remaining before the scandal broke.

The e-mail, according to an application for a search warrant of the player's dorm room, was sent from the player's Duke e-mail account just before 2 a.m. on March 14. Police said investigators received a copy from a confidential source, though they later won a court order seeking access to the account.

In the e-mail, addressed "To whom it may concern," the player says he has "decided to have some dancers over" to his dorm room, "however there will be no nudity."

"I plan on killing the bitches as soon as they walk in and proceding to cut their skin off," the author of the e-mail says, adding in vulgar terms that he would find the act sexually satisfying. The e-mail was signed with what police said is the player's jersey number.

Investigators did not immediately return calls or e-mails seeking comment on whether the e-mail was serious. But a lawyer for the player who purportedly wrote it said the content suggests his client is innocent.

"While the language of the e-mail is vile, the e-mail itself is perfectly consistent with the boys' unequivocal assertion that no sexual assault took place that evening," said attorney Robert Ekstrand. The e-mail "demonstrates that its writer is completely unaware that any act or event remotely similar to what has been alleged ever occurred."

The warrant for the player's room was made public on Wednesday. In it, police provide a detailed timeline of the alleged attack and some additional details of their investigation. The warrant also adds conspiracy to commit murder as one of the crimes police are investigating.

According to the warrant, the alleged victim told police she believes the players used false names and falsely claimed to be members of Duke's baseball and track teams.

A team captain and resident of the house where the party took place told police he used an alias when hiring the dancers at the party, the warrant said.

[GrantDawg]

Read this page of the latest search-warrant release. It lists the physical evidence involved. It looks like there is plenty of evidence that the rape occurred. http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0405061duke4.html

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Despicable if it happened. Definitely believable, but I still want to hear more, especially the results of the DNA tests of the players. That should bring things into focus somewhat. If there's a match, I am sure the claim of consensual sex will come up. And then there we go again. Kobe anyone?

[TheOhioStateUniversity]

Not sure if anyone heard about this...

Limbaugh called alleged Duke rape victim a "ho"

Audio Here
http://mediamatters.org/items/200604030004



Summary: On his national syndicated radio program, Rush Limbaugh referred to the alleged victim of a rape by members of the Duke University lacrosse team as a "ho[]."

During the March 31 broadcast of his national syndicated radio program, Rush Limbaugh referred to the alleged victim of a rape by members of the Duke University lacrosse team as a "ho[]." During an on-air discussion with a caller, Limbaugh said that former Democratic presidential candidate Al Sharpton was "trying to figure out how he can get involved in the deal down there at Duke where the lacrosse team ... supposedly, you know, raped some, uh, hos." Limbaugh's made the comment about a recent incident in Durham, North Carolina, in which an exotic dancer was allegedly raped by three members of the Duke lacrosse team. The incident has invoked further controversy because the victim, an African-American, has alleged that her attackers used racial epithets. Prompted by another caller to apologize for his words, Limbaugh said that he had made the statement because he was "running on fumes today," and called it a "terrible slip of the tongue." But he then added that there are "some inconsistencies" in the case and rephrased his apology, telling the second caller, "I regret that you heard me say it."

[BYU 14]

Yeah, running on fumes or Pain Killers

Limbaugh is a fucking idiot and I am sick of him getting free passes for his "slips of the Tongue" all the time. Real nice calling an alleged rape victim (the evidence seems strong that it was indeed a rape) a Ho.

[Klinglerware]

Oh the irony--Limbaugh defending a group of guys who got into Duke via admissions preferences...

[st.cronin]

That's a racial epithet?

[TheOhioStateUniversity]

Who said it was? Its highly insensitive.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by TheOhioStateUniversity

Who said it was? Its highly insensitive.

No kidding. That paragraph makes me think I'm supposed to recognize that as a racial slur, though. Maybe I'm reading too deeply?

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by Vinatieri for Prez

Despicable if it happened. Definitely believable, but I still want to hear more, especially the results of the DNA tests of the players. That should bring things into focus somewhat. If there's a match, I am sure the claim of consensual sex will come up. And then there we go again. Kobe anyone?

I don't think you can compare Kobe to these guys.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

I don't think you can compare Kobe to these guys.

Why not?

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Why not?

Look at other evidence for christ's sake. Finger nails left behind, her bag was still on the scene, etc. etc.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Look at other evidence for christ's sake. Finger nails left behind, her bag was still on the scene, etc. etc.

dola, not to mention other injuries both vaginally and anally described by doctors as being consistent with those of a rape victim.

[st.cronin]

So you're saying this is worse than the Kobe situation? I can certainly see how it might be. I'm keeping an open mind, though.

[Schmidty]

I can't believe that I ever respected that fucking idiot (like 7-8 years ago).

[TheOhioStateUniversity]

What idiot?

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

So you're saying this is worse than the Kobe situation? I can certainly see how it might be. I'm keeping an open mind, though.

Dude, I like you so much, but the fact that you're defending anything about this crap makes me disappointed.

The fact that Rush even said the word 'ho' regarding the woman before anything is brought before the court. It's just insensitive to her and her family. If it's determined eventually in court that she was lying, that's fine, but until then, it's unbelievably rude at best, and racist hatred at worst.

Either way, it stinks.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

So you're saying this is worse than the Kobe situation? I can certainly see how it might be. I'm keeping an open mind, though.

Most definately. Kobe may well have raped that girl, but the fact that there is no definate evidence that says so makes it much more doubtful in my mind. The fact that Kobe is a superstar celebrity also just makes it that much harder to believe, as EVERYONE knows who he is and knows how much they stand to gain from an allegation.

The amount of physical evidence and the fact that these were just a bunch of college athletes makes it hard to give these guys the benefit of the doubt. I'd be incredibly surprised if nothing went down that night.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

I don't think you can compare Kobe to these guys.

My point was that the case will eventually come around to a defense of consensual sex, just like the Kobe situation. I'm not saying the facts are the same.

But it's still way too early to know enough about the case to form much of an opinion at all -- other than it should be thoroughly investigated.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

Dude, I like you so much, but the fact that you're defending anything about this crap makes me disappointed.

The fact that Rush even said the word 'ho' regarding the woman before anything is brought before the court. It's just insensitive to her and her family. If it's determined eventually in court that she was lying, that's fine, but until then, it's unbelievably rude at best, and racist hatred at worst.

Either way, it stinks.

Since when is 'ho' a racist word? That was a word I heard in high school, and I don't remember that it had any racial connotations. I went to a high school that was 99.99% white.

Or is it racist to say something bad about somebody black ... I don't get where this is going.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Most definately. Kobe may well have raped that girl, but the fact that there is no definate evidence that says so makes it much more doubtful in my mind. The fact that Kobe is a superstar celebrity also just makes it that much harder to believe, as EVERYONE knows who he is and knows how much they stand to gain from an allegation.

The amount of physical evidence and the fact that these were just a bunch of college athletes makes it hard to give these guys the benefit of the doubt. I'd be incredibly surprised if nothing went down that night.

Agree...Plus in that case, wasn't the alleged victim pretty shaky with her character and story?

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Since when is 'ho' a racist word? That was a word I heard in high school, and I don't remember that it had any racial connotations..

The first part of my post was that the word 'ho' was extremely insensitive to a person (and that person's family) who very well may have been raped by multiple men/boys. My "racist" part of the post has to do with Rush's past comments regarding minorities unless they fit in with his personal political views.

Trust me, I have never been afraid to point out that something is wrong, even if it has to do with black people. I also think there is a lot of reverse racism going around; however, I also am not so set in my ways, or naive, to realize that there are a ton of racist assholes in the "establishment".

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

The first part of my post was that the word 'ho' was extremely insensitive to a person (and that person's family) who very well may have been raped by multiple men/boys. My "racist" part of the post has to do with Rush's past comments regarding minorities unless they fit in with his personal political views.

I'm not at all condoning calling a rape victim (even if it's merely alleged) a 'ho.' And I guess in this story it's going to be impossible to keep 'racism' allegations out of any aspect. It just struck me as odd, as I'd never thought of 'ho' as being in any respect racist, even given who said it.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Agree...Plus in that case, wasn't the alleged victim pretty shaky with her character and story?

IIRC her story changed several times. Plus she also didn't report it for a few days, during which she'd had sex with another man (her boyfriend I think). I remember reading that for a woman to have sex with another man after rape is not terribly uncommon and can be brought on by the trauma, but it also conveniently erases useful DNA evidence, and without any other evidence of the rape occuring it makes her story look just that little bit suspect - suspect enough, at least, to cause doubt.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

The fact that Kobe is a superstar celebrity also just makes it that much harder to believe, as EVERYONE knows who he is and knows how much they stand to gain from an allegation.

The amount of physical evidence and the fact that these were just a bunch of college athletes makes it hard to give these guys the benefit of the doubt. I'd be incredibly surprised if nothing went down that night.

I'd be surprised too, but the links posted in post #51 are enough to add doubt in my mind at this point and let the legal system take its course. Everything you said about different groups having something to gain from this applies to this more than you know - mixed race, mixed income Southern townies vs. college kids predominantly rich, white and from Long Island/NJ. There's also the anti-athlete stereotypes and backlash that is present on many campuses.

The fact that the big new revelation is an e-mail that, while obviously in poor taste, is clearly to my mind a joke, leading to charges of conspiracy to commit murder makes me think there's a bit of a witchhunt or a shoddy DA here.

Any way this case plays out, people making their minds up now are probably gonna look stupid in the end.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

I'd be surprised too, but the links posted in post #51 are enough to add doubt in my mind at this point and let the legal system take its course. Everything you said about different groups having something to gain from this applies to this more than you know - mixed race, mixed income Southern townies vs. college kids predominantly rich, white and from Long Island/NJ. There's also the anti-athlete stereotypes and backlash that is present on many campuses.

You mean the two articles that were basically written by one of the defense attorneys? Nothing in them seemed like a very concrete defense. When looking at the physical evidence already taken, this looks more of a case of who did it rather than if.

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

The fact that the big new revelation is an e-mail that, while obviously in poor taste, is clearly to my mind a joke, leading to charges of conspiracy to commit murder makes me think there's a bit of a witchhunt or a shoddy DA here.

Really? I see the email as a sign of the attitude of these players. They have a contempt for these women, and they do not take an attack of this nature very seriously. It really shows a perfect environment for an attack like this to have occured.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

charges of conspiracy to commit murder makes me think there's a bit of a witchhunt or a shoddy DA here.

I think using barely supportable charges which are more serious than what someone actually did shows evidence of neither, they are simply used to intimidate the accused.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Samdari

I think using barely supportable charges which are more serious than what someone actually did shows evidence of neither, they are simply used to intimidate the accused.

DING DING DING!

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Really? I see the email as a sign of the attitude of these players. They have a contempt for these women, and they do not take an attack of this nature very seriously. It really shows a perfect environment for an attack like this to have occured.

I agree. This email is evidence that the player who sent it considers these women to be less than human, whether due to their race or choice of employment, or simply the fact that they are not Duke Lacrosse Players.

[Butter]

The lacrosse players certainly have a right not to speak to the authorities about this situation. But as far as I'm concerned, Duke also has a right to either throw them out of school, or take away their scholarships (partial or whatever some of them get).

I am not saying they're all guilty... but the school should demand cooperation from their students in any criminal investigation, especially one involving such cruel acts.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

I am not saying they're all guilty... but the school should demand cooperation from their students in any criminal investigation, especially one involving such cruel acts.

As a private school, Duke (I am pretty sure) has that right. And I think that I might agree with you here that they should.

A more interesting question would arise if they went to UNC. I am not sure whether the state (acting as UNC) can punish you for exercising your right against self-incrimination in at that way (assuming that that is the basis on which a student decides not to confess).

[Anthony]

one of my friends who's an attorney told us that if we ever got arrested for something or taken in for questioning not to say anything at all until our attorney gets there. he said he's heard so many stories of people fucking themselves just cuz they opened their mouth. he said once you're in the room and they're asking you questions you just stare at the table in silence till your lawyer gets there.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

one of my friends who's an attorney told us that if we ever got arrested for something or taken in for questioning not to say anything at all until our attorney gets there. he said he's heard so many stories of people fucking themselves just cuz they opened their mouth. he said once you're in the room and they're asking you questions you just stare at the table in silence till your lawyer gets there.

Your friend gives good advice. The only thing that I would add is that you should tell them that you want an attorney. Declaring that you want an attorney does cloak you with some (minimal) extra protections. But you should say nothing else.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Any way this case plays out, people making their minds up now are probably gonna look stupid in the end.

I ususally find that the people arguing this perspective have already made up their minds themselves. Quickly accepting the absurd articles written above, immediately dismissing the email as no big deal, calling into question the motivations of the community and alleged victim... all consistent with someone who really wants this stuff not to be true. Draw your parallels to whatever other case you desire -- Kobe Bryant is fine, but certainly not the only one.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Your friend gives good advice. The only thing that I would add is that you should tell them that you want an attorney. Declaring that you want an attorney does cloak you with some (minimal) extra protections. But you should say nothing else.

he's not a good attorney though, LOL, but it's good to hear another attorney confirmed that. we're talking about a guy who, after losing a case for one of his clients said "we got them right where we want them" LOL. then he proceeded to walk to the elevator with the man who was found guilty, gets in in the elevator with the man and as the doors close he ran out.

ohhhh man, the characters in my group.

the only good thing he's for is if any of us ever get pulled over for drunk driving. by law you're allowed to have your attorney present as the police make you take the breathalizer test. he's under orders to go back to sleep when we call him, come get us several hours later and then we take the test (long after most if not all the alcohol has left our bloodstream). none of us have had to use this yet, but organization is key.

[spcd]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

The lacrosse players certainly have a right not to speak to the authorities about this situation. But as far as I'm concerned, Duke also has a right to either throw them out of school, or take away their scholarships (partial or whatever some of them get).

I am not saying they're all guilty... but the school should demand cooperation from their students in any criminal investigation, especially one involving such cruel acts.

I disagree. The Constitution, and other laws, are rights not priviledges. Students exercising those rights should not be punished doing so.

In a highly charged case such as this, you'd be reckless to ignore the advice of an attorney, and what you're claiming Duke should do is to pressure students into ignoring expert legal advice.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

the only good thing he's for is if any of us ever get pulled over for drunk driving. by law you're allowed to have your attorney present as the police make you take the breathalizer test. he's under orders to go back to sleep when we call him, come get us several hours later and then we take the test (long after most if not all the alcohol has left our bloodstream). none of us have had to use this yet, but organization is key.

This is absolutely disgusting imo.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by wade moore

This is absolutely disgusting imo.

And not really true. You don't have to take the breathalyzer test, but if you don't, the state can suspend your license, etc.

But you don't have a right to counsel that kicks in for the breathalyzer. If/when they arrest you or put you in custody, then your right to counsel kicks in--but not before. And, by that point, you will have already refused to take the breathalyzer.

The lesson, of course, is just don't drive drunk.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

And not really true. You don't have to take the breathalyzer test, but if you don't, the state can suspend your license, etc.

But you don't have a right to counsel that kicks in for the breathalyzer. If/when they arrest you or put you in custody, then your right to counsel kicks in--but not before. And, by that point, you will have already refused to take the breathalyzer.

The lesson, of course, is just don't drive drunk.

Good to hear it's not true, I probably should have realized it wasn't if I had thought about that part, I was too busy thinking about how disgusting it is to make elaborate plans with your friends on how to get out of Drunk Driving charges.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by wade moore

This is absolutely disgusting imo.

Not to mention crappy legal advice.

[astrosfan64]

When did a stripper not become a "ho"?

[John Galt]

Nevermind.

[Butter]

Originally Posted by spcd

what you're claiming Duke should do is to pressure students into ignoring expert legal advice.

Yes.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by spcd

I disagree. The Constitution, and other laws, are rights not priviledges. Students exercising those rights should not be punished doing so.

In a highly charged case such as this, you'd be reckless to ignore the advice of an attorney, and what you're claiming Duke should do is to pressure students into ignoring expert legal advice.

These students have a right to avoid self incrimination. They do not have a right to attend Duke University. The constitution only provides protection from the government, not from Duke.

The university, on the other hand, has a right to act in their own best interests, and in the interests of the student body as a whole, rather than in the interests of a few students.

Thus, Duke cannot compel anyone to talk. They CAN set talking as a requirement to continue attendance.

Besides, for 40+ members of the team, they have no 5th amendment rights. The constitution offers no protection against ratting out your buddies.

[spcd]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

Yes.

Out of interest, why?

Should an employer be encouraged to coerce too?

----

Originally Posted by Samdari

These students have a right to avoid self incrimination. They do not have a right to attend Duke University. The constitution only provides protection from the government, not from Duke.

Correct, but what you propose is for private insitutions and corporations to coerce those they have leverage upon into forgoing those rights. The Constitution wasn't designed for only the independently wealthy, it would be a disgrace for Duke or any other institution to force anyone into giving up their rights.

Further, what you are suggesting is to force the school to intimately involve itself in criminal investigations, or do they throw anyone out who is accused of a crime and doesn't submit to every demand a prosecutor may make.

The university, on the other hand, has a right to act in their own best interests, and in the interests of the student body as a whole, rather than in the interests of a few students.

How is it in their interests as an institution to demonstrate bullying?

Thus, Duke cannot compel anyone to talk. They CAN set talking as a requirement to continue attendance.

They can do anything they like, the issue is whether they should act in such a manner as to encourage the abandonment of rights. What's next, throw out students who have had an abortion?

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by spcd

Out of interest, why?

Should an employer be encouraged to coerce too?

----




Correct, but what you propose is for private insitutions and corporations to coerce those they have leverage upon into forgoing those rights. The Constitution wasn't designed for only the independently wealthy, it would be a disgrace for Duke or any other institution to force anyone into giving up their rights.

Further, what you are suggesting is to force the school to intimately involve itself in criminal investigations, or do they throw anyone out who is accused of a crime and doesn't submit to every demand a prosecutor may make.


How is it in their interests as an institution to demonstrate bullying?


They can do anything they like, the issue is whether they should act in such a manner as to encourage the abandonment of rights. What's next, throw out students who have had an abortion?

You conveniently ignore the most salient fact here.

For 43 of the students on the lacrosse team, they are not exercising their rights, but rather hindering the investigation. The students they are trying to pressure into coming forward are not the three who will eventually be accused of rape, but the 43 who were not. They have no rights to give up. They are not guaranteed the right to not rat out their buddies. They CAN be forced to do so. They may be issuing blanket statements to/about all 46, but what they really want is the 43 who weren't in the bathroom to name the 3 they saw go in there. Those 43 are being offered a choice: tell us who did it, or leave school. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

And, if Duke as an institution, decides that they don't want as students the kind of people who lie to protect (accused) rapists, I have no problem with that.

Your first paragraph indicates that you completely misunderstand the constitution. Private entities are under no obligation to protect the constitutional rights of others, especially if those rights conflict with that private entity's best interests. You can be fired for saying things that first amendment rights prevent you from being prosecuted for. Young people tend to misinterpret those rights as being universal and absolute - you can say anything you want and be protected from all repercussions - whereas in reality, they are not.

As for "bullying" being in their best interests, they have sole discretion there. You might think they are conveying the wrong message, but your opinion, and mine, is irrelevant.

[Butter]

Originally Posted by spcd

Out of interest, why?

Should an employer be encouraged to coerce too?

Are you serious? How many high-profile "employees" have been fired based on charges that may or may not have turned out to be factually accurate? Let's all pillory NBC for firing OJ, because he was found innocent!

Please. These kids fucked up... and their buddies are protecting them. It sucks all around, any way you want to look at it.