Thread on Airline & Travel experiences

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

Yes, I've had had things confiscated - a battery pack (in China) ...

Hah, same here. Beijing airport, apparently anything over 10 whatever. I tossed by battery pack into a bin that was full of battery packs!

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Great idea, I'm going to try it.

What type of candy and how many FA do you give them to?

Kisses or any kind of bagged mini works great. Just give it to the lead when you get on the plane. Never expected, always appreciated.

[Edward64]

Just got off a Delta flight. Upgraded to First class and dinner was nice (I do like airplane business class meals).

However, the flight attendant was an older lady, hair in a bun, and best way I can describe it is a "school marm" look & attitude. Dropped off my tray without a word. Picked up my tray without a word (nor asked if I wanted anything else to drink). On approach, gave me my jacket without a word.

I know I'm stereotyping but its just another data point on inconsistent service.

I am going to try giving candy/kisses and will report back sometime.

[PilotMan]

This is a fantastic article on the metrics and dynamics of how airline travel has changed and the wide reaching effects on employees and passengers. The topic gets dense, because it is, so be forewarned, but the scope is broad and accurate. I've lived it. There are a couple spots where It misses and It feels like It ended to quickly without a sufficient summary, but otherwise, it definitely hits the mark.

How we ruined airline jobs.

[Edward64]

I'm all for this being tossed. He paid for the travel and if he doesn't want to complete the full leg its his prerogative.

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/l...ntl/index.html

A method commonly used by airline passengers to get cheaper fares is at the center of a court row between a German airline and one of its customers.
Lufthansa has taken a passenger, who didn't show up for the last leg of his ticketed journey, to court in an apparent bid to clamp down on "hidden city" ticketing.

The practice involves passengers leaving their journey at a layover point, instead of making a final connection.

For instance, someone flying from New York to San Francisco could book a cheaper trip from New York to Lake Tahoe with a layover in San Francisco and get off there, without bothering to take the last leg of the flight.

According to a court document, an unnamed male passenger booked a return flight from Oslo to Seattle, which had a layover in Frankfurt. The passenger used all legs of the outbound flight, but did not catch the Frankfurt to Oslo return flight. He instead flew on a separate Lufthansa reservation from Frankfurt to Berlin.

[Edward64]

So to our resident commercial pilot, what say you re: Boeing 737 Max?

[PilotMan]

What I've said all along.



The majority of the problem is on the pilots and the training quality and culture of foreign operators. I flew the plane the last day before it was grounded and it's really nice. Boeing did screw up though. The inclusion of a new system that was on included in the initial training, or how to handle it in the event of a system failure was also not included. The manufacturer assumed that pilots would treat is as a similar failure, which it is, sort of, and if they did, it resolves the problem and regains control, but in the Lion Air instance, that company was also at fault for not addressing the concerns of a previous crew regarding the problems they were having. The Lion Air pilots were not experienced, and without being able to speak to their training I can only assume it was similar to Asian carriers, who for years have taught pilots to fly the automation as the most important thing. Pilots in the US are trained to fly first, then deal with the automation, but that isn't the standard elsewhere. Africa is notorious as one of the most dangerous places to fly, but Ethiopian is actually one of the safest in the region. Similarities point to similar system issues, but pilot response to the emergency will be a critical item to look at. I am confident the plane is safe. US carriers have pilots who are very well trained and will be able to deal with the failure should it occur here. I would not have a problem flying it again today.



This article in the Seattle Times yesterday gives a very good accounting of the entire situation.


Flawed analysis, failed oversight: How Boeing, FAA certified the suspect 737 MAX flight control system | The Seattle Times

[stevew]

My bad, I thought you went back to school for computer science

[whomario]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

What I've said all along.



The majority of the problem is on the pilots and the training quality and culture of foreign operators. I flew the plane the last day before it was grounded and it's really nice. Boeing did screw up though. The inclusion of a new system that was on included in the initial training, or how to handle it in the event of a system failure was also not included. The manufacturer assumed that pilots would treat is as a similar failure, which it is, sort of, and if they did, it resolves the problem and regains control, but in the Lion Air instance, that company was also at fault for not addressing the concerns of a previous crew regarding the problems they were having. The Lion Air pilots were not experienced, and without being able to speak to their training I can only assume it was similar to Asian carriers, who for years have taught pilots to fly the automation as the most important thing. Pilots in the US are trained to fly first, then deal with the automation, but that isn't the standard elsewhere. Africa is notorious as one of the most dangerous places to fly, but Ethiopian is actually one of the safest in the region. Similarities point to similar system issues, but pilot response to the emergency will be a critical item to look at. I am confident the plane is safe. US carriers have pilots who are very well trained and will be able to deal with the failure should it occur here. I would not have a problem flying it again today.



This article in the Seattle Times yesterday gives a very good accounting of the entire situation.


Flawed analysis, failed oversight: How Boeing, FAA certified the suspect 737 MAX flight control system | The Seattle Times

While i trust your judgement on this, i think the more important takeaway here is the lack of division of production/inspection ('church and state' sort of thing). I mean, who is to say the same thing won't lead to issues that can't ultimately be boiled down to "minor issue that is heightened by lack of pilot training" ?

[PilotMan]

I think that was where the article was going. There's a real limit to the amount of self regulation that a company is going to do. That has been shown time and again in various industries. Deregulation does have real world consequences in the right places. This may not be true deregulation, but when you start taking money away from instpections, or push less, the idea that a company needs oversight to comply, you open the door for massive fraud and corruption.

[Edward64]

Thanks for your perspective.

[PilotMan]

The industry is constantly getting nailed by people who love to complain about it, but so much is missed that is done so well. I'm not sure if you're aware of the story of the jumpseater who was commuting to work for his last trip with Mesa Airlines before starting his career with United. He was killed when the plane crashed outside of Houston. I have speculation on the crash itself, and I think it's pretty clear why nobody is talking about it, but that's not really the point here. Instead the point is how United handled it. They presented his wings with his new hire class in training and last night flew his ashes to his family in Columbia.


https://www.gofundme.com/sean-archuletas-family


Good Morning Everyone,

Last night our Mesa Family was able to pay tribute to Captain Sean Archuleta by sending the ashes to his wife on his last flight from Houston to Colombia. Special thanks to every single member who attended the last flight and United Airlines for making it possible.

Attached you may find pictures of this special tribute. God Bless you all for supporting this noble cause that has gathered our aviation community.

Best Regards,

Yoandy

[Edward64]

Nice tribute.

[Critch]

Not sure how this is possible, flew north instead of south:

British Airways flight mistakenly lands in Scotland instead of Germany

[digamma]

He was killed when the plane crashed outside of Houston. I have speculation on the crash itself, and I think it's pretty clear why nobody is talking about it, but that's not really the point here.

Pretty sure I get what you're saying, but my question is a little different. If it is what I think it is, does the company bear responsibility for the pilot's actions?

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by digamma

Pretty sure I get what you're saying, but my question is a little different. If it is what I think it is, does the company bear responsibility for the pilot's actions?

Not knowing the particulars of US law that well, and only based on speculation, I'd have to say possibly. This article is a different country, but the arguments raised could be the same.



Germanwings Plane Crash: Airline Could Be Legally Liable | Fortune



FWIW, the preliminary results released by the NTSB do not contradict my theory one bit.

[Edward64]

Wonder if this will work in the US?

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/a...cli/index.html

Fasten (or perhaps tighten) your seatbelts: Air India is putting its crew on a low-fat diet.

In a memo sent to cabin crew, India's national air carrier told staff it would be launching a new menu for in-flight crew, providing staff with a "low fat diet meal".
:
This isn't the first time Air India has waded in on the the weight debate.
In 2015, the airline asked 125 of its flight attendants to shed weight, or instead be offered an airport job or "ground duties."

At the time, the airline insisted that the move was not about weight but provided an opportunity for staff to bring themselves back to the required "fitness level", adding that the decision came as the result of a "safety issue."

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Yep.

Plus scale does become an issue.

When you're talking about having states that are the size of a lot of those countries you mentioned, the sheer volume (even for short hops as under discussion here) becomes an issue.

Just my 2 cents here, but this country has the largest highway system pretty much anywhere, and anyone driving on it has to have seen all that dead space along the sides and in some areas even right down the center.

Why, oh WHY do we not have a high end rail system that quite literally runs adjacent to all these gigantic highways?

They connect every major city, it seems like a no brainer.

National rail system. Part of the National Highway system.

LEts get train-ing.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Wonder if this will work in the US?

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/a...cli/index.html

Airlines already provide lighter choice (low fat) options for (flight) crews to choose from. I don't think the FA's get a choice (other airlines maybe?). We also have cultural choices like Kosher, Hindu, Veg, Muslim, and the Far East crews can get Japanese meals. Additionally, we can request preferences of chicken, beef. Breakfasts can be cereal, or oatmeal if you don't want the standard. Of course, the airlines themselves have no control over what crews eat, and they can't discriminate.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Just my 2 cents here, but this country has the largest highway system pretty much anywhere, and anyone driving on it has to have seen all that dead space along the sides and in some areas even right down the center.

Why, oh WHY do we not have a high end rail system that quite literally runs adjacent to all these gigantic highways?

They connect every major city, it seems like a no brainer.

National rail system. Part of the National Highway system.

LEts get train-ing.

It isn't a thing here because it isn't particularly desirable. Among other things, we have more faith in our ability to get ourselves places by land than we do in other people to do the same.

And the cost - again, due to the scale.

And, honestly, who in their right g.d. mind wants to be stuck on a fucking train with people?

[RendeR]

Its no different than being stuck on a plain, and if the train breaks down at least you can walk OUTSIDE....lol

[Jstraub]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Just my 2 cents here, but this country has the largest highway system pretty much anywhere, and anyone driving on it has to have seen all that dead space along the sides and in some areas even right down the center.

Why, oh WHY do we not have a high end rail system that quite literally runs adjacent to all these gigantic highways?

They connect every major city, it seems like a no brainer.

National rail system. Part of the National Highway system.

LEts get train-ing.

I completely agree we should but ... We don't because FORD, CHEVY and DODGE have aggressively and successfully convinced everyone, for generations, that the automobile is the AMERICAN way to travel.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Its no different than being stuck on a plain, and if the train breaks down at least you can walk OUTSIDE....lol

You can always walk when you're stuck on a plain.

[RendeR]

HAH!

[bhlloy]

Sorry, there's no way train travel ever works in the US at a large scale. For a start, just due to the distances you need insanely high speed trains. Look at the places where high speed trains work, you have incredibly high levels of funding from local and state governments, and that's never going to fly in the US. The UK has got itself into a terrible mess over electrified high speed trains and have spent the last 5 years basically making the scope smaller and smaller and smaller due to delays and cost overruns, and that's a country that prioritizes public transport and is the size of Colorado or Nevada.

And let's say you spend those hundreds of billions of dollars to put high speed trains between every major city in the US, and the absolute army of maintenance workers and technicians to keep it up and running through thousands of miles of nothingness, you've basically still just created what is essentially a much slower but possibly a bit cheaper plane network and nobody is going to use it.

I do think some expansion of regional rail does make sense (I was genuinely disappointed to see the SF - LA high speed link bite the dust, even if it was going to be a corrupt expensive clusterfuck even by California standards) and it has never made sense to me that one of the Casinos doesn't built a high speed link connecting Vegas and LA (well, I do know why not and that's because California won't let those tax dollars leave the state even easier) but on a national interstate level? Just never going to happen.

[bhlloy]

DOLA - for speed comparison, the fastest section of the bullet train network goes around 200mph. An average cruising speed for a passenger jet is 575mph. So even getting to the airport and getting out of the airport, your journey is probably going to triple or quadruple in time. Nobody who isn't travelling without any consideration for schedule is going to do that.

[RendeR]

You haven't sat in many coffee shops with hipsters....have you....

[Edward64]

I've always thought it would be nice to have a bullet train system. The key would be start small with select big cities and tourist areas (e.g. Orlando) and then grow it.

It takes me <2 hours flight from Atlanta to NY.

Distance wise its approx 900 miles. If a bullet train @200mph can get me there in 5 hours, I would maybe consider it for work and definitely for pleasure.

Atlanta to Orlando is about 400 miles. I would definitely travel to Orlando in a train for pleasure.

Maybe one of these days in an infrastructure program.

[ISiddiqui]

Yeah, I tend to always add about 2 hours to my flights (because I'm the type of person who shows up to the airport 2 hours before my flight to give me loads of time to get through security). But I guess you could add a half hour getting out of the airport to the pick up area.

I'd imagine with a bullet train you could add a half hour to get there early (the security isn't close to as bad).

So a 5.5 hour all inclusive train trip vs. a 4.5 hour plan trip, I'd seriously weigh the train if it was cheaper.

[bhlloy]

That's not really a realistic depiction of how trains work though. If you can get an express bullet train that doesn't stop or have to wait for any other trains between those two points, then maybe you can roughly use that 200mph as a calculation.

Smaller countries work again because the distances are small enough they can build it economically and because there are a limited number of major destinations. For every person who wants to go Atlanta to New York there's a person who wants to go Atlanta to Boston, or Atlanta to DC or Atlanta to Chicago etc... it's going to be a regional network connected together with stops and with changes and it's going to suck. The economics just aren't going to line up.

[Jstraub]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

DOLA - So even getting to the airport and getting out of the airport, your journey is probably going to triple or quadruple in time. Nobody who isn't travelling without any consideration for schedule is going to do that.

Yeah because in America we always gotta get there quick. Everyone is always in a hurry, I get it. 'Yippee I got here now I can piss around on my phone for 2 hours, before my meeting starts'.

Look I understand it takes longer than flying and the economics are not favorable, at least currently. But the current means by which we travel has a shelf life. Trains could be the next shelf.

[tarcone]

They are going to build a hyper loop train from St Louis to Kansas City. A 300+ mile trip would take about 30 minutes.

[Edward64]

Yuck.

500 - Internal Server Error

The report confirms what previous studies have shown: You should not drink airplane water.

Flight attendants pour drinking water from bottles, but airlines still use galley water in the coffee and tea they serve. Passengers also come into contact with it when washing their hands or even taking a drink from the sinks in the lavatories.

Airplane coffee has come under fire in the past due to other concerns about container cleanliness and even coffee maker-induced flight delays. Platkin advises travelers to steer clear of tea and coffee, particularly on those airlines with the lowest water scores.

[PilotMan]

So there has been a lot of speculation about the 737 Max. I've gotten a lot of questions about it, especially as the delay of it's return has gotten longer. In fact, it's grounding is now keeping me from advancing my career. I've been asked my opinion on the plane, since this is what I fly, and I've flow it one time. The day before it was grounded.



What I've said was, "that Boeing fucked up, but the plane is good, and the plane is safe. It's the pilots, and they way that they were trained, and the way that they are encouraged to operate outside of the US that is the genesis of the problems. The pilots made grave errors, that pilots here in the states are trained, from early on in our pilot careers, to overcome. So while the plane created a problem, the failure of the pilots, who should have been able to manage it, were the main culprits."


This article in the Time today is the exact thing I've said all along. It's a ridiculously deep dive, and close to a 30 minute read, but it's good. Perhaps the best article I've read on aviation in a decade. You need to read it.



https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/18/m...x-crashes.html

[JPhillips]

This story on the 737 MAX software is full of crazy details.

https://newrepublic.com/article/1549..._y-HiQztf8fI5o

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

This story on the 737 MAX software is full of crazy details.

https://newrepublic.com/article/1549..._y-HiQztf8fI5o

I'll be honest. I can't get past this:

Airplane manufacturing is no different from mortgage lending or insulin distribution or make-believe blood analyzing software—another cash cow for the one percent, bound inexorably for the slaughterhouse. In the now infamous debacle of the Boeing 737 MAX, the company produced a plane outfitted with a half-assed bit of software programmed to override all pilot input and nosedive when a little vane on the side of the fuselage told it the nose was pitching up. The vane was also not terribly reliable, possibly due to assembly line lapses reported by a whistle-blower, and when the plane processed the bad data it received, it promptly dove into the sea.


It's so ill-informed, and sensationalist, and the complete opposite of the article that I linked to, which was very well documented. Articles like this make it sound as if these pilots were completely powerless to resist this, which couldn't be further from the truth. If you think that if one little link in the safety chain breaks that people die, you really don't understand the industry. Mistakes are trapped all the time, it's literally the biggest factor in training professional pilots. There may be some interesting engineering stuff in there, and Boeing did screw up, don't get me wrong, but the central issue is the pilots. That plane flew thousands of flights in the US with no incidents. Yet it's supposedly a flying deathtrap? Please. I'll fly that bird tomorrow.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

This article in the Time today is the exact thing I've said all along. It's a ridiculously deep dive, and close to a 30 minute read, but it's good. Perhaps the best article I've read on aviation in a decade. You need to read it.

Done.

And save for one bit early on (I suspect an editor's hand), the piece feels well written by an aviator who just wanted to try to make sense of it all and explain it as best he could to a general audience.

It read, to me, far more like something from The Atlantic (who the writer used to contribute to) than the NYT.

Good read, though for a layman it came close to headspinning a couple times where I think the writer simply had connected so many dots that it got a little frenetic. He could lay it all out faster than I could read it (if that makes sense)

[Qwikshot]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

This story on the 737 MAX software is full of crazy details.

https://newrepublic.com/article/1549..._y-HiQztf8fI5o

I consider William Langewiesche to be one of the best on aviation pieces. I believe his article on Gol Flight “Devil at 37000 Feet” is harrowing read.

If he writes it I read, like I’d read John Maclean on anything related to forest fires.

[PilotMan]

Not exactly related to airline travel, but earlier this year I started a FB page that showcases the different views that I get from my hotel room while I'm on the road. It's called The Road View, and it's geared toward road warriors, and people who travel, along with people who like to travel, or people who just want to see all the interesting looks I get out my window. If you're interested you can follow it here:

https://www.facebook.com/Road.Views

[molson]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Not exactly related to airline travel, but earlier this year I started a FB page that showcases the different views that I get from my hotel room while I'm on the road. It's called The Road View, and it's geared toward road warriors, and people who travel, along with people who like to travel, or people who just want to see all the interesting looks I get out my window. If you're interested you can follow it here:

https://www.facebook.com/Road.Views

I was sad for you that they put you in that hotel in Boise. I'm sure in it was nice on the inside, but, kind of a gross blah neighborhood.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Not exactly related to airline travel, but earlier this year I started a FB page that showcases the different views that I get from my hotel room while I'm on the road. It's called The Road View, and it's geared toward road warriors, and people who travel, along with people who like to travel, or people who just want to see all the interesting looks I get out my window. If you're interested you can follow it here:

https://www.facebook.com/Road.Views

Nice. Some questions

1) For some reason, I always imagined a pilot/crew that did international travel did that pretty much exclusively vs international and domestic? Not sure why but I figured if you flew a big 787 to Europe/Asia you wouldn't be flying a 737.

2) When you fly internationally, can you schedule for 1-2 days off to tour?

3) I've always thought the exposure is not so much terrorists getting onboard with weapons but more like a terrorist baggage handler. When I fly internationally, many times it seems Delta has additional screening when I return back to the US. But I always wonder how tight security/background checks are for the local baggage handlers. Your opinion?

4) Whats the latest on Malaysian Airlines 370? I think you were leaning towards the Captain did it. Any change of opinion and do you think we'll ever find the plane? Followup question - have they resolved the problem where planes are often in a "blind spot" from satellites/GPS etc. and not trackable?

5) ... do crew hookups happen as much as I think they do?

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Nice. Some questions

1) For some reason, I always imagined a pilot/crew that did international travel did that pretty much exclusively vs international and domestic? Not sure why but I figured if you flew a big 787 to Europe/Asia you wouldn't be flying a 737.

You're correct. Pilots are assigned to a plane. You don't have guys going between the 787 and 737. But guys who fly the smaller planes still fly international where it makes sense for that plane to operate.

2) When you fly internationally, can you schedule for 1-2 days off to tour?

Time between flights on long international legs is determined by FAR 117 which dictates rules for crew rest. Those regulations came about after studies that pointed to tired and not well rested crews being the reason for a number of incidents. They're quite complicated and are impacted, but how many time zones you've transited, how long you've been there, how long the flight was, and how many pilots are operating the flight. You're free to spend your time how you like on your layover, but not to determine how long your layover is.

3) I've always thought the exposure is not so much terrorists getting onboard with weapons but more like a terrorist baggage handler. When I fly internationally, many times it seems Delta has additional screening when I return back to the US. But I always wonder how tight security/background checks are for the local baggage handlers. Your opinion?

That's no something that I'm privy to honestly. I can only speak to pilots who are subject to FBI/DOT background checks.

4) Whats the latest on Malaysian Airlines 370? I think you were leaning towards the Captain did it. Any change of opinion and do you think we'll ever find the plane? Followup question - have they resolved the problem where planes are often in a "blind spot" from satellites/GPS etc. and not trackable?

There's been no change in the search, but I feel like more and more the Captain is still the most likely culprit. The parts of the plane that were found and the knowledge of currents and timing placed the likely disappearance in the South East part of the Indian Ocean. They might continue to find little bits and pieces of it, but otherwise it's gone. I don't know about your last question. Worldwide radar is limited, and it's not practical to have radar services everywhere. Even last night, I flew over the Ocean and was out of radar coverage, where the only knowledge of where I was, was based on my position reports. If a pilot wants to make a plane 'go dark' they still can. No satellite is going to visually or electronically track it. The resources just aren't there. Maybe trump can use his secret satellites get those photos?

5) ... do crew hookups happen as much as I think they do?

Not for this happily married guy. Have you seen how hot my wife is?

[PilotMan]

The pilot who got the 300k settlement that was in the news yesterday deserved every bit of it, and probably deserved the million he was asking for.

[Lathum]

Well. That was quite the night. Was supposed to take of from Newark flying to London at 6:00. Sat on the runway for 5 hours with a 6 and 9 year old and my wife. Plane had to be deiced, finally do that then while waiting in line for take off another snow squall comes through. Have to deice again. About an hour goes by and pilot says we can't deice anymore. Too many other planes and by the time we would get through we wouldn't have enough fuel. they them take 2 hours to get us back to the gate, at which point the jetway breaks down and it takes another 30 minutes to get that done. they tell us we can leave the plane but don't have to. We leave. About 40 minutes later they announce everyone has to leave the plane and they will let us know when control has a taxi time and we can get back on the plane and go An hour later they announce the flight is cancelled. It is now almost 1:00AM. The line at customer service is at least 4 hours. I can't rebook through the app because wife and I booked tickets separately and it wouldn't work out. I wait 2.5 more hours and rebook over the phone leaving today at 3:00 from LaGuardia. We rent a car at Newark, book a hotel by LaGuardia, and arrive here at 5:00 AM. They have assured us our luggage will be waiting in London. Rough night but the kids held up great and my wife and I didn't turn on each other at any point.

[molson]

Wow. I don't miss my annual ventures in and out of the northeast in the winter. I do the holidays in Idaho and visit northeast friends and family in the spring and fall now. Not just because of the weather, but that's a nice benefit. I guess its pretty lucky they're getting you out just a day later with so many people impacted.

That reminds of me a drama I saw played out in Denver last month. It was right before a blizzard was coming in. I was there early, just sitting at some random gate. Two guys got the gate late for their flight, and the airline had already given up most of the seats to stand-bys. There was 1 seat left. The gate guy said, "I can only take one of you, whoever doesn't get on this plane will probably be stuck here for at least 3-4 days, and you have to make your decision in 90 seconds". It was so intense and awkward that I got up and walked away, I couldn't handle it. Should have recorded it on my cell phone.

[NobodyHere]

So is some pilot having a Snickers moment right now?

LAX-Bound Aircraft Dumps Fuel On 4 Elementary Schools, Minor Injuries Reported : NPR

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

So is some pilot having a Snickers moment right now?

LAX-Bound Aircraft Dumps Fuel On 4 Elementary Schools, Minor Injuries Reported : NPR

Well this sucks.

...dumped jet fuel on the way to an emergency landing.

They had fuel to get to China, needed to land ASAP. We're taught to try to be above 5000ft as the fuel will evaporate before hitting the ground. If you gotta land choices and options are weighed. Probably should have just taken the overweight landing given the result, but it's hard to judge when you're not in the moment.

[Edward64]

There seems to be so many wrongs in this article. I don't think the full story is out yet but based on the article ...

The woman was not wrong in reclining. IMO the seats are too upright to sleep. I am often wasted by the time I get on a flight and catch a nap. Not sure if its my imagination but the smaller 50+ seat jets have an "angle" that is more comfortable.

The man was wrong in hitting her seat.

The flight attendant was wrong in not resolving the situation and "rolled her eyes"

The woman was wrong (likely exaggerating) in characterizing it as an "assault"

Delta is wrong is not resolving her complaint after the fact (admittedly she may have had unreasonable demands)

Delta CEO is an ass. Stop reducing space and treating economy passengers as cattle ... bring over Singapore Airlines training and do better

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/w...rnd/index.html

Williams was flying from a teacher's convention in New Orleans to a connection in Charlotte, North Carolina, she wrote on Twitter. The footage appears to show she was seated in the second-to-last row in the cabin.
That's when she reclined her chair.

At some point in the flight, the man seated behind her asked Williams "with an attitude" to return her seat to the upright position so he could eat from the tray table, she said.

So she did -- but when he was done eating, she said, she reclined her seat once again.

That's when he started "hammering away," she said. "He was angry that I reclined my seat and punched it about 9 times - HARD," she wrote.
So, Williams started recording him.

[molson]

Ah, the great recline debate

I'd never recline on anyone else. I'm slightly annoyed when someone reclines on me, though, i'd say it only happens 10% of the time, and then I just sit there annoyed and get over it like a normal person.

[CraigSca]

Would I LIKE to recline my seat? Yeah, probably. Do I? No, because I know I hate it when the person in front of me does.