Officer delays family racing to see dying mom

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

If it's true that he had his hazard lights on, then the officer should be out of a job. He seems a bit unstable.

Hazard lights make things ok?

[molson]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

If it's true that he had his hazard lights on, then the officer should be out of a job. He seems a bit unstable.

Hazards don't give one immunity from traffic violations. (Neither does someone "waving" you to break the law - that's a common attempted defense in car accident cases)

When you're in a hurry to do something, that's the worst time to start breaking the law.

This officer had an attitude problem, but this guy was a dummy. Even in the best, most reasonable of circumstances, the pull-over is going to cost you more time than the red light would have.

[JediKooter]

Is running a red light even an arrestable offense? I'm sure there is some ambiguous code that a cop could use to make an arrest for running a red light, but come on, give me a break. That cop is useless to the community in my opinion and the department he belongs to would be best to either fire him or keep him off the streets.

I have not watched the video and one of my first thoughts was when I read the story, "I bet the driver is black and the cop is white".

* Edit to add: I think he was doing his job (even though he was clearly on a power trip) up until the point that a SECOND COP said that the football player was telling the truth. One of his peers could not even get him to turn off his power trip switch and that's a bad sign.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

Is running a red light even an arrestable offense?

I would imagine it could be, under any variety of alternate charges such as public endangerment, reckless conduct, etc. And enough attitude could lead to it under whatever local version of "interference with an officer" a jurisdiction has.

Pretty much anything is arrestable under the right circumstances.

[watravaler]

Some cops don't respond well when their authority is questioned, what else is new?

Of course, the cop needs to assess the situation, but something should have clicked in his brain. Just another mouth-breather...

[lordscarlet]

I think the cop was a prick, I think he overstepped his boundaries, but I don't think he should be disciplined unless he has some sort of history of poor behavior.

[Fighter of Foo]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Aside from being a little careless with his language (the "I can screw you over" line), I don't see what the officer did wrong. It's a really unfortunate situation and I really feel for them, but I don't see how this could have gone any differently.
SI

The officer could have done nothing and let them go.

This isn't complicated.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

Hazard lights make things ok?

I think that leads to him getting the benefit of the doubt. And stil, my problem isn't with the initial stop. the problem is with him being detained for os long to check insurance even after the guy's story was being verified. I'm baffled as to how anyone thinks that's reasonable.

[Fighter of Foo]

Originally Posted by Noop

The officer was doing his job... I think his attitude sucked but he was doing his job.

Worst. Excuse. Ever.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by molson

This officer had an attitude problem, but this guy was a dummy. Even in the best, most reasonable of circumstances, the pull-over is going to cost you more time than the red light would have.

This is assuming that you can expect to get pulled over everytime you run a red light. If that happened in the ATL, the city would run out of tickets to print. Of course, this is also assuming you expect someone to be calm enough to think the situation through when someone they love is dying. I can tell you, if that was my case, the only thought in my mind was geytting in the car and going.

[molson]

People LOVE the jerk cop stories. It just sets something off.

Four murdered cops in Oakland doesn't arise the same kind of passion.

[molson]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

This is assuming that you can expect to get pulled over everytime you run a red light. If that happened in the ATL, the city would run out of tickets to print.

It's a calculated risk (not just risk to him, but to the community) that didin't work out for him.

[molson]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Of course, this is also assuming you expect someone to be calm enough to think the situation through when someone they love is dying. I can tell you, if that was my case, the only thought in my mind was geytting in the car and going.

That's EXACTLY why you shouldn't be running red lights in that situation.

[Karlifornia]

Originally Posted by lordscarlet

I think the cop was a prick, I think he overstepped his boundaries, but I don't think he should be disciplined unless he has some sort of history of poor behavior.

Did you read that article? You seriously want this guy having the ability to lock people up?

Hoo boy. I don't want this guy anywhere near a pair of handcuffs.

[Karlifornia]

Originally Posted by molson

People LOVE the jerk cop stories. It just sets something off.

Four murdered cops in Oakland doesn't arise the same kind of passion.

Lemme guess. Dad was a cop? You're a cop? Uncle was a cop?

Cop to it, buddy.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by molson

People LOVE the jerk cop stories. It just sets something off.

Four murdered cops in Oakland doesn't arise the same kind of passion.

Well, for the record, the dude that killed those cops was a complete scum bag and I'm glad that he was killed.

[gstelmack]

The cop was dealing with a group of multiple people in the car, some of whom got out and tried to leave the scene immediately. When those two people head in and start shooting the place up, everyone would be calling for the cop's head for letting them get away.

That said, where's a link to the dashcam video? I'd love to see it, and it may change my mind completely when I see what happened, assuming the video shows enough. These videos have a habit of cutting in late and missing key parts of what led up to the problem.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

I think that leads to him getting the benefit of the doubt. And stil, my problem isn't with the initial stop. the problem is with him being detained for os long to check insurance even after the guy's story was being verified. I'm baffled as to how anyone thinks that's reasonable.

Not just insurance. Arrest warrants, too.

He was fishing for a reason to lock the guy up at that point.

[JPhillips]

I don't think Moates should get off free. It's perfectly reasonable IMO to give him the ticket as he did violate the law. However, the way the cop handled the situation was wrong and we should expect a better level of judgment from the police.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Fighter of Foo

Worst. Excuse. Ever.

Not even going to bother. I think your wrong.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by molson

That's EXACTLY why you shouldn't be running red lights in that situation.

Oscar Grant.

[Huckleberry]

Originally Posted by molson

People LOVE the jerk cop stories. It just sets something off.

Four murdered cops in Oakland doesn't arise the same kind of passion.

Actually, a healthy respect for police and what their relationship with citizens should be causes a reaction of disgust in both cases.

Police officers are given a large degree of power. Anybody with power that misuses and/or abuses that power deserves to have that power removed.

[Huckleberry]

Originally Posted by Noop

Not even going to bother. I think your wrong.

You seriously can't come up with any examples where doing something even if it's part of your job is wrong? Really?

That's what makes your argument a bad one.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

The cop was dealing with a group of multiple people in the car, some of whom got out and tried to leave the scene immediately. When those two people head in and start shooting the place up, everyone would be calling for the cop's head for letting them get away.

That said, where's a link to the dashcam video? I'd love to see it, and it may change my mind completely when I see what happened, assuming the video shows enough. These videos have a habit of cutting in late and missing key parts of what led up to the problem.

You can access the video through the original link. I'm having trouble getting it to load, however.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Noop

Oscar Grant.

Lovelle Mixon

And the people who marched in Oakland calling him a hero this week.

People rallied in the streets for Lovelle Mixon who shot four Oakland police officers - 3/26/09 - San Francisco News - abc7news.com

Next time an officer has an itchy trigger finger - maybe these thugs should share some of the blame.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Originally Posted by Huckleberry

Actually, a healthy respect for police and what their relationship with citizens should be causes a reaction of disgust in both cases.

Police officers are given a large degree of power. Anybody with power that misuses and/or abuses that power deserves to have that power removed.

I'm a big fan of police officers. What happened in Oakland was a tragedy. Doesn't change the fact that this police officer seemed to be on something of a power trip.

[Huckleberry]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

The cop was dealing with a group of multiple people in the car, some of whom got out and tried to leave the scene immediately. When those two people head in and start shooting the place up, everyone would be calling for the cop's head for letting them get away.

That said, where's a link to the dashcam video? I'd love to see it, and it may change my mind completely when I see what happened, assuming the video shows enough. These videos have a habit of cutting in late and missing key parts of what led up to the problem.

Yes, there's an epidemic of 27-year-old women and their elderly great-aunts going into hospitals and shooting them up these days. And their wheelmen generally tend to put their hazards on to alert everyone of the impending killing spree.

[gstelmack]

Watched the first 3 minutes or so of the video. Let me see:

1) Moates runs for a full minute after the cop turns on the lights and chases him, including a "rolling stop" through a stop sign with the cop right behind him, all the way to a parking place.

2) Woman jumps out and immediately heads for the hospital. Cop tells her to get back in the car, she argues. Other woman gets out, grabs her while she's yelling and pointing at the cop, and the two head for the front door while Moates gets out and walks toward the cop car.

3) Moates argues with the cop about the license and insurance.

3 strikes and you're out. He pulls over right away and explains to the cop, he's got a much better shot of making it in and getting cooperation like EaglesFan27 mentions. Run, yell at the cop, and have two people walk away after being told to stay in the car, I'm not surprised the cop is nervous. Again, routine traffic stop in Oakland leads to four dead officers. I'd be nervous, too.

[Huckleberry]

Originally Posted by molson

Lovelle Mixon

And the people who marched in Oakland calling him a hero this week.

People rallied in the streets for Lovelle Mixon who shot four Oakland police officers - 3/26/09 - San Francisco News - abc7news.com

Next time an officer has an itchy trigger finger - maybe these thugs should share some of the blame.

No, those peopple deserve to have their asses kicked. But any officer that kills a citizen in the future because of these clowns' behavior is even more of a thug than they are.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Huckleberry

You seriously can't come up with any examples where doing something even if it's part of your job is wrong? Really?

That's what makes your argument a bad one.

I said he was doing his job with a shitty attitude.

[Travis]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

The cop was dealing with a group of multiple people in the car, some of whom got out and tried to leave the scene immediately. When those two people head in and start shooting the place up, everyone would be calling for the cop's head for letting them get away.

For the most part, this isn't what people are having a hard time with. It's the fact that he kept Moates out there for 13-20 minutes after that. I might be getting a few things wrong here, but from what I've read, what I'm getting here is that a cop see's a vehicle (with it's hazards on) roll up to a red, pause, then proceed through. He follows them to the hospital parking lot and as people get out of the vehicle, he's telling them to get back in. The woman tells him that her mother is dying and the two females proceed to the hospital while the two males remain behind and proceed to explain the situation to him while the driver is unable to find his insurance information.

So my question is, if he's willing to let the women go, not call in backup, not threaten to stop them, etc, why does he then choose to go all high and mighty on the other two even after nurses and another cop both come out to verify the story?

He did his job up to the point that the situation was explained to him in the parking lot. After that he exhibited horrible judgement (again, he could have just accompanied Moates into the hospital and figured out what fines/citations to give him once the situation is confirmed).

As it is, not only did he fail to show compassion to these people after finding out what was going on, but if you really want to look at it this way, if it were a case of evil people with designs on shooting up the hospital, he let two of them go in without stopping them while spending another 15 minutes asking for insurance papers, etc.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by molson

Lovelle Mixon

And the people who marched in Oakland calling him a hero this week.

People rallied in the streets for Lovelle Mixon who shot four Oakland police officers - 3/26/09 - San Francisco News - abc7news.com

Next time an officer has an itchy trigger finger - maybe these thugs should share some of the blame.

Those people are ignorant or might be tired of the nonsense they receive out there.

[JPhillips]

They pissed him off and he was going to make sure they understood who was the big dog.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

I think that leads to him getting the benefit of the doubt. And stil, my problem isn't with the initial stop. the problem is with him being detained for os long to check insurance even after the guy's story was being verified. I'm baffled as to how anyone thinks that's reasonable.

Every so often we have idiots around here that are driving down the freeway with their emergency/hazard lights on. Honestly it makes no sense why you would use those in any instance unless you are stopped on the side of the road or if you are trying to pull over due to your car having an issue. If you are driving down the road with them on you look like an idiot, especially for no reason.

In addition we have people driving down the freeways here with hazards on driving 15-20 MPH in the slow lane. WTF are you on the freeway if you can't go the speed of traffic, you are safer on the streets.

There are many people that don't understand when is a proper time to use your hazard lights.

In the California Drivers Handbook the only mention of emergency/hazard lights is to signal other drivers of a possible hazard ahead (such as an accident) or if you are pulled to the size of the road.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

The cop was dealing with a group of multiple people in the car, some of whom got out and tried to leave the scene immediately. When those two people head in and start shooting the place up, everyone would be calling for the cop's head for letting them get away.

Except he did let them get away and it doesn't sound like he even made an attempt to stop the others, so I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. You seem to want to continue arguing about the initial detention. Why is that? How many times do I have to say that the problem isn't with the initial detention, but the prolonged detention after a nurse AND a police officer told him the guy was legit and asked him to let him go. Are you defaulting on that point? Because you don't seem to want to address it.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Travis

So my question is, if he's willing to let the women go, not call in backup, not threaten to stop them, etc, why does he then choose to go all high and mighty on the other two even after nurses and another cop both come out to verify the story?

On the tape, he does try to get them to stop and is requesting help over the radio, but he can't handle all 3 on his own. And Moates is arguing with him almost immediately, including telling the cop to go find his insurance himself.

Seriously, the first 3 minutes of that tape sets up everything that comes after. The cop has to be nervous and stressed, and the rest of the overreaction comes from that.

Sure, the cop may have overreacted and held him longer than he needed to, but you have to put a lot of blame on Moates and the people with him for how they handled the start of it.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Except he did let them get away and it doesn't sound like he even made an attempt to stop the others, so I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. You seem to want to continue arguing about the initial detention. Why is that? How many times do I have to say that the problem isn't with the initial detention, but the prolonged detention after a nurse AND a police officer told him the guy was legit and asked him to let him go. Are you defaulting on that point? Because you don't seem to want to address it.

The initial detention sets the tone. Any traffic stop is a stressful situation for a policeman, and when the people react like this it just ratchets it up. How lucid are you after, say, being in a moderate traffic wreck, or having something else stressful hit?

Another way to put it from my point of view is why is everyone glossing over the initial reaction of Moates and the women with him?

And he tells the other two women a couple of times to get back in the car, and the younger one is yelling at him and waving her arms. A lone police officer can't handle all 3 at once.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Why, when the nurses came out to validate the story, wouldn't he at least let him go and deal with this after she passed?

[JediKooter]

Lovelle Mixon was a waste to humanity. His DNA was linked to the rape of a 12 year old girl the day before he killed those police officers.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Watched the first 3 minutes or so of the video. Let me see:

1) Moates runs for a full minute after the cop turns on the lights and chases him, including a "rolling stop" through a stop sign with the cop right behind him, all the way to a parking place.

2) Woman jumps out and immediately heads for the hospital. Cop tells her to get back in the car, she argues. Other woman gets out, grabs her while she's yelling and pointing at the cop, and the two head for the front door while Moates gets out and walks toward the cop car.

3) Moates argues with the cop about the license and insurance.

3 strikes and you're out. He pulls over right away and explains to the cop, he's got a much better shot of making it in and getting cooperation like EaglesFan27 mentions. Run, yell at the cop, and have two people walk away after being told to stay in the car, I'm not surprised the cop is nervous. Again, routine traffic stop in Oakland leads to four dead officers. I'd be nervous, too.

Okay, so your story makes the cop seem worse. If he's nervous and doesn't do anything about th epeople who ran into the hospital, but focuses ont he people who stayed behind asking htem about insurance, then he DEFINITELY deserves to be out of a job.

[Karlifornia]

The police die in the line of duty. There tons of great cops in the world. Yes, yes, a thousand times yes.

These people are trying to see a loved one in their final moments of life. Do you think you might be a little rattled yourself?

I don't want a cop that tells me he "can screw me over". Like someone said upthread, he's there to protect and serve. He went beyond protecting himself or other citizens. And he failed to serve. This was a once in a lifetime circumstance for this Moats guy. If does the same thing running late to a job interview or some bullshit, then fine, give him 10 tickets.

You know how people always give cops excuses for breaking the law, to try to garner empathy? This one was actually the truth! And it was corroborated by nurses and other police officers! And he still gave him a ticket! How does that pass the smell test of human decency at all? If this is how it's gonna be, then just start working on robots to replace cops.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Huckleberry

No, those peopple deserve to have their asses kicked. But any officer that kills a citizen in the future because of these clowns' behavior is even more of a thug than they are.

If it was concious, then definitely. I didn't mean to condone any "revenge" action by anyone - I was just referring to the fear and split-second reactions such things can cause.

Just as black citizens may react differently around white cops becaue of the publicity of certain news stories, so might white cops have an added fear around black citizens they come in contact with - knowing how many of them would celebrate their death.

So just like bad cops are bad beyond their crime for the collateral effects their bad acts cause, so are bad citizens bad beyond their actions against cops.

This cop sounds like he was a jerk (no cop should ever say "I can screw you over" - if that's really on the video, that alone is worthy of discipline). Front page status on ESPN.com though tells me people are just looking to pick fights and be mad.

[Radii]

Man, I understand what gstelmack is saying, but around the 13:30 mark when the nurse comes out and says "listen the mother is dying right now" and the cop still decides he has to admonish the driver multiple times before letting him run into the hospital... I don't see any reason for the officer to be disciplined officially or anything, but that just hurts to watch. The first 4 or 5 minutes is a high stress situation and its all understandable on both sides. But the end is just awful. Again I'm sure professionally there's nothing wrong with this, but watching the end just makes me extremely upset.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

This was a misunderstanding on both sides as these things often are.

From my first post in this thread. That's the point I'm trying to make. Everyone wants to focus on the later events and what the cop did, but no one wants to put any blame on Moates for how he and his passengers got this thing rolling. They have to take some responsibility. I mean, come on, telling the cop to go find the insurance himself? How is this going to have a good ending?

Part of what annoys me is both articles quoted in here skip over that specific quote from Moates, which helps build the early agitation over the cop.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

From my first post in this thread. That's the point I'm trying to make. Everyone wants to focus on the later events and what the cop did, but no one wants to put any blame on Moates for how he and his passengers got this thing rolling. They have to take some responsibility. I mean, come on, telling the cop to go find the insurance himself? How is this going to have a good ending?

Part of what annoys me is both articles quoted in here skip over that specific quote from Moates, which helps build the early agitation over the cop.

I think it probably comes down to people expecting more from police officers than from someone whose relative is literally minutes away from dying.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by molson

People LOVE the jerk cop stories. It just sets something off.

Four murdered cops in Oakland doesn't arise the same kind of passion.

We often talk about stuff that isn't the very worst thing possible. It would be a pretty borinbg board if we restricted ourselves to that. I think it's a safe bet that everyone here thinks the person who killed those police officers isn evil scumbag. If you want to have a discussion of it because you don't think it gets enough attention, maybe you should start a thread about it. But it's silly to say we can't be upset about this because something else happened that is much worse.

[molson]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

I think it probably comes down to people expecting more from police officers than from someone whose relative is literally minutes away from dying.

That's probably reasonable to expect more from the officer, but if you want to make sure you're with that dying relative - don't break laws and mouth off at cops. The moral validation you get from the community afterwards probably isn't worth what you lost. (though I think to some people, it actually might be). I think it makes someone feel energized and "alive" when you feel you have moral superiority to someone in authority.

[molson]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

We often talk about stuff that isn't the very worst thing possible. It would be a pretty borinbg board if we restricted ourselves to that. I think it's a safe bet that everyone here thinks the person who killed those police officers isn evil scumbag. If you want to have a discussion of it because you don't think it gets enough attention, maybe you should start a thread about it. But it's silly to say we can't be upset about this because something else happened that is much worse.

That's true, and I think when I said that, I had an expectation that this thread would go in a different direction.

[Pyser]

is not ok to break the law (speed, run reds when its safe) when your wife is in labor? i thought that was kind of accepted in a real emergency situation.

this qualifies as one to me.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

Not just insurance. Arrest warrants, too.

In my experience, checking for outstanding warrants is routine procedure on every traffic stop. It is here in Georgia at least, has been as far back as I can remember, at least 25 years or so.