Soccer Thread 2022-2023

[sovereignstar v2]

I knew there was a good reason to tune into the late match.

[SirFozzie]

LOL Manchester "United"

[miami_fan]

So Southampton is feeling a bit threatened by this performance by Manchester United.

[bhlloy]

This is some of the best entertainment in a long time

[sovereignstar v2]

Not in my lifetime.

[flere-imsaho]

I'll take relegation at this point if it means the Glazers sell up.

[Critch]

[sovereignstar v2]

I'm starting to have an unhealthy obsession with this lass.

https://youtu.be/hl11Af25ndQ

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I'll take relegation at this point if it means the Glazers sell up.

Why do you have a problem with the Glazers? I believe the Glazer ownership is problematic but I don't think a change of ownership will solve what is ailing the club on the pitch.

[sovereignstar v2]

The only way new owners help is if they completely clean house. They need to fuck Ferguson off and just about any person that has made decisions or had influence at the club in the last 10 years.

I can't remember the last time they made a great transfer. Van Persie? I swear that a large part of their transfer policy has been to take note who City show interest in and outbid or offer higher wages. But their players never improve.

They have a decent manager now, but their squad (which has to be near or at the top of money spent on) is 95% shit. It needs to be completely overhauled. Why do they have De Gea playing out from the back? Pep came to City and one of the first things he did was ship Joe Hart out.

At this point they are a mid-table club and probably 4-5 years from seriously competing for anything if they start acting now (spoiler alert: they won't).

[bhlloy]

Do we know they’ve now got a decent manager? Ten Haag played some great stuff and won some big games at Ajax, but so did Frank De Boer and he flopped about as hard as possible in Italy and England couldn’t even succeed in MLS after. And his one big money signing so far who everyone said might not be able to succeed at center back in the prem has looked worse than I think the haters would have hoped so far.

Obviously it’s ridiculously early but I don’t think you are feeling great so far as a United fan.

[miami_fan]

Ah yes, now that Covid has disappeared, handshake controversy is back.

[sovereignstar v2]

Spurs snatch a point because of more terrible refereeing and VAR. Cucarella is yanked down by his hair during a corner kick. Clear as day and no free kick/card/sending off or whatever. Spurs score on ensuing corner.

[bhlloy]

Absolutely disgraceful refereeing, from England's world cup referee no less. I like that the Prem lets VAR impact the game less, but he just completely lost the plot of that game after he inexplicably just decided to stop calling fouls starting with the first Spurs goal.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

Do we know they’ve now got a decent manager? Ten Haag played some great stuff and won some big games at Ajax, but so did Frank De Boer and he flopped about as hard as possible in Italy and England couldn’t even succeed in MLS after. And his one big money signing so far who everyone said might not be able to succeed at center back in the prem has looked worse than I think the haters would have hoped so far.

Obviously it’s ridiculously early but I don’t think you are feeling great so far as a United fan.

For some United fans, unless Sir Alex and David Gil are coming back to their respective posts, there will never be another decent manager at Old Trafford again. I believe that Ten Hag is a decent manager. I also believe that Ole, Jose, Van Gaal and Moyes are or were decent managers when they managed Manchester United.

I know sov is a biased Manchester City fan but I think he is mostly right in this case. At some point, someone has to decide what the plan is for Manchester United going forward. The fact that everyone on the football side has let it get to this point disqualifies them from being a part of that side moving forward. They got their feelings hurt when Rangnick said what needed to be done. I don't care if he was not the person to say it or be in charge of the reorganization. He was correct in his assessment of the club. I don't think it necessarily needs to take five years though. I think the structure could be put in place this year and United could be competing for titles by year 3 of Ten Hag's United tenure if significant changes are put into place now.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

Do we know they’ve now got a decent manager? Ten Haag played some great stuff and won some big games at Ajax, but so did Frank De Boer and he flopped about as hard as possible in Italy and England couldn’t even succeed in MLS after. And his one big money signing so far who everyone said might not be able to succeed at center back in the prem has looked worse than I think the haters would have hoped so far.

Obviously it’s ridiculously early but I don’t think you are feeling great so far as a United fan.

There is no comparison for two reasons. Firstly, as a coach, Erik ten Hag (not "Haag") has a much better track record than Frank de Boer.
But more importantly, neither De Boer or Ten Hag had a track record as a manager to speak of, as that's a completely separate job at Ajax and pretty much every football club in the Netherlands. Quite simply, Ten Hag has no experience in the management line of work.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Why do you have a problem with the Glazers? I believe the Glazer ownership is problematic but I don't think a change of ownership will solve what is ailing the club on the pitch.

This guy actually summed it up pretty well:

Originally Posted by miami_fan

At some point, someone has to decide what the plan is for Manchester United going forward. The fact that everyone on the football side has let it get to this point disqualifies them from being a part of that side moving forward. They got their feelings hurt when Rangnick said what needed to be done. I don't care if he was not the person to say it or be in charge of the reorganization. He was correct in his assessment of the club.

IMO, all of this comes back to the owners. Successful clubs, by and large, like successful organizations in other spheres, set up a structure of people who know what they're doing, establish clear goals, and ensure that everyone stays committed to and focused on those goals.

Just compare and contrast to how the hierarchy is set up at both Man City and Liverpool, for instance.

The Glazers, instead, put Woodward in charge, who had no idea what he was doing. He then hired a series of dramatically different managers under what we must guess was an assumption that if you just find someone good enough, they'll make the whole thing work, like Fergie did. But a) Fergie had Gill and 20+ years of building the institution and b) these clubs are now simply too big for someone to run the whole thing. Even Guardiola & Klopp don't run the whole thing.

Worse, without some sort of footballing vision, those dramatically different managers have left United with a playing squad that doesn't work well together.

Take Aaron Wan-Bissaka, for instance. He excelled at Crystal Palace because his excellent one-on-one defense suited a club that would routinely be overwhelmed by better opponents. However, in the modern game, top clubs need fullbacks who have attacking skills, which he clearly did not, and still does not, have. Nevertheless, he worked OK/well for Solskjaer because Solskjaer was playing a mainly reactive counter-attacking system. But when you bring in a "modern" tactical coach like ETH, who is looking to play a high line and needs attacking full backs to spread the field and provide creative options, AWB is a liability.

I don't need the Glazers to know about football. Goodness knows John Henry didn't when he bought Liverpool and the same is true for Khaldoon Al Mubarak and Sheik Mansour.

What I need is for them to hire highly competent people who have specialist experience in managing football clubs and let them go and do that. Arnold, an accountant, is not that. Murtough, for all his experience in development and sports science, is showing from his choices since he got the job from Woodward, that he is not up to the task. And anyway, why would we think Woodward's right-hand man would be the answer? Fletcher has far too little experience. Compare these to their counterparts at the other top EPL clubs, and even mid-table ones like Brighton, and they come up very short.

So, why do I have a problem with the Glazers? Because clearly none of this changes while they own the club. It's been 10 years since Ferguson retired. They've shown no ability to learn from experience and move the club in the direction of a modern club. And why would they? They inherited everything from their father. They've never built anything themselves. They've never had to do the really hard work of buckling down and making something work that is not working, because they were born into wealth and have stayed in wealth. I have very little faith that any of this will change.

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

There is no comparison for two reasons. Firstly, as a coach, Erik ten Hag (not "Haag") has a much better track record than Frank de Boer.
But more importantly, neither De Boer or Ten Hag had a track record as a manager to speak of, as that's a completely separate job at Ajax and pretty much every football club in the Netherlands. Quite simply, Ten Hag has no experience in the management line of work.

This is a really good point. A lot of the stuff with which ETH is struggling are the greater "management" scope he didn't have to do at Ajax. And that's really bad at Man Utd because no one else in the organization really knows what they're doing so just like all of the appointments since Moyes, the hierarchy is looking for him to fix everything.

To be honest, I'm not even sure Guardiola, Klopp, Conte, Tuchel, Ancelotti, etc... would be able to succeed at Man Utd the way things are now.

[sovereignstar v2]

United starting to get linked with everyone and their mother now. Panic setting in. They are going to have to throw heavy wages around to get any sort of quality. Like FDJ type wages, but not himself because who would want to move to United if you are under contract with Barcelona.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by sovereignstar v2

United starting to get linked with everyone and their mother now. Panic setting in. They are going to have to throw heavy wages around to get any sort of quality. Like FDJ type wages, but not himself because who would want to move to United if you are under contract with Barcelona.

Manchester and Barcelona both really are not the places to be in football at this moment in time, unless it's Skyblue feeling like burning another $40M on you as they laugh at the FA's miserable attempt to install any kind of financial fair play.

[sovereignstar v2]

Oh, it's you again. Interesting timing as City made a very net positive this transfer window. Income is up there with all the top clubs and the club is self-sustainable.

I'm sorry to inform you that financial fair play was only established to keep the cartel safe. It's safe now, but only after what is now one of the most well-run clubs from top to bottom snuck in. Peace!

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by sovereignstar v2

United starting to get linked with everyone and their mother now. Panic setting in.

To be fair, every transfer window since SAF & Gill left has felt like this. Remember them signing Fellaini for 4M more than his release clause because Woodward & Moyes thought they could get him for less?

It's been 10 fucking years and still no one has any idea what they're doing.

[miami_fan]

I know it is just the 5th place team from the Danish SuperLiga so many won't see it as a big deal. I know it is just Africans players so many won't see it as a big deal. However, this is BS and UEFA should be embarrassed that this was allowed to happen.

Viborg lose two African players for West Ham playoff due to UK entry rules | Europa Conference League | The Guardian.

[flere-imsaho]

That's utterly ridiculous.

[Critch]

70mil for a 30 year old Casemiro is ridiculous too. Plus a huge salary til he's 35.

[flere-imsaho]

Yes, that's also ridiculous.

[flere-imsaho]

To give another example, a few years ago N'Golo Kante was out of favor at Chelsea. Man Utd had Paul Pogba in the side. In the French side, it was clear that Kante's contributions were a big part of the reason why Pogba performed a lot better for France than Utd (it wasn't all that, but still).

At the time, Utd could have swooped in and solved a pretty big problem, but you never, ever, ever heard about them considering it.

[flere-imsaho]

Well, at least they're being consistent. This is an organization that replaced Carrick with Schneiderlin, who was clearly not up to the task, and then pivoted to Matic, who was too old and slow to do the task, and now they'll have Casemiro who, given that Real Madrid have already signed and bedded in his replacements, is likely to be unable to perform at an EPL level in short order.

Some decent shade from Ancelotti, announcing Casemiro's departure today:

Casemiro's teammates understand his decision, they respect it - it was his will to try a new challenge and we have to accept it. I can't reply to why Casemiro traded European Champions for a struggling side, it's his personal decision.

[bhlloy]

The counterpoint is if United don’t sign somebody in midfield, they are in genuine danger of being in a relegation battle.

Is that salary and wage outrageous… of course it is. But in a world where Gibbs-White goes for 25m plus maybe another 20m in addons, I’m not sure it’s in a class of its own. Prices are back to crazy post Covid it seems.

[flere-imsaho]

To be clear, I'm not saying they shouldn't sign Casemiro right now. I'm saying they shouldn't be in a position where they need to do these panic buys at the end of the summer transfer window. And, additionally, they shouldn't be chronically in a position where they need to do these panic buys at the end of either the summer or January window.

For the amount they're paying for Casemiro and were prepared to pay for Antony (a highly-rated young player from the Eredivisie, where have we heard that before?), they probably could have bought Declan Rice, a proven operator in the EPL at the base of midfield.


I mean, back in January (and honestly before), anyone who follows this club knew they needed / would need (with pending summer departures) the following in order of priority:

1. A holding midfielder in the Carrick / Thiago / Rodri mould.

2. A right back who can attack and defend competently at an EPL level.

3. At least cover at center forward given the pending departure of Cavani, the continuing underwhelming of Martial, and Ronaldo being 37 (even if you don't want to make the argument that he's not right for the team, which is an argument I'm more than willing to make), if not an upgrade.

4. A definitive EPL-ready upgrade at centre back.

5. Competition for Shaw at left back.

6. More creativity and quality in attacking midfield.


We're sitting here in August and:

1. Casemiro, a short-term solution (assuming he doesn't immediately drop off like Schweinsteiger did) on a long-term contract from which United will definitely not be able to move him on.

2. Nope.

3. Nope, though I'm sure a panic buy is incoming, or maybe another winger/inside forward (e.g. Pulisic) will be signed instead.

4. Jury's out on Martinez.

5. Jury's out on Malacia.

6. Eriksen. Nailed this one. Congrats.


If my boss gave me a list of 6 assignments in January and I nailed one, completed another way over budget, had to convince him I completed two, and whiffed on the other two, I'm reasonably sure I'd be fired.

[sovereignstar v2]

Casemiro is a good player, but doesn't seem like an ETH player. It does reek of a desperation buy to appease the fans, but I suppose they had to do something. I just never know what their plan is.

[Ksyrup]

I suppose there comes a point where it becomes (or is) financially irresponsible NOT to sell Fofana, but Leicester better not go on a full sell-off because this team looks like it's going to be fighting to stay in the top 12, at best. And a few injuries and balls dropping the wrong way and its a bottom 5 squad. I've never seen a team (the past couple of years) so uncomfortable playing with a lead, or even after scoring. They almost always give goals back and/or blow leads. Blech.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

I suppose there comes a point where it becomes (or is) financially irresponsible NOT to sell Fofana, but Leicester better not go on a full sell-off because this team looks like it's going to be fighting to stay in the top 12, at best. And a few injuries and balls dropping the wrong way and its a bottom 5 squad. I've never seen a team (the past couple of years) so uncomfortable playing with a lead, or even after scoring. They almost always give goals back and/or blow leads. Blech.

Top 12 is being generous for LCFC at this point. To be fair, I am seeing a team finishing closer to 15th so not a huge difference. I still have confidence that they will bring a few players. The financial might of the EPL will always allow LCFC to go to mid table to bottom feeders and even some of the top four in the other top leagues and make them offers they can not refuse. Of course that is contingent that they make that one big sale.

[Ksyrup]

I suppose it's my North American sports fan cynicism that makes me question how any top tier soccer team can lose money. So many global revenue streams, it's hard not to believe they are hiding profits somewhere. I refuse to believe only US owners do it.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

To be clear, I'm not saying they shouldn't sign Casemiro right now. I'm saying they shouldn't be in a position where they need to do these panic buys at the end of the summer transfer window. And, additionally, they shouldn't be chronically in a position where they need to do these panic buys at the end of either the summer or January window.

For the amount they're paying for Casemiro and were prepared to pay for Antony (a highly-rated young player from the Eredivisie, where have we heard that before?), they probably could have bought Declan Rice, a proven operator in the EPL at the base of midfield.


I mean, back in January (and honestly before), anyone who follows this club knew they needed / would need (with pending summer departures) the following in order of priority:

1. A holding midfielder in the Carrick / Thiago / Rodri mould.

2. A right back who can attack and defend competently at an EPL level.

3. At least cover at center forward given the pending departure of Cavani, the continuing underwhelming of Martial, and Ronaldo being 37 (even if you don't want to make the argument that he's not right for the team, which is an argument I'm more than willing to make), if not an upgrade.

4. A definitive EPL-ready upgrade at centre back.

5. Competition for Shaw at left back.

6. More creativity and quality in attacking midfield.


We're sitting here in August and:

1. Casemiro, a short-term solution (assuming he doesn't immediately drop off like Schweinsteiger did) on a long-term contract from which United will definitely not be able to move him on.

2. Nope.

3. Nope, though I'm sure a panic buy is incoming, or maybe another winger/inside forward (e.g. Pulisic) will be signed instead.

4. Jury's out on Martinez.

5. Jury's out on Malacia.

6. Eriksen. Nailed this one. Congrats.


If my boss gave me a list of 6 assignments in January and I nailed one, completed another way over budget, had to convince him I completed two, and whiffed on the other two, I'm reasonably sure I'd be fired.

Without even getting into the FFP considerations, the problem United still has is getting rid of the dead weight on the squad. For example, you already outlined how Real Madrid dealt with the loss of Casemiro before he had even left the club. Now that Casemiro at United, who's leaving? What club is paying for the privilege of taking Fred, Mctominay, or maybe Van de Beek off of Manchester United's hands. All of them can't be Casemiro's backup. That is over $80 million just rotting away on the bench. I guess you can send them to training with the kids or pull a Barcelona to try to force them out. It is the same for most of the positions you outlined. They have only been able to make $65 million in the last three season including the current one. Half of that was made sending Daniel James to Leeds.

The Casemiro signing brings in a quality player that fills an immediate need. As bhlloy said, it is not as over the top as some of the signings we are seeing. Hopefully there is a youngster in the squad or the academy who can serve as Casemiro's understudy in the cups and dead rubber European games while one of the McFred De Beek can provide occasional backup as well. I have no idea what they have in the youth ranks. My goal for this year would be to try and trim the roster as much as possible, bring in maybe one more mid range striker and fill in the rest with the youth as see where I am next summer. Hopefully, they will be serious about changing the culture of the club.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

I suppose it's my North American sports fan cynicism that makes me question how any top tier soccer team can lose money. So many global revenue streams, it's hard not to believe they are hiding profits somewhere. I refuse to believe only US owners do it.

Nothing North American about it, it certainly is silly how there's going so much money around in the top flight of this sport and all but maybe FC Bayern are virtually bankrupt. The average fan just looks away, or pretends that only their own club isn't doing shady things.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Critch

70mil for a 30 year old Casemiro is ridiculous too. Plus a huge salary til he's 35.

When Manchester City bought Erling Haaland for roughly €60M, there and then the absolute maximum for any player to be this summer transfer window was set. No player in the world is worth more than him, or maybe Kylian Mbappe is on the same level.

Honestly, this is not another one of my complaints about Manchester City. When the biggest spender in the world buys the most promising striker in the world, then that that figure should be the absolute roof for everything that happens after that. It should have snowballed into all transfer fees getting lower, unintentionally it should have set the new standard of lowered insanity.

But it didn't.

Real Madrid spent €80M on a no-name defensive midfielder and managed to got €70M of that spending back from Manchester United for a defensive midfielder with no resell value.

Liverpool spent $75M on the top goal scorer from a second tier league.

Chelsea spent €65M on a no-name wingback.

And the list goes on and on...

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

I suppose it's my North American sports fan cynicism that makes me question how any top tier soccer team can lose money. So many global revenue streams, it's hard not to believe they are hiding profits somewhere. I refuse to believe only US owners do it.

Simple: there's no salary cap.

[flere-imsaho]

I thought the only reason that Haaland was 60M was because he had a release clause at that amount that kicked in after his first year?

[SirFozzie]

Plus in American leagues, there's minimal danger in being bad. In other soccer leagues, you are one of the worst teams, you don't get a pat on the head and some extra goodies to make you try harder next time, you get shoved down a trap door and told to climb back up again... if you can.

Plus in recent years, the fans have become a lot more.. physical in demanding effort and investment in their teams.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Simple: there's no salary cap.

There certainly is one. The mess in Barcelona over the last two summers is the direct result of it. But in other countries the football association shies away from enforcing their own rules, or find themselves unable to prove that clubs tamper with their profit numbers, effectively the sky becomes the limit.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I thought the only reason that Haaland was 60M was because he had a release clause at that amount that kicked in after his first year?

Pretty much.

Tho with various fees, commissions, etc, it did swell to something just north of 80 million

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I thought the only reason that Haaland was 60M was because he had a release clause at that amount that kicked in after his first year?

It was, without such a clause he would have cost €150M to €200M. My "should be the max" is too much wishful thinking there will ever be sanity in this world.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Simple: there's no salary cap.

This. I have already seen how Jerry Jones and that guy in Washington acted in an uncapped year.

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Plus in American leagues, there's minimal danger in being bad. In other soccer leagues, you are one of the worst teams, you don't get a pat on the head and some extra goodies to make you try harder next time, you get shoved down a trap door and told to climb back up again... if you can.

Plus in recent years, the fans have become a lot more.. physical in demanding effort and investment in their teams.

And this. Norwich City were the worst team in the EPL, went down and the club lost at least $55 million dollars. The Jags were the worst team in the NFL, maintained their NFL status and everything that comes with that AND got the first chance to select from the country's best youth prospects in the sport. Prospects that the Jags did not have to develop themselves or pay another team for developing which leads me to..

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

It was, without such a clause he would have cost €150M to €200M. My "should be the max" is too much wishful thinking there will ever be sanity in this world.

Thought experiment. How much would teams pay for the registrations of the best players in their respective sport? Jokes aside, how much would an NBA team have paid Vincent-St. Mary High School for a Lebron James transfer? Especially considering a 17 year old Jude Bellingham garnered a $27.5 million to transfer from the third tier of English football to the Bundesliga. Would Dan Gilbert have preferred getting a $100 million transfer fee or whatever the draft compensation he got in the sign and trade with Miami? A small club like Green Bay would have no choice but to accept the record breaking fee for a 30 year old Aaron Rodgers from the Silicon Valley funded 49ers right? I mean we are sort of seeing this play out with NIL and college sports.

I get the frustration though.

[miami_fan]

Hey look at that, the Cottagers are in the Champions League if the season ended today

[Ksyrup]

Mendy... sheesh.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

There certainly is one. The mess in Barcelona over the last two summers is the direct result of it. But in other countries the football association shies away from enforcing their own rules, or find themselves unable to prove that clubs tamper with their profit numbers, effectively the sky becomes the limit.

OK fine. Effectively, there is no salary cap.

Or, to go back to answering Ksyrup's question a little more directly, in most leagues*, there's no real guardrails to keep clubs from spending more than they can afford, and conversely a lot of incentive to do just that in chasing the more money available in either a) the top league in their country and/or b) UCL money.


*probably not the Bundesliga

[HomerSimpson98]

Those were 2 fun matches to take in on Sunday. Highly entertaining

[bhlloy]

Liverpool look like they’ve fallen into the FM trap where you don’t want to let your team leaders go and destroy your team cohesion, so you hang onto them as key squad players for a season too long. Both Henderson and Milner look well off the pace at this level tonight.

[sovereignstar v2]

UNITED. ARE. BACK.

[sovereignstar v2]

Glazers IN