WW 110 - Mortal Kombat (Game Over) OUTWORLD WINS

[ntndeacon]

Just checking in.

[Danny]

Heading out, will be back in 7-8 hours or so if I am as efficient as I hope to be today.

[J23]

Checking in.

[Telle]

Good morning all. Checking in.

[EagleFan]

I will be out of thread for a while today but am off so I will be able to check in from time to time, when near my computer, without having to "sneak" the time in. We need to get the voting and conversaton started.

May not be a good reason for this vote in some eyes but going with a vote on a historically quiet player. In a small game we need active players early in the game so we don't have to rely on luck.

vote ntndeacon

[Autumn]

I agree with this reasoning EF, but I picked on NTN and Telle last game on that basis. I don't want to just turn it so that they're the Day 1 goats instead of the usual suspects. I will vote Jackal to get things moving as well. He is sometimes quiet, sometimes not, but not someone who it seems like lately has been getting a lot of early action.

vote jackal

[ntndeacon]

Vote Eagle
This is just a retalitory vote. That reasoning has happenedthe last few games giving me early votes. So I may have to get retaliatory for the next couple games. at least for day one votes.

[ntndeacon]

I am currently under the assumption we have 2 wolves. Also I wonder how many other roles, (those vanilla villagers and wolves) we have. There are 10 listed. I am also assuming that several of those roles are not among the combatants. So we know at least one and probably 3-4.

[EagleFan]

As of 58:

EagleFan 2 - PurdueBrad (41), ntndeacon (57)
ntndeacon 1 - EagleFan (55)
Jackal 1 - Autumn (56)

[The Jackal]

checking in, nothing really to say yet

[Poli]

Are we allowed to say who we are?

Vote Danny

[Telle]

Originally Posted by Poli

Are we allowed to say who we are?

Vote Danny

I'm not sure it would be a great idea anyways, as it would help the wolves to narrow down the list for seer hunting.

[Lathum]

Vote Poli

I don't think we need to revisit my reason why.

[PurdueBrad]

Wow, five candidates already in a small game.

[EagleFan]

As of 64:

EagleFan 2 - PurdueBrad (41), ntndeacon (57)
ntndeacon 1 - EagleFan (55)
Jackal 1 - Autumn (56)
Danny 1 - Poli (61)
Poli 1 - Lathum (63)

[EagleFan]

unvote ntn

vote Lathum

As I said before, voting Poli because he has a day one pattern really isn't any different than Poli having a day one pattern. If he makes that vote just prior to the deadline even though his "normal" day one target was not in the vote then I would have more of an issue with it.

The problem is that Poli is now in a damned if he does and damned if he doesn't corner. The first time he votes for someone other than number 1 he'll end up being targeted because he didn't vote for number 1.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

unvote ntn

vote Lathum

As I said before, voting Poli because he has a day one pattern really isn't any different than Poli having a day one pattern. If he makes that vote just prior to the deadline even though his "normal" day one target was not in the vote then I would have more of an issue with it.

The problem is that Poli is now in a damned if he does and damned if he doesn't corner. The first time he votes for someone other than number 1 he'll end up being targeted because he didn't vote for number 1.

I disagree. I don't think his "system" is helpful to the village. In fact, I think it's harmful. It effectively removes his day 1 vote from being able to be analyzed later in any meaningful way. That has proven helpful to him in the past when he was a wolf.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

The problem is that Poli is now in a damned if he does and damned if he doesn't corner. The first time he votes for someone other than number 1 he'll end up being targeted because he didn't vote for number 1.

Not by me he wont. And remember, last game he was a wolf and was able to hide his vote behind his strategy.

Vote me if you like, I am a vanilla villager so it wont be any big loss.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by KWhit

I disagree. I don't think his "system" is helpful to the village. In fact, I think it's harmful. It effectively removes his day 1 vote from being able to be analyzed later in any meaningful way. That has proven helpful to him in the past when he was a wolf.

Any of the recent games can show you that day one votes are not as cleanly deciphered as they used to be. Any of the early day one votes are pretty random, even the wolves are making them look that way. Where the analysis comes in is late day one to see where the moves happen.

[Lathum]

What KWhit said, and interesting how quick you unvoted then jumped on me EF.

[EagleFan]

dola: How is his vote and PB's vote any different?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Any of the recent games can show you that day one votes are not as cleanly deciphered as they used to be. Any of the early day one votes are pretty random, even the wolves are making them look that way. Where the analysis comes in is late day one to see where the moves happen.

This is where we disagree.

As a wolf your day one vote is never random. You know who the wolves and villagers are, so there is some reasoning for your vote.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by Lathum

What KWhit said, and interesting how quick you unvoted then jumped on me EF.

See post below from three days ago where I made it clear that I would defend his right to vote his pattern. Not sure what's so interesting about me following my word.

With that said I will probably have to move at some point if I need to do a self-defense vote.

Originally Posted by EagleFan

double dola: I'll defend Poli's right to vote Danny this game and don't think he should be looked at just because he has a day one pattern. If he votes that pattern early there is nothing that anyone should be able to say about that as we all need to come up with a day one vote anyway and have nothing to go off (unless we are wolves).

Wanted to say something last game but couldn't.

Now if Poli were to show up 5 minutes before the deadline and vote Danny (because he is person number 1) but the vote was a race between 2 or 3 others and Danny was nowhere in sight of that race; that would be entirely different.

The problem that I see is the logic was used against him last game and by chance he was a wolf. That makes the arguement look valid instead of looking at the other games where he did it and wasn't a wolf.

It's like I said, the following logic seems to come into play based upon day one votes:

- Voted early, must be a wolf
- Voted late, must be a wolf
- Gave a reason for the vote that has nothing to do with this game, must be a wolf
- Gave a reason that sounds like it's about this game, must be a wolf trying to sway opinion
- Gave no reason, must be a wolf
- Used random.org, must be a wolf
- Didn't use random.org but just randomly chose, must be a wolf
- Broke a tie, must be a wolf
- Tied it up, must be a wolf
- Vote in self defense, must be a wolf
- Didn't vote in self defense, must be a wolf
- Moved you vote off a player that wasn't in the running onto one that was, must be a wolf
- Left your vote on someone who wasn't in the running instead of moving to one that was, must be a wolf
- Voted for someone who was lynched and turned out to be a wolf, must be a wolf trying to gain trust
- Voted for someone who was lynched and turned out to be a villager, must be a wolf
- Voted for the second place vote getter and the one who was lynched turned out to be a wolf, must be a wolf trying to protect the other one
- Voted for the second place vote getter and the one who was lynched turned out to be a villager, must be a wolf trying to earn trust or hide

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

dola: How is his vote and PB's vote any different?

I'm not really familiar with his and your history. I'm sure I've been around for games where it has happened and been discussed, but I don't really recall previous games where it bothered me. It is equally unhelpful, IMO, and I don't get it. Why bother voting at all on day 1 if you aren't going to vote with some purpose?

The point of the matter is that a predefined choice for any vote (day one or otherwise) is only helpful to you if you are a wolf as it gives you an "out" for a day's vote as far as analysis is concerned. It does nothing to help the village and can conceivably help the wolves. It doesn't matter if it's only a very slight help. Any help is help that the village can't afford.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by Lathum

This is where we disagree.

As a wolf your day one vote is never random. You know who the wolves and villagers are, so there is some reasoning for your vote.

Not entirely true. Many times wolves will pretty much make a random vote if they vote early. The majority of the time the only wolf votes that mean much are the ones that vote late (when they see they can swing a vote to suit their needs).

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

See post below from three days ago where I made it clear that I would defend his right to vote his pattern. Not sure what's so interesting about me following my word.

It's immaterial IMO if you said you would defend it. Why defend it at all? At least Lathum is using some in-game reason to place his vote somewhere instead of "who signed up first."

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Not entirely true. Many times wolves will pretty much make a random vote if they vote early. The majority of the time the only wolf votes that mean much are the ones that vote late (when they see they can swing a vote to suit their needs).

again not true.

It can't be a truly random vote if you know the alligence of other players.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by KWhit

I'm not really familiar with his and your history. I'm sure I've been around for games where it has happened and been discussed, but I don't really recall previous games where it bothered me. It is equally unhelpful, IMO, and I don't get it. Why bother voting at all on day 1 if you aren't going to vote with some purpose?

The point of the matter is that a predefined choice for any vote (day one or otherwise) is only helpful to you if you are a wolf as it gives you an "out" for a day's vote as far as analysis is concerned. It does nothing to help the village and can conceivably help the wolves. It doesn't matter if it's only a very slight help. Any help is help that the village can't afford.

Not familiar? Read the thread, from the moment he signed up we made it clear he was voting me on day one. Obviously this was before he knew if he was a villager or wolf so how is that any different from knowing that Poli was voting Danny?

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Not entirely true. Many times wolves will pretty much make a random vote if they vote early. The majority of the time the only wolf votes that mean much are the ones that vote late (when they see they can swing a vote to suit their needs).

It's not random if the voter knows who the wolves are. That's not random at all.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Not familiar? Read the thread, from the moment he signed up we made it clear he was voting me on day one. Obviously this was before he knew if he was a villager or wolf so how is that any different from knowing that Poli was voting Danny?

I did read the thread. Reread my post. I said I'm not familiar with your two's HISTORY. Meaning what has happened between you guys in previous games.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by Lathum

again not true.

It can't be a truly random vote if you know the alligence of other players.

Yes it can. Just knowing the allegance of a player doesn't mean the vote cannot be random.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by KWhit

I did read the thread. Reread my post. I said I'm not familiar with your two's HISTORY. Meaning what has happened between you guys in previous games.

Regardless of history or not, how is one person saying they are voting player A prior to the roles coming out any different from another person saying they are voting person B prior to roles coming out?

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Yes it can. Just knowing the allegance of a player doesn't mean the vote cannot be random.

Huh?

If a wolf is voting, they make a choice on whether they want to vote for a wolf or a villager. It is a choice. It's not random.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Regardless of history or not, how is one person saying they are voting player A prior to the roles coming out any different from another person saying they are voting person B prior to roles coming out?

Dude, I said that I don't get the reasons behind it, since I don't know the history, but I agree that it is unhelpful to the village - just like Poli's vote. I don't see them as very different at all. Why did you get the idea that I did?

[EagleFan]

dola: Poli, PB, whoever.... is not in the game to win for the village, they are in it to win for themselves. Who are eithe of you to say they have to go with a strategy that is, as you classify it, village friendly?

It is just as random that either are wolves or village no matter what vote they make. Hell, what you are doing is just the same as what they are doing. YOUR vote is not random at all either!!!!

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by KWhit

Dude, I said that I don't get the reasons behind it, since I don't know the history, but I agree that it is unhelpful to the village - just like Poli's vote. I don't see them as very different at all. Why did you get the idea that I did?

Sorry, I just only see one person being jumped on because of their "plan". It just seemed rather hypocritical to me.

How is Lathum's "plan" to vote Poli because of his "plan" any different than what Poli is doing?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Yes it can. Just knowing the allegance of a player doesn't mean the vote cannot be random.

Originally Posted by KWhit

Huh?

If a wolf is voting, they make a choice on whether they want to vote for a wolf or a villager. It is a choice. It's not random.

Yeah, you're not making sense EF.

As a villager I have no idea of the alligence of the other players, as a wolf you do, hence you make an educated vote D1. You also coordinate your vote with other wolves, or decide if you are going to get cute and vote for a wolf. This is the info that helps determine who is a wolf when we go back and look later in the game. Poli's way of voting removes all of that.

Now you may be making a random choice among the villagers you are voting for, but there is nothing random about a wolfs D1 vote.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Yeah, you're not making sense EF.

As a villager I have no idea of the alligence of the other players, as a wolf you do, hence you make an educated vote D1. You also coordinate your vote with other wolves, or decide if you are going to get cute and vote for a wolf. This is the info that helps determine who is a wolf when we go back and look later in the game. Poli's way of voting removes all of that.

Now you may be making a random choice among the villagers you are voting for, but there is nothing random about a wolfs D1 vote.

And your vote of Poli is "villager friendly" how?

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

dola: Poli, PB, whoever.... is not in the game to win for the village, they are in it to win for themselves. Who are eithe of you to say they have to go with a strategy that is, as you classify it, village friendly?

It is just as random that either are wolves or village no matter what vote they make. Hell, what you are doing is just the same as what they are doing. YOUR vote is not random at all either!!!!

I have no idea what you are talking about. Seriously.

I always try to play the game in ways to maximize a win for whichever team I'm playing on. I don't know what you mean by "They are in it to win for themselves."

And no, I am using a logical argument to try to make a vote that helps the village. Like I've said 5 times, it is a very small amount of benefit, but I do absolutely believe that going with some sort of voting system that effectively removes you from voting analysis later on is slightly helpful to the wolves. So I will look to vote for them over just some random person.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Sorry, I just only see one person being jumped on because of their "plan". It just seemed rather hypocritical to me.

How is Lathum's "plan" to vote Poli because of his "plan" any different than what Poli is doing?

It is very different.

My "plan" was not to vote Poli. I voted Poli in response to the way he voted. Isn't that what we do in werewolf?

I did not come into the game, prior to the game even starting saying "I am going to vote Poli," I voted him based on the fact that he predetermined his vote, befor the game even started, and that to me doesn't help the village.

[KWhit]

So after all this talk, I think I'll put a vote out there.

VOTE POLI

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

And your vote of Poli is "villager friendly" how?

because Poli's D1 vote and the way he arrived at it doesn't help us at all in the long run.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by Lathum

It is very different.

My "plan" was not to vote Poli. I voted Poli in response to the way he voted. Isn't that what we do in werewolf?

I did not come into the game, prior to the game even starting saying "I am going to vote Poli," I voted him based on the fact that he predetermined his vote, befor the game even started, and that to me doesn't help the village.

The end result is that it is still the same. You came into the game with the plan of voting for Poli if he followed the pattern which he has been following. that means that you vote is just as "unrandom" as his. Which means neither vote helps the village. Add PB's vote into that and we now have 3 votes which cannot be seen as helping the village.

[Lathum]

See, this is where I disagree with you EF.

My vote for Poli is in response to his vote. Poli choose to vote the way he has been, hence I voted for him based on that. My vote was far from decided prior to the game starting, but when Poli placed his vote that set things into motion, again I will ask you, isn't that what werewolf is all about?

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by KWhit

I have no idea what you are talking about. Seriously.

I always try to play the game in ways to maximize a win for whichever team I'm playing on. I don't know what you mean by "They are in it to win for themselves."

And no, I am using a logical argument to try to make a vote that helps the village. Like I've said 5 times, it is a very small amount of benefit, but I do absolutely believe that going with some sort of voting system that effectively removes you from voting analysis later on is slightly helpful to the wolves. So I will look to vote for them over just some random person.

Poli is in the game to win it for whatever team he is on (hence in it to win it for himself). Why should he be forced to employ a strategy that hurts his chances when he is a wolf? If he wants to play the game so that he starts out the same no matter which side he is on I see no harm in that.

Personally, I find it amusing to watch the drama that it causes. I am hoping that he signs up first one of these games to be honest.

[PurdueBrad]

How does any day 1 vote truly help the village? We're all voting blindly (except the wolves) and therefore most of our votes, mathematically speaking, end up being anti-village. So unless we all sit around, debate, fake reveal, etc. until the first night deadline, most villager votes are little more than random stabs/guesses. If you vote without reason or cause or it looks random, you're a wolf. If you vote with reason or cause, you don't know crap and you are still a wolf. My vote is a joke vote and could move but on D1, it'll only move to avoid a tie or if someone comes out doing the wolfy-dance.

[EagleFan]

This has been fun, but is going nowhere.

Will be back later, time to go play some lacrosse with my daughter.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by PurdueBrad

How does any day 1 vote truly help the village? We're all voting blindly (except the wolves) and therefore most of our votes, mathematically speaking, end up being anti-village. So unless we all sit around, debate, fake reveal, etc. until the first night deadline, most villager votes are little more than random stabs/guesses. If you vote without reason or cause or it looks random, you're a wolf. If you vote with reason or cause, you don't know crap and you are still a wolf. My vote is a joke vote and could move but on D1, it'll only move to avoid a tie or if someone comes out doing the wolfy-dance.

What he said.

Hence, I didn't do the "revenge" vote on him. I knew it was coming, it happened. Time to wait and see what else happens. Unfortunately I knew that meant I would be on the block in a small game but so be it. As long as we learn from whoever else jumps on board than we are good.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by PurdueBrad

How does any day 1 vote truly help the village? We're all voting blindly (except the wolves) and therefore most of our votes, mathematically speaking, end up being anti-village. So unless we all sit around, debate, fake reveal, etc. until the first night deadline, most villager votes are little more than random stabs/guesses. If you vote without reason or cause or it looks random, you're a wolf. If you vote with reason or cause, you don't know crap and you are still a wolf. My vote is a joke vote and could move but on D1, it'll only move to avoid a tie or if someone comes out doing the wolfy-dance.

No, the point that Lathum and I are making is that a pre-determined vote hurts the village later in the game because it is impossible to analyze. All villager votes on Day 1 are crap shoots, but down the line they mean more than if they didn't happen at all, since we can look back and try to see trends. The pre-determined votes make that harder.

It's not a big deal, but given the lack of anything else to base a vote on I will vote for anything that I see as being non-helpful to the village. That usually means I'll vote for someone who is overly quiet or hasn't checked in on day one. But in this case, I'm going for the guy whose voting pattern makes determining his allegiance tougher down the road.

[Darth Vilus]

Originally Posted by Poli

Are we allowed to say who we are?

Vote Danny

I wouldn't say who you are unless you are revealing at the time. In the sequel roles and characters will be irrelevent from each other.

Heading out to work, won't be back til around 11:30 EST. Short day today :-)