Terri Schiavo - The Final Word

[Blackadar]

Other side? I don't see any information above that would suggest anything other than what the Doctors and Michael said in the first place.

It's like the author is saying "it doesn't entirely disprove any abuse because the human body can heal". Big whoop-t-do. And then it goes on to attack the premise of PVS, which is entirely another matter. And then who does the author find to quote? A group called "not dead yet" - it would have been hard to find a more biased source.

[jeff061]

Michael Shiavo also has sex with animals and eats babies. The autopsies don't disprove it!!

[RendeR]

While the blog is interesting, it certainly does nothing more than put this persons view right up next to everyone elses. Sure, they read the report, but with every sentence I get no more sense of open-mindedness from this than I do anyone else's arguements.

THey play on the fact that they read the report, then use it to promote their own opinion of the evidence anyway.

The woman is dead, I hope that people everywhere can just let her husband and her family be. They've all been through enough.

[judicial clerk]

couple of random thoughts:

I admire how resilient BubbaWheels is. He gets attacked more often than any other member on this board, but he just brushes it off and keeps on truckin'. Now, I routinely disagree with BW's political or philosophical ideas, but I appreciate that he is able to withstand a level of vitriol that would have many other members reaching for the eject button;

Terry Schaivo's case shouldn't lead to a national discourse on whether her husband throttled her or not, it should lead to a national discourse on the dangers of eating disorders;

How does RA know that vegetables don't feel pain?! I think he might be an anti-vegite. I myself am a level 7 vegan. I don't eat anything that casts a shadow.

[jeff061]

That's because Bubba is doing God's work and Saving all of us. No really.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Other side? I don't see any information above that would suggest anything other than what the Doctors and Michael said in the first place.

I agree, but it also adds some context to the media refrain that it "proves" Terri wasn't strangled by stating:

Autopsy examination of her neck structures 15 years after her initial collapse did not detect any signs of remote trauma, but, with such a delay, the exam was unlikely to show any residual neck findings.

All that said, it didn't change my opinion on the issue. I was just surprised to see the caveat in the report on the neck injury as no media story I had read mentioned it.

[Flasch186]

Arles punched me in my thigh!!!

WHEN?

15 years ago!!!

Well I dont see a bruise?

PROVE IT DIDN'T HAPPEN!!! PROVE IT!!! ARLES IS A FLASCHEN BEATER!!!!





J/K

[MrBigglesworth]

Shorter Michelle "I'm glad my people were in internment camps during WWII" Malkin: I have no experience in reading medical reports, the report gives no indication that any of the strangulation or recognition that I flogged a couple months ago was present, but it's clearly possible that all the Dr's that examined her were wrong and all that stuff to her brain happened post-mortem.

Spare me Michelle Malkin.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

Arles punched me in my thigh!!!

WHEN?

15 years ago!!!

Well I dont see a bruise?

PROVE IT DIDN'T HAPPEN!!! PROVE IT!!! ARLES IS A FLASCHEN BEATER!!!!

I appreciate the humor but also the irony as well. Your argument is exactly what Blackadar and company have been saying when the autopsy came out:

"See, the coroner said she didn't have any bruises on her throat or visible damage from 15 years ago so that proves Michael is innocent"

I frankly think he's innocent already, but citing the fact that she didn't show any injuries at her death from an incident that occured over a decade ago certainly wouldn't have swayed my opinion had I originally felt the other way.

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by Arles

I appreciate the humor but also the irony as well. Your argument is exactly what Blackadar and company have been saying when the autopsy came out:

"See, the coroner said she didn't have any bruises on her throat or visible damage from 15 years ago so that proves Michael is innocent"

I frankly think he's innocent already, but citing the fact that she didn't show any injuries at her death from an incident that occured over a decade ago certainly wouldn't have swayed my opinion had I originally felt the other way.

I just skimmed through the medical report because I was sure Michelle Malkin was full of S. On page 4 of the summary findings is the quote:

d. Was she strangled?
No trauma was noted on any of the numerous physical exams or radiographs performed on Mrs. Schiavo on the day of, in the days after, or in the months after her initial collapse. Indeed, within an hour of her initial hospital admission, radiographic examination of her cervical spine was negative. Specifically, external signs of strangulation including cutaneous or deep neck injury, facial/conjunctival petechiae, and other blunt trauma were not observed or recorded during her initial hospital admission.

Autopsty examination of her neck structures 15 years after her initial collapse did not detect any signs of remote trauma, but, with such a delay, the exam was unlikely to show any residual neck findings. Even bony anomolies would have likely resolved.

What did Michelle "I'm glad my people were interned during WWII" Malkin quote? Just that second paragraph. She is a GOP stooge on the level of Coulter, never trust anything that comes out of her.

[Raiders Army]

For this thread to be titled "The Final Word" it surprisingly has legs.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by Arles

I appreciate the humor but also the irony as well. Your argument is exactly what Blackadar and company have been saying when the autopsy came out:

"See, the coroner said she didn't have any bruises on her throat or visible damage from 15 years ago so that proves Michael is innocent"

I frankly think he's innocent already, but citing the fact that she didn't show any injuries at her death from an incident that occured over a decade ago certainly wouldn't have swayed my opinion had I originally felt the other way.

theyre both garbage..both ways.

[Bubba Wheels]

Well, couple of facts that conviently get ignored by my critics: 1. Terri Shiavo's brother and sister (on TV last night, one of the talking-head shows) are the ones that have inferred Michael may have some responsibility for Terri's condition because

a) He was the last one to be with her and was with her when she suffered her brain-damage

b) According to them Michael has never answered detailed questions about what occurred

c) Terri was never bulemic which Michael has stated (according to them) could be the direct cause of the injurey

d) Noone disputes the fact that it was only after winning the money in the lawsuit that Michael 'suddenly' remembered the Terri claimed she would not want to live...ect.

e) According to one expert last night on Scarborough Country Terri's condition was never re-examined with modern high-tech equipment since 2002.

f) It is truly amazing how many 'experts' in this post think that they know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Terri did and and could not feel pain on any level.

g) Terri was killed by dehydration when her tube was removed, she was physically healthy and medical experts stated that she could easily live another 10years or more without using 'extrodinary care' to help her.

h) What is at stake in all this is allowing the 'culture of death' to determine amongst themselves even without credible evidence from the patient(s) themselves to determine when a person becomes 'disposable' because they are uncomfortable in seeing that person(s) live in a way they think they themselves would not want to.

[Raiders Army]

Bubba, please....let it go. She's D-E-A-D.

(Hey! Hopefully I got the last word!)

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

Bubba, please....let it go. She's D-E-A-D.

(Hey! Hopefully I got the last word!)

Well, the obvious answer to this one is...if you don't like the subject read elsewheres.

[Raiders Army]

Just won't let someone get the last word, eh? I'll fix you!

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

if you don't like the subject read elsewhere.

[Flasch186]

its not about what anyone wanted outside of Terri. The sooner you undertsand that the better off you'll be.

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

its not about what anyone wanted outside of Terri. The sooner you undertsand that the better off you'll be.

I'm sorry, but this could possibly be the lamest comment I've ever read on this forum insomuch as what Terri really wanted is precisely the thing that cannot reliably be proven.

And then you say 'According to the law her husband can decide for her" and then I say "Yes, but her husband's behavior and recollections of Terri's wishes are inconsistent with what a normal husband/wife relationship would seem to be..." and off we go again. What was your point?

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Well, couple of facts that conviently get ignored by my critics:

I think you play a little loose with the term 'fact'.

[Klinglerware]

Where is GroundCat when we need him?

I may need to cowboy up if I want to last through another Schiavo thread...

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

I'm sorry, but this could possibly be the lamest comment I've ever read on this forum insomuch as what Terri really wanted is precisely the thing that cannot reliably be proven.

Didn't a court of law come to the conclusion that Terri did not want to live in the state she was in? What makes you more qualified than a court to come to that determination?

[Fonzie]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Well, couple of facts that conviently get ignored by my critics: 1. Terri Shiavo's brother and sister (on TV last night, one of the talking-head shows) are the ones that have inferred Michael may have some responsibility for Terri's condition because ...

It's implied, not inferred.

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

I think you play a little loose with the term 'fact'.

What part was not a 'fact"? Unless you can disprove any of it, Terri's brother and sister are telling the truth.

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

What part was not a 'fact"? Unless you can disprove any of it, Terri's brother and sister are being called liars?

Just saying you can't disprove it doesn't make it a fact. Can they back up their claims? If they can, then I would call them facts.

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by Fonzie

It's implied, not inferred.

It was S t a t e d. How's about that one?

[JPhillips]

Bubba its things like this:

b) According to them Michael has never answered detailed questions about what occurred

c) Terri was never bulemic which Michael has stated (according to them) could be the direct cause of the injurey

e) According to one expert last night on Scarborough Country Terri's condition was never re-examined with modern high-tech equipment since 2000.

she was physically healthy and medical experts stated that she could easily live another 10years or more without using 'extrodinary care' to help her.

But I hate freemdom and holiness, so maybe I'm wrong.

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

Just saying you can't disprove it doesn't make it a fact. Can they back up their claims? If they can, then I would call them facts.

Well, one fact is evident: I am not the source for questioning Michael's motives in wanting Terri dead, as opposed to what Blackadar has posted earlier.

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Bubba its things like this:










But I hate freemdom and holiness, so maybe I'm wrong.

Yeah, the 'conclusive facts' being used to try and make this all go away are being questioned themselves. What's your point? We can question the government's findings on JFK, 9-11, Iraq, ect..., but when it comes to Terri Shiavo they cannot possibly be wrong? Good logic.

[Flasch186]

the court decided it, im not a judge, so Im going to deferr to him/her that he followed the laws and made a decision that he felt was correct. So there it is, The judge decided it, Michael acted within his rigths, never has any evidence been shownt hat he hurt her in any way or caused this and he had proven that what has happened is Terri's wishes.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Yeah, the 'conclusive facts' being used to try and make this all go away are being questioned themselves. What's your point? We can question the government's findings on JFK, 9-11, Iraq, ect..., but when it comes to Terri Shiavo they cannot possibly be wrong? Good logic.

you know, you could possibly be wrong too.

[JPhillips]

When you use "according to one person" that by definition makes it less than fact.

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

When you use "according to one person" that by definition makes it less than fact.

No, the 'fact' is that these are still very legitimate questions being raised by a variety of people in various places beginning with Terri Shiavo's own family. In terms of the 'facts' of her medical condition, there are plenty of experts on both sides.

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Unless you can disprove any of it, Terri's brother and sister are telling the truth.

I'm not going to insult logic by bothering to refute that.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

No, the 'fact' is that these are still very legitimate questions being raised by a variety of people in various places beginning with Terri Shiavo's own family. In terms of the 'facts' of her medical condition, there are plenty of experts on both sides.

Ill take the expert who doesn't care about sides, we have that now. RIP

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

you know, you could possibly be wrong too.

You do raise one good point to all this: Seems those siding with Terri Shiavo's family are raising all the questions. Those siding with Michael already seem to have all the answers. Goes to the 'open mind" thing.

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

In terms of the 'facts' of her medical condition, there are plenty of experts on both sides.

Just like there are plenty of experts on both sides of the evolution/ID debate: nearly every credible scientist in the world on one side, and James Dobson and others that haven't taken biology since high school on the other. With Terri we have every court that has ever heard her case, the autopsy report, her husband, and most if not all of the doctors that had physically examined her, vs. Terri's family. It's a legitimate argument, I just have no idea which side is more credible.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Well, one fact is evident: I am not the source for questioning Michael's motives in wanting Terri dead, as opposed to what Blackadar has posted earlier.

No, but you are the friggin' moron who posts these unfounded rumors and speculations and then you treat them as facts in saying that the husband was abusive with blatent disregard to the overwhelming majority of evidence to the contrary. In other words, you supported and encouraged the character assassination and lies by posting them and defending those posts.

As for this bullshit:

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

a) He was the last one to be with her and was with her when she suffered her brain-damage

So what? Jackie was the last person with JFK. Did she kill him?

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

b) According to them Michael has never answered detailed questions about what occurred

According to them...next question.

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

c) Terri was never bulemic which Michael has stated (according to them) could be the direct cause of the injurey

According to them...next question.

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

d) Noone disputes the fact that it was only after winning the money in the lawsuit that Michael 'suddenly' remembered the Terri claimed she would not want to live...ect.

Wrong. Please get your facts straight. He said it before the trial. In addition, he waited 4-5 years after the verdict before petitioning the court for removal of the tube. That could hardly be called suddenly. Thank you for playing, please come again.

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

e) According to one expert last night on Scarborough Country Terri's condition was never re-examined with modern high-tech equipment since 2002.

According to one person...next question.

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

f) It is truly amazing how many 'experts' in this post think that they know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Terri did and and could not feel pain on any level.

Just using the best medical science available, which stated that the part of the brain that feels "pain" is no longer there. At least we use science. Y

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

g) Terri was killed by dehydration when her tube was removed, she was physically healthy and medical experts stated that she could easily live another 10years or more without using 'extrodinary care' to help her.

That's not material to the case.

Thank you for playing, please come again!

[duckman]

If God loves me, He would inspire Ben to ban this buffoon.

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

Just like there are plenty of experts on both sides of the evolution/ID debate: nearly every credible scientist in the world on one side, and James Dobson and others that haven't taken biology since high school on the other. With Terri we have every court that has ever heard her case, the autopsy report, her husband, and most if not all of the doctors that had physically examined her, vs. Terri's family. It's a legitimate argument, I just have no idea which side is more credible.

Well, not to rehash the whole evolution thread from earlier days, but if one thing was brought out in that discussion it is that the very definition of evolution had been changed somewhere between Darwin and today. And it is still called a 'theory', or did you hear different?

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by duckman

If God loves me, He would inspire Ben to ban this buffoon.

Censorship cures everything in your world doesn't it?

[Bubba Wheels]

Blackadar, you lie on one point you totally shoot your credibility altogether. I never ever ever stated as fact that Michael was abusive physically or otherwise. Just stated that, because of Terri's condition (didn't happen by itself, did it?) and Michael was with her when if occurred that in itself raised questions. JFK and Jackie? Only a few million witnesses to that one.

[duckman]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Censorship cures everything in your world doesn't it?

No, punching people do.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Blackadar, you lie on one point you totally shoot your credibility altogether. I never ever ever stated as fact that Michael was abusive physically or otherwise. Just stated that, because of Terri's condition (didn't happen by itself, did it?) and Michael was with her when if occurred that in itself raised questions. JFK and Jackie? Only a few million witnesses to that one.

If I prove otherwise, will you leave this board and never come back? Swear to Jesus?

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by duckman

No, punching people do.

Wha...is that a threat? As I sit here and laugh, look up kccheif, he claims he found the ignore switch and maybe you can talk him into teaching you now to use it. Before you start book burning or something.

[JPhillips]

Ah yes, medical opinion does vary doesn't it.

Frist on Senate Floor, 3/17/05:

I have looked at the video footage. Based on the footage provided to me, which was part of the facts of the case, she does respond.

More from Frist, 3/17/05:

She certainly seems to respond to visual stimuli…

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

If I prove otherwise, will you leave this board and never come back? Swear to Jesus?

Well, it will prove that your not a liar.

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Well, not to rehash the whole evolution thread from earlier days, but if one thing was brought out in that discussion it is that the very definition of evolution had been changed somewhere between Darwin and today. And it is still called a 'theory', or did you hear different?

Are you seriously insinuating that science learns new stuff all the time? That they adjust their theories based on new knowledge? That's a low blow, Bubba. Next thing you will be telling me is that Newton's laws of physics have been shown to be inaccurate!

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Ah yes, medical opinion does vary doesn't it.

Yes, this is another good one. Someone claimed here that Terri's eyes were too damaged to see anything, yet whenever someone in the room with her moved their hand her eyes seemed to follow the movements. ESP?

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

You do raise one good point to all this: Seems those siding with Terri Shiavo's family are raising all the questions. Those siding with Michael already seem to have all the answers. Goes to the 'open mind" thing.

I thought that Michael and Terri were part of the same family. According to the latest Republican policy on what constitutes a marriage: one man and one woman with the decision making authority. Nothing about extended family in there... So much for the importance of the nuclear family.

Maybe Terri Schiavo's last wish was for her "defenders" to at least spell her name right.

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

Are you seriously insinuating that science learns new stuff all the time? That they adjust their theories based on new knowledge? That's a low blow, Bubba. Next thing you will be telling me is that Newton's laws of physics have been shown to be inaccurate!

So, science evolves, but we knew enough about Terri Shiavo's medical condition that we were sure she did not want to live anymore. Interesting.