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Old 07-13-2010, 12:12 PM   #51
molson
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Originally Posted by RendeR View Post

If the Yankees ceased to exist would baseball die? No. it would move on just fine without them.

True, but the Yankees aren't close to death. MLB would similarily move on fine if the 4 least successful franchises were contracted. (And at least two would have actually been contracted in 2002 if not for stadium lease issues)


Last edited by molson : 07-13-2010 at 12:13 PM.
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Old 07-13-2010, 12:14 PM   #52
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[quote=RendeR;2319244]
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Originally Posted by Lathum View Post



The sheer arrogance than without a competitive Yankee or Lakers team the league would suffer is utterly idiotic. Does it drive up ratings in NY and LA? sure. Does it do jack shit for anyone else? No, not really. Certainly not as much as having a competitive team in whatever local city you choose would do.

The saddest part is that the rest of the country has put up with this stupidity for so long that NY and LA seem to actually BELIEVE its the way things ought to be.

Did the Rams moving to St Louis hurt the NFL's ratings? not really. The single most balanced league in the nation is the NFL. Where is it ranked in relation to the other sports? Oh yeah, its number 1.

If the Yankees ceased to exist would baseball die? No. it would move on just fine without them.

This statement is so wrong. Without looking I would be willing to guarantee when the Yankees are on the road the home teams attendance goes up. When the Yankees are on TV the ratings go up. When the Yankees are in the World Series more people are interested.

All of that is good for baseball. It generates more revenue for the league, which in turn is better for all the other teams.Would baseball die without the Yankees, of course not, but there would be a lot less money to go around.
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Old 07-13-2010, 12:17 PM   #53
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Does it do jack shit for anyone else? No, not really.

Wrong, just flat wrong.

Not even NY & Bos account for the ratings for Yankees-Red Sox games being anywhere from 50% to 100% higher than the average game.

Nor does the size of NY account for the Yankees being the most popular and the most hated team in baseball.
Long-running drama: Yankees vs. Red Sox remains big draw - USATODAY.com

If they're on, people will watch around the entire country in greater numbers than anyone else. Not just NY, everywhere. It's great in SD if the Padres do well but hardly anyone elsewhere gives a rip, same is true with virtually every team outside of Boston really.

They're truly an entity unlike any other in all of U.S. pro sports, as other contenders/pretenders to the claim America's Team such as the Cowboys and the Braves have faded for various reasons.
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Old 07-13-2010, 12:25 PM   #54
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Others have said it already, but George left a huge mark on the sport and made the Yankees what they are today. Other teams have had similar opportunities and have failed to take advantage of them. His growth of the brand over the years is remarkable. I think he was the biggest name in sports among any owner and I would have loved for him to own my team. RIP George.
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Old 07-13-2010, 12:30 PM   #55
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RIP Mr. Steinbrenner. We may not see your like again.
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Old 07-13-2010, 01:16 PM   #56
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So you're really arguing that if the Yankees and Lakers didn't exist, revenues for all other teams in their respective leagues would be the same or better?


Not in this instance. I'm simply pointing out the inherint arrogance created by the flawed league designs of the MLB and NBA.

Look at the NFL, which for all intents and purposes is as near an idyllic league system as we have. Every team has the same amount of funds to work with for hiring talent due to the cap. That inherintly creates a level BASE for every team to start from. Now ownership and mangement styles are still going to create teams like the Browns who fail regularly or the Cowboys or Colts that succeed regularly.

Baseball and basketball just don't do this, they allow the richest teams to get richer and dominate on a far longer time frame than teams like..oh...the Sonics...Oh wait....


and to bring this back in line with the original thread idea: Steinbrener and the entire ownership group in MLB perpetuate this because it lines their pockets, regardless of whether it puts a quality product on the field.
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Old 07-13-2010, 01:17 PM   #57
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Of course he's pure evil, I mean without his excessive spending, Jeffrey Loria wouldn't get to build his 5 mansions from unspent revenue sharing money...think of the children!
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Old 07-13-2010, 01:22 PM   #58
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Wrong, just flat wrong.

Not even NY & Bos account for the ratings for Yankees-Red Sox games being anywhere from 50% to 100% higher than the average game.

Nor does the size of NY account for the Yankees being the most popular and the most hated team in baseball.
Long-running drama: Yankees vs. Red Sox remains big draw - USATODAY.com

If they're on, people will watch around the entire country in greater numbers than anyone else. Not just NY, everywhere. It's great in SD if the Padres do well but hardly anyone elsewhere gives a rip, same is true with virtually every team outside of Boston really.

They're truly an entity unlike any other in all of U.S. pro sports, as other contenders/pretenders to the claim America's Team such as the Cowboys and the Braves have faded for various reasons.



The point being however that if the Padres do well THEIR ratings are FAR higher in San Diego than the yankees or red sox could ever reach.

I'm not trying to deny that there are many fans of the yankees and Red Sox everywhere, People move around in this country. Then you have the ownership models of Steinbrenner and company buying up the best players so that their teams are the ones winning consistantly and the fan base grows. HUman beings are psychophantic idjits for the most part. Every kid wants to root for a winner and if when their young and their local team sucks ass they might well choose a team thats winning. Or if they grow up where there isn't a real "local" team again they'll latch on to whomever is popular at the time.

I'm not trying to argue the reality we live in, I'm trying to explain that just because its what we have it doesn't mean its what is BEST for the sport as a whole.
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Old 07-13-2010, 01:23 PM   #59
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[quote=Lathum;2319260]
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Originally Posted by RendeR View Post

This statement is so wrong. Without looking I would be willing to guarantee when the Yankees are on the road the home teams attendance goes up. When the Yankees are on TV the ratings go up. When the Yankees are in the World Series more people are interested.

All of that is good for baseball. It generates more revenue for the league, which in turn is better for all the other teams.Would baseball die without the Yankees, of course not, but there would be a lot less money to go around.



Again, everyone is ignoring the real point here.

Why are we happy that ratings only go up if the Yankees are playing? Shouldn't we want that effect to happen for every team? or at the least for about half of them?

1 team generating interest..good?

30 teams generating interest....Far better.
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Old 07-13-2010, 01:25 PM   #60
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True, but the Yankees aren't close to death. MLB would similarily move on fine if the 4 least successful franchises were contracted. (And at least two would have actually been contracted in 2002 if not for stadium lease issues)



I'm not averse to that either. I think they probably should do this. Unfortunately no one will be able to agree on WHICH teams should get folded into the rest.

I'd post my opinion but this thread is supposed to be about George and I've jacked it enough already
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Old 07-13-2010, 01:27 PM   #61
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Damn render learn how to quote .
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Old 07-13-2010, 01:33 PM   #62
RendeR
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Yeah I was typing too fast. My bad.
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Old 07-13-2010, 01:34 PM   #63
miked
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Originally Posted by RendeR View Post

Again, everyone is ignoring the real point here.

Why are we happy that ratings only go up if the Yankees are playing? Shouldn't we want that effect to happen for every team? or at the least for about half of them?

1 team generating interest..good?

30 teams generating interest....Far better.

Problem is, there are a handful of teams that merely suck the teats of the large teams paying all the players. They are content to field mediocre teams with low payrolls and pocket the money they receive, then cry "small market" when they lose. It's not the Steinbrenners that are bad for the league, it's the Lorias and the like that have no interest in making the sport any better.
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Last edited by miked : 07-13-2010 at 01:34 PM.
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Old 07-13-2010, 01:40 PM   #64
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I'm a Red Sox fan, but I'm sad about Steinbrenner's passing. He was such a magnificent villain. Part of hating him was knowing that at the end of the day, he did what he did because he wanted to win as badly as I wanted to see the Sox win.

Maybe the best (personal) sports villain of my lifetime.
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Old 07-13-2010, 01:40 PM   #65
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Look at the NFL, which for all intents and purposes is as near an idyllic league system as we have.

Personally, once I hear the words "cut due to the salary cap", my interest is pretty much gone.

I thought about that today, the sports I follow most closely are college (no cap on indirect spending) and MLB, followed by NASCAR I guess. No caps in any of them.

Any interest I have in the NFL beyond casual water-cooler stuff is limited to however long Peyton is still in the league, the NBA is the least interesting league of them all & it's dominated by salary cap. The NHL is the only possible exception & when you're stuck with the Waddell-era Thrashers for a home team it's tough to keep the interest level up, so I'll call that one an "incomplete" for now.

The caps encourage mediocrity, and I have no real interest in that.
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Old 07-13-2010, 01:40 PM   #66
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Problem is, there are a handful of teams that merely suck the teats of the large teams paying all the players. They are content to field mediocre teams with low payrolls and pocket the money they receive, then cry "small market" when they lose. It's not the Steinbrenners that are bad for the league, it's the Lorias and the like that have no interest in making the sport any better.

Pretty much.

It's one of the reasons it's such a joy being a White Sox fan. We have a GM and owner who will aggressively pursue winning championships within the team's means. And we have a World Series championship, an AL Central crown, and a current Central division lead to show for it.
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Old 07-13-2010, 01:41 PM   #67
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I wasn't a fan but I won't take a dump on the guy, even though that was my first inclination. RIP George. You will be missed but not by me.
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Old 07-13-2010, 01:42 PM   #68
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I'm not averse to that either. I think they probably should do this. Unfortunately no one will be able to agree on WHICH teams should get folded into the rest.

That's very true... some fanbases, even they are very small, would be outraged over talk to folding. In addition, some franchises are in areas they are in due to MLB wanting to become seen as a truly national brand rather than say just the coasts (it may be a reason why they'd like to really see KC succeed).

Furthermore, some of these franchises may have some history that MLB would rather not destroy (it makes folding the Marlins that much harder since they've won 2 World Series - though their new downtown stadium should increase attendance).
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Old 07-13-2010, 01:46 PM   #69
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See now I'm of the opinion that the Steinbrenners of the league who fight tooth and nail against a balanced system are the very people who CREATE the Lorias.

They create a system that guarantees them higher returns and by creating such a void in quality opens the door for the Loria-type owners to say "oh look, free money"

And Jon: You are in the VAST minority in your opinion there. The increase in the NFL's popularity over the last 40 years shows that you get more fans if more teams do well and succeed. making more money for everyone, instead of just a chosen few.
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Old 07-13-2010, 01:56 PM   #70
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You just know George is yucking it up with Mantle, The Babe, & Gehrig right now. Trying to organize a Yankee dream team to beat the BoSox on a magical field in Iowa.
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Old 07-13-2010, 02:04 PM   #71
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And Jon: You are in the VAST minority in your opinion there. The increase in the NFL's popularity over the last 40 years shows that you get more fans if more teams do well and succeed. making more money for everyone, instead of just a chosen few.

Stating this unequivocally is ridiculous. There are a number of reasons for the NFL's popularity. Stating that the NFL's growth over the last 40 years is solely, or even mainly, due to something that's been around the last 16 is a difficult position to defend.
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Old 07-13-2010, 02:14 PM   #72
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Hated the guy when I was younger. Now I've grown to see that all sports really need at least one owner like him.

RIP. The man made baseball better.
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Old 07-13-2010, 02:44 PM   #73
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And Jon: You are in the VAST minority in your opinion there. The increase in the NFL's popularity over the last 40 years shows that you get more fans if more teams do well and succeed. making more money for everyone, instead of just a chosen few.

Interesting stance considering about 5 teams have won half the championships in the last 40 years.
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Old 07-13-2010, 05:22 PM   #74
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A nice balance to some of the puffery.

Let us remember George Steinbrenner, not whitewash him | HardballTalk
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Old 07-13-2010, 07:59 PM   #75
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Interesting stance considering about 5 teams have won half the championships in the last 40 years.



44 Super Bowls

18 Different Winners
4 out of 32 teams have NEVER been to the Super Bowl


I'd say my stance is pretty solid actually.
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:01 PM   #76
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Stating this unequivocally is ridiculous. There are a number of reasons for the NFL's popularity. Stating that the NFL's growth over the last 40 years is solely, or even mainly, due to something that's been around the last 16 is a difficult position to defend.


Free Agency has only been around that long. Revenue sharing and soft capping salaries dates back to the 60's when the AFL was challenging the NFL before the merger. They were very different systems back then but they existed in some form.
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:06 PM   #77
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Actually a very very nice article. Its quite appropriate.
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:21 PM   #78
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44 Super Bowls

18 Different Winners
4 out of 32 teams have NEVER been to the Super Bowl


I'd say my stance is pretty solid actually.


How is it a solid stance on equality when roughly half the teams have won a title?
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:28 PM   #79
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Interesting stance considering about 5 teams have won half the championships in the last 40 years.

8 different teams have won WS titles in the last 9 years so keep trying...
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:31 PM   #80
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8 different teams have won WS titles in the last 9 years so keep trying...

that just proves the point that spending in baseball hasn't really hurt the sport so I'm not sure what your point is other than to prove me right.
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:31 PM   #81
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44 Super Bowls

18 Different Winners
4 out of 32 teams have NEVER been to the Super Bowl


I'd say my stance is pretty solid actually.

Can't forget about the repeat losers.

Minnesota - 4
Denver- 4
Buffalo - 4
New England - 3
Dallas - 3
Miami - 3
Washington - 2
Cincinnati - 2
Indianapolis/Baltimore Colts - 2
Philadelphia - 2
Oakland - 2
Los Angeles/St. Louis Rams - 2
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:34 PM   #82
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44 Super Bowls

18 Different Winners
4 out of 32 teams have NEVER been to the Super Bowl


I'd say my stance is pretty solid actually.

Out of the last 44 World Series baseball has 19 different winners and 4 teams out of 30 haven't been there.
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Old 07-13-2010, 09:44 PM   #83
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I have to laugh at some of the people using the Royals as an example of a team feeding off the big franchises. Anyone who uses that as an example obviously should tell the owner that the record payrolls and record payroll percentage increases along with paying for most of the huge renovation of his stadium was just another form of putting away money without trying to win.

There's several teams that are putting away money. The Royals aren't in that category.
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Old 07-14-2010, 10:38 AM   #84
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George picked the right year to die:

Tax break saves Steinbrenner heirs millions- Financial retirement plan - MSN Money
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