1973 FOOL Classic Thread

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Cringer

Ok, I am not sure this is some major drama again, so I ask you to just please calm down. I am just looking for something more along the lines of how it is done by some teams, and not others. I am not asking for audits of team transactions or anything like that.......unless, that is how it is figured out and explained to those of us who have never been able to do such a thing.

Consider it calmed. This was the last straw. I don't want to deal with this stuff anymore, and I am sure the league is sick of me bellyaching. So no need to worry about my concerns.

I just resigned. I am fine with that. I wish the league and its members well, and I hope FOOL continues to be an amazing experience for everyone involved.

[muns]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Okay, two things.

1. Why are we again unable to see past transactions? I had hoped this would be a dead issue. I want to always be able to see every team's transactions for the last two years. I thought that was what was agreed upon.

2. Why is my third round pick from just this past offseason on my free agent to be list?

When we roll over the game clears it every time. That has been going on every year for the past I dont know how many years, and it gets brought up every offseason at the exact same time.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by muns

When we roll over the game clears it every time. That has been going on every year for the past I dont know how many years, and it gets brought up every offseason at the exact same time.

DC said transactions are set to be saved for two years or ten years or whatever. There should never be a time where you can't see the recent transactions of any team in the league. That is Running A League 101.

That might be an issue with OOTP and not this league specficially, but if so, then this should have been dealt with when we brought it up the last time. The fact that it is not is another reason to back me leaving the league.

[Chief Rum]

FWIW, I have completed one final export for the Rancheros, tendering minor league contracts to the players who asked for the who aren't utter wastes. I also picked up the option on Richardson. I accidentally picked up the option on Marquez, but then released him to remedy that. As it is only a $1.2 M expense on the player expenses, I don't think it's critical, and the new owner, should one be found, will have that much more room to maneuver if he wants to. I also offered extensions to Lloyd Carnell, Raul Ortiz, Walt Barker, Jason Lindsay and Marc Ladd. I mention them specifically because they asked for money. Barker and Lindsay are actually closers, for future reference--I only moved them to MR this past offseason so the game AI would assign them correctly when I asked it for pitching lineups.

I chose to not tender contracts to John Bruce, who was seeking $4 M for 4 years or so when he's 31; Tadakuni Minami, who was looking for about $1.5 per year for three years when he is 28 and has been pretty bad the past two years; and Rich Haas, who doesn't have enough secondary ability (power, gap) to justify a $1M+ contract per season for two years when he is 29.

I have exported this export to the server. It is up to DC if he feels he wants to allow it, as I had already submitted my resignation.

Good luck, everyone, and keep having fun.

[Chief Rum]

Oh, P.S., all of the above extension offers that weren't MLCs were for less than $1 M per year (most were close to the league min actually), and at most two years. So there shouldn't be any concern that they will burden Colorado, and all of the players are players with worth and ability. I have too much respect for what I have done to just take a crap on it, and want any future owner to succeed.

BTW, CL Stanley Robison also was on the FA to be list (I offered him). Like Arias, he, too, was just drafted in March, 1973. No way this guy should be a FA already. I highly recommend the rest of you review your lists to be sure you don't have any players of your own that should not already be free agents.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Cringer

That is my question right there Chief. I have no problem with it if a guy is under the cap at the start of season and during, so that is not my problem. My problem is there have been teams that have been able to do this in the past while I can't. I clearly remember other teams pulling it off, it is far from just Quad City.

I just want in on the action.

I know in my case and most of the other cases I have seen a team ends up over cap usually thanks to arbitration.

Available money to be spent for future years is based on an estimated arbitration value for arbitration eligible players the previous year. (You can go into your salary report to see what the game is estimating for those players). When you end up with a guy who the AI estimates will receive 500k in salary next year, you can spend future money up to the salary cap based on that 500k value.

Then when it is actually time for arbitration, if that player by far outperformed expectations and ends up with an arbitration far an away higher than what was previously estimated in earlier years, he could end up being paid say 2.5 million instead. Because of that, you could end up $2mil over the cap and having to cut some salary in order to get under the cap.

The other way that teams have ended up over the cap is during roster expansion, when you bring up players with a minor league contract ($0 against your salary cap), to the majors it auto-assumes league minimum salary for them ($190k). So if you bring up say 20 players with a minor league contract to the majors for spring training, you'll add automatically $3.8 million to your salary and possibly end up over cap. You can get around that before the season starts obviously by lowering your payroll by sending these players with minor league contracts back to the minors which should take them off of your salary cap total. (This only works with players that have a minor league contract. Any player with a major league contract sent to the minors still incur a charge against the salary cap).

As far as I am aware, these are the only two ways teams end up over the salary cap and the explanation for it in the past. Teams are not able to spend over the cap for current years or future years, and I haven't seen any of the various teams over the cap prior to now ever do so. (Even the Charleston case from the first year of the cap was a case of existing players on the roster ending up bringing the team over the cap).

Since neither of these scenerios explain how Quad City is over the cap, I'm not actually sure how that happened. From what I see it technically shouldn't be possible, but I obviously understand that perhaps I am missing something here. I know for a fact that I wasn't able to spend over the $65mil limit for either this year or next year's salary (as I tried and lost out on the Free agents I bid on as I didn't have as much cap space as Hartford).

So anyways, my attempt here was to explain how other teams have ended up over the cap in previous years (such as Columbus and Compton this last off season). I don't have any explanation for what happened with Quad City.

[graygoose12]

And this is exactly why I wanted to not allow free agent offers during this sim as well. Interesting.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by graygoose12

And this is exactly why I wanted to not allow free agent offers during this sim as well. Interesting.

Well I'm reserving my right to comment one way or another about what exactly happened until I understand what did happen. I am about to head out on a family bike ride, but so far I haven't figured out in the file what exactly did happen though.

Without knowing that, it is hard for me to comment one way or another, but the rules for FA signing for this past sim are the exact same as the rules for this upcoming sim in regards to cap spending, free agent contract year , etc. So whether this occured last sim or this upcoming sim, I am not sure the issue at hand would make a difference as it shouldn't have been possible in either sim. The game doesn't let you spend beyond cap, prior to the FOOL Classic, or after the FOOL Classic. Since Arbitration values haven't changed between the two sims, that isn't the issue either.

I understand the frustration that those whom wanted to hold off on FA signings are feeling right now, but to be fair, that isn't the problem here, it doesn't really have anything to do with this issue. I'm sure there is an explanation for what happened, I'll check back in later to see if anyone has figured it out.

[graygoose12]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Well I'm reserving my right to comment one way or another about what exactly happened until I understand what did happen. I am about to head out on a family bike ride, but so far I haven't figured out in the file what exactly did happen though.

Without knowing that, it is hard for me to comment one way or another, but the rules for FA signing for this past sim are the exact same as the rules for this upcoming sim in regards to cap spending, free agent contract year , etc. So whether this occured last sim or this upcoming sim, I am not sure the issue at hand would make a difference as it shouldn't have been possible in either sim. The game doesn't let you spend beyond cap, prior to the FOOL Classic, or after the FOOL Classic. Since Arbitration values haven't changed between the two sims, that isn't the issue either.

I understand the frustration that those whom wanted to hold off on FA signings are feeling right now, but to be fair, that isn't the problem here, it doesn't really have anything to do with this issue. I'm sure there is an explanation for what happened, I'll check back in later to see if anyone has figured it out.

I am not saying the signings themselves are necessarily the cause for concern. Although again I must point out that I had no chance to sign these players. Neither did Chief.

[kaosfere]

First of all, congrats to Chief Rum on his win, and to greygoose on a great season, however it ended.

That being said...

I'm not sure just how to phrase this without being inflammatory, but it seems like some of you guys really need to learn to step away from the keyboard for a while before posting. I can understand the source of frustration, Rum, but it took you one hour and 14 minutes to go from winning the title to quitting the league.

And over... what? Confusion over how the salary cap works? Alan_T seems to have explained that. Uncertainty why QC was able to exceed the cap? Since there doesn't seem to be any sign of wrong-doing, as you yourself seem to admit, it seems like the prudent course of action is to allow people to figure out why it happened before you explode. Butthurt over not being able to sign some early free agents? We've already talked about that, and agreed (I think?) to do something about it, but not during this season, because it would be unfair to change the rules in mid stream.

I fail to see, honestly, what the cause of this blow-up was. Fortunately, it seems to be highly localized so far. Perhaps Chief's own self-excisement has contributed to that. I feed bad for DC, for being at the nexus of this latest bit of drama at the same time as he's trying to get things straight for everyone, and for greygoose, for having his good showing eclipsed by a loss in the Classic and then this... nonsense.

Rum, I hardly know you, but from what I've read and seen here in my limited time, you seem like a decent guy. Judging by how worked up you are over this issue, maybe a step back might be good for you. I'm sad to see someone go over what looks like a misunderstanding, but, well, this is a game, and it's just not worth it, man.

Hopefully everyone else here can take a deep breath and let this situation work out peacefully. "Drama" is not some outside force that comes around to spoil our fun. You are the drama you create.

I guess that's my point. I'm new, I haven't had a chance to get worked up in the squabbles, from an outside perspective it all seems pretty trivial. Just chill a bit.

Now then... over to the 1974 thread and the future.

[muns]

Well im back from a nice stress free weekend with the GF and its nice to see things havent changed much around here. I guess it can be my turn to jump right back into things eh???

While I can understand why people didnt want the FA signing to continue and go through, it wasnt fair to everyone to do that for this season. Everyone has to be able to see that right?

We have had the same system for the past what like 8 seasons, and the only reason this came up was because there were VL guys that had 5 stars out there that people forgot about and wanted the chance to sign them.

Its not DC's fault nor the rest of the leagues fault that people simply forgot about them and didnt save cap room to try and sign them. It is easy to tell when these guys are coming out, everyone can do it........

Its also not DC's fault that nobody released players besides baltimore that I know of or can see in the FA file. Everyone also had the chance to do that as well.

DC did release some guys and on top of that had 14 mil to spend before he even released guys.

I know because I went through team by team and counted who had what money and how much could they could spend so that I knew what I had to offer to get the guys that i wanted.....

It broke down like this:
7 teams had 5-6 mil to spend
3-teams had 6-7 mil to spend
1-team had 12 mil
1-team had 13 mil
1-team had 15 mil

the rest of the teams didnt much matter becuse they had (like myself) 20 some mil to go out and use.


So, besides the 2 teams in the Fool classic who chose to be where they were cap wise before the season even started with the same rules we have been using for the past 8 or so seasons, who couldnt shave cap room to try to sign these guys? the answer is nobody.....

The 2 fool classic teams had the unfortunate choice to release guys or to not release guys and go for the win in the fool classic. Is that fair?? No its not, but its the same rules the other classic guys had to do for the past 8 seasons before you....

Again the issue is that there were 5 star guys out there this time and not the normal 3 star guys. It seems that you were just upset that you couldnt sign them...

From where Im sitting you guys made correct choices with your teams and your money and you made your goal and got to where you wanted to be.. The fool classic... For that I applaud loudly and congratulate you. You guys sure have done a hell of a lot better than most of us here.

But If im in your spot im happy to have been in the classic cause you could be like me.... Playing in the league since the beginning of the restart, and dont have a better than second place finish under your belt.

Im kinda frustrated that your gonna crash my Free agent party that ive been waiting and planning on forever, try to change the rules that we have been playing by forever, tell me why its not fair that you cant bid on the FA guys, win the fool classic and then up and quit...... You are in the top 2 of the most successful GM's in FOOL Hisory. It sucks for you to go out because you didnt have a chance to sign a few guys.

Id like to hear why someone thinks that would be fair to me or anyone on the bottom of the heap or even in the middle? I planned on having cap space to use on the VL guys......

We cant go and change rules in the middle of the game weather it benefits me, you, your friend whoever...... it is not fair to everyone.... Change is and should be for the upcoming seasons. So if you want to argue a point or bring about change, please lets use that logic for the future.


That being said, I was not here for most of the weekend and still dont have a full grasp of what is going on for the next season. I can see how that file would not be fair for the Fool classic teams.... Are we looking to change that for next season?

And lastly, I want to point out that we have just brought on a new stable of owners with us. This league is fun, and I appologize for what is going on. You came at a fantastic time as last season by far was the most fun, as evident by the 8 pages and 1,000 views, however we are still young in terms of the league, and are still trying to work the kinks out as im sure you can tell. Please dont hold back and voice your opinion because we wont get to where you want to get league wise wihout hearing your thoughts......

[graygoose12]

I have already had a PM conversation with muns this morning, so I am pretty sure our goals on this topic are the same, to make this a better league for all. That being said I am going to quote you here just to stay on topic and hopefully more people comment, since it's for the better of the league in my opinion. Also all I can do is reply with my thoughts on the situation, not necessarily the league as a whole.

Originally Posted by muns

While I can understand why people didnt want the FA signing to continue and go through, it wasnt fair to everyone to do that for this season. Everyone has to be able to see that right?

When I proposed the rule to not allow free agent signings until after the FOOL Classic I never once mentioned that it should be done immediately. The reason I mentioned it this offseason and never before was not because there were a number of top FAs available, but because I had never been in the Classic and never really realized that it is unfair to the owners who are in the Classic. I am ok with the signings going through,

Originally Posted by muns

We have had the same system for the past what like 8 seasons, and the only reason this came up was because there were VL guys that had 5 stars out there that people forgot about and wanted the chance to sign them.

Again it was not only brought up because of the talent available but because I was the first to ever notice and feel it was something to bring up. If you look at my salary report for the next couple of years there is pretty much no way I was going to make any signings on these guys. I am pretty much locked into this roster for a few years. However, in future years FOOL Classic participants may want to sign some of these guys (if they continue to come out), and should not have to release players to do so. That being said it looks like we are either going to get rid of the VL or move the date back to match our FAs.

Originally Posted by muns

Its not DC's fault nor the rest of the leagues fault that people simply forgot about them and didnt save cap room to try and sign them. It is easy to tell when these guys are coming out, everyone can do it........

Its also not DC's fault that nobody released players besides baltimore that I know of or can see in the FA file. Everyone also had the chance to do that as well.

DC did release some guys and on top of that had 14 mil to spend before he even released guys.

You are correct, it is not DC's fault that he released players and signed some of these guys. However the fact that he happened to sign five of these guys creates some suspicion when he is the Commissioner. Couple that with the fact that somehow he is over the cap adds to the suspicion. I am not saying that DC cheated, and in no way am I trying to say that he did. Chief had asked in the past to be able to see all transactions, and this is a very clear reason why he asked for that. Whether or not DC did that, or if it is a problem with OOTP I do not know.

Originally Posted by muns

So, besides the 2 teams in the Fool classic who chose to be where they were cap wise before the season even started with the same rules we have been using for the past 8 or so seasons, who couldnt shave cap room to try to sign these guys? the answer is nobody.....

The 2 fool classic teams had the unfortunate choice to release guys or to not release guys and go for the win in the fool classic. Is that fair?? No its not, but its the same rules the other classic guys had to do for the past 8 seasons before you....

As you said, no it is not fair. And those are the rules we've been using, so I never proposed that we do it this year. As I stated earlier I simply brought it up because it is not fair.

Originally Posted by muns

Again the issue is that there were 5 star guys out there this time and not the normal 3 star guys. It seems that you were just upset that you couldnt sign them...

From where Im sitting you guys made correct choices with your teams and your money and you made your goal and got to where you wanted to be.. The fool classic... For that I applaud loudly and congratulate you. You guys sure have done a hell of a lot better than most of us here.

But If im in your spot im happy to have been in the classic cause you could be like me.... Playing in the league since the beginning of the restart, and dont have a better than second place finish under your belt.

Again the issue was not the talent level, but the issue in general about it not being fair that this continue to happen in the future.

Originally Posted by muns

We cant go and change rules in the middle of the game weather it benefits me, you, your friend whoever...... it is not fair to everyone.... Change is and should be for the upcoming seasons. So if you want to argue a point or bring about change, please lets use that logic for the future.

Again I never proposed that we change the rules immediately.

Originally Posted by muns

That being said, I was not here for most of the weekend and still dont have a full grasp of what is going on for the next season. I can see how that file would not be fair for the Fool classic teams.... Are we looking to change that for next season?

I don't know, but I would not be opposed to possibly taking some time off as a league to figure out what we are going to do on this topic and others.

Another thing that concerns me about DC's signings is wondering why no other owners seemed to attempt to sign those guys. Did their exports not go through with all the server issues? Do the newer owners not completely understand the rules?

[Cringer]

Well I certainly do agree that allowing FA signing during this stage has nothing to do with this. We have been over that.

I brought this up simply because I wondered about the ability to go over the cap. I have no problem with any signings done by any team last night, except for muns because he has clearly stolen my guy.

muns actually brough up a great point though, cutting guys would have given me more cap space to work with. I will remember that next time. I haven't had guys I would cut to create cap space for a long time, though this year I probably have three or so. Could have helped me out for sure.

[kaosfere]

Originally Posted by graygoose12

Another thing that concerns me about DC's signings is wondering why no other owners seemed to attempt to sign those guys. Did their exports not go through with all the server issues? Do the newer owners not completely understand the rules?

I made an offered Payton 15 million over two years. DC offered more. He went big, I went home.

[muns]

I have already had a PM conversation with muns this morning, so I am pretty sure our goals on this topic are the same, to make this a better league for all. That being said I am going to quote you here just to stay on topic and hopefully more people comment, since it's for the better of the league in my opinion. Also all I can do is reply with my thoughts on the situation, not necessarily the league as a whole.

Well said Goose

[muns]

I offered up contracts to 4 guys

I signed 2 Sp- Minor and 3b-Sanchez

Sp- Roman Vitev- I only offered him 1 year for a million. he signed with DC for 990K over 2 years..... No problems or issues on my end with that.

SP-Mike Primm- Who signed with Texas- He signed for 3.1 mil over 2 years, I offered him like 2 mil for a season. No problms or issues on my end with that.

I couldnt afford to offer all the guys contracts that I wanted to. I had to get Minor and wanted to make sure that I did, and I did that. So that took a lot of money away from me offering other guys.

[Young Drachma]

I don't even know where to start...

[kaosfere]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

I don't even know where to start...

With a deep breath and a counting-to-ten?

[Cringer]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

I don't even know where to start...

Start with what you had for breakfast.

[muns]

Originally Posted by kaosfere

With a deep breath and a counting-to-ten?

I knew i liked you

[Alan T]

I offered contracts to the following people, with the following Email notifications regarding it:

9/22 Clinton Miner - I know you think you're making a decent offer but you are way off on the money.
9/22 Clinton Miner signs with Hartford
9/22 Sean Davis - Thanks for the offer, its fair and unless someone offers me a better deal I'll sign with you.
9/22 Sean Davis - I'd be foolish to sign on with you guys when I have a legitimate offer in hand from Quad City
9/22 Sean Davis signs with Quad City
9/22 Roman Vitaliev - Thanks for the offer, its fair and unless someone offers me a better deal I'll sign with you.
9/22 Roman Vitaliev - While I may be a young man, I'm not going to be able to play baseball into my mid-fifties. I want a contract that is good for me so when I retire I can enjoy my family. Quad City is offering something along those lines.
9/22 Roman Vitaliev signs with Quad City
9/22 Eric Braun - Thanks for the offer, its fair and unless someone offers me a better deal I'll sign with you.
9/22 Eric Braun signs with Valdosta

[Young Drachma]

I haven't had breakfast yet. I went to bed last night expecting FOOL drama.

I went and opened a test league as a Commissioner to see what the problem might with this owner thing preventing you from making signings and apparently, OOTP allows the Commissioner to sign players anyway. I have no idea why this is the case...but apparently it does, because I don't get a message preventing me from signing players.

The fact that I've never done this before until now...either displays amazing restraint or reflects a salary market that's far more competitive marketplace.

Before I go any further, I just want to say that...if I were all in this for me, I never would've given up the St. Louis Terriers. People can fashion themselves as the masters of altruism, but I doubt many Commissioners would've done that ensure their league got off to a great start.

I wouldn't have given Jimmy the Brothers to miss out on a title with, if I really was all in this for winning and trying to trump people.

As for numbers, I never expected when I came up with the FOOL idea on a random afternoon in a dusty daychat someplace that it'd last 13+ seasons and have more than 5 or 6 human owners. It's just too crazy a pace to really expect that it'd work like that.

In any case, what I'm going to do is, release the VL players I signed. I'm not doing it because I have to. I could just give up a draft pick or let the BoD decide what to do in this instance. But I feel like between what happened with exports last night, with the discussion related to VL players and just everything else we've been mulling, I won't feel good about winning the RL next year (that's trash talk, in case you were wondering) under the taint of feeling like I "robbed" people or some business.

To reconcile the issue of the whole game-lets-commish-go-over-cap-thing, I'm going to create a regular user for myself with no commish powers and use that to file my exports. That way, this won't ever happen again to me.

I'm tempted to upload a new file before tonight's export, to allow people to make accounting and other moves, as they need to...but I dunno if that would be helpful or not.

So that's where I am.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

I haven't had breakfast yet. I went to bed last night expecting FOOL drama.

I went and opened a test league as a Commissioner to see what the problem might with this owner thing preventing you from making signings and apparently, OOTP allows the Commissioner to sign players anyway. I have no idea why this is the case...but apparently it does, because I don't get a message preventing me from signing players.

The fact that I've never done this before until now...either displays amazing restraint or reflects a salary market that's far more competitive marketplace.

Before I go any further, I just want to say that...if I were all in this for me, I never would've given up the St. Louis Terriers. People can fashion themselves as the masters of altruism, but I doubt many Commissioners would've done that ensure their league got off to a great start.

I wouldn't have given Jimmy the Brothers to miss out on a title with, if I really was all in this for winning and trying to trump people.

As for numbers, I never expected when I came up with the FOOL idea on a random afternoon in a dusty daychat someplace that it'd last 13+ seasons and have more than 5 or 6 human owners. It's just too crazy a pace to really expect that it'd work like that.

In any case, what I'm going to do is, release the VL players I signed. I'm not doing it because I have to. I could just give up a draft pick or let the BoD decide what to do in this instance. But I feel like between what happened with exports last night, with the discussion related to VL players and just everything else we've been mulling, I won't feel good about winning the RL next year (that's trash talk, in case you were wondering) under the taint of feeling like I "robbed" people or some business.

To reconcile the issue of the whole game-lets-commish-go-over-cap-thing, I'm going to create a regular user for myself with no commish powers and use that to file my exports. That way, this won't ever happen again to me.

I'm tempted to upload a new file before tonight's export, to allow people to make accounting and other moves, as they need to...but I dunno if that would be helpful or not.

So that's where I am.

DC,

The only assumption I could come to regarding the Quad City cap was something along those lines that the game let you do it automatically. That answers that question pretty directly I think. The only other thing I was puzzled on is the emails come different when Quad City beats me out for a free agent, than when other teams does.

Do you enter your bids in directly into the game, or do you also do an export and then import it at the same time as everyone else?

[Young Drachma]

I think I'm going to send up another file right now and then extend tonight's deadline for running the file for a few hours, that way even if someone gets the file later this evening, they'll still be able to download and make changes, etc., and then export with the new file before we sim to the start of Free Agency later on.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Alan T

DC,

The only assumption I could come to regarding the Quad City cap was something along those lines that the game let you do it automatically. That answers that question pretty directly I think. The only other thing I was puzzled on is the emails come different when Quad City beats me out for a free agent, than when other teams does.

Do you enter your bids in directly into the game, or do you also do an export and then import it at the same time as everyone else?

The game let me do it automatically. It's not like I do anything forceful to get in there or whatever. I just bid just like you all do. I just don't have an owner telling me "hey, you can't do that deal." and then preventing me from making it, like you all get. That's the only difference. But I never knew that it did that, etc., because I've never actually had a situation before like this.

I export like you all do and import at the same time you all do, too. Usually LATER than you all do and last night, I didn't even get to make the moves I wanted to make, because I was rushing to get the file out to you all. If I had, I would've released all of those guys that I wanted to before hand and then it wouldn't have been an issue at all and this debate would've never occurred.

[graygoose12]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

The game let me do it automatically. It's not like I do anything forceful to get in there or whatever. I just bid just like you all do. I just don't have an owner telling me "hey, you can't do that deal." and then preventing me from making it, like you all get. That's the only difference. But I never knew that it did that, etc., because I've never actually had a situation before like this.

I export like you all do and import at the same time you all do, too. Usually LATER than you all do and last night, I didn't even get to make the moves I wanted to make, because I was rushing to get the file out to you all. If I had, I would've released all of those guys that I wanted to before hand and then it wouldn't have been an issue at all and this debate would've never occurred.

DC I do not think you should release the VL players that you signed. I think you should release those guys that you had intended on releasing that would have gotten you under the cap. Us non-commissioner owners must release those guys prior to making any offers. We can not offer current year contracts that would bring our payroll above the salary cap.

That is another problem that the VL guys create. You are initially signing them for their first year being the season that is already run correct? That doesn't really make much sense which is why I think we should delay the signing of those guys if we continue to have them.

[graygoose12]

I hope you also understand just how frustrating it is for the me and Chief this offseason, with the talk about the VL guys, and then to see you basically hit the jackpot when it comes to them. It is unfair which is why I brought it up the other day.

I also hope you can find a way to show transactions that were made and not have them deleted at the end of the season.

[Young Drachma]

Past transactions do still exist. To get to them after the season is over, you to go to History --> click on your team's abbreviation --> the year you want to see transactions for and then click on Transaction Log.

Again, a game programming decision...not a DC-induced decision. I didn't know where they were either. I looked it up and guessed and found them.

I've released the VL guys already, plus the guys I wanted to release and didn't.

[kaosfere]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

So that's where I am.

A very well-measured response. We now have a good understanding of why this happened, and reassurance that nothing dubious happened. I'm definitely satisfied, although I may be easy to please, since I didn't think it was that huge a deal to start with.

While I certainly won't quibble with you releasing that VL players you signed, as it will give me another pass at Payton, I don't think that's necessary. I think that releasing the players you would have released to get you under the cap is perfectly fair.

If you feel that you need to go the extra distance for your own mental well-being, though, that's certainly understandable. (And all you bastards stay away from my new second baseman! )

[Young Drachma]

I understand it's frustrating for those who played and didn't get to sign, hence why I've gone this route to rectify it.

[graygoose12]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

Past transactions do still exist. To get to them after the season is over, you to go to History --> click on your team's abbreviation --> the year you want to see transactions for and then click on Transaction Log.

Again, a game programming decision...not a DC-induced decision. I didn't know where they were either. I looked it up and guessed and found them.

I've released the VL guys already, plus the guys I wanted to release and didn't.

I am not seeing transactions in the History for my team or any team.

I also do not think you should be releasing those players, but if you want to that is your decision.

[graygoose12]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

I understand it's frustrating for those who played and didn't get to sign, hence why I've gone this route to rectify it.

It's not about me or Chief, it's about the rules in general. I just don't understand why FA signing can't wait just one day to allow all a fair chance. If the VL is being deleted it lessens the need for this though.

Another concern of mine was the exports with the server issue, and with the amount of new guys I wondered if they even got a chance to export or knew what they were doing.

[graygoose12]

I mean you beat out all bids for those players (with a little extra cap space so you should not be penalized for that. That is not fair to you.

I think we should really figure out all the details of the rules to prevent all this drama from happening in the future.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by graygoose12

It's not about me or Chief, it's about the rules in general. I just don't understand why FA signing can't wait just one day to allow all a fair chance. If the VL is being deleted it lessens the need for this though.

Another concern of mine was the exports with the server issue, and with the amount of new guys I wondered if they even got a chance to export or knew what they were doing.

You did read that starting this season, the VL season will be pushed back to match our season now? That issue has been rectified after this year and the only reason it's an issue this year, is because of the quality of the players.

As for the exports v. server issue, it's surely not something I planned for and the old server came back online later last night, so I could've left stuff as it was. But I felt like it would be better to be proactive than not, since that particular server has problems before.

I am, as always, just trying to do the best I can to make stuff better, while being fair to all involved.

[gstelmack]

What I'm getting tired of is how seriously folks are taking all of this. It's just a freakin' game, and it moves at such a fast pace there are going to be warts. We point out the warts, fix them at the next opportunity, and move on. In the time it takes most other leagues to play a single season (OOTP, FOF, BBCF, whatever) all of these guys will have had their careers and moved on. I could care less that DC got some extra guys. I'm glad someone asked about the cap overage, we saw what happened, and it's easily fixed (DC releasing guys he planned on anyway).

I just don't like all of the "OMFG!" posts that go with this. Come on, we had some confusion with exports, I lost one shot at resigning Jason Curtis for less than he's asking for, and I'm not screaming or yelling about it.

Raise the issue in a civilized manner, we talk about how to fix it, then we move on.

What's funny to me is that the cause of this issue was an attempt to fix a big draft bonanza one year. If we'd just left that draft alone and then fixed the talent settings that caused it, we'd be better off.

My opinion on the actual debate at hand: I do agree that starting NEXT season (not changing anything mid-stride), we should all submit for Friday night, then DC runs the ENTIRE season, through the playoffs and all-star game, up to right before the offseason. Especially if we go to divisional/wildcard play, I don't think we really need the ability for playoff teams to submit for that. DC already makes sure enough time is taken so everyone is rested, so go with what got you there. No transactions until after the playoffs and all-star game have completed. Everyone on equal footing. Yada yada yada. And DC can run the weekend at his own pace without worrying if folks get a chance to export on Saturday or Sunday or whenever. And then it doesn't matter when the VL season finishes up.

Oh, and leave the VL alone, this was a one-time aberration. And in about 2 months, it will all be moot anyway.

[kaosfere]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

What I'm getting tired of is how seriously folks are taking all of this. It's just a freakin' game, and it moves at such a fast pace there are going to be warts. We point out the warts, fix them at the next opportunity, and move on. In the time it takes most other leagues to play a single season (OOTP, FOF, BBCF, whatever) all of these guys will have had their careers and moved on. I could care less that DC got some extra guys.

*applause*

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

What I'm getting tired of is how seriously folks are taking all of this. It's just a freakin' game, and it moves at such a fast pace there are going to be warts. We point out the warts, fix them at the next opportunity, and move on. In the time it takes most other leagues to play a single season (OOTP, FOF, BBCF, whatever) all of these guys will have had their careers and moved on. I could care less that DC got some extra guys. I'm glad someone asked about the cap overage, we saw what happened, and it's easily fixed (DC releasing guys he planned on anyway).

I just don't like all of the "OMFG!" posts that go with this. Come on, we had some confusion with exports, I lost one shot at resigning Jason Curtis for less than he's asking for, and I'm not screaming or yelling about it.

Raise the issue in a civilized manner, we talk about how to fix it, then we move on.

What's funny to me is that the cause of this issue was an attempt to fix a big draft bonanza one year. If we'd just left that draft alone and then fixed the talent settings that caused it, we'd be better off.

My opinion on the actual debate at hand: I do agree that starting NEXT season (not changing anything mid-stride), we should all submit for Friday night, then DC runs the ENTIRE season, through the playoffs and all-star game, up to right before the offseason. Especially if we go to divisional/wildcard play, I don't think we really need the ability for playoff teams to submit for that. DC already makes sure enough time is taken so everyone is rested, so go with what got you there. No transactions until after the playoffs and all-star game have completed. Everyone on equal footing. Yada yada yada. And DC can run the weekend at his own pace without worrying if folks get a chance to export on Saturday or Sunday or whenever. And then it doesn't matter when the VL season finishes up.

Oh, and leave the VL alone, this was a one-time aberration. And in about 2 months, it will all be moot anyway.

I think my issue all along has been the majority of problems (or issues or whatever) generally have come from the constant tweaking that was done for several years. It caused the league environment to be in constant flux including the whole VL issue which as you said originated from that crazy draft class.

I think since DC backed off on the constant tweaking, things have slowly gotten more normalized with the exception of this crazy VL time bomb that we set for ourselves a few seasons prior.

I honestly think as long as we keep going, things will continue to settle further down over the next few seasons and become more smoothed out. I guess I'd just like the league to be about the actual playing of the games and less to do with the constant changing of everything myself. (which is why I don't want divisional play, don't want wildcards, don't really want anything new or different.. I want things to just be playable as is).

I actually think the way the Stolen base issue was handled was perfect. An issue was brought up, a kneejerk reaction with a sudden tweak was NOT done, instead we discussed it, figured out a plan of attack and slowly/gradually made a modification with the idea that we would go back and look to see if further change is needed in a few years.

I kind of wish everything would be left alone and we could just play.. I'm getting tired or burnt out of the constant change and constant issues jumping up. I just want fun.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by kaosfere

First of all, congrats to Chief Rum on his win, and to greygoose on a great season, however it ended.

That being said...

I'm not sure just how to phrase this without being inflammatory, but it seems like some of you guys really need to learn to step away from the keyboard for a while before posting. I can understand the source of frustration, Rum, but it took you one hour and 14 minutes to go from winning the title to quitting the league.

And over... what? Confusion over how the salary cap works? Alan_T seems to have explained that. Uncertainty why QC was able to exceed the cap? Since there doesn't seem to be any sign of wrong-doing, as you yourself seem to admit, it seems like the prudent course of action is to allow people to figure out why it happened before you explode. Butthurt over not being able to sign some early free agents? We've already talked about that, and agreed (I think?) to do something about it, but not during this season, because it would be unfair to change the rules in mid stream.

I appreciate your response, kaosfere, and coming from your perspective, I understand it, even agree with it a little, myself. That said, you are out of your element on this one. This is far more a building result of disagreements and decisions and odd happenings over the life of the league. If you think I made this decision in 5 minutes, you don't know me very well. This has been under the surface for many seasons now, and I have only seen the league go further away from where I think it should go, and things continue to happen that trouble me as a player looking for a fair league in which to take part. All last night was was the last straw that showed me that the decision I had been putting off could no longer be delayed.

I fail to see, honestly, what the cause of this blow-up was. Fortunately, it seems to be highly localized so far. Perhaps Chief's own self-excisement has contributed to that. I feed bad for DC, for being at the nexus of this latest bit of drama at the same time as he's trying to get things straight for everyone, and for greygoose, for having his good showing eclipsed by a loss in the Classic and then this... nonsense.

You have mentioned the "excitement" issue a couple times, so I think I need to explain something to you, at least with respect to me. I can't say this without sounding arrogant, so I guess I'll just say it: I have been there before. I have won titles. It was my third Classic in a row. I was happy to win, but I expected to win. BTW, that's because I always expect to win, not because of anything to do with graygoose's terrific team (which had a better record than me, too). So me winning isn't quite the height of excitement for that I think you think it is. I never forget the underlying stuff--the reasons I quit--just because I won. You can't see that through your monitor, of course.

Friday night was truly exciting, because of how great the season went and how tight it was. Now, that was exciting.

Rum, I hardly know you, but from what I've read and seen here in my limited time, you seem like a decent guy. Judging by how worked up you are over this issue, maybe a step back might be good for you. I'm sad to see someone go over what looks like a misunderstanding, but, well, this is a game, and it's just not worth it, man.

Exactly. Time for a step back. A realization this isn't ever going to go the direction I want it to. That the owners of the league have a different vision than I do, and that they don't care about the stuff I care about. This is about a difference of opinion developing over a long time. So a step back is a good thing, and the right thing to do. As much fun as I had, this is not the league for me. I hope it is the league for the rest of you, and I wish you all well.

But I just determined that I cannot willfully allow myself to continue with this when I continue to be troubled by repeated issues with respect to fairness (as I determine it) and issues with how the league is run (most of which have at their base OOTP issues themselves, not anything DC is doing--OOTP is a great game in many ways, but it is also one of the most poorly designed big games ever in other ways).

Hopefully everyone else here can take a deep breath and let this situation work out peacefully. "Drama" is not some outside force that comes around to spoil our fun. You are the drama you create.

I guess that's my point. I'm new, I haven't had a chance to get worked up in the squabbles, from an outside perspective it all seems pretty trivial. Just chill a bit.

Now then... over to the 1974 thread and the future.

I hope everyone follows your advice, and do that. Just recognize that my decision was on principle, not emotion.

FWIW, I think it's silly for DC to release all of those players. He should release just one of them, the cheapest one, that gets him under the cap. He can't release previous players because they have already been paid. So it has to be one of the new signings. But he should have full right to keep the rest.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Alan T

I'm getting tired or burnt out of the constant change and constant issues jumping up. I just want fun.

That's a pretty good encapsulation of how I was feeling as well. My threshold for pain isn't as high as Alan's. I think.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Alan T

I actually think the way the Stolen base issue was handled was perfect. An issue was brought up, a kneejerk reaction with a sudden tweak was NOT done, instead we discussed it, figured out a plan of attack and slowly/gradually made a modification with the idea that we would go back and look to see if further change is needed in a few years.

Agreed 100%.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

That's a pretty good encapsulation of how I was feeling as well. My threshold for pain isn't as high as Alan's. I think.

You were never married to my ex-wife, so I can probably agree with this statement.