US Detains Children at Camp X-Ray

[sachmo71]

Eaglefan, it all has to do with our Western sensibilities. Over here, 15 year olds play video games, have sleep overs, knock up other 15 year olds, and experiment with drugs. We just can't see how they could be trained to kill...well, unless they are in gangs. Then they are just misguided.

Laid it on a bit thick, didn't I? Maybe I should take a nap.

[Fritz]

perhaps we should have sent the boys of the 12th SS back to Germany in August of 44 after capturing them in France.

[JPhillips]

Again, when did these chidren become 15? The article only says they are under 16.

If they are bad at 15, why not 12 or 9? At some point we need to see these children as children. I'm not saying we do nothing, but some sort of juvenile system with education and hope for opportunity should be a part of the plan. We should also leave them closer to their home and not cart them half way around the world. Children aren't adults. We are always looking for ways to protect our children here at home, but if we feel threatened anything goes. That doesn't say much for our morality.

[CamEdwards]

Butters,

Why bring politics into this? This has nothing to do with me "pushing an agenda" and everything to do with wanting to punish people for their actions.

I also think that 14 year olds who shoot fellow students and teachers should be tried as adults.

It's not a matter of politics, it's a matter of holding people accountable.

And yes, JPhillips, before you go off on me, I say this as a father of three kids, including a 16 year old and a 12 year old.

[CamEdwards]

Originally posted by JPhillips
Again, when did these chidren become 15? The article only says they are under 16.

If they are bad at 15, why not 12 or 9? At some point we need to see these children as children. I'm not saying we do nothing, but some sort of juvenile system with education and hope for opportunity should be a part of the plan. We should also leave them closer to their home and not cart them half way around the world. Children aren't adults. We are always looking for ways to protect our children here at home, but if we feel threatened anything goes. That doesn't say much for our morality.

Dola:

Where in the article do you see that these poor, innocent children AREN'T being taught? And did it ever occur to you that maybe the reason these poor, innocent children were carted halfway around the world is because we didn't want them near their parents? Or maybe their fathers are with them? For someone who's gotten onto others for suppositions, you're making an awful lot of them yourself.

[Fritz]

Originally posted by CamEdwards

I also think that 14 year olds who shoot fellow students and teachers should be tried as adults.

here is where I get off the Cam Edwards bus.

[CamEdwards]

you dare disagree with me???? Impudent squid lover!

[albionmoonlight]

The children thing does not bother me any more or less than the eternal detainment thing in general. I do not know whether it is legal for the U.S. to detain non-citizens for the rest of their lives with no contact with the outside world and no public evidence while giving no other justification but "terrorism." International law has a lot of room for interpretation.

I just wish we would not do it. I don't trust this or any other government to use such an awesome power correctly. (Note--this is not an attack against this administration, but against police powers given to the state in general). I also feel that our security is not worth sinking to the level of committing these detainments. Many people here express the opposite view, and it's a pretty compelling view. They say-What good is freedom if you are not alive to enjoy it? I say, what good is life if you can't feel free.

Charge these guys with a crime, try them, convict them, and keep them locked up for the rest of their lives or execute them. Don't keep them locked up forever with no public evidence.

[CamEdwards]

albion,

I agree with you. My sticking up for what's going on in Gitmo has to do with the ages of the detainees. JPhillips seems to be making a big deal out of juveniles being held.

I do believe there needs to be full accountability of who these prisoners are, why they're being detained, and what the Bush administation expects their final disposition to be.

[GrantDawg]

Originally posted by CamEdwards
albion,

I agree with you. My sticking up for what's going on in Gitmo has to do with the ages of the detainees. JPhillips seems to be making a big deal out of juveniles being held.

I do believe there needs to be full accountability of who these prisoners are, why they're being detained, and what the Bush administation expects their final disposition to be.

Boy, that sounds awfully close to criticism of the Bush adminstration. How can you possibily be conservative and do that?

I agree. There needs to be a plan for the disposition of everyone currently held. I have a friend who was called up with his reserve unit to work security over there. I was going to try and talk with him once he got home, but he was only home a week before he was called up to go to Iraq to act as a policeman over there.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally posted by JPhillips At some point we need to see these children as children.

Not if they're f'n combatants we don't. A five year old strapped with explosives is just as deadly as a forty-five year old strapped with explosives (give or take the load-carrying potential) and should be removed as a threat by whatever means neccessary.

Anything other approach seems either naive, suicidal, or both.

[CamEdwards]

Originally posted by GrantDawg
Boy, that sounds awfully close to criticism of the Bush adminstration. How can you possibily be conservative and do that?

Shhhh, don't say anything. If the other members of the vast right wing conspiracy found out I won't get my super-duper-incredibly-secret decoder ring.

[Butter]

Originally posted by CamEdwards
Butters,

Why bring politics into this? This has nothing to do with me "pushing an agenda" and everything to do with wanting to punish people for their actions.

It's not a matter of politics, it's a matter of holding people accountable.

I wasn't really talking about this issue necessarily, although the Bush administration has seemingly seen fit to trample over the Bill of Rights whenever possible in order to protect "national security". But these kids aren't American citizens. I was just asking in general if you have points of disagreement with the Bush administration, and what those might be. Because, it seems to me that every thread that has even bordered on political has resulted in you and a lot of others sticking up for the administration's point of view without fail. Was wondering if there was a line they have crossed at ANY point that has made you uncomfortable.

[JPhillips]

Cam: Well the article does say that the children are being held seperately from the adults, so does it really matter if their father's are there.

In terms of education, it doesn't mention it at all, so yes I was making a supposition, but seeing as there is no mention of educating these children or rehabilitating them it seems at least possible that we aren't.

I am happy to see you questioning the long-term incarceration of these people without charges. To me the fact that some of them are children is important. We don't see children as responsible for most of their actions, but we are willing to hold them as adults for undisclosed crimes. I think that's wrong.

Jon: We aren't talking about an imminent threat here. These children don't have explosives on their body and, I believe, can be rehabilitated/deprogrammed. Jailing tem indefinately doesn't seem to be good policy or good morality.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally posted by Butter_of_69
Was wondering if there was a line they have crossed at ANY point that has made you uncomfortable.

Since I'm probably among the "and others" group on this subject, I hope it's okay if I take a shot an answering.

In terms of Iraq, I was becoming increasingly uncomfortable with the tendency to put coalition troops at undue risk in order to present a more p.r. friendly face on the operation.

In regard to other issues, I'm opposed to the privitization of Social Security, catering to the medical profession, and extremely opposed to any attacks on a woman's right to obtain a legal abortion. Those at least cover some of the key topics of disagreement.

I also don't hesitate to say that I believe "the Supremes" determined the Presidency and that there was no shortage of monkey business involved in the Florida counting debacle. The difference in me & a lot of those who bring that up is that, given the events that followed, I thank God every day that the election was "stolen".

Given those items and others, I'd say that I might be guilty of any number of things but failing to find fault with the current administration isn't really one of them.

[CamEdwards]

Originally posted by JPhillips

In terms of education, it doesn't mention it at all, so yes I was making a supposition, but seeing as there is no mention of educating these children or rehabilitating them it seems at least possible that we aren't.

JPhillips, if you're going to make suppositions based on what's NOT in the article then...

The article makes no mention of what they eat, therefore it seems at least possible that we're starving them.

The article makes no mention of us not torturing these kids, therefore it's at least possible that we're abusing them.

The article makes no mention of what these kids are wearing, therefore it's at least possible that we're deprogramming them by forcing them to wear Gap t-shirts and Dockers.

The article makes no mention of how they spend their days, therefore it's at least possible that they're actually the tech support team for Solecismic Software.

Honestly, JPhillips, that article is so short, with so many things unanswered that you really can't draw a lot of conclusions about what's going on, other than the fact that the government's admitted some of the enemy combatants are juveniles.

[CamEdwards]

Dola: Butters, now that you've read the rest of this thread I'm assuming you know that my political views don't always jibe with those of the Bush administration.

[JPhillips]

Cam: Come on, you can do better than that. There is a big gap between saying they are being starved and abused and saying that they are possibly being denied education and rehabilitation. Given that the admin hasn't mentioned education or rehabilitation in the year plus that the children have been there that jump doesn't seem unreasonable. Afterall, the article didn't say you were right, so...

But, if you want to stick to what is specifically in the article, we are still holding an unknown number of children under sixteen for unknown reasons for an unknown length of time. That's not what the US should do regardless of how insecure we may or may not feel.

[Chief Rum]

Originally posted by JPhillips
Cam: Come on, you can do better than that. There is a big gap between saying they are being starved and abused and saying that they are possibly being denied education and rehabilitation. Given that the admin hasn't mentioned education or rehabilitation in the year plus that the children have been there that jump doesn't seem unreasonable. Afterall, the article didn't say you were right, so...

But, if you want to stick to what is specifically in the article, we are still holding an unknown number of children under sixteen for unknown reasons for an unknown length of time. That's not what the US should do regardless of how insecure we may or may not feel.

I think that's Cam's point, JPhillips. I have seen a lot of suppositions made by both sides, and I don't want to focus on you personally, since you're certainly not the only one to do so. But since the current range of this discussion between you and Cam is regarding your use of suppositions and accusations of others also using suppositions, I'll address it as such.

IMO, you never should have left the confines of the second paragraph of the above quote. If you simply posted a link to the article and stated the above, then I think that is an agreeable and defensible stance, and one that I, as a noted poster of Republican leanings, can definitely agree with.

Instead, though, you attached your suppositions to where the article's facts ended. You substituted your own opinions for actual facts. Others did the same, both in support of you and against you. And I think that is wrong for all involved.

One of the tings I have always railed about in this forum is that too often many members of this forum abandon rational or logic thought or any whit of actual evidence and proceed to invalid ad hominem attacks, unverified or logically valid assumptions, and vague generalizations and stereotypical responses.

I'm not acusing you alone of doing this or of you doing it all the time. I do think you have done that in this thread, perhaps because of your anti-Bush feelings. I believe that pro-Bush posters have doen the same in response. And none of it is right. All it does is lead to flamebaiting and the degeneration of threads, rather than a more proper and reasoned analysis of the facts at hand.

Here is the main fact I get from reading this article: We don't have enough facts to offer a reasoned opinion on this one.

Chief Rum

[MrBug708]

Chief, I think you said it best

[JPhillips]

Chief: Agreed. My defense of children, regardless of what they may be led to do, caused me to jump a bit. However, I still think that what we know, children being detained indefinately for undisclosed reasons, is below the United States.

[JPhillips]

Dola

I read back over the thread, and until didn't stray much off the article until the post at the top of page 2, and that wasn't that strong. I shouldn't have made the responce I did to Cam, which did pull me off topic. Sorry to all. Intellectual honesty really is important to me. Thanks Chief.