Alright boyz, here we go!!! Draft Day Sports: Pro Basketball 2 First Impressions

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by CleBrownsfan

OOTP fills my screen and I do not have to lean close to the screen to see what's going on.

Right but the data is not any larger/easier to see, correct? It is just spaced out over the entire screen so all you really are getting is more empty background space, right?

Like I said, I could probably force the res to change while the game is active so it would make it the full screen but in order to do what OOTP does would take a full rewrite of the UI - while thats possible for future games its not for this one.

[Bad-example]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

I guess I'm just looking for a reason why "full screen" is basically a dealbreaker when the game itself is really good

What I want is an interface that uses, not just occupies, the whole screen. Being forced to play in a windowed mode is frustrating just like wearing blinders while driving would be.

[Icy]

Originally Posted by Bad-example

What I want is an interface that uses, not just occupies, the whole screen. Being forced to play in a windowed mode is frustrating just like wearing blinders while driving would be.

But not any text sim does it, only FM or OOTP do at some extent as you can create a custom view for some screens to expand the stats columns in that given screen and the fonts etc are at the same size than default, so the problem of small fonts in big screens are still there as Gary said. In other games like FOF for example, you can have the game windows expand to full screen, but it's just the background what is expanded, not the information.

I think the only solution, and i think is what most of you are asking for but it's creating some confusion, is to be able to chose between windows at current size and full screen at same resolution but using the whole screen, not just resizing the current windows.

So the options would be:

a) Windowed at 1024x768
b) Full screen forcing the 1024x768 resolution like other PC games do.

Is that whay some of you are looking for? if so, can't you Gary add an option to play windowed for those who multitask or to chose to play on forced full screen mode?

[A-Husker-4-Life]

I like to say "Great Job Guys" the interface is sweet and playing in a window is how I always play PC games.. Full Screen is for the consoles

[SunDevil]

Originally Posted by Icy

But not any text sim does it, only FM or OOTP do at some extent as you can create a custom view for some screens to expand the stats columns in that given screen and the fonts etc are at the same size than default, so the problem of small fonts in big screens are still there as Gary said. In other games like FOF for example, you can have the game windows expand to full screen, but it's just the background what is expanded, not the information.

I think the only solution, and i think is what most of you are asking for but it's creating some confusion, is to be able to chose between windows at current size and full screen at same resolution but using the whole screen, not just resizing the current windows.

So the options would be:

a) Windowed at 1024x768
b) Full screen forcing the 1024x768 resolution like other PC games do.

Is that whay some of you are looking for? if so, can't you Gary add an option to play windowed for those who multitask or to chose to play on forced full screen mode?

For me personally that is not what I would be looking for. Both OOTP 11 and FM 2010 can either be windowed or full screen. But you can also have adjustable screen size as well. I play both games in a window, but that window is in the 1680x1050 range. To play a game in a window with a maximum size of 1024x768 is something that should not be a default hard coded single option.

I just reset my OOTP game to the 1024x768 resolution just to see how small it is compared to my usual resolution and there is no way I would want to continue to play OOTP at this new smaller resolution.

So Icy I would not want either of your options. I would want a window/full screen option with adjustable resolution up to 2560x1600. This is 2010 going on to 2011, there should be no reason whatsoever that in offering a product to this gaming audience(aka FOFC) that max resolution is 1024x768.

Just my opinion. Good luck with your game.

[Big Fo]

Are demo saved games compatible with the full version?

[Icy]

Originally Posted by SunDevil

For me personally that is not what I would be looking for. Both OOTP 11 and FM 2010 can either be windowed or full screen. But you can also have adjustable screen size as well. I play both games in a window, but that window is in the 1680x1050 range. To play a game in a window with a maximum size of 1024x768 is something that should not be a default hard coded single option.

I just reset my OOTP game to the 1024x768 resolution just to see how small it is compared to my usual resolution and there is no way I would want to continue to play OOTP at this new smaller resolution.

So Icy I would not want either of your options. I would want a window/full screen option with adjustable resolution up to 2560x1600. This is 2010 going on to 2011, there should be no reason whatsoever that in offering a product to this gaming audience(aka FOFC) that max resolution is 1024x768.

Just my opinion. Good luck with your game.

We are going offtopic but in FM or OOTP you are right that you can resize the windows to any size but the font size and the information in the screen is always the same, just more spaced to fit the whole windows, so you are just seeing more background with the bigger windows, but you are not changing the resolution or font size at all when you make the windows larger, and that is what Gary was pointing out.

[Icy]

Originally Posted by Galaril

However the last DDSPB was set up to cover the whole screen resizing is the way it should be. I have no idea why the game is not configured that way.

Are you sure? can you please double check as i haven't DDSPB installed in my pc.

I'm pretty sure that not any text sim ever from WS or even old GDS or 400ss has ever resized when changing the windows size, in fact you could not change the windows size to start with, as the graphics have always been set as backgrounds images for 1024x768 and couldn't be expanded.

It's the same as the new FBCB from GDS, that has a set size (1024x768 too) and can't be resized for exactly the same reason, using graphics as 1024x768 background.

The only text sims i have ever seen able to be resized are OOTP (post 6.5) and FM (i'm talking about windowed mode, not full screen), and both just resize the windows but not changing the font size or any graphics size, just expanding the windows and spreading the stuff inside to occupy the whole windows but not expanding it's size but having more space in between. OOTP 6.5 and earlier copies couldn't be resized either, it all started when Markus joined SI and started to use their interface libraries, and that is why OOTP and FM are the only games capable of doing it, and i insist, you can only make the windows bigger and spread the things inside to occupy all the windows leaving more space in between (unless you set custom views with more data).

FOF can also be resized but again the menus, text etc are exactly of the same size, and in this case not even spread, just the background is bigger, so the only use is to hide your desktop behind the game, but not to be able to see game bigger or better.

And btw, i'm now arguing about the fact that not any current sim besides OOTP/FM being able to be resized when windowed, not if it would be better to have DDSPB2 or future WS games to have a higher resolution as i fully agree with that as a big monitor user myself too.

[SunDevil]

Originally Posted by Icy

We are going offtopic but in FM or OOTP you are right that you can resize the windows to any size but the font size and the information in the screen is always the same, just more spaced to fit the whole windows, so you are just seeing more background with the bigger windows, but you are not changing the resolution or font size at all when you make the windows larger, and that is what Gary was pointing out.

You are wrong for OOTP 11. Based on the screen size you see different information. One of many examples I saw when doing this comparison in the earlier post, when you lower the screen size, the stats on the league standings screen show less information. Increase the screen size, and the list of players by rank and also what stat columns get displayed increases.

In the end for me, the screen size at 1024x768 is too small for a window, and I do not play games in full screen mode.

Icy, I am sure that you and the rest of the development worked really hard on this game and wish the team the best of luck.

[Icy]

Originally Posted by SunDevil

You are wrong for OOTP 11. Based on the screen size you see different information. One of many examples I saw when doing this comparison in the earlier post, when you lower the screen size, the stats on the league standings screen show less information. Increase the screen size, and the list of players by rank and also what stat columns get displayed increases.

In the end for me, the screen size at 1024x768 is too small for a window, and I do not play games in full screen mode.

Icy, I am sure that you and the rest of the development worked really hard on this game and wish the team the best of luck.

Ok thanks, i stand (partially ) corrected about OOTP, i knew you could have more info in a bigger windows with custom views (that i always use) but not as default, but you still only see more info in some screens, take a look and you will see that other screens with less stats are just spread but the graphics do not change size. It still proves my point that the font size or graphics size are the same, so your eyes will be strained the same and it was the problem that a few were talking about.

And again only OOTP and FM, that share the same interface libraries, can do that, not any other text sim do and not any text sim auto resizes the font or graphics when the windows is maximized.

So if the problem is with seeing things too small in the screen with current high resolutions that most of us use, the only way to solve it would be adding a full screen mode forcing the 1024 resolution or designing static graphics and using bigger fonts for a higher resolution, that would leave those that still use 1024 without support (i wonder if there are many of those).

[Tim Tellean]

Originally Posted by SunDevil

You are wrong for OOTP 11. Based on the screen size you see different information. One of many examples I saw when doing this comparison in the earlier post, when you lower the screen size, the stats on the league standings screen show less information. Increase the screen size, and the list of players by rank and also what stat columns get displayed increases.

In the end for me, the screen size at 1024x768 is too small for a window, and I do not play games in full screen mode.

Icy, I am sure that you and the rest of the development worked really hard on this game and wish the team the best of luck.

The on-court display in DDSPB2 occupies two windows. If you look at the on-court in 1024x768 you will not see PBP and stats unless you click the Recap button at the top of the screen and then the Recap lays over half the court, if your display is larger than 1024x768 you will see the recap as a second movable window.

[Tim Tellean]

Originally Posted by Galaril

However the last DDSPB was set up to cover the whole screen resizing is the way it should be. I have no idea why the game is not configured that way.

Actually it did not resize.

[Tim Tellean]

Originally Posted by Galaril

Thanks...........I can't remember but was the entire game screen only 6x8 inches as now? I don't remember that?

Not sure about 6x8 but I know its always been (Since TPB '05) 1024x768.

[DaddyTorgo]

eh - i don't think it's bothering that many people TBH

[Gary Gorski]

Ok so basically what people are saying is that you're going to pass on a great game that has improved by leaps and bounds and has features that everyone asks for in the next text sims because the window is 1024x768 but if that window would expand to cover your entire screen - even though no more data would be shown or be shown any bigger as is the case with most of the other text sims that you as a community rave about then you'd be interested?

Perhaps its my frustration that more than a year's worth of work went into the game to not just update it - no - to completely revamp it with a ton of cool new features. Everyone says they love FM so much and why can't other games be like FM and yet I take the time to build in a foundation to move in that direction with some of the player and media interaction and is that what we're talking about? No, nobody gives a damn about that because the screen is "too small" or they can't figure out what an icon does (even though there is a MASSIVE help file with the game).

Go ahead, bring out the "well that's not a professional response" posts. I don't really care - I've tried like hell to build a relationship with this community. I've listened to comments, read what you've critiqued in my games and others and even gone out of my way to highlight things that should be of interest (such as the 4 page document I posted that I'm sure very few read) - I've always owned the things that were done poorly or mistakes that I had made but here's a brand new game with a ton of updates and the only feedback basically has been two pages of bitching about screen size and that the UI (which has always been very sharp looking and graphic intensive so that you had something pleasing to look at) looks the same.

To me that just seems like some people are looking for a reason not to like the game. You've seen what's happened to this genre over the past few years. This is my first release in a couple of years. Shaun put in a TON of work on PureSim and not many people have given it a chance. Where's the new versions of FOF, TCY, BBPF, BBCF? Jump Shot Basketball - dead. FBB - dead. FBCB only brought back recently after a LONG hiatus. You've got SI, Markus and Mogul because they have enough people who buy the game every year to support them regardless. I would think that if you love these games as much as you say you do that your approach would be finding the things to love about a game like this and then overlooking the things that aren't game killing issues like crashes and logic that lets players score 120 points a game. The screen doesn't fill your desktop - ok, not your preference and duly noted for future games - but really? That's the reason not to play the game? It's not like you need a microscope to see the game window or something. And yes, it matters because one person not liking a menu in a demo of Madden and refusing to buy it means squat to EA - one person refusing to buy and support a game they even admit they like because of screen size matters a ton to someone like me. I've always tried to offer great customer support because when you get as relatively few sales as my games do every single customer matters a ton.

To be honest I'm frustrated and disappointed - I had always thought that this was a community of gamers that really looked into the depths of the game. That it was the nuances and details of a game that really made it great - that the game could be a glorified spreadsheet and they wouldn't care because it was so damn compelling and interesting that they didn't care. I had hoped for a couple pages of pointing out both the good and innovative with the game and the areas that could still use some improving to help get it to the next level and instead the only thing anyone cares about is how much space it takes up on their screen.

For those of you who have posted positive comments in the thread or are enjoying the demo I apologize for the above - the comments are not directed at you - and I thank you and I hope you will purchase the game tomorrow when it hits the webstore. I also hope that you will come and post those thoughts on the WS forums where we can actually discuss the merits of the game itself. The game is what it is - its a fantastic game in a fixed window size and there's nothing I can do about that. If that means you want one less sports sim of an already dwindling number at your disposal then so be it. Nobody outside of SI, Markus and Mogul are making a living doing this and the developers that are still actively producing games are putting tons of effort into really good games - it just doesn't make sense to me that anyone would like a game and choose not to support it for something like size of the game window. That's certainly your choice and you're welcomed to it but the more reasons people look for to not support games in this genre will only lead to fewer of these games being made. I'm not suggesting that you need to buy every text sim - if the game is buggy, plays poorly, gives you terribly unrealistic results then no but those aren't the gripes here. I'm just disappointed that so many seem to be so willing to dismiss the game over something like screen size.

Anyhow, again to the people who are actually giving the game consideration, thank you and I hope to see you in our forums to discuss both what you like about the game and what I can do to make it even better for you to play.

[DaddyTorgo]

It's pissing me off that this thread seems to have devolved into that is all Galaril.

And I get that it was in some part due to people trying to engage with you constructively around the issue, but the bottom line is that you and others haven't disengaged and made space for people who want to make positive comments about the game, but instead you've turned this into 2 pages of complaining about the damn screen size because you all like to sit 19 feet away from your monitors and have screen resolutions that are like 4000 by 4000 or something ridiculous.

And you see in the post above the end result of that - you've taken a guy who is one of the few developers still out there producing games of this genre and frustrated him and caused him to think that nobody appreciates his work, and made him think that this community is a POS, instead of the good place that it is.

Seriously...I get it...you all wish the game supported different resolutions. But how about balancing that criticism with some positive impressions instead of just endlessly harping on the same damn point.

Look - if Gary was Clay and produced an unrealistic game that produced wonky stats or something...if the core mechanics of the game were poor or produced unrealistic results, I'd be all behind saying "meh...game's not that great."

But that's not the fucking case at all. The only complaint that has been raised to date is UI-related. That's not even frigging gameplay related.

FOF has a UI straight out of like...the 1980's and yet everyone still gushes over it. Since when did we all become so fucking picky about UI that we let it obscure a statistically solid and enjoyable game hmm??

What have we turned into frigging faggoty joystick-jockies??

For fuck's sake. And yes...this is seriously pissing me off.

[Groundhog]

Co-signed.

[molson]

Ya, I have to agree with all that DT.

And I thought the whole point of a giant monitor was that you can have a bunch of applications running on various parts of the screen (and for movies, and graphics-intensive games, perhaps).

[DaddyTorgo]

How bout we all hunker down with the demo and comment on actual gameplay pros & cons hmm?

[DaddyTorgo]

I still want to see if I can get a fast-breaking team to run fast-break style and actually create odd-numbered situations on the offensive end of the floor...

[Atocep]

This thread is embarrassing.

I don't blame Gary one bit for being frustrated and a thread like this is the last think I would have expected to see on FOFC. This is a place that's been really good to people that create a solid product while at the same being harsh on people that push out substandard games and treat the community like shit.

[Neon_Chaos]

Haven't all Wolverine Studios games had fixed screen size ever since before?

I'm quite surprised that someone's complaining about it now.

That said, I'll purchase once I have the dough. DDS:PB and DDS:CB got a ton of play from me.

[Big Fo]

I'm up early as hell to watch the final day of the Ryder Cup. When does the game go on sale?

Having a new game to play will ease the pain of us getting slapped around by the Euros

[TroyF]

I'm not angry, just stunned. The game itself is rock solid. I can't believe someone won't buy a game because of screen resolution. The screen res issue is settled. Lets talk about the game now.

FWIW: Gary and I have had some long email strings about FM and how to incorporate aspects of it into the basketball game. This is a guy who cares about the product he puts out and wants to make it great.

[Bad-example]

I'm sorry I complained about the interface in the first place. I sure didn't mean to turn this into a bitchfest. If the game didn't look like potentially a lot of fun, I wouldn't have posted at all. I'm a difficult customer to please and that is why I don't often buy games in the genre.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Bad-example

I'm sorry I complained about the interface in the first place. I sure didn't mean to turn this into a bitchfest. If the game didn't look like potentially a lot of fun, I wouldn't have posted at all. I'm a difficult customer to please and that is why I don't often buy games in the genre.

I didn't mean to jump down anybody's throat - posting a comment about it is fine obviously ...it just seemed like this thread got wayyyy off topic and I wanted to try to bring it back to a positive place.

As Troy and Atocep have said - this has always been a positive community where we reward guys who put out solid games and have great customer service, and it seems like we're just ripping into one of those guys here (one of the few left) who has put out a solid game with a raft of improvements based pretty much entirely on the feedback he got from customers of the first game. In other words, an ideal developer.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by TroyF

I'm not angry, just stunned. The game itself is rock solid. I can't believe someone won't buy a game because of screen resolution. The screen res issue is settled. Lets talk about the game now.

FWIW: Gary and I have had some long email strings about FM and how to incorporate aspects of it into the basketball game. This is a guy who cares about the product he puts out and wants to make it great.

That's for sure. And the interactions that are in there now - as far as I can tell in a half-season, are a strong first step.

Which isn't to say there's not room for improvement (because hell...there always is), but it will definitely make the game more immersive.

Even in my half season last night as the Celtics I had Rondo and Perkins at each other's throats. WTF am I going to do about that? Trade Perkins? Then I'm left with nobody at Center. So I've got to ride it out and hope they mend fences.

One thing I'm curious about - are the player personalities for real players hardcoded, or randomized Gary?

And a question that got buried up above maybe: I always want to play a fun style of basketball that i'd enjoy watching (up-tempo, suns-style). Can this be replicated in the game? I know I found in DDSPB1 that it seemed almost impossible to get those sort of odd-man rushes or scrambling defenses...defenders always seemed to stick close to their guys. Has this changed at all?

[Ben E Lou]

On the one hand, Gary's right: the screen resolution complaints are frivolous at best, red herrings at worst.

On the other, developers need to, ahem, *develop* thicker skins. Less than 1% of FOFC's regular users--less than 5% of the people who have read this particular thread, even--are complaining about the resolution, yet he feels the need to post a 7-paragraph epistle that characterizes the entire forum by this.

I'm not singling Gary out in that. It's just the latest example. I'm in communication with several game developers, and it's absolutely stunning to me how they say/think "everyone at FOFC hates this about my game." It isn't isolated. It's on a regular basis. It completely amazes me that these guys even pay attention to the vocal small minorities. But it's worse than that: they don't just pay attention to them: they let them get to them.

I really don't get it.

[whomario]

@ DT : As far as i can tell it isn´t able to actually see that with the 2D engine. It definitely is there, i.e. the strategy options make a difference, but the in-game interface in the DDSPB titles is more or less a visual aid and as far as i can tell not an actual game-engine like in FM. Think about it, the enginge uses rectal-shaped objects occupying like 5% of the court each, how can you make that reresent scrambling defense or proper fastbreaks ?
It´s not criticism either as i see it as merely a cosmetical thing as long as the underlying sim engine is solid (and it is), the only reason FM can do what they do as that they are just much bigger and have used it much longer. Also, football/soccer is much less stat driven than Basketball (there´s still almost zero stats about games , it is more important to show what´s exactly and actually happening on the field than it is with Basketball. In my opinion at least.


Hope that makes sense ?

It´s one of the reasons why i basically never use it, i sim 99% of my games and i´m not unhappy with that at all.

There isn´t a text-only option, is there ? (no 2D, just text-event and possibility to adjust tactics and substitutions)

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by whomario

As far as i can tell it isn´t able to actually see that with the 2D engine. It definitely is there, i.e. the strategy options make a difference, but the in-game interface in the DDSPB titles is more or less a visual aid and as far as i can tell not an actual game-engine like in FM.

Hope that makes sense ?

It´s one of the reasons why i basically never use it, i sim 99% of my games and i´m not unhappy with that at all.

There isn´t a text-only option, is there ? (no 2D, just text-event and possibility to adjust tactics and substitutions)

You mean as far as seeing fast breaks and such?

Gotcha.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

On the one hand, Gary's right: the screen resolution complaints are frivolous at best, red herrings at worst.

On the other, developers need to, ahem, *develop* thicker skins. Less than 1% of FOFC's regular users--less than 5% of the people who have read this particular thread, even--are complaining about the resolution, yet he feels the need to post a 7-paragraph epistle that characterizes the entire forum by this.

I'm not singling Gary out in that. It's just the latest example. I'm in communication with several game developers, and it's absolutely stunning to me how they say/think "everyone at FOFC hates this about my game." It isn't isolated. It's on a regular basis. It completely amazes me that these guys even pay attention to the vocal small minorities. But it's worse than that: they don't just pay attention to them: they let them get to them.

I really don't get it.

Ben posted! WOOT!

Anyhow I'll start here - this isn't an issue about being "thick skinned". Some members of this forum have taken me to task in the past about releases that were buggy or whatnot and with 100% accuracy in their statements and I certainly owned up to that. I never accused FOFC of picking on my games or anything like that. In fact each time I released a game I would wait to see what the response here would be - I've tried to incorporate user feedback and even as Troy pointed out carry on discussions with individual members in an attempt to figure out what it is that causes the vocal majority at FOFC to gush over a game like FM or FOF. I know basketball isn't the favorite sport of people on a football game forum but soccer isn't either and the love for FM is what inspired me to hope that maybe people could get behind a basketball sim that tries to offer a similar experience.

As I said, I've always looked at this place as a group of "intelligent" gamers - a group that didn't care if the game looked like it rolled off the Commodore 64 so long as it had the guts of a truly remarkable game. That's WHY the comments in this thread bothered me so much. It wasn't anyone pointing out things they didn't like with the demo or things that didn't work. It was people saying its a GREAT game but they're not going to support it or even try it because of screen size. To me that was the ultimate WTF moment because of ALL places I NEVER would have expected that here. I would expect to be ripped and hung out to dry if all my game consisted of was a beer tent and the ability to change uniform colors but it doesn't. The game has been developed over the course of 7 years and its developed into a damn good game whether you like the sport of basketball or not.

I do pay attention to the vocal minority because every single person matters to me. I don't have the luxury of doing tens of thousands of sales or even thousands of sales so if someone does make a comment on the game I try to remember and incorporate it in the future so that they will become a customer later on. There's going to be some people that just look for an excuse not to like something and I can accept that but that doesn't mean I'm not going to listen and not going to try and do something about it in case that person really would give the game a chance either now or in the future.

And once more, I know that it was just a handful of people doing most of the griping about the screen size in this thread - I am very appreciative of the people who have posted comments and that's why I'm here. I've never even complained if the comments are negative, so long as they are fair and based on fact. The negatives are just opportunities to do something better with the game. I just want feedback period. I want to be able to discuss the good things and work on fixing the not so good. I'm just trying to make a game that the majority of this community can get excited about and eventually put up their on their must play list like a FM or OOTP. If I thought this community was full of people who couldn't appreciate a good game for being a good game I wouldn't have gave a damn in the first place.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by Big Fo

I'm up early as hell to watch the final day of the Ryder Cup. When does the game go on sale?

Having a new game to play will ease the pain of us getting slapped around by the Euros

Game will be released sometime this evening - probably 8ish EST when I get home from work and can compile the final build. I was fixing a couple things from the demo yesterday that I wanted right in the 1.0 official release.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

That's for sure. And the interactions that are in there now - as far as I can tell in a half-season, are a strong first step.

Which isn't to say there's not room for improvement (because hell...there always is), but it will definitely make the game more immersive.

Even in my half season last night as the Celtics I had Rondo and Perkins at each other's throats. WTF am I going to do about that? Trade Perkins? Then I'm left with nobody at Center. So I've got to ride it out and hope they mend fences.

One thing I'm curious about - are the player personalities for real players hardcoded, or randomized Gary?

And a question that got buried up above maybe: I always want to play a fun style of basketball that i'd enjoy watching (up-tempo, suns-style). Can this be replicated in the game? I know I found in DDSPB1 that it seemed almost impossible to get those sort of odd-man rushes or scrambling defenses...defenders always seemed to stick close to their guys. Has this changed at all?

I bolded your response because THAT is why I'm here. I 100% admit that there can always be improvements and if we can get some constructive talk going about both the good and the bad then I can and will make those improvements and I can make them now.

Player personalities are hard coded in the file (in terms of the tendency to be an overall good guy or not) but the relationships are randomized every game so in your next league Rondo and Perkins might be best friends. You can also try to call either one or both and see if they'll change their personality as a method of trying to work this out. Of course it might just piss the guy off that you're asking him to change instead of the other guy but its an option.

The 2D really hasn't changed much but I've got a guy who wants to help me out and he's going to see if he can do something with the 2D to make it more fluent and give more options for this kind of stuff. The engine recognizes what you want to do with pace and tempo but the 2D isn't there yet. Not to say it won't be or can't be - I'd love to see it improved myself but so far I've spent the work "under the hood".

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by whomario

There isn´t a text-only option, is there ? (no 2D, just text-event and possibility to adjust tactics and substitutions)

You mean kind of like an ESPN Gamecast sort of thing?

It doesn't exist now but I've thought of that kind of thing before - just didn't want to spend the time doing it if nobody would use it but it could be possible. I could essentially take what the 2D does, put it on a smaller screen and just ignore the movements so it might not be a ton of work if there's an interest in this.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

I bolded your response because THAT is why I'm here. I 100% admit that there can always be improvements and if we can get some constructive talk going about both the good and the bad then I can and will make those improvements and I can make them now.

Player personalities are hard coded in the file (in terms of the tendency to be an overall good guy or not) but the relationships are randomized every game so in your next league Rondo and Perkins might be best friends. You can also try to call either one or both and see if they'll change their personality as a method of trying to work this out. Of course it might just piss the guy off that you're asking him to change instead of the other guy but its an option.

The 2D really hasn't changed much but I've got a guy who wants to help me out and he's going to see if he can do something with the 2D to make it more fluent and give more options for this kind of stuff. The engine recognizes what you want to do with pace and tempo but the 2D isn't there yet. Not to say it won't be or can't be - I'd love to see it improved myself but so far I've spent the work "under the hood".

Sounds cool! And it's good to know that at least the engine recognizes what i want to do with pace and tempo (i would assume so of course, but nice to have that confirmation).

Yeah - I tried telling Perkins to chill the fuck out (apparently it was him who was being a hothead) but he was being an asshole. Had the demo not stopped I probably would have had to deal him .

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

You mean kind of like an ESPN Gamecast sort of thing?

It doesn't exist now but I've thought of that kind of thing before - just didn't want to spend the time doing it if nobody would use it but it could be possible. I could essentially take what the 2D does, put it on a smaller screen and just ignore the movements so it might not be a ton of work if there's an interest in this.

Couldn't one just ignore the 2d view (bury the window behind something) and get essentially the same effect?

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Couldn't one just ignore the 2d view (bury the window behind something) and get essentially the same effect?

Well the game could probably move a little quicker if it isn't actually processing the 2D movement plus the screen could be redesigned to be more useful to that sort of thing by shrinking the court way down and essentially making it operate just like Gamecast

[DaddyTorgo]

Aaaah.

*nods*

LOL - I find the game moves plenty fast enough in 2d through a game. Yikes!

[Gary Gorski]

BTW - the last comment I will make regarding the screen size issue. Despite there being nothing I can do about it for DDSPB2 - I really hope that you will support the game still if you enjoy it. I promise I will put the screen size issue on the radar for future versions of all my games - I'm not telling you "this is how I do it so screw you". All I'm saying is this is how it was done, it can be done differently in the future but I hope you can still consider supporting a really good game this time and then next time have your desires for screen size issues met.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

I could essentially take what the 2D does, put it on a smaller screen and just ignore the movements so it might not be a ton of work if there's an interest in this.

Yeah, basically

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by whomario

Yeah, basically

I'll give it a look and see what I can do with it. Might not be something I could do right away but give me some time and I will see if I can work up something useful

[whomario]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

I'll give it a look and see what I can do with it. Might not be something I could do right away but give me some time and I will see if I can work up something useful

appreciated Maybe have a look at the FBCB2 demo. I don´t know why it is, but despite very limited text that play-by-play really "gets me".

Overall, a little more descriptive text would be highly appreciated in that case obviously

And long term a good-looking gamecast type screen would be pretty neat as well.

But as said, right now i´m perfectly fine simming full games as i´m really enjoying the game as a long-term sim and often sim weeks at a time and generally breeze through the seasons and can get multiple seasons done over a weekend.

[Tim Tellean]

Originally Posted by whomario

appreciated Maybe have a look at the FBCB2 demo. I don´t know why it is, but despite very limited text that play-by-play really "gets me".

Overall, a little more descriptive text would be highly appreciated in that case obviously

And long term a good-looking gamecast type screen would be pretty neat as well.

But as said, right now i´m perfectly fine simming full games as i´m really enjoying the game as a long-term sim and often sim weeks at a time and generally breeze through the seasons and can get multiple seasons done over a weekend.

I know you said you're having issues with the 2d but I thought I would offer that the PbP is running in a second box called game recap, with all the stats updated constantly.
If you run at larger than 1024x768 you should see the window/box to the right of your on-court. Thought it can't hurt.

[Capital]

It was a busy weekend and Monday and didn't get a chance to check in on the new DDSPB2 demo. Wanted to see how things are progressing and then saw this thread...wow. It did make for interesting reading.

Anyway, I have purchased almost a half dozen games from Wolverine (2 pro and 2 college games) and will likely purchase this game as well. From everything I have seen thus far, the basketball statistical engine and numerous GM options appear strong - that's what I am looking for in my text based games. I travel a decent amount and these quality text based sports games is what I'm looking for - something quick and fun to play in a hotel room.

I did read the 4 page promo on WS and there looks like a ton of new features. I probably would have bought the game for expansion and a save on the sub matrix alone. There's a lot of other features and I'm sure tweaks that wouldn't be in a write-up.

Anyway, I'm just glad there's a new text based sports game to play. I like OOTP but spend too much time setting up a new game. They have streamlined the start, but the default has way too many levels of minors for my liking. I deleted a couple of minor leagues (split season) then expanded the league and just couldn't get things to work correctly. Gave up after the 3rd attempt when a league completely crashed everytime on the same day. maybe I'll try again next year, maybe I won't - don't know. (BTW - the sim/standings screen in OOTP listed 3 league leaders per stat category in higher res on my large widescreen monitor and only 2 leaders in the 1024 res laptop).

Gary, looking forward to playing this game later in the week - right in time for basketball season.

[Capital]

Also, loved the Beta Dynasty - it helped to pique my interest in the game.

[Sweed]

FWIW I made the jump from Total Pro Basketball 2005 to DDSPB2 so some things may be new to me but not others.

The design of the player card is top notch stuff. Having all of the player information in one view rather than having to go to different tabs is a huge thing to me. IMHO, this feature alone would almost make it worth purchasing as an upgrade to the old TPB.

Player interaction IE fighting, friends, comments in the news, etc is a great addition. Only 20 games into my Laker dynasty but Blake and Bynum are having some issues.

Right now I am only being GM and simulating games and checking boxscores. So I haven't watched any games to comment on how an actual game flows but the stats I'm getting from the boxscores are great.

My one suggestion so far is from playing as a GM only standpoint. In my Laker game Phil is starting Odom and bringing Artest off the bench. Fair enough and something a real coach might want to do. The problem is this puts Artest out on the floor as "the man\scorer" with the second unit. Odom's stats tend to suffer a bit from this as he takes less shots while playing with Kobe and Pau on the floor with him.

So Gary..
I would suggest (and wonder if it would be possible) to be able to suggest to the coach to take a guy out of the lineup and make him the 6th man along with suggesting who might start in his place? This would be kind of like now when asking a player to work on one thing at the expense of another.

Something like..

Head Coach: "Ok Mr. GM you wanted to talk about Artest? What did you want to discuss?"

>playing time
>playing style
>role or position in depth chart (or whatever you may want to call it)
>his attitude
>never mind

Select the "role" option you could have something like
>I'd like to see Artest start at SF
(along with the options to start at any of the 5 positions)

If coach agrees it would be a simple switch of the current SF (in my case Odom) and the player you want to start (Artest).

I'm sure this could get pretty complex.
Should you as a GM even make the suggestion?

How do you, the programmer, make it stick?

How long would it stick?

Under what circumstances would your coach agree to make the change?
I would suggest if players are nearly equal there is at least a chance of making the change. In my case Artest is 2.5 balls while Odom is 3.0 so maybe it could be considered. Maybe the coach could look at the starting lineup scorers compared to the second unit and make the move if "he" could "see" that it gave him better balanced scorers with each unit?

Maybe its too hard to do but thought I'd throw it out there for you to consider.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Capital

Also, loved the Beta Dynasty - it helped to pique my interest in the game.

Yup. That was the biggest factor in me buying the game really. DDS:PB2 was on my radar as only the faintest of blips prior to reading through that.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by Sweed

FWIW I made the jump from Total Pro Basketball 2005 to DDSPB2 so some things may be new to me but not others.

The design of the player card is top notch stuff. Having all of the player information in one view rather than having to go to different tabs is a huge thing to me. IMHO, this feature alone would almost make it worth purchasing as an upgrade to the old TPB.

Player interaction IE fighting, friends, comments in the news, etc is a great addition. Only 20 games into my Laker dynasty but Blake and Bynum are having some issues.

Right now I am only being GM and simulating games and checking boxscores. So I haven't watched any games to comment on how an actual game flows but the stats I'm getting from the boxscores are great.

My one suggestion so far is from playing as a GM only standpoint. In my Laker game Phil is starting Odom and bringing Artest off the bench. Fair enough and something a real coach might want to do. The problem is this puts Artest out on the floor as "the man\scorer" with the second unit. Odom's stats tend to suffer a bit from this as he takes less shots while playing with Kobe and Pau on the floor with him.

So Gary..
I would suggest (and wonder if it would be possible) to be able to suggest to the coach to take a guy out of the lineup and make him the 6th man along with suggesting who might start in his place? This would be kind of like now when asking a player to work on one thing at the expense of another.

Something like..

Head Coach: "Ok Mr. GM you wanted to talk about Artest? What did you want to discuss?"

>playing time
>playing style
>role or position in depth chart (or whatever you may want to call it)
>his attitude
>never mind

Select the "role" option you could have something like
>I'd like to see Artest start at SF

If coach agrees it would be a simple switch of the current SF (in my case Odom) and the player you want to start (Artest).

I'm sure this could get pretty complex.
Should you as a GM even make the suggestion?

How do you, the programmer, make it stick?

How long would it stick?

Under what circumstances would your coach agree to make the change?
I would suggest if players are nearly equal there is at least a chance of making the change. In my case Artest is 2.5 balls while Odom is 3.0 so maybe it could be considered. Maybe the coach could look at the starting lineup scorers compared to the second unit and make the move if "he" could "see" that it gave him better balanced scorers with each unit?

Maybe its too hard to do but thought I'd throw it out there for you to consider.

Well the game has a module already for suggesting things to the head coach - I can certainly take a look and see about making this one of the topics you can discuss with him.

[whomario]

agree with that definitely !

I tend to "cheat" a bit there and go into the DB (export ---> acesss ---> import) and change the players potential positions.

That´s another pet peeve : The game is way to generous assigning a player multiple legit positions. Very many guys are assigned 3 positions to play, this becomes especially annoying when you have decently creative SFs starting at Point Guard. He might be the best option there as per the ratings but still it just feels weird to see a guy average 15 points and 5-6 assists and 4 Turnovers out of postion rather than a backup PG that might get only 9-10 PPG but propably 5-6 APG with 2 TPG.

It definitely isn´t as noticeable as in DDSPB1 but still there.

Similarly there´s still too many 6´11, 270 pound guys playing small Forward.

Both hold true with game-created players as well.


What i absolutely love is the AI now having 6th men and not allways starting the 5 best (by star rating) players

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

Well the game has a module already for suggesting things to the head coach - I can certainly take a look and see about making this one of the topics you can discuss with him.

Yep, been using the call mode already. I wasn't sure though how touchy the lineup AI might be or if something like this might cause issues. Just thought I'd throw it out there for you to wrap your coder's mind around. If you came backs and said "no way to complex" I'd understand. Certainly wouldn't be a game breaker, but if one doesn't ask one doesn't know.

If it could be done it would be a nice addition, even if Phil tells me to mind my own business and get back to the office.

Thanks.