Front Office Football, the Card Game

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

My thoughts after a quick read of the rules:

I'm surprised the home defense is stronger than the away defense, but the offenses are the same. I'd have thought the home offense should be stronger than away, but the defenses would be the same.
Is the manual in black and white? It seems like with the colored dice, it would make sense to put it in color.
That's a lot of lookups for each play -- I like how it adds to the complexity, but I wonder how long it takes on average to figure out what happened on a play.
I like the idea of having the formation on the back and playing the card face down while the defense chooses a play, along with the audibles.
I think it's confusing that the game is called Front Office Football. For one, there's already a (computer) game with that name, and for another, Front Office doesn't really describe it (though I understand the idea of name recognition).

Also, are the expanded game rules not up yet, or am I just missing them?

[EagleFan]

Shame it wasn't a TCY 2 kind of light bulb moment... just sayin'

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

My thoughts after a quick read of the rules:

I'm surprised the home defense is stronger than the away defense, but the offenses are the same. I'd have thought the home offense should be stronger than away, but the defenses would be the same.
Is the manual in black and white? It seems like with the colored dice, it would make sense to put it in color.
That's a lot of lookups for each play -- I like how it adds to the complexity, but I wonder how long it takes on average to figure out what happened on a play.
I like the idea of having the formation on the back and playing the card face down while the defense chooses a play, along with the audibles.
I think it's confusing that the game is called Front Office Football. For one, there's already a (computer) game with that name, and for another, Front Office doesn't really describe it (though I understand the idea of name recognition).

To answer your questions:

In terms of game flow and design, it's far easier to build the home field advantage into the defensive cards. It's a small one. I've never studied whether there's more of an offensive or defensive home-field advantage in the NFL. That would be an interesting variable to assess at some point.

The manual is in black-and-white. The way the dice work, it's not going to be confusing, and it saves a lot of money.

Once you've run a couple of plays, maybe 10-15 seconds. The way the dice work makes a lookup short, and it proceeds, defense card to get rating, offense card to get chart column, chart to get yardage, on rare occasions second look at the chart.

The expanded game rules require reconfiguration of the v.1 rules and charts. I'm not going to do that unless I reach the printing stage. This was the game that would most likely take 4 hours, though the streamlining of the card design easily knocks an hour off.

I realized once I reached v.1 and started playtesting that the game simply wouldn't work as a stand-alone in that form. So v.2 (this is more like v.2.5 now) is designed as an hour-long game.

I hope it funds. It is something I'd play with friends who were into football. My girlfriend even enjoyed being part of the testing - she surprised me with her ability to adopt a strong strategy without even a suggestion on my part.

[Marc Vaughan]

I've tweeted about the game and will prod it around on a few forums I frequent - if anyone else is feeling kind then I'd suggest they do the same, word of mouse is a useful tool ...

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

I don't think it's purely "generational." There are lots of people not too much older than you (I'm 43) who got their start into the sim world playing dice-and-card type games, and a fair number of them (especially at *this* board..I'll deal with that later) won't purchase this.

In 1978, when I was 9, the very few electronic options didn't come anywhere close to what Statis-Pro and Strat-O-Matic could offer in terms of depth, stats, etc. There was Atari, Intellivision, and the little hand-held control-the-little-blip games. No stats, and just the barest hint of play calling or coaching or strategy.

Fast-forward 20 years to FOF's release. Those of us who had interest in taking the dice-and-cards concept to the next level and having career sims jumped over to FOF, Mogul, OOTP, etc. My personal story is that from around 1992-1997, I played every version of Strat-O-Matic Computer Baseball, the PC adaptation of that game. I wrote the company every year with a list of issues that needed to be addressed. They addressed many of my issues, and I bought the newest version every year. I guess I would be what you'd call a "loyal customer. " But the one feature request they never addressed that caused them to lose me was that at least once a year I included a plea for some sort of "career" options to that game. They never did it, and when FOF and BBM showed up in 1997-98, Strat never got another dime from me.

And to circle back to why this particular board isn't the target audience, many of us are part of a self-selecting group. We're either too young to have played sports sim board games, or we played those games but our interest evolved to the computer and to *career* sims. Think about it: whenever someone mentions some teh awesome computer game that has no career option, the vast majority of people here write it off immediately.

However, nearly 35 years after I sat in my bedroom holding Dave Kingman's Statis Pro card and keeping score on a piece of paper, people are still playing Statis-Pro, Strat-O-Matic, and probably other games I don't care about. If JG can tap into that market by producing something better than Strat in particular, then more power to him, and ultimately, probably good for us as well.

Pretty much this. I have really fond memories of board games like strat, pursue the pennant and the like. Still remember when Vince freakin Coleman hit a grand slam in the world series to lead my friends team over mine. The game almost didn't survive my anger that night. I even replayed an entire season of strat and kept a game log of each game, season statistics, and selected award winners. Don't even ask me how much time or stacks of paper that cost.

Now I play FM, gary's basketball games and the like. If it doesn't say career, I'm done. No interest. All of my friends are married or live away. I travel a ton and have little time. If I do get together with friends now, it's to watch a game and talk about life. Not really sit down for a long board game session.

So my interest in this game is zero. (if I look at the kickstarter in three weeks and think some money might make a difference, I will donate, that's based on the respect I have for Jim, not based on anything else) if this game were on the ipad with a respectable ai? I'd spend $30 bucks on it in a hearbeat. It would be the perfect game to play on the plane. (I'm actually excited by Gridiron Solitaire by Bill Harris coming out for that very purpose)

As a board game I have no interest. I hope Jim reaches the goal and can produce it. For fans of that genre, I have little doubt it will be a terrific game. If/when he decides to get back into the computer realm, I'll be waiting.

[Marc Vaughan]

Had a few messages back from my tweet already - including requests for an iOS version .... I've prodded them towards the PC game also.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

Of course, while this concept may appeal to me personally, it might well not be enough to attract enough customers to make printing this possible.

If you don't mind, I'd like to wish you sincere good luck with this project. Whether it appeals to me personally or not, I understand enough about the long road between concept & execution to figure anybody who is willing to give something like this a solid effort is worth pulling for to get that chance.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

If you don't mind, I'd like to wish you sincere good luck with this project. Whether it appeals to me personally or not, I understand enough about the long road between concept & execution to figure anybody who is willing to give something like this a solid effort is worth pulling for to get that chance.

Indeed - sincere good luck!

[CraigSca]

Probably won't play it either, but I decided to be a backer! I just love taking apart games to further my education on games and game theory and this is certainly one worth taking apart

Good luck, Jim!

[tarcone]

You need to get some videos up ASAP.
You need to tell the story behind. Not just with a written word.
You need to show the components up close. Even if they are just what you tested the game with.
And you need to show a play through. Maybe a quarter.

Ive noticed people on KS like stretch goals. Maybe add more teams as stretch goals. Or Better quality cards. Or better art work.

Good luck with this.

[tarcone]

Also, have you thought of adding more levels? Maybe adding 4 teams at $65 and giving 8 teams at $75 and 16 teams at $85. Give more options.
Im not real smart or creative, but I think you are. But limiting it to only 4 levels may not be the best way to go.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

Right, but would you agree that fathers getting their 14 year old kids hooked on tabletop games is an extremely small niche market? Far too small, in my opinion, to put any kind of uber-effort into publishing and investing in a new game.

Maybe my idea of this being successful is different than Jim's. I couldn't see kids wanting to grab this at Target, and I sincerely doubt you'd find this game on many X-mas lists to Santa, regardless of how big their Daddy's were into Strat-O games.

The market is bigger than you think. Things like Magic and other CCG's and Miniature gaming is huge for kids. Strategy board games are also pretty big (especially games like Settlers of Catan, Dominion, Carcassonne, Ticket to Ride and others), though probably a bit more so in Europe than in America where it is more of a niche. I personally love board and card games and much prefer them to video games at this point in my life (age 29).

The issue is that this game doesn't really appeal to this audience. Board and card games these days typically have much much better artwork than this and the cost to component ratio of FOF:TCG is awful compared to other card based games.

[tarcone]

Game is up at BGG on the KS page. People are already commenting that $55 is a steep price. And you have to pay $120 for all teams.

And a video comment appeared as well.

[Danny]

As an example, this game can be had for $20
1st & Goal Board Game | Board Games | Products | CoolStuffInc.com and already has 30 or so teams available.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Game is up at BGG on the KS page. People are already commenting that $55 is a steep price. And you have to pay $120 for all teams.

And a video comment appeared as well.

The cost is really steep. I am a frequent buyer of board game and a card based game like this one is usually MSRP 35-40 at the most.

[Danny]

On a more positive note, despite my critique, I do want to give Jim a +1 for getting his game to this point. Designing and developing a game is a ton of work and I bet this game will actually probably be pretty good based on his usual quality of design. FWIW, I'd have some interest in backing if it was a 25-30 dollar game.

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Also, have you thought of adding more levels? Maybe adding 4 teams at $65 and giving 8 teams at $75 and 16 teams at $85. Give more options.
Im not real smart or creative, but I think you are. But limiting it to only 4 levels may not be the best way to go.

Honestly, I don't think *increasing* the price point is going to help.

[Solecismic]

The price on kickstarter includes shipping. I'm providing a lot more cards than First and Ten, and those are expensive. Also, they've published, so a reseller can chop 33% off the MSRP. I can't comment on the quality of the components.

It's $99 for the game and all the teams, shipped.

Where's the discussion on BGG? I thought you had to publish before you had a game page.

[tarcone]

Not necessarily increasing the price point. Just adding more flexibility.
You get a few teams at $55. You get 32 teams at $120. Why not add levels where you can get a division, or 2 divisions. and then a conference.
I think more people would like the flexibility. And maybe a couple divisions at $65 would be more appealing then one division at $55. And a conference at $80 might be more appealing then a division at $55.

Maybe Im wrong. But I look at a lot of board game KS projects. Probably too many. And this is what I see.

[tarcone]

BGG

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklis...arter-projects

It is listed as an unpublished prototype. You are game 665 on page 27.

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by Danny

The cost is really steep. I am a frequent buyer of board game and a card based game like this one is usually MSRP 35-40 at the most.

This is MSRP $40, or at least that's what I based the kickstarter categories on. Also $12.50 most likely for each pack of 8 additional teams.

Since the card design has a different back and front, they are more expensive to produce.

[Danny]

Is the extra $15 just for shipping then? Usually games on kickstarter which sell for MSRP include shipping as part of that.

[Solecismic]

Yes, that's exactly what was quoted to me from the printer. I could probably do it myself for less, but then I'd have to add in the cost of getting it here, and a lot of time for packing and processing.

Maybe I should have gone with $45 or $50, shipped, but it would only change the number I have to sell to fund this - I don't think it's a good idea to produce the game without having the team cards available soon afterward, if not at the same time.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Game is up at BGG on the KS page. People are already commenting that $55 is a steep price. And you have to pay $120 for all teams.

And a video comment appeared as well.

link?

[Ben E Lou]

ah..n/m later in thread, I see.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

Thanks, Marc.

I hope "fluff art" isn't important for something like this. I was going for something clean and easily read. Admittedly I've spent far too much time working on these cards. And there really are too many of them (hundreds) to make individual designs feasible.

I think there's a middle ground between having the really great art we see in Magic, Dominion, the collectible card games, and the plain white tearsheets.

Not to be rude but, No. The hardcore board gamers, football fans, FOF fans are going to buy it because of its rudimentary, excel spreadhseet stylings however broadening the base requires the "sizzle".

Its the sizzle that will have the kid walking through the gaming store pick up the box, see a frickin' mack daddy LB player card that adds a bonus of "X" to a play that gets them to buy the game/pack. Arm veins exploding, helmet about to pop off his crazy big cranium and the QB he just hit spitting blood. That is what gets the card pack's wrapper shiny and why they'll shell out 3.99 for a pack of 8 cards.

Don't miss out on the fact that many many many people who play these games now like the fact that said card reflects, adds a bonus to the play, can only be used X times, turned sideways means he's concussed, breaks a QB's leg Theisman style, etc.

I love the spreadsheet but I also see what my son grabs walking down the toy aisle and tere is much much more money in sizzle than spreadsheet.

You can accomplish both.... meaningful gameplay and 8-15 impact cards that are drawn and artful. Shit, maybe a bunch of the peeps on here will lend a hand per position.

[DaddyTorgo]

You'd probably get a lot closer to funding with a video, but I guess you can't pull it off kickstarter until you get the video done? Also - to reduce the cost of printing the cards why not have a separate card for the formation? That way you could just have a small number of those to lay down and then the more numerous play cards would be cheaper, cutting down your cost.

[Buccaneer]

Having read the first set of psts, I will echo what Ben (and others) have said. Here's why I agree with them:

I just got an iPhone and was looking for games to play. I recalled that there was an iOOTP version and went looking for it. As soon as I read that it uses fictional historical rookie and limited historical career modes, I passed. It makes sense why there is not but while a graphical electronic sports sim in the palm of your hands would have been greatest thing in the world years ago, I can play much, much better electronic sports sims on my real computer instead.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Having read the first set of psts, I will echo what Ben (and others) have said. Here's why I agree with them:

I just got an iPhone and was looking for games to play. I recalled that there was an iOOTP version and went looking for it. As soon as I read that it uses fictional historical rookie and limited historical career modes, I passed. It makes sense why there is not but while a graphical electronic sports sim in the palm of your hands would have been greatest thing in the world years ago, I can play much, much better electronic sports sims on my real computer instead.

So I'm confused - what are you saying? Put it on iPhone?

I think if this general idea was on iPhone, with some graphical sizzle you could microtransaction this motherfucker and build in H2H play for people with friends/strangers and you'd be rolling in the dough.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

So I'm confused - what are you saying? Put it on iPhone?

I think if this general idea was on iPhone, with some graphical sizzle you could microtransaction this motherfucker and build in H2H play for people with friends/strangers and you'd be rolling in the dough.

I was thinking more of this audience that prefers full career mode and all of the bells and whistles that entail. Given the technology of iPhones (or whatever) that is not possible, comparatively. That was my example of iOOTP. Why play a really dumbed-down version of the game when I can have the real thing? However, video H2H in a social context (plus all of the microtransaction dollars - $0.99 if you want a play-action pass ) seems to be what would sell in today's market, not something that most would not have any concept of.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

I was thinking more of this audience that prefers full career mode and all of the bells and whistles that entail. Given the technology of iPhones (or whatever) that is not possible, comparatively. That was my example of iOOTP. Why play a really dumbed-down version of the game when I can have the real thing? However, video H2H in a social context (plus all of the microtransaction dollars - $0.99 if you want a play-action pass ) seems to be what would sell in today's market, not something that most would not have any concept of.

Yeah - you could microtransaction new plays, or microtransaction "effect" cards - that kind of thing.

Bazinga!

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

The tabletop gaming forums on Delphi are as good a focus group as any I think (and the fact that the niche is still active on Delphi probably says something in & of itself).

The majority seem to be solo gamers who have the occasional opportunity to play h2h against a live human. Otherwise there's a whole variety of systems/workarounds/house rules/etc that create ways to play ostensibly h2h games by yourself.

This!........I am one of the mysterious breed of sports board gamers. I started out like Ben and others playing strat o matic baseball and the like pre person al computers in the early mid 80s. I fell away from it after college and got plugged into sports computers sims like OOTP and FOF about 12 years ago. I am 42 and rediscovered sports table board games about 4 years ago giving up on almost all PC game not just sports in favor of board games.
I think I am more a rarity in this way and think it is because of being in IT management I won't to disconnect from computers in my free time.
It is absolutely true 90 percent of the board gamers are solo player folks and are not interested in the career play stuff lime here. I don't see this idea going very far without a solo aspect and seems to point to a complete lack of disconnect with the customer base for sports board games.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Holy cow, Jon. I just went over there. Ok, those forums are CRAZY active. That's....wow.

Yes I started a forum for sports board games there and within a month had over a 1500 members:

[Mota]

I recently bought both Strat-o-Matic Baseball and Hockey and after playing them the first thing I thought was how much easier it would be to play them on a computer.

I don't know, I play plenty of video games but almost no board games because my friends live far away and my wife has no interest in those types of games. I used to play a SOM Baseball 80 game season every year with 6 friends but that's a long time ago, those people moved to FOF and OOTP years ago.

[Swaggs]

Not my cup of tea (mostly because of time/location restraints -- if it were something I could play online against folks that I know or meet from here (for example), after my kid gets to sleep, I'd be all in), but I hope it works out well for you, Jim.

The Kickstarter concept is really intriguing to me -- I spent probably 45 minutes looking around at stuff. I noticed that they have raised over $500K to remake the original Leisure Suit Larry, which is awesome. Dead State (a zombie, survivor game some of us were tracking awhile ago) is also on there and looks to have exceeded its goal, as well. And then there are some interesting smaller things, like helping to fund a lunch truck business or helping artists complete studio albums. I'm hopeful this could spur renaissance in computer gaming.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by Galaril

Yes I started a forum for sports board games there and within a month had over a 1500 members:

Link?

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Link?

Sports Board Games for Fun Forums

[tarcone]

I think it would benefit posting the full set of rules. People like to "see" the game before buying.

[tarcone]

BGG has a press release thread. You may want to put your KS project in there.

[PadresFan104]

So yeah... I'm one of those guys that most of you don't get, and that's ok!! I really can't explain it myself, I just really really like playing sports board games.

I really want to like games like FOF, OOTP, etc, but they literally put me to sleep. I'm just pushing buttons with a detached feeling that I can't shake.

With board games though, I feel immersed in the world I'm creating or re-creating. Rolling the dice or flipping the FACs keeps me engaged, as does the manual scorekeeping and stats tracking. Playing games where the computer does all that for you is nice, but again, I just get bored with it really quickly. It may also have something to do with all of the Statis-Pro Baseball I played as a kid, and the feeling of nostalgia I get when I play these games.

I spend a ton of time on the Delphi forums (Hi Dan!), and I love reading about new games, as well as learning about classic games I haven't tried yet. Sports table-top games are great gaming niche (albeit small!) and it's a great compliment to my overall gaming hobby when I burn out on the latest XBOX360 game.

As for this particular kickstarter, I wish Jim the best of luck!!

Al

[WSUCougar]

Reminds me a bit of NFL Strategy from way back in the day. And I think a few decades ago this concept would have rocked. But today...I dunno.

In any case, best of luck with the project, Jim.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by PadresFan104

So yeah... I'm one of those guys that most of you don't get, and that's ok!! I really can't explain it myself, I just really really like playing sports board games.

I really want to like games like FOF, OOTP, etc, but they literally put me to sleep. I'm just pushing buttons with a detached feeling that I can't shake.

With board games though, I feel immersed in the world I'm creating or re-creating. Rolling the dice or flipping the FACs keeps me engaged, as does the manual scorekeeping and stats tracking. Playing games where the computer does all that for you is nice, but again, I just get bored with it really quickly. It may also have something to do with all of the Statis-Pro Baseball I played as a kid, and the feeling of nostalgia I get when I play these games.

I spend a ton of time on the Delphi forums (Hi Dan!), and I love reading about new games, as well as learning about classic games I haven't tried yet. Sports table-top games are great gaming niche (albeit small!) and it's a great compliment to my overall gaming hobby when I burn out on the latest XBOX360 game.

As for this particular kickstarter, I wish Jim the best of luck!!

Al

hey Al. Good post.

[PilotMan]

Jim, the only thing I am going to ask you is, why in God's green earth does your company not have a Facebook page?

[Solecismic]

It's just me. If I had a team behind me, social networking would be in someone's purview. Definitely not mine. I find I really don't have a lot to say to promote my products. I'd rather let people see what's out there and let them make their own decisions. What I do appeals to people who have a lot of imagination and don't need to be led. It will never sizzle or pop. I don't sizzle and pop, or even crackle a little. I care much more about replay value. I've always thought that, in time, customers will find me. My products are more evergreens, as the sales world terms them, than trendy and flashy. That's worked pretty well for me. It might not be an ideal paradigm for kickstarter-ing a completely new project, however.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by tarcone

I think it would benefit posting the full set of rules. People like to "see" the game before buying.

There's a link to the rules on the KS page.

[Ben E Lou]

Ummmm...wow.

Delphi Forums Login

[CraigSca]

Wow, yeah...when starting that thread I certainly didn't expect that kind of witch hunt.

[BYU 14]

Wow, somebody has an issue with Jim there

[Izulde]

Hmm. Phillies_80 over there is on that witchhunt.

Philliesfan980, who is in the Penalty Box, is viewing this thread.

Kind of makes you wonder, doesn't it?

[Logan]

I seem to recall a guy with "Phillies" and "80" in his handle taking shots at Jim here...