OT: The Joy of Parenting (or lack thereof)

[duckman]

Originally Posted by TargetPractice6

You also said it was "common sense." Regardless of whether it was an opinion or not I get the feeling you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to little kids.

That figure since he's a kid himself.

[Solecismic]

Craig,

It sounds like this isn't normal behavior. Tantrums are often the result of children feeling incapable of communicating their frustrations. By age five, they should be greatly reduced. Something in his brain is signalling to him that he's not connecting with you, but it doesn't sound like a rational signal in the examples you give.

It's good that you're going to an expert. I'd maybe try a different expert, if you're not making progress. Make sure, before you go, to document as thoroughly as possible what seems to trigger these episodes. Every detail will help the expert determine how to proceed.

With a very young son myself, what you describe is our biggest fear. So far, I think we're lucky in that he seems to be developing normally and can always be soothed quickly if he gets upset. Five is supposed to be a good age. They go off to school, and they don't hate you yet.

[psychedelicate-girl]

Wow, Craig, I hate to hear that you all are going through this rough time. There is a great message board here:
http://messageboards.ivillage.com/iv-psspirited
all about high spirited kids. There are a lot of members there. Maybe there is some advice there you can use.
Good luck!

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by Noop

No book can tell you how to live your life. Each person is different... if I was raising a child last thing I would do is read book from someone who doesn't know anything about your kid.

Someday you will be older and wiser. You might even realize that you don't know everything, and the knowledge in some book might come in handy.

[Godzilla Blitz]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

This doesn't sound like a case of autism to me because this kid is trying to play basketball with other kids. He is trying to interact with other kids (even if it is inappropriately at times). It sounds like he is initiating and responding to joint attention.

I just wanted to comment quickly on this. My understanding is that at earlier ages autism can result in kids not interacting with other kids, just like you mention. However, at later ages (like 5), it often doesn't result in kids not interacting with other kids, but interacting poorly: they don't understand the basics of social interaction, and haven't learned a lot of the subtle behaviors we pick up as we grow up. I've had it explained to me along the lines that an autistic kid will treat a rock the same way he treats another person. His/her world simply lacks much of the social/human nuance to interacting with other people. Overactiveness, aggression towards others, severe tantrums, and a lack of common sense are classic behavioral signs typical in children with autism. These behaviors of course need to be coupled with many other symptoms to lead to a diagnosis of autism, but they are nevertheless consistent with such a diagnosis.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

...Graham's "trick" lately is to make changing the diaper a chore by "shutting the door" (closing his legs) as I try to put on the diaper. the other day when he was doing it, without thinking, I blurted out "do you want a swat?". unfortunately, his answer was "YES!"...

My daughter, now four, is fairly difficult to punish. Well to some degree the problem is similar to what JonIMG described. It is difficult to identify what exactly she will consider punishment. I usually only threaten spanking now, and that rarely. I used to do it more often. It was punishment number one. If that didn't work, I'd move down to number two. It only took me a year or three to realize that it was a bad approach.

When she was not quite three, a friend told me he punished his daughter(almost 5 then) by making her stand in the corner. He suggested we try it with Kerry. One day Kerry walked up and smacked our TV screen hard by running up to it and throwing her body and hands into it. It is a 45" projection unit, and while I was pleasantly surprised that she didn't damage it, I decided to try the "corner" trick. I took her aside, and explained what it was she had done wrong, and made her stand in the corner. After I let her out of the corner, she ran at the TV, smacked it. This time with one hand. She then turned around, and ran straight back to stand in the corner. Once there, she looked over her shoulder and grinned at me.

As for Craigsca, I don't really have any advice, other than to tell you you are doing the most important stuff you can by loving him, and trying to get him help. Since our four month old was born, Kerry seems to become more and more froward every day. My wife and I just keep trying different approaches, and while that makes us a little inconsitent, I think we are making a dent in her behavior. So keep working at it, and Best of luck to ya.

[haji1]

With four kids ranging from 8 years to 8 months I feel for you. Here are some of my random thoughts although my wife is awesome with our kids and would be much more helpful.

1. We do spank our children, but selectively. that way they know you mean business. Also we do not do it out of pure anger, but when we want our kids attention and to know we mean business. Also, when I do spank it is hard, otherwise will do nothing but anger them more.

2. I really believe in boys will be boys and Dr. James Dobson bringing up boys is a fantastic book we use as our parenting bible. That being said we have had the most problems with our three year old daughter. She is a fighter and throws absloutley terrible tantrums. Our boys have been very laid back, loving, and fairly easy to raise. She also loves to play mom and dad against each other. One thing we have found is that both mom and dad have to be on the same page. Not one punishing and the other protecting or soothing. Hopefully you and your wife take equal share in disciplining your childs behavior.

3. School can be a great help. Many times children with problems behaving at home do very well at school in a different enviroment. Some parents have found it helpful to find out what works for the teachers at school and try to implement variations of the same thing at home. Don't warn your teachers about your son though. That way they will treat him like any other child instead of looking for things which can change how the treat hime, expecting him to be a problem.

4. How often does he interact with his peers. Many times this can help children learn "appropriate" behavior. They see how others act and behave, especially around their (the other children's) parents and can learn what appropriate behavior is in many situations. Sometimes they just don't know any better because they have only been in their own family situation and do not see how other children react in the same situation. Also some times children are better at quelling others misbehavior. "Through a tantrum, I won't play with you. Behave and I will." They can learn that if they misbehave others will not want to be around them and may adjust thier behavior accordingly. They often can let another child know, "That is not nice" or "why are you acting that way" and cause the child to think about it differently rather than a parent telling them they are naughty once again.

5. Lastly, he could very well be seeking attention in the only way he know how. I know this has happened with our daughter. With four children sometimes they can get lost in the shuffle and she would act out just so mom and da would pay attention to her. Is he possibly doing this because he know that when he acts this way he has your full attention and found that this works to get it? Two thing we have done. One is really giving positive attention to positive behavior. At times even overdoing it. Go poopy in the potty, hell let's all go out to dinner. Shared with your brother, lets go to the store and get a treat. Not always, but she at least knows the potential is there. Behave terribly we will correct it, but we do not let it linger. And always the next good thing she does we get very excited over to let her know we are not big meanies and to put the problem behavior behind.

Secondly, we make sure we have one on one time with each of our children at least once a day. It takes a lot of work and planning, but we think it is important. Just dad and John or Jake or Kit time. It has really helped us bond to each of our children more. We get to know each one more personally and it helps them to feel very special for that time. Not just all of us together but me and Kit and nothing else matters. This way they get the individual attention that they crave. They get our full attention. It could be coloring, playing a game, or just running out to get some nails or dropping off some mail.

One thing I thought when I read your post was "been there done that" at various times through our children's lives. Try not to get frustrated, this is a part of raising a child. Just keep fighting the good fight like you have been and trying to solve the problem. I would caution just "giving up" and hoping he grows out of it. The longer things are left to linger, the harder they are to correct in the long run. Deal with it now while he is still finding out who he is and developing the personality he will have for his lifetime.

Each child is different and these are just some thoughts as to what we did. I do think you are doing many of the right things, just hang in there.

[Marc Vaughan]

I've got three kids (Haley 10, Jake 5, Keegan - 20 months) - I'm a sucker for punishment

Each of my kids if very different and responds in different ways to the same situation, no one can really tell you how to parent because of this - generally speaking I've found only a few 'norms' which help with 'managing' my brood:

(1) Attention, all kids love attention and one on ones
(2) Distraction, especially at an early age, if they throw a wobbly then ignore it and change the subject - kids under 8 tend to be easy to manipulate, you can see a temper tantrum coming over him wanting sweets - ask if he wants to play game 'x' with you ... if its something he likes then there's a good chance his brain will switch over to that and forget all about the sweets.
(3) Don't get riled, I find that because I'm fairly laid back my kids won't bother screaming and shouting with me - they know I'll sit there and wait for them to calm down before talking to them (with prompts of 'When you've calmed down we'll discuss this' generally thrown in).
(4) Routine, this has generally helped - although less with some of the kids than others.
(5) Ignoring them if they're misbehaving, Haley went through a stage of throwing temper tantrums in public when she was around 5 - it stopped abruptly when I took her outside of a Pizza Hut screaming at the top of her lungs, we stood on the sidewalk for 10 minutes with her in my arms kicking and screaming while I stood there refusing to look embaressed. After 10 minutes she asked "why everyone is staring at us" and I told her simply that they thought she was acting like a wally ... after that she got rather embaressed calmed down and asked to go back inside, she hasn't thrown a public wobbly since.
NB. It helps if you're immune to embarressment, my kids know NOTHING can embaress me and that I have a warped sense of humour, my favourite way of keeping Haley on the straight and narrow at the moment if she starts acting a brat while I'm walking to school is to ask her sweetly "Would you like it if I pick you up in my arms and carry you cradled like a baby into the playground before giving you a kiss goodbye" ... she's never called me on it (and I don't know if I'd actually do it) and normally snaps into line instantly.
(6) Accept if you're playing games with them its 'their' game and not yours, I found this hard initially as I used to play 'cars' for example in a very different way to Jake - but hey he's the kid not me, roll with it.

If you think any of the above makes sense and you haven't tried it then give it a go, if not then feel free to ignore them - as I said at the start every kids different and only their parent really knows how they tick.

The hardest age is the around 2-3 mark imho, they're big enough to get into trouble, but small enough that you can't effectively reason with them.

It also gets harder the more you have, when you've one its fairly 'easy' as the parents outnumber the kids so giving them 1 on 1 is easy, when you've two you tend to find yourself passing them between yourselves (especially if there's an age gap and they have very different interests) ... when there's 3 its mayhem as they can get fairly jealous because its impossible for all of them to have 1 on 1 at once.

That being said, being a parent is wonderful and my kids bring me a huge amount of pleasure - I wouldn't swap them for anything.

One of the hardest things for me to come to terms with is Haley becoming increasingly independant now she's 10, although it is fairly cool that both her and Jake are now better at 'twitch' action games than I am - its great to have people on tap who can get me through the hard bits

PS. Do your best to ignore any dirty looks you get if your kids are acting up while you're out and about, most people who aren't tolerant haven't been parents themselves (or have forgotten what its like) - just do the best you can.
Finally if your kid is tall for his age then peoples reactions are generally harsher imho - for instance Keegan is only 20 months old and is around the heght and build of a 3-4 year old (hey I'm 6'6'' myself) - this means most people who don't know him think he's acting very very immature and brattish, he isn't - he's just a normal 20 month old. He walks, can talk a little (when he wants to) and generally heads towards trouble as fast as his little legs can take him, it doesn't help that he's a trainee escapeologist and can get out of any Pram harness in under 5 seconds should your attention wander off him.

[CraigSca]

Thanks all, all very good advice.

Growing up, I can remember seeing other kid's behavior and wondering "how the heck can their parents let them get away with that?" Well, one thing we have learned is that all kids are vastly different. In the whole "nature vs. nurture" argument, I believe the child is born with who he is. The parents can then gently guide this being to where they want him/her to be, but a great majority of the child's personality is there from day one.

As far as behavior modification, we've tried a great many strategies. Full contact hugging when he's freaking out (including the "I love you"s when he says he hates us), ignoring the tantrums, counting to 3, time outs, etc. Recently we've come up with a token system. If he does something good (not fighting with sister, helping Mom and Dad, etc.) he receives a token. Eventually, he can trade in these tokens for something nice (a new pair of shoes, a game). He's currently working on getting a new Leap Pad (as he broke his other one). Another strategy we're using is giving him his own "alone" place as well as a grab bag of activities for him to pick (they're written on a piece of paper) when he's in the early stages of "losing it". Some of the activities work (for some reason, he loved running around the house 5 times - I can imagine what the neighbors think ) others do not (take 10 deep breaths). The one's that work make him forget what he was so angry about and stay in the bag. The one's that don't are removed. I just wish he could start to develop some strategies on his own to dispell his anger.

Every strategy pretty much works to a certain degree, but it's a fulltime job trying to keep a semblance of peace in the house and it's very easy to feel defeated and discouraged. But, you get up the next day and start again. Hey, sometimes there are even good days .

Noop - I agree from your point of view that your advice seems tried and true. One thing I can tell you from actually BEING a parent - sometimes things aren't as simple as they seem. The child is just different, and beating the heck out of him to show him who's boss from day one would have just alienated him more so than he is.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

My daughter, now four, is fairly difficult to punish. Well to some degree the problem is similar to what JonIMG described. It is difficult to identify what exactly she will consider punishment. I usually only threaten spanking now, and that rarely. I used to do it more often. It was punishment number one. If that didn't work, I'd move down to number two. It only took me a year or three to realize that it was a bad approach.

When she was not quite three, a friend told me he punished his daughter(almost 5 then) by making her stand in the corner. He suggested we try it with Kerry. One day Kerry walked up and smacked our TV screen hard by running up to it and throwing her body and hands into it. It is a 45" projection unit, and while I was pleasantly surprised that she didn't damage it, I decided to try the "corner" trick. I took her aside, and explained what it was she had done wrong, and made her stand in the corner. After I let her out of the corner, she ran at the TV, smacked it. This time with one hand. She then turned around, and ran straight back to stand in the corner. Once there, she looked over her shoulder and grinned at me.

Oh man, I know all about that. I rarely spank my daughter, but when I do, I do it enough to get her attention, not hurt her, of course. And her reaction, every time, is "That didn't hurt."

We have a timeout chair in her room that we make her sit on when she gets in trouble, and my wife sets the timer on the microwave for 2-5 minutes (depending on the severity of what's she's being punished for), so that she knows when she hears the beeping that she can come out. And of course, we check to make sure she's sitting in the chair, not playing with anything, etc., or we add time. That seems to work pretty well.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

Thanks all, all very good advice.

Growing up, I can remember seeing other kid's behavior and wondering "how the heck can their parents let them get away with that?" Well, one thing we have learned is that all kids are vastly different. In the whole "nature vs. nurture" argument, I believe the child is born with who he is. The parents can then gently guide this being to where they want him/her to be, but a great majority of the child's personality is there from day one.

As far as behavior modification, we've tried a great many strategies. Full contact hugging when he's freaking out (including the "I love you"s when he says he hates us), ignoring the tantrums, counting to 3, time outs, etc. Recently we've come up with a token system. If he does something good (not fighting with sister, helping Mom and Dad, etc.) he receives a token. Eventually, he can trade in these tokens for something nice (a new pair of shoes, a game). He's currently working on getting a new Leap Pad (as he broke his other one). Another strategy we're using is giving him his own "alone" place as well as a grab bag of activities for him to pick (they're written on a piece of paper) when he's in the early stages of "losing it". Some of the activities work (for some reason, he loved running around the house 5 times - I can imagine what the neighbors think ) others do not (take 10 deep breaths). The one's that work make him forget what he was so angry about and stay in the bag. The one's that don't are removed. I just wish he could start to develop some strategies on his own to dispell his anger.

Every strategy pretty much works to a certain degree, but it's a fulltime job trying to keep a semblance of peace in the house and it's very easy to feel defeated and discouraged. But, you get up the next day and start again. Hey, sometimes there are even good days .

Noop - I agree from your point of view that your advice seems tried and true. One thing I can tell you from actually BEING a parent - sometimes things aren't as simple as they seem. The child is just different, and beating the heck out of him to show him who's boss from day one would have just alienated him more so than he is.

It sounds like you are all trying all of the "right things." Good luck with this difficult child, and hopefully he will not always remain difficult.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

beating the heck out of him to show him who's boss from day one would have just alienated him more so than he is.

Sounds like you never tried, so you really don't know how this would have worked.

I get the impression that you are against this time of punishment, but it sounds like this kid really needs a good whuppin'

Like all adults with no children, I am of course, an expert on the topic.

I wish you luck connecting with the boy.

[CraigSca]

I understand what you are saying, Samdari. However, from my own experience in the times where I have struck him it solved nothing. There was no "Okay, okay, I won't do it again!" The behavior we were trying to avoid continued (sometimes within seconds), but now we had the added issue of a child who is frantic, out of control and now screaming at the top of his lungs that we're evil, etc. In a sense, the bad behavior was thrown back at us, and the original point that was trying to be made was lost. All focus was on the slap on the rear-end, and not the bad behavior that began the whole process.

I gotta tell ya, if a mere slap on the butt worked, I'd be doing it.

Now...with my daughter...it's a different story. On the rare occasions that we feel a slap on the butt is in order, after teh receives the punishement she immediately comes crying over to us saying how sorry she is. With her, she understands bad behavior = bad consequences. With him, I feel he understands a little, but still cannot control his own compulsive behavior -- even with the threat of physical punishment.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

I understand what you are saying, Samdari. However, from my own experience in the times where I have struck him it solved nothing. There was no "Okay, okay, I won't do it again!" The behavior we were trying to avoid continued (sometimes within seconds), but now we had the added issue of a child who is frantic, out of control and now screaming at the top of his lungs that we're evil, etc. In a sense, the bad behavior was thrown back at us, and the original point that was trying to be made was lost. All focus was on the slap on the rear-end, and not the bad behavior that began the whole process.

I gotta tell ya, if a mere slap on the butt worked, I'd be doing it.

Now...with my daughter...it's a different story. On the rare occasions that we feel a slap on the butt is in order, after teh receives the punishement she immediately comes crying over to us saying how sorry she is. With her, she understands bad behavior = bad consequences. With him, I feel he understands a little, but still cannot control his own compulsive behavior -- even with the threat of physical punishment.

I was half-joking Craig. I think giving someone advice on how to raise their child is presumptuous, especially someone like me who is, to this point, childless. I am filled with sympathy at hearing your story, and want to emphasize the "I wish you luck" part of my post rather than the "you should beat your child" part.

I do happen to believe that physical punishment is effective, especially if it is more than a simple "smack on the butt" and actually hurts. But - more than I believe that, I believe in the idea that every child is different, and every parent is different, and you need to find a way that works for both you and the child.

Of course, I hate you, as my wife is 7 months pregnant with #1 after a loss last fall, and youo have given me yet another thing to worry about, as if being terrified both about not having this child, and actually having this child were not enough.

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by Samdari

Of course, I hate you, as my wife is 7 months pregnant with #1 after a loss last fall, and youo have given me yet another thing to worry about, as if being terrified both about not having this child, and actually having this child were not enough.

Oops, sorry Samdari - I didn't read the half-joking part. One thing I will tell you - the only thing you really have to worry about is the child's health. Even with all the daily crap we face, I would do it all over again. Here's hoping you have an easier time with your first. I wish you, your wife and your future bundle of joy the best of health and happiness.

[hhiipp]

Originally Posted by Samdari
Of course, I hate you, as my wife is 7 months pregnant with #1 after a loss last fall, and youo have given me yet another thing to worry about, as if being terrified both about not having this child, and actually having this child were not enough.

I gotta agree with this part, my wife is right around the 5 month mark, as all new parents know the list of things to worry about is half a mile long and this is just another one to tack in there. If I go off the deepend we can all thank Craig

Also I got a good laugh out of the guy whose kid took a dump in the sump pump, classic stuff there.

[oliegirl]

With him, I feel he understands a little, but still cannot control his own compulsive behavior -- even with the threat of physical punishment.

I think this is something really important...that you realize he may not be doing it intentionally and it might be something he can't control right now. My son has a horrible temper (he gets it from me), and we are working on how to control it, mainly to think before he acts and to "vent" without kicking or punching. He has taken to "grunting", which I am ok with, and I know from talking to him that he is usually mad at himself and he has gotten better about it.

It sounds to me like you are doing everything right as a parent. Good luck!

[Godzilla Blitz]

Originally Posted by haji1

3. School can be a great help. Many times children with problems behaving at home do very well at school in a different enviroment. Some parents have found it helpful to find out what works for the teachers at school and try to implement variations of the same thing at home. Don't warn your teachers about your son though. That way they will treat him like any other child instead of looking for things which can change how the treat hime, expecting him to be a problem.

4. How often does he interact with his peers. Many times this can help children learn "appropriate" behavior. They see how others act and behave, especially around their (the other children's) parents and can learn what appropriate behavior is in many situations. Sometimes they just don't know any better because they have only been in their own family situation and do not see how other children react in the same situation. Also some times children are better at quelling others misbehavior. "Through a tantrum, I won't play with you. Behave and I will." They can learn that if they misbehave others will not want to be around them and may adjust thier behavior accordingly. They often can let another child know, "That is not nice" or "why are you acting that way" and cause the child to think about it differently rather than a parent telling them they are naughty once again.

5. Lastly, he could very well be seeking attention in the only way he know how. I know this has happened with our daughter. With four children sometimes they can get lost in the shuffle and she would act out just so mom and da would pay attention to her. Is he possibly doing this because he know that when he acts this way he has your full attention and found that this works to get it? Two thing we have done. One is really giving positive attention to positive behavior. At times even overdoing it. Go poopy in the potty, hell let's all go out to dinner. Shared with your brother, lets go to the store and get a treat. Not always, but she at least knows the potential is there. Behave terribly we will correct it, but we do not let it linger. And always the next good thing she does we get very excited over to let her know we are not big meanies and to put the problem behavior behind.

Secondly, we make sure we have one on one time with each of our children at least once a day. It takes a lot of work and planning, but we think it is important. Just dad and John or Jake or Kit time. It has really helped us bond to each of our children more. We get to know each one more personally and it helps them to feel very special for that time. Not just all of us together but me and Kit and nothing else matters. This way they get the individual attention that they crave. They get our full attention. It could be coloring, playing a game, or just running out to get some nails or dropping off some mail.

One thing I thought when I read your post was "been there done that" at various times through our children's lives. Try not to get frustrated, this is a part of raising a child. Just keep fighting the good fight like you have been and trying to solve the problem. I would caution just "giving up" and hoping he grows out of it. The longer things are left to linger, the harder they are to correct in the long run. Deal with it now while he is still finding out who he is and developing the personality he will have for his lifetime.

Each child is different and these are just some thoughts as to what we did. I do think you are doing many of the right things, just hang in there.

Great post! I think this stuff and Marc's post as well are right on the money. Great advice in there.

I think #5 above is especially helpful. Three months after our daughter was born, our son turned into a devil: throwing stuff, tantrums, yelling inside the house, extremely sensitive and moody. We went through a rebellient bedtime ritual similar to the one Craig described. At first we made the mistake of interacting with the bad behavior and prolonging the correction or punishment, which of course only served to reinforce the behavior. Things got much better when we used quick methods (time outs, ignoring, redirection to positive behavior). We also had to really work to remind ourselves to reinforce the good behavior so that our son relearned that the best way to get interaction with us was to do something good.

I would add to what haj1 and Marc said that it's critical to address your son's bad behavior in a way that doesn't label him as being a bad person. Most parents know this, of course, but it still can be hard to do when you see consistently bad behavior. Your kids will fulfill the labels you put on them. All I can remember hearing from my mom about the state of my room when I was a kid was "Why don't you clean up your room? You never clean up your room. Your room is always such a mess." Of course, with statements like that, my room was always a mess. I never had a chance.

"You don't care about others." is a labelling statement. "You didn't show much care for your sister right now." hits the action. "You make me so angry!" is another one that easily works into interactions with kids. "What you did now has made me angry." is much better, and gets at the behavior but not the kid himself. Labelling reduces the potential for change and I believe is one of the most damaging things parents can do to kids. I see high school students who will have to struggle with stuff for years because of the labels their parents have stuck on them during the first 18 years of their lives. Labels make us comfortable because they tend to put order on our environment and personalities, but negative ones can be devastating. Along these lines, I'd be really careful to let your son know that he is loved and accepted but his actions at times are not.

Lastly...damn it, there was one more thing I wanted to add, but now it's gone. I know I'll remember it as soon as I hit the "submit" button.

[Ajaxab]

Anyone else find it interesting just how many people in this thread have advocated some form of physical punishment for misbehaving children? I am not a parent (yet), but the media sure presents physical punishment as the devil's plan for parenting. I don't have a problem with it personally and will defintely spank my child under the right circumstances that some of you have advocated, but 'society' (that vague abstraction) sure leaves me with the impression that I should never lay a hand on my child. Thanks for all of your input.

[Godzilla Blitz]

I have no problem with mild physical punishment, and I know I would not have said that before I had kids.

I haven't used it yet on our kids, but I would be lying if I said I hadn't been tempted to. I do tend to think of such action as violent, and counterproductive to the idea of modeling behavior that shows my kids that we can solve our problems with words and without resort to yelling or hitting, but there surely have been times when I want to give my son a firm whack on the butt to see if that will get my message across.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by TargetPractice6

You also said it was "common sense." Regardless of whether it was an opinion or not I get the feeling you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to little kids.

Didn't i say it was my opinion. I never said I have actual proof other then common sense and observation. Now either accept it or leave it alone I won't sit here and repeat myself over and over for you.

Duckman - Because of my age I am not fit to have an opinion on anything? Children should be seen and not heard right?

Glengoyne - I fail to grasp how a book can tell you anything about your life. It may show you how to cook, how to build a model plane but not how to deal with unique children or people. Maybe I am just a dumb ass like has been stated so many times before.

CraigSca - I am sorry for jumping off topic. I will no longer post off topic in this thread. I have nothing else to add...

[duckman]

Originally Posted by Noop

Duckman - Because of my age I am not fit to have an opinion on anything? Children should be seen and not heard right?

That's not what I was saying. Because of your age (16?), you have limited knowledge of how to correctly deal with these type of children. As a matter of fact, you don't have any children so that makes it even more unlikely that you have the correct skills to deal with raising children.

Matt is seven now and had some problems with discipline in the past. I was out of state during his first few years while I served in the Air Force. When I was able to move back, it was a difficult because I had to rebuild a relationship that was interrupted. He was spoiled by his mom's family and needed a good spanking on occasion (maybe a dozen times since I've been home). However, I didn't do it all the time so it was very effective. Because of that, he is a well behaved boy.

On the "children should be seen and not heard" line, I do believe in it to an extent.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by duckman

That's not what I was saying. Because of your age (16?), you have limited knowledge of how to correctly deal with these type of children. As a matter of fact, you don't have any children so that makes it even more unlikely that you have the correct skills to deal with raising children.

Matt is seven now and had some problems with discipline in the past. I was out of state during his first few years while I served in the Air Force. When I was able to move back, it was a difficult because I had to rebuild a relationship that was interrupted. He was spoiled by his mom's family and needed a good spanking on occasion (maybe a dozen times since I've been home). However, I didn't do it all the time so it was very effective. Because of that, he is a well behaved boy.

On the "children should be seen and not heard" line, I do believe in it to an extent.

Fair enough. I disagree with the last statement. But fair enough....

[condors]

i want to offer a view from the child's point of view

I was without a doubt a problem child

my mother takes me to the store i didn't want to go so i start walking home and run away when she would try to pick me up (although we would be 10 miles from home)

I would get punished, the belt, time-outs it didn't matter

I was sent off to live with serveral different relatives didn't change a single thing

My father thought boxing may be a good outlet for me in fact he was a boxer and i was in a boxing ring before kindergarden. It allowed me to beat up more and bigger kids was all that changed.

I honestly cared deeply for my family and friends but most of them don't care for me now.(i grew up hating all the people that beat the crap out of me and felt betrayed by them)

Drugs didn't work for me and i tried more than i care to remember. There was one i never had any "outbursts" of any kind but i also slept 12 hours a day or in the summer for me to sleep for 40+ hours straight then only getting up to eat or use the bathroom.

Anyways i am not going to say i am "normal" now but i can pass for normal.

My brother and sister are realtivly normal and i am the youngest. This is not my parents fault. I am not going to say its my fault directly cause i started running away from home when i was 2.(my sister tells me this i don't recall back that far)

Anyways don't forget to show your kid love every day my father may beat the hell out me but he always came into my bedroom later and told me how much he loved me and tommorrow is a new day and maybe we will get it right.
I still have bad feelings towards my mother but i have nothing but love for my father.

no matter what the child says his mother and father and sister are the most important things in his life he just may not realise it for a very long time

[duckman]

That's an excellent post, condors.

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by condors

i want to offer a view from the child's point of view

I was without a doubt a problem child

my mother takes me to the store i didn't want to go so i start walking home and run away when she would try to pick me up (although we would be 10 miles from home)

I would get punished, the belt, time-outs it didn't matter

I was sent off to live with serveral different relatives didn't change a single thing

My father thought boxing may be a good outlet for me in fact he was a boxer and i was in a boxing ring before kindergarden. It allowed me to beat up more and bigger kids was all that changed.

I honestly cared deeply for my family and friends but most of them don't care for me now.(i grew up hating all the people that beat the crap out of me and felt betrayed by them)

Drugs didn't work for me and i tried more than i care to remember. There was one i never had any "outbursts" of any kind but i also slept 12 hours a day or in the summer for me to sleep for 40+ hours straight then only getting up to eat or use the bathroom.

Anyways i am not going to say i am "normal" now but i can pass for normal.

My brother and sister are realtivly normal and i am the youngest. This is not my parents fault. I am not going to say its my fault directly cause i started running away from home when i was 2.(my sister tells me this i don't recall back that far)

Anyways don't forget to show your kid love every day my father may beat the hell out me but he always came into my bedroom later and told me how much he loved me and tommorrow is a new day and maybe we will get it right.
I still have bad feelings towards my mother but i have nothing but love for my father.

no matter what the child says his mother and father and sister are the most important things in his life he just may not realise it for a very long time

Well said.

[CraigSca]

Great post, Condors. My wife and I talk about this all the time...he's just a kid, and he's not intentionally being this difficult (we hope). Thanks for the perspective.

[clintl]

As a substitute teacher, I've been around large groups of kids that age on a number of occasions in the last year (including yesterday). Based on what I've seen, I think the kind of violent behavior you're describing is not normal. I think there's more going on than the "boys will be boys" explanation. I have seen very few kids do the kinds of things you are describing in the classroom. In fact, one kid who did sort of act that way (a first grader who had got in a lot of fights and whose behavior could get worse with punishment) spooked me out the first time I subbed in his class. Fortunately, about five months later, I subbed in the same class, and he seemed to be doing a lot better.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by clintl

... spooked me out the first time I subbed in his class.

Totally off the subject, but ... something I saw as a substitute teacher more than a decade ago still ranks high on the list of "most frightening things I've ever seen". Perhaps at the top of that list even.

[TargetPractice6]

Originally Posted by Noop

Didn't i say it was my opinion. I never said I have actual proof other then common sense and observation. Now either accept it or leave it alone I won't sit here and repeat myself over and over for you

Yes you did say it was your opinion. Over and over. I get that it was your opinion so you don't have to repeat it again. But you don't seem to know anything to derive your opinions from. Understand?

Originally Posted by Noop

Glengoyne - I fail to grasp how a book can tell you anything about your life. It may show you how to cook, how to build a model plane but not how to deal with unique children or people. Maybe I am just a dumb ass like has been stated so many times before.

The idea of a book in this case isn't to follow step-by-step instructions on rising a child. Books are generally written by knowledgeable people in the field who can provide suggestions on how to raise a child. As you would say, "They are just his opinions." However, wouldn't you admit that his opinion may be worth a bit more than yours? That's what I was getting at.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by TargetPractice6

Yes you did say it was your opinion. Over and over. I get that it was your opinion so you don't have to repeat it again. But you don't seem to know anything to derive your opinions from. Understand?

The idea of a book in this case isn't to follow step-by-step instructions on rising a child. Books are generally written by knowledgeable people in the field who can provide suggestions on how to raise a child. As you would say, "They are just his opinions." However, wouldn't you admit that his opinion may be worth a bit more than yours? That's what I was getting at.

Get off my nutts.

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by Noop

Get off my nutts.

Whoa... easy, Noop... don't wanna wear out the new catchphrase too quickly there... I'd let it simmer for a bit, then maybe wait until a good opportunity arises around the middle of next week to bust it out again. Otherwise, "Get off my nutts" will be just like one of those boy-band songs that they play 8.3 billion times on the radio in a single weekend just to make it a hit amongst easily manipulated, weak-minded 13 year old girls with too much disposable income to know any better than to make it a platinum album in a week, all the while alienating everyone else who'd rather hear real music.

[korme]

you shoudl have left get off my nutts. i got a laugh out of it.

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by Noop

Changed because I was wrong... fair enough. Frank I didn't know it was a cool thing to say around these parts...

Dude... it's ok... it's YOUR catchphrase... I'm just saying it's got potential... play it right, and you'll be the author of the witty inside joke around here... sort of like "PEOPLE LOST POSTS!!!"

[CraigSca]

Just an update....

our child entered kindergarten a couple of weeks ago and we had an incident on the bus within a few days. Apparently he and a kid were play-fighting and it spiraled out of control, ending in my child biting the other.

So...we've decided to see a neurologist, have made an appointment with a local hospital's behavioral center as well as scheduled a psychological profile through our school.

After doing more research, my wife and I are leaning to Asperger's Syndrome as a possible diagnosis. Asperger's is either a lesser form of autism or completely unrelated, depending on who you believe. Doing this research really makes you understand how very little we know about ourselves and how we work.

I'll keep ya'll up to date, but my wife and I are really hoping we can finally target something and have a plan of action.

Thanks,

Craig

[duckman]

Thanks for the update, Craig. Good luck.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Totally off the subject, but ... something I saw as a substitute teacher more than a decade ago still ranks high on the list of "most frightening things I've ever seen". Perhaps at the top of that list even.

I'm suprised no one has asked for JIMG to elaborate on this yet.


And, good luck Craig, I imagine having a firm diagnosis and knowing what you can or can't do would bring great peace of mind, hopefully things turn out well and you guys can make some progress.

[SoxWin]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

my wife says my mother in law used to break wooden spoons when the kids got her angry. used to snap them against the counter or something. I guess they went through quite a few of them...

My mum snapped them on me a few times. There couldn't have been much funnier for one of our old neighbours then the site of me hauling ass down the road with her charging after me waving a spoon.

[Glengoyne]

Best of Luck Craig



Also,
Someone may need to loosen GB's collar, his head may be swelling with the possibility of a diagnosis of 'mild-autism'.

[Solecismic]

Craig,

If it turns out you're headed toward that family of diagnoses, there are many books that can help. One in particular: Too Loud, Too Bright, Too Fast, Too Tight: What to Do If You Are Sensory Defensive in an Overstimulating World, by Sharon Heller.

This is written from the adult's perspective, but it may help you understand why your son reacts the way he does to certain stimuli.

The drugs that help with many kid problems do nothing for sensory defensiveness. And since so little is really known, you need to be more of an advocate for your child and find specialists with more experience

[Draft Dodger]

good luck, Craig

[Glengoyne]

Aspergers made the front page of our local paper, the Fresno Bee, today. A fifteen year old with Aspergers is being charged in assault for shoving a teacher. Apparently he had an arrangement established with the school that when he became agitated he could go see his Special Ed teacher or call home. A substitute delivered him to the Special Ed teacher, who already had a class in session. He said he wanted to call home, and she told him to wait a few times. He then walked up and shoved her from behind. According to him, he was tapping her on the shoulder to get her attention to ask to call home again. From there is spiraled out of control badly, she locked him in a small room, and blockaded the door with a chair, while she called for help from the office. He went ballistic until someone came from the office to calm the situation down.

The Special Ed teacher filed a police report, as is required when a student attacks school personel. The problem here is that the judge and prosecutors don't consider his diagnosis to be a mitigating condition, at this time.

Not sure why I am posting this. It really isn't a positive story of hope, but it does let you know that there are still a lot of folks who don't understand your boy's condition.

Again, Best of Luck Craig

[CraigSca]

Just an update for everyone...

We took our son to the local children's hospital and had him diagnosed by their team of psychiatrists. Surprisingly, their diagnosis was based on only a 2-hour session with us, a myriad of questionnaires given to us and one given to his teacher. After two weeks, we were invited back so they could tell us what they thought. We were completely ready for an Asperger's Syndrome spectrum dx, but not the one they gave us. After we exchanged pleasantries, we sat down and they explained to us that, although they did see some Asperger's tendencies, their diagnosis was Child-onset Conduct Disorder. Of course, I had never heard of such a thing, so my original question was - "what does that mean?" The psychiatrist said (and I quote), "These children don't grow up to be doctors or lawyers, they grow up to be incarcerated." They then recommended therapy and anti-psychotic drugs. We were absolutely incredulous. Sure, we know our son is odd sometimes and has some aggressive tendencies, but they seem more borne out of frustration rather than an innate need to hurt things or people (children with conduct disorder tend to hurt animals and then eventually people, do poor in school, etc). We asked them...how can something like this happen - is it something they're born with? The psychiatrist said 99% of the time children with conduct disorder are the victims of severe abuse, neglect, drug abuse, etc. Of course, our next question is - "well then, how can you explain this diagnosis - you KNOW we're not like that?!" (they had also commented that children that have conduct disorder are not voluntarily brought for psychiatric eval, they're usually brought by the courts or child services) - they said they were just as confused why this would occur.

After doing more research, we decided this diagnosis did not fit our child at all. After presenting more evidence to the psychiatrists, they agreed to "bring it down a level" to PDD (I apologize, the non-acronym version of this escapes me now). However, we were thoroughly disgusted - we felt that they glossed over a number of issues we presented to them and pigeon-holed him into a diagnosis that didn't fit him or our family structure at all. After throwing our lives topsy-turvy for two weeks, we decided to keep an appointment with a respected neurologist for a second opinion.

This week we met with the neurologist - it was a 2 hour appointment, again filled with lots of questions (and my incredible wife supplied them with an 8-page history of our boy - from infancy to today, as well as our recent GLOWING parent-teacher conference). Interestingly, the neurologist refused to diagnose him with anything at this point (but supplied the standard ADHD for insurance reasons). He said that he couldn't possibly diagnose after barely getting to know him, but there were some issues that he saw that he'd like to work on - sensory issues as well as a preponderance to deal with frustration without the ability to pause and think (I'm paraphrasing here) before reacting. They're recommending very low dosage of a medication that works with the dopamines in the brain and should help him think before reacting. My wife and I have never been proponents of meds for kids (and the prescription panacea society we live in), however...we know our child has issues, but the neurologist seems to think these are not chronic. If this low dosage med can help him with his self-esteem, make better decisions, and finally....finally have a friend, then I am reluctantly giving in.

I'll let you know how we progress...

[Tekneek]

It is nonsense that it has something to do with being strict. That kind of answer is a non-starter in this situation.

Whatever you do, I would try and avoid medication. No matter what 'they' say, it is really an unknown as to what that is doing to people over a lifetime. I'd try absolutely everything before I'd put drugs into a child who has no choice in the matter. My personal research indicates that schools are more likely to encourage medication because it helps them deal with a situation, and not because it truly is an ideal solution. Be sure to be skeptical about anything they suggest and seek multiple opinions. I think the worst thing you can do is believe one authority figure when it comes to putting your kid on a longterm medication that may reshape their personality. Adults try to take themselves off of medications like that because they hate the side effects. It will be hard or impossible for a young kid to explain that to anyone.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

This week we met with the neurologist - it was a 2 hour appointment, again filled with lots of questions (and my incredible wife supplied them with an 8-page history of our boy - from infancy to today, as well as our recent GLOWING parent-teacher conference). Interestingly, the neurologist refused to diagnose him with anything at this point (but supplied the standard ADHD for insurance reasons). He said that he couldn't possibly diagnose after barely getting to know him, but there were some issues that he saw that he'd like to work on - sensory issues as well as a preponderance to deal with frustration without the ability to pause and think (I'm paraphrasing here) before reacting. They're recommending very low dosage of a medication that works with the dopamines in the brain and should help him think before reacting. My wife and I have never been proponents of meds for kids (and the prescription panacea society we live in), however...we know our child has issues, but the neurologist seems to think these are not chronic. If this low dosage med can help him with his self-esteem, make better decisions, and finally....finally have a friend, then I am reluctantly giving in.

I'll let you know how we progress...

Seems like you finally found a medical person who will LISTEN and take the time to figure out what's really going on. That makes all the difference. That first set you went to were a bunch of kooks, glad you're not listening to them.

It's good to be skeptical of the meds, but it may be the right thing. Just pay close attention to how your child reacts, and keep communicating this to the doctor. Different kids (adults, too) will react differently to different meds, so they may have to try some others if this one does not work out, and they may have to tweak dosages. It sounds like the doctor wants to keep digging, but has given you one low-risk option to start making things better. As long as he keeps listening to what you're saying and explains things you don't understand (like WHY he's taking a particular course of treatment), you're in good hands.

Good luck!

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

Aspergers made the front page of our local paper, the Fresno Bee, today.

It is a shame that stories like that are the only times that Asperger's Syndrome gets mentioned. Worse than that, the studies about it go back 60 years or so, as I recall, but idiots still pretend that it does not exist. That's fine. They can throw the book at this kid for something that the school could have prevented by simply allowing him to call home whenever he felt the need. It's unclear to me why they should be able to prevent a 15 year old from calling his parents anytime he feels the need. If they don't trust him to not call someone else, by all means dial the phone for him...but for him to have to ask permission, to address something they've already acknowledged, introduces the potential for conflict.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

"These children don't grow up to be doctors or lawyers, they grow up to be incarcerated."

You were right to disagree with this. It's frightening that a "professional" is out there saying such things. I'm inclined to say that person should lose their license. They are making that statement as fact, from a position of authority. They should be expected to back that up with documentation that proves their position. Short of that, they should be kicked in the ass with a big boot.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

"These children don't grow up to be doctors or lawyers, they grow up to be incarcerated."

How hard did you hit the guy?

Keep your chin up. I am a new parent and only hope I can deal with the normal frustrations of parenthood with the patience and love you are displaying dealing with the extreme frustration this must engender.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

He just seems to have more rage than the other kids.

I was a really easy-going kid growing up. I mean, I would actually analyze as a young child the cause and effect of things. If it wasn't worth the consequences, it wasn't worth doing. My son has no concept of consequences because everything is in real-time for him - immediate gratification or nothing. He is just incapable of putting aside his own needs for something later or someone else.

Thanks for the well wishes

I was that kid, although maybe not to the degree that your child is. I was always in trouble, caused endless difficulties for my parents and thought only of myself. Today, I'm the same person, but with my own apartment.

Seriously though, once I got to high school things started to settle down and then getting to college was like a revelation for me. Totally changed me as a person. My point mainly is that people do change, so I wouldn't give up hope, although you may have to wait a while to see the results of your labors.

[CraigSca]

Another update...

After working with the neurologist (who immediately put him on "metadate") for a couple months, we stopped going. Metadate did nothing for him - we found no reaction whatsoever, and we also found it mildly distasteful that it took about 10 mins of NO interaction with our child before we received a prescription and a light pat on the butt to move along.

Since then..we've dealt with things the best we know how. We have a number of neighbors who see my son as either high-strung, or just an obnoxious brat (I would think the same exact thing). It's SO damn easy (and I continue to struggle with this myself) with the mentality that all he needs is a good beating (or something to that effect).

We are now taking him to a new therapist. Without any word of any previous diagnoses (we only told her about the hospital's Conduct Disorder) she said Asperger's on the second visit and only needs it to be endorsed by the staff psychiatrist. I'm really not sure where that leaves us, however.

Basically, Asperger's is a highly-functional form of autism. But...what it really does is give the child a lack of empathy and personal space of others as well as a need for things to be "just right" in the child's eyes (i.e. little or no compromise). So...he/she fulfills her own needs and could give a damn about the rest of the world. For lack of a better term, your child comes across as an undisciplined, obnoxious jerk. Later, I can imagine these people are just thought of as ...I won't even say it.

How does one, who takes such great care in making sure their kids are happy, well-adjusted, good people deal with a child who just does not have the "software" to be that way?

Here's an example - we recently got the kids a swingset. My daugher is on the swing, having a good time. My son is along the top of the swings, on the monkey bars, enjoying pulling one chain of the swing out of my daughter's reach so she can't get on. I tell him to stop doing it once. Second time, I tell him if he does it again I will bring him inside. Third time, I see him doing it (all within a 2 min period) and tell him to march inside - he tells me, "I didn't do it" and then "you can't reach me up here." This, coming from a 6 year old of all things. I tell him, "don't even try me - get your butt in here." I then put him in timeout and he stops doing the behavior. But...to tell me, "you can't reach me up here"?! - wtf?! I can't ever imagine telling my Dad that.

As another example (this one of his anger) - it's time for dinner. My wife tells both our kids to wash their hands. My daughter happily runs into the bathroom and does so. My son is too busy talking and ignores the reminder. Finally, dinner is served and my wife reminds him again - he literally moans and growls in anger that it's her fault he didn't wash his hands because she didn't remind him enough.

Third example - again from today - while playing with the cat (bouncing a string in his face) the cat decides he's in no mood. Early in the day it was fine, but I guess the cat had had enough. So...my son continues to chase the cat around the house flicking the string in his face. finally, my wife and I tell him, "it looks like the cat doesn't want to play right now - maybe you should read a book, etc.,etc." He reacts in anger saying, "I hate that cat. He's stupid"...and then continues to try to get the cat to play (and therefore continues to get more frustrated). After about 10 minutes, my wife sets him up with something else and he finally relents.

As you can see from the above example - he just has no empathy for anything/anyone - and he just can't let things go - they get bigger and bigger until he's furious.'

I am praying that this therapist gives me/us some strategies. On a personal level, I'm not sure I can deal with the approach we've heard so far: basically accept it, but try to divert the behavior. How many times do I have to be in social situations embarass the heck out of all of us? I know that's a reflection on me (and a pathetic one), but I can't pretend to be Jesus himself and smile and move on. I love my son - I would do anything for him - I just don't want him to grow up to be hated.

Thanks for listening.