Columbia Professor calls for "A Million Mogadishus" - Page 2

CamEdwards · 03-28-2003, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by John Galt
Why try to get this guy fired? Yes, his views are extreme and yes, he disagrees with most everyone on this board? That being said, some of the best learning experiences I've had in my life have been when confronted with extremes and provocative thought. America works because we seek to engage and discuss - trying to have this guy fired doesn't accomplish that at all. What is the fear of letting him keep working and giving a few speeches that are against the mainstream?

Besides, I think a couple of his publications look interesting.

1995 "Gangster Rap and Nihilism in Black America: Some Questions of Life and Death." Social Text 43: 89-132.
1995 "Check Your Head: The Cultural Politics of Rap Music." Transition 67: 123-37.
1996 "Split-Level Bedlam: Chicago at the End of the Twentieth Century." Public Culture 9:1: 114-25.
1997 "The Junkyard of Futures Past." Anthropology and Humanism 22:2: 171-79.
1998 "Race, Space, and the Reinvention of Latin America in Mexican Chicago." Latin American Perspectives 102: 25:5: 87-116.

I don't like his views on the war either, but let's not turn this into a world of blacklisting again.

John, pardon me, but what the hell are you talking about? Where did you ever see me say I wanted the guy fired? In fact, I told him I wish no ill will on him.

As for this blacklisting baloney, tell me how refusing to spend my hard earned dollars to send my daughter to an institution where this guy would be teaching her is blacklisting? It's not blacklisting, it's the law of supply and demand.

Boycotting Hollywood actors and actresses because of their views on the war isn't blacklisting. It's making a decision not to monetarily support someone because you disagree with them.

Just because someone has the freedom of speech doesn't mean I have to give them my money so they can continue to be relevant in the eyes of the media.

It's not anti-American, it's not blacklisting. In fact it's capitalism at it's best.

Craptacular · 03-28-2003, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CamEdwards

In fact it's capitalism at it's best.

Uh oh!

CamEdwards · 03-28-2003, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cthomer5000
But what is the intent of free speech? If something a professor says will draw enough heat that he'll be forced to resign, what kind of free speech does he have?

I think directing your opinion at the professor is legitimate, but taking it out on the university is inappropriate. I also think the bands of people that are going to call for the professor to be fired are wrong. People have a right to make asses out of themselves. If the professor had hoped we slaughter millions of Iraqui soliders, would anyone want to push him out of a job?

Dola:

Let me get this straight. You believe one person saying he hopes a million Americans are killed by Iraqi soldiers is okay. You believe that anybody responding negatively to this man infringes somehow on his right to speak freely. And you believe to let his employer know that you will not spend thousands of dollars a year at this institution because you don't want your child exposed to this kind of message is wrong.

I will tell you the same thing I told Professor de Genova.

I hope one day your wisdom equals your intellect.

scooper · 03-28-2003, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cthomer5000
But what is the intent of free speech? If something a professor says will draw enough heat that he'll be forced to resign, what kind of free speech does he have?

He has the freedom that he will not be arrested or even killed as he might be for saying certain things in certain countries. There will be no government mandated backlash. That is freedom of speech.

On the other hand, other parties such as perspective students and the intstitution itself have the freedom to respond to what he said as long as their response falls within legal means.

heybrad · 03-28-2003, 01:07 PM

If I went to the Consumer Electronics Show (the business my company is in) and gave a ridiculous speech about killing americans, I would be fired because like it or not, I represent my company in that setting. If a professor is going to have a "teach-in", he represents the university. If the university feels it does not want to represented in that matter they can take action.

This idea that you can say whatever you want without possible consequences is ridiculous.

Craptacular · 03-28-2003, 01:09 PM

heybrad!

sorry, don't think I've ever done that appropriately before

edit: Now that I got that in, I had originally typed (and then deleted) something similar to your "representing my company" comment earlier, but you put it more eloquently than I would have.

John Galt · 03-28-2003, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CamEdwards
John, pardon me, but what the hell are you talking about? Where did you ever see me say I wanted the guy fired? In fact, I told him I wish no ill will on him.

As for this blacklisting baloney, tell me how refusing to spend my hard earned dollars to send my daughter to an institution where this guy would be teaching her is blacklisting? It's not blacklisting, it's the law of supply and demand.

Boycotting Hollywood actors and actresses because of their views on the war isn't blacklisting. It's making a decision not to monetarily support someone because you disagree with them.

Just because someone has the freedom of speech doesn't mean I have to give them my money so they can continue to be relevant in the eyes of the media.

It's not anti-American, it's not blacklisting. In fact it's capitalism at it's best.

I wasn't necessarily targetting you, although it seems the letter to the president of the university could be directed at getting the guy fired. If it isn't, then why do it?

And boycotting is fine (even though I think it is a mistake to boycott a learning institution because they have an extreme diversity of viewpoints) and I think you shouldn't put your money where you don't want it. I was only arguing against firing the man.

And when I say blacklisting, I mean that if this guy is fired, he won't be able to land another job (he is an assistant professor which usually means he doesn't have tenure). I think the case of a professor is also different than an actor or actress. Professors and universities function best when people aren't deterred or chilled from taking radical stands. If people fear their politics will get them fired, then a lot of liberal arts disciplines will lose a lot of original thought.

Capitalism is boycotting - seeking to have someone fired because you disagree with them is not capitalism (although it is an exercise of your freedom).

CamEdwards · 03-28-2003, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by John Galt
I wasn't necessarily targetting you, although it seems the letter to the president of the university could be directed at getting the guy fired. If it isn't, then why do it?

Let me try and explain it. Let's say you have a potential client you've been trying to land. All of a sudden he decides to go with another firm. Wouldn't you want to know why?

I believe that regardless of the political stance of the university president, he would want to know that the statements his professor is making is having an impact on enrollment.

Let me ask you this: if I just thought this professor was the bees knees and decided that Columbia was where my daughter was going to go to school, and I wrote a letter to the president telling him that, would you still have a problem with my correspondence? Or again, is it okay to be in lockstep with people calling for the killing of Americans, yet not okay to express your dismay at their dissent?

Bee · 03-28-2003, 01:18 PM

Leave my knees out of it.

Marmel · 03-28-2003, 01:20 PM

John,

Couldn't people protesting Bush and his war also be seen as people trying to get Bush 'fired' in the next election? I am sure a lot of them want him out of office. I notice you do not have a problem with that.

scooper · 03-28-2003, 01:21 PM

I'm going on the record. I hope he gets fired. And I hope he never gets another job in academia. Teachers, even at the college level, have a major influence on the thinking of students. I don't want the seed in question here planted in anyone's mind. I am all for questioning the status quo and healthy debate and protest. I am not for calling for the murder of millions of my own countrymen. For that matter, I would feel the same way about a professor calling for the mass murder of Iraqi civilians.

CHEMICAL SOLDIER · 03-28-2003, 01:22 PM

I just got a little carried away .

John Galt · 03-28-2003, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CamEdwards
Let me try and explain it. Let's say you have a potential client you've been trying to land. All of a sudden he decides to go with another firm. Wouldn't you want to know why?

I believe that regardless of the political stance of the university president, he would want to know that the statements his professor is making is having an impact on enrollment.

Let me ask you this: if I just thought this professor was the bees knees and decided that Columbia was where my daughter was going to go to school, and I wrote a letter to the president telling him that, would you still have a problem with my correspondence? Or again, is it okay to be in lockstep with people calling for the killing of Americans, yet not okay to express your dismay at their dissent?

My point is that universities are places that should have extreme viewpoints. When the university starts firing people because they are extreme, original thought suffers. Letting the president know (although you and I both know he is well aware of the effect this will have) that enrollment may suffer is a way to get this guy fired and I think learning and provacative inquiry will suffer.

As a personal note, there is a decent possibility that I will be a law professor within the next several years. I know what I will publish will upset a great many people (since my writing is almost entirely in the gender and law studies area). To think that I have to restrain my thought because I don't want to risk getting quoted in a newspaper and subsequently fired, is disappointing. I hope it never comes to that and I will always feel free to push my arguments to the extreme that I feel is warranted.

CamEdwards · 03-28-2003, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CHEMICAL SOLDIER
I just got a little carried away .

Hearing someone say they hope someone else kills you has a way of doing that. I understand.

EagleFan · 03-28-2003, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Marmel
John,

Couldn't people protesting Bush and his war also be seen as people trying to get Bush 'fired' in the next election? I am sure a lot of them want him out of office. I notice you do not have a problem with that.

Uh oh, I think someone has painted himself in a corner.

Phrased quite well Marmel.

John Galt · 03-28-2003, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Marmel
John,

Couldn't people protesting Bush and his war also be seen as people trying to get Bush 'fired' in the next election? I am sure a lot of them want him out of office. I notice you do not have a problem with that.

I actually don't dislike Bush anymore than I did Gore - I thought both candidates sucked and both would have made a mess out of this situation.

And I think being an academic is different as my above post indicates.

Bee · 03-28-2003, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by John Galt
I actually don't dislike Bush anymore than I did Gore - I thought both candidates sucked and both would have made a mess out of this situation.

And I think being an academic is different as my above post indicates.

Yep...we wouldn't want to compare Bush to an academic.

JonInMiddleGA · 03-28-2003, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CamEdwards
Since when did freedom of speech protect you from the consequences of what comes out of your mouth?

It doesn't, or at least it shouldn't. But there are some who sure try to portray it that way.

"Actions _have_ consequences" is the most underused, underappreciate, underapplied, and unrecognized phrase I can think of in the English langauge.

Marmel · 03-28-2003, 01:29 PM

Being an academic is a lot different. You get to spew a lot of crap that is useless in the real world.

heybrad · 03-28-2003, 01:31 PM

When did higher education shift from presenting the facts and allowing students to come to their own conclusions to professors sharing their personal viewpoints to help students come to their own conclusions.

Theres a scary difference there.

CamEdwards · 03-28-2003, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by John Galt
To think that I have to restrain my thought because I don't want to risk getting quoted in a newspaper and subsequently fired, is disappointing. I hope it never comes to that and I will always feel free to push my arguments to the extreme that I feel is warranted.

Excuse me? You're actually saying this? Since I'm not going to reveal anything you told me in a PM, would YOU mind explaining to the class why you won't be participating in a debate with an Iraqi-American on my show? If you won't, can I at least share with the class the PM you sent me explaining?

Academia does not exist in a vacuum. Extreme thought is not always good. For instance, would you support a college professor saying he hopes we bomb the Iraqi civilians to hell and back? Would you support a university president saying he believes women should be kept barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen? Would you stand behind the professor who said that black people are evil and all gays should be executed?

John Galt · 03-28-2003, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Marmel
Being an academic is a lot different. You get to spew a lot of crap that is useless in the real world.

That may be true (that is obviously another OT conversation), but I just think firing for beliefs in academia is a bad path to follow.

scooper · 03-28-2003, 01:33 PM

John,

While I probably would not agree with what you write, I agree with your right to say it. But if you write in favor of the deaths of millions of Americans, I hope they fire you too.

Marmel · 03-28-2003, 01:33 PM

Firing for belief is a bad path.

Firing for teaching certain beliefs to students and not just presenting facts, is not necessarily a bad path.

John Galt · 03-28-2003, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CamEdwards
Excuse me? You're actually saying this? Since I'm not going to reveal anything you told me in a PM, would YOU mind explaining to the class why you won't be participating in a debate with an Iraqi-American on my show? If you won't, can I at least share with the class the PM you sent me explaining?

Academia does not exist in a vacuum. Extreme thought is not always good. For instance, would you support a college professor saying he hopes we bomb the Iraqi civilians to hell and back? Would you support a university president saying he believes women should be kept barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen? Would you stand behind the professor who said that black people are evil and all gays should be executed?

I'll sum up my PM and explain why it is different. Right now, I'm a lawyer which means I have a duty to all clients the firm takes on. If I publish or make a public appearance, I have to do so with the interests and conflicts of my client in mind. As a result, my firm (like most big firms) has a conflicts check and public relations group through which you must clear publications or appearences. Participating in a public debate about Iraq may be in conflict with certain client interests (or it may actually be consistent but not how the client wants the views expressed). Being a lawyer restains me in this way (yet I have gotten every publication I've written approved because they have little to do with our clients). That is one of the reasons I expect to pursue an academic path in the future.

As for your hypotheticals, my answer is a solid "it depends." If a professor is doing work to justify and explore those beliefs (which I know is always a subjective assessment), then they should continue to work. If, however, they are just spouting off and not pursuing "academic" work, then they shouldn't be a member of the faculty. The truth is we don't know what else this guy said and what is scholarship is like. Based on the articles on Columbia's website, it seems he was speaking out of his focus area (but they didn't have recent publications). I just think it is a mistake to pursue firings based only on differences in belief (a complaint most commonly made by conservatives at very liberal schools).

John Galt · 03-28-2003, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Marmel
Firing for belief is a bad path.

Firing for teaching certain beliefs to students and not just presenting facts, is not necessarily a bad path.

I think the notion that there are "facts" to be taught (especially at advanced levels) in most liberal arts education is a myth. That is why academics disagree.

CamEdwards · 03-28-2003, 01:44 PM

will you PLEASE stop bringing up "firings". Since I'm the only one who's written a letter to the president, and you already know why I wrote it, please stop putting intent behind my actions.

Secondly, this professor is an assistant professor of anthropology, with a primary focus on Latin America.

I'm not asking if they should be a member of the faculty. That's once again you ignoring what I'm asking (remind me never to hire you, btw. I like my attorneys to actually listen to me). I asked if you would support them. Let me run the choices by you again.

would you support a college professor saying he hopes we bomb the Iraqi civilians to hell and back? Would you support a university president saying he believes women should be kept barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen? Would you stand behind the professor who said that black people are evil and all gays should be executed?

heybrad · 03-28-2003, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by John Galt
If a professor is doing work to justify and explore those beliefs (which I know is always a subjective assessment), then they should continue to work.

Shoot first and ask questions later, huh.

John Galt · 03-28-2003, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CamEdwards
will you PLEASE stop bringing up "firings". Since I'm the only one who's written a letter to the president, and you already know why I wrote it, please stop putting intent behind my actions.

Secondly, this professor is an assistant professor of anthropology, with a primary focus on Latin America.

I'm not asking if they should be a member of the faculty. That's once again you ignoring what I'm asking (remind me never to hire you, btw. I like my attorneys to actually listen to me). I asked if you would support them. Let me run the choices by you again.

would you support a college professor saying he hopes we bomb the Iraqi civilians to hell and back? Would you support a university president saying he believes women should be kept barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen? Would you stand behind the professor who said that black people are evil and all gays should be executed?

The "firings" isn't directed at you - there are other people in this thread supporting his firing (and that was what my original post was limited to).

I am listening to you, but what does "support" mean? I took it to mean "support" there continued presence on the faculty. If you mean something else, let me know.

Fritz · 03-28-2003, 01:49 PM

being an academic is no shield when you call for the deaths of Americans

CAsterling · 03-28-2003, 01:52 PM

My only problem with the speech is - Why the heck is it considered news ?

Its the opinion of one person who shared it with other people - I do the same in my environment, I'm sure most people here do the same.

He may influence some students, so might I when taking to my relatives/friends.

Must say i really don't care what he said, why or when - the only thing I don't agree with in this thread is that academics should be able to share extreme opinions - places of learning should teach the facts, and allow students to come to their own opinions - they can teach as many unpleasant facts as they want, and keep opinions to private audiences.

Also doesn't that idiot understand that battle he is referring to in Mogadishu was from a military perspective a victory, just from a PR/political one it failed.

Save us from well meaning academics

CamEdwards · 03-28-2003, 01:58 PM

he said it front of 3000 people. That's why it's news.

He said it at a rally, John. He's an assistant professor of anthropology specializing in Latin America. Now you know the facts.

I mean support in terms of what I'm doing. I'm not supporting this jackhole. I'm speaking out against him. You're defending him. Would you support the professors in the hypotheticals I just presented. Same scenario, a rally attended by 3,000 people. The professors say what I wrote. Would you support them? And knowing more about the situation, do you support this professor (your definition and/or mine of support)?

cthomer5000 · 03-28-2003, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CamEdwards
John, pardon me, but what the hell are you talking about? Where did you ever see me say I wanted the guy fired? In fact, I told him I wish no ill will on him.

As for this blacklisting baloney, tell me how refusing to spend my hard earned dollars to send my daughter to an institution where this guy would be teaching her is blacklisting? It's not blacklisting, it's the law of supply and demand.

Boycotting Hollywood actors and actresses because of their views on the war isn't blacklisting. It's making a decision not to monetarily support someone because you disagree with them.

Just because someone has the freedom of speech doesn't mean I have to give them my money so they can continue to be relevant in the eyes of the media.

It's not anti-American, it's not blacklisting. In fact it's capitalism at it's best.

So don't go to Columbia. Don't pay for someone else to go to Columbia. Why did you feel the need to email the president of the school? You claim you do not intend to get the professor fired, but the email to the president of the university can ONLY help to get him fired.

John Galt · 03-28-2003, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CamEdwards
he said it front of 3000 people. That's why it's news.

He said it at a rally, John. He's an assistant professor of anthropology specializing in Latin America. Now you know the facts.

I mean support in terms of what I'm doing. I'm not supporting this jackhole. I'm speaking out against him. You're defending him. Would you support the professors in the hypotheticals I just presented. Same scenario, a rally attended by 3,000 people. The professors say what I wrote. Would you support them? And knowing more about the situation, do you support this professor (your definition and/or mine of support)?

I knew the facts you named before. What I don't know is what the rest of his speech was, whether he had written scholarship in the area (I know it is outside of his specialty as I wrote earlier, but they don't have a recent publication list), and what were the warrants for his claims.

If another professor defended killing blacks, I would not "support" them in the sense I think you are talking about. Then again, I wouldn't write a letter or pursue their firing unless the other conditions I met were named. And if you mean that saying, "it is possible for someone to write and defend that America should lose and millions should die" is defending him, then yes I'm defending him even though I don't agree with him. Extreme viewpoints make the debate - debate within limits is no debate at all.

CamEdwards · 03-28-2003, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cthomer5000
So don't go to Columbia. Don't pay for someone else to go to Columbia. Why did you feel the need to email the president of the school? You claim you do not intend to get the professor fired, but the email to the president of the university can ONLY help to get him fired.

I already answered this:

Let me try and explain it. Let's say you have a potential client you've been trying to land. All of a sudden he decides to go with another firm. Wouldn't you want to know why?

I believe that regardless of the political stance of the university president, he would want to know that the statements his professor is making is having an impact on enrollment.

Let me ask you this: if I just thought this professor was the bees knees and decided that Columbia was where my daughter was going to go to school, and I wrote a letter to the president telling him that, would you still have a problem with my correspondence? Or again, is it okay to be in lockstep with people calling for the killing of Americans, yet not okay to express your dismay at their dissent?

cthomer5000 · 03-28-2003, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CamEdwards
I already answered this:

Let me try and explain it. Let's say you have a potential client you've been trying to land. All of a sudden he decides to go with another firm. Wouldn't you want to know why?

I believe that regardless of the political stance of the university president, he would want to know that the statements his professor is making is having an impact on enrollment.

Let me ask you this: if I just thought this professor was the bees knees and decided that Columbia was where my daughter was going to go to school, and I wrote a letter to the president telling him that, would you still have a problem with my correspondence? Or again, is it okay to be in lockstep with people calling for the killing of Americans, yet not okay to express your dismay at their dissent?

the board begs you not to use any more 1920's slang.

Was/is your daughter seriously considering Columbia at the moment?

Marmel · 03-28-2003, 02:25 PM

Cam just lost the entire argument/discussion because he used "bees knees"

Good bye Mr. Edwards.

CamEdwards · 03-28-2003, 02:26 PM

ct, do you even bother to read this thread? I could quote another one of my earlier posts, but I'll just say yes, Columbia is one of her top 3 choices. She might still be considering Columbia. If she decides to go there, however, it will be without a penny of my support.

John, no one's arguing the man's freedom to say what he wants. But what you want is debate without limits AND freedom of speech without consequences. If we ever have that, I'm going to pull an Alec Baldwin and threaten to leave the country but then really stay put.

CamEdwards · 03-28-2003, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Marmel
Cam just lost the entire argument/discussion because he used "bees knees"

Good bye Mr. Edwards.

Forgot to put my Dola:

I use corny words to avoid profanity laced tirades.

My use of inappropriate 1920's slang is protected under the first amendment, and as we've already been shown, any attempt to undermine or disagree with anything I say will be viewed as censorship and Hitler-esque. So therefore, my saying "bees knees" coupled with your judgemental response means I win not only this argument, but all future arguments as well.

Golly gee whiz.

Bee · 03-28-2003, 02:32 PM

Well, just keep my other body parts out of the discussion. Thank you.

Mountain · 03-28-2003, 02:32 PM

Cam I think you would be making a mistake by not sending your daughter to Columbia just because this professor workd there.

First, let me say that I think the professor's comments are reprehensible and I in no way condone or endorse what he said.

I think it would be a mistake for several reasons:
1) Columbia is an excellent university with an excellent reputation;

2) I agree with John Galt that true intellectual growth occurs when you can be critical of opinions given to you by traditional authority figures. An unchallenged mind is an unthinking mind. Being exposed to and thinknig about extreme opinions challenges the listener to identify why they feel the view is extreme and how that view fits in with their beleif system. Exposure to extreme views sharpens your critical mind;

3) A university is the type of protected environemnt where you want a young person to develop their critical thought processes. That way if she is in the business world and her boss tells her to put out a drug despite knowing it would blind people, or not spending an additional twenty dollars per car when designing a car to prevent it from blowing up in rear end collisions, or representing a SUV as safe to consumers that is so unstbale in rollover situations that the company wouldn't let their test drivers acutally drive the vehicles on the test track because it was too dangerous, your daughter might call bullshit and not condone the action.

For examples of this type of corporate behavior read Roginshy v. Richardson-Merrell, Inc., 378 F.2d 832 (2d. Cir. 1967) (the drug case where the manufacturer knew that the drugs caused dogs used in animal tests to go blind saying the drug was completely safe); Grmshaw v. Ford Motor Co., 174 Cal. Rptr. 348 (4th Dist. 1981) (the famous Ford Pinto, designed by your friend and mine Lee Iacocca, case where if Ford spent an additional $23 per car wouild have eliminated the ecplosion during rear impact collision problem completely.) Watkins v. Ford Motor Co., 190 F.3d 1213 (11th Cir. 1999) (Ford Brono II rollover case.)

4) Every universtiy has professors who have extreme views either way. That's the nature of academia.

Please don't take this post to mean that I presume to know what's best for your daughter. You rightly have her best interests at heart. I'm just trying to say that I don't agree at all with what this schmuk said but exposure to such ideas is not necessarily a bad thing, especially if she comes to you with what this guy said and you can discuss it with her and show her why he's an asshole.

John Galt · 03-28-2003, 02:33 PM

In regards to the Augusta boycott, CamEdwards posted this:

Quote:

caving into public pressure, allowing others to ramrod their idea of what is right and wrong down your throat, letting people trample over the idea that we have an inalienable right to be asshats... how is that ever the right thing to do?
Again, I think if Martha Burke wants to protest, let her, but she's protesting a basic American right. Hootie and the Blowhards will NEVER back down now, even though they were already talking with at least one woman about joining Augusta when Ms. Burke started her yapping.

In regards to the boycott of the Columbia professor and Hollywood stats, CamEdwards posted this:

Quote:

Boycotting Hollywood actors and actresses because of their views on the war isn't blacklisting. It's making a decision not to monetarily support someone because you disagree with them.

Just because someone has the freedom of speech doesn't mean I have to give them my money so they can continue to be relevant in the eyes of the media.

It's not anti-American, it's not blacklisting. In fact it's capitalism at it's best.

So is Martha Burk exercising "capitalism at its best" or if Columbia listened to your concerns and "cav[ed] to public pressure," "how is that ever the right thing to do?" I realize that in both cases you express the belief that protest is a right, but there seems to be a strong contradiction in your belief in protesting effectiveness and proper response by those at whom the protest is aimed.

cthomer5000 · 03-28-2003, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CamEdwards
ct, do you even bother to read this thread? I could quote another one of my earlier posts, but I'll just say yes, Columbia is one of her top 3 choices. She might still be considering Columbia. If she decides to go there, however, it will be without a penny of my support.

John, no one's arguing the man's freedom to say what he wants. But what you want is debate without limits AND freedom of speech without consequences. If we ever have that, I'm going to pull an Alec Baldwin and threaten to leave the country but then really stay put.

please jump off your high horse, this is all you ever said in regard to columbia:

Quote:

My daughter is currently a high school sophomore, receiving letters from colleges across the country, including your own. Your institution will not benefit from her intellect, nor will it benefit from my dollars.

I received a lot of shit in the mail too, it didn't automatically make every school who sent me something a "top 3 choice."

Fritz · 03-28-2003, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by John Galt
I knew the facts you named before. What I don't know is what the rest of his speech was, whether he had written scholarship in the area (I know it is outside of his specialty as I wrote earlier, but they don't have a recent publication list), and what were the warrants for his claims.

Does anyone in American Academia have a speciality in calling for the deaths of our soldiers? If so it is time to cancel some endowments.

cthomer5000 · 03-28-2003, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fritz
Does anyone in American Academia have a speciality in calling for the deaths of our soldiers? If so it is time to cancel some endowments.

But if he said "I sure hope we whoop Iraq's ass, and then crush the evil that is Al Queda." would you have a problem with his opinion?

Fritz · 03-28-2003, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cthomer5000
But if he said "I sure hope we whoop Iraq's ass, and then crush the evil that is Al Queda." would you have a problem with his opinion?

of course not. why would you ask such a ridiculous question?

Aylmar · 03-28-2003, 02:48 PM

The part of the entire debate that I don't seem to understand is why this guy should be exempted from the consequences of his actions. Why is it wrong for Cam to voice his disagreement with the professor (with both statement and the denial of money to the University)?

Do those of you who advocate this position also believe that people who are refusing to buy Dixie Chicks albums and concert tickets are somehow "censoring" them? That their right to Free Speech has somehow been compromised?

CamEdwards · 03-28-2003, 02:50 PM

Ct, actually back on page 1 you quoted one of my replies in which I said my daughter is thinking about attending. It was NOT part of the email I sent. Pardon me if I saddle up.

My daughter is currently a 3.8 student who plays in the band, will begin a two year internship at a medical research facility next year, volunteers at a church youth group, and has gone on several missionary trips. She's also bi-racial. I only bring this up because of the diversity that colleges covet these days. Columbia is a distinct possibility for her, and more than one guidance counselor and teacher has told her that.

I, like you, got a lot of letters from colleges back in high school. I, like you, ended up going to a state institution. In fact, I applied at Columbia, believe it or not. Waiting list and no financial aid.

You think I was wrong for writing the president. Fine. I promise I won't write Rutgers and ask the president what they're teaching in New Brunswick these days.

As far as what Mountain mentioned, I'm all for critical thinking. The problem comes into play when you realize that it's not an exercise in critical thinking, that there's really a man whose paycheck comes from Columbia University who is rooting for the bodies of a million American soldiers to be dragged through the streets of Iraq. He's not interested in teaching kids to think critically. By speaking at a "teach-in", a rally supportive of the killing of America's soldiers disguised as freedom of intellectual, he's not doing anything other than trying to get others to think like him. I'm sure at every university I can find professors I disagree with. I'm also sure that there's a university where professors don't publicly advocate the death of our men and women and the victory of the Saddam Hussein regime.

SplitPersonality1 · 03-28-2003, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CamEdwards
Forgot to put my Dola:

I use corny words to avoid profanity laced tirades.

My use of inappropriate 1920's slang is protected under the first amendment, and as we've already been shown, any attempt to undermine or disagree with anything I say will be viewed as censorship and Hitler-esque. So therefore, my saying "bees knees" coupled with your judgemental response means I win not only this argument, but all future arguments as well.

Golly gee whiz.

Best post of this thread, if only because it lightens the mood a bit.

cthomer5000 · 03-28-2003, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Aylmar
Do those of you who advocate this position also believe that people who are refusing to buy Dixie Chicks albums and concert tickets are somehow "censoring" them? That their right to Free Speech has somehow been compromised?

Not at all. Cam has the right not to pay for tuition to Columbia. People have the right to not buy Dixie Chicks albums.

We're talking about getting a professor fired for his opinion (and of course, only beacuse that opinion is not acceptable to us). Whether Cam realizes it or not, he will only have increased the likelihood the professor gets fired by sending that email. If we can all say we wouldn't have any problem with this professor advocating the killing of Iragui soldiers, why would we want to fire him for a converse view?

03-28-2003, 01:09 PM	#56
Craptacular College Starter Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: The Mad City, WI	heybrad! sorry, don't think I've ever done that appropriately before edit: Now that I got that in, I had originally typed (and then deleted) something similar to your "representing my company" comment earlier, but you put it more eloquently than I would have. Last edited by Craptacular : 03-28-2003 at 01:10 PM.

03-28-2003, 01:20 PM	#60
Marmel Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Manchester, CT	John, Couldn't people protesting Bush and his war also be seen as people trying to get Bush 'fired' in the next election? I am sure a lot of them want him out of office. I notice you do not have a problem with that. __________________ 81-78 Cincinnati basketball writer P. Daugherty, "Connor Barwin playing several minutes against Syracuse is like kids with slingshots taking down Caesar's legions." Last edited by Marmel : 03-28-2003 at 01:20 PM.

03-28-2003, 01:22 PM	#62
CHEMICAL SOLDIER College Starter Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Henderson, Nevada	I just got a little carried away . __________________ Toujour Pret

03-28-2003, 01:29 PM	#69
Marmel Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Manchester, CT	Being an academic is a lot different. You get to spew a lot of crap that is useless in the real world. __________________ 81-78 Cincinnati basketball writer P. Daugherty, "Connor Barwin playing several minutes against Syracuse is like kids with slingshots taking down Caesar's legions."

03-28-2003, 01:33 PM	#74
Marmel Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Manchester, CT	Firing for belief is a bad path. Firing for teaching certain beliefs to students and not just presenting facts, is not necessarily a bad path. __________________ 81-78 Cincinnati basketball writer P. Daugherty, "Connor Barwin playing several minutes against Syracuse is like kids with slingshots taking down Caesar's legions."

03-28-2003, 01:07 PM	#55
heybrad Norm!!! Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Manassas, VA	If I went to the Consumer Electronics Show (the business my company is in) and gave a ridiculous speech about killing americans, I would be fired because like it or not, I represent my company in that setting. If a professor is going to have a "teach-in", he represents the university. If the university feels it does not want to represented in that matter they can take action. This idea that you can say whatever you want without possible consequences is ridiculous.

03-28-2003, 01:18 PM	#59
Bee Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Fairfax, VA	Leave my knees out of it.

03-28-2003, 01:21 PM	#61
scooper College Benchwarmer Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Cinn City	I'm going on the record. I hope he gets fired. And I hope he never gets another job in academia. Teachers, even at the college level, have a major influence on the thinking of students. I don't want the seed in question here planted in anyone's mind. I am all for questioning the status quo and healthy debate and protest. I am not for calling for the murder of millions of my own countrymen. For that matter, I would feel the same way about a professor calling for the mass murder of Iraqi civilians.

03-28-2003, 01:31 PM	#70
heybrad Norm!!! Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Manassas, VA	When did higher education shift from presenting the facts and allowing students to come to their own conclusions to professors sharing their personal viewpoints to help students come to their own conclusions. Theres a scary difference there.

03-28-2003, 01:44 PM	#77
CamEdwards Stadium Announcer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Burke, VA	will you PLEASE stop bringing up "firings". Since I'm the only one who's written a letter to the president, and you already know why I wrote it, please stop putting intent behind my actions. Secondly, this professor is an assistant professor of anthropology, with a primary focus on Latin America. I'm not asking if they should be a member of the faculty. That's once again you ignoring what I'm asking (remind me never to hire you, btw. I like my attorneys to actually listen to me). I asked if you would support them. Let me run the choices by you again. would you support a college professor saying he hopes we bomb the Iraqi civilians to hell and back? Would you support a university president saying he believes women should be kept barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen? Would you stand behind the professor who said that black people are evil and all gays should be executed? __________________ I don't want the world. I just want your half.

03-28-2003, 01:49 PM	#80
Fritz Lethargic Hooligan Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: hello kitty found my wallet at a big tent revival and returned it with all the cash missing	being an academic is no shield when you call for the deaths of Americans __________________ donkey, donkey, walk a little faster

03-28-2003, 01:52 PM	#81
CAsterling High School JV Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Herndon, Va	My only problem with the speech is - Why the heck is it considered news ? Its the opinion of one person who shared it with other people - I do the same in my environment, I'm sure most people here do the same. He may influence some students, so might I when taking to my relatives/friends. Must say i really don't care what he said, why or when - the only thing I don't agree with in this thread is that academics should be able to share extreme opinions - places of learning should teach the facts, and allow students to come to their own opinions - they can teach as many unpleasant facts as they want, and keep opinions to private audiences. Also doesn't that idiot understand that battle he is referring to in Mogadishu was from a military perspective a victory, just from a PR/political one it failed. Save us from well meaning academics

03-28-2003, 01:58 PM	#82
CamEdwards Stadium Announcer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Burke, VA	he said it front of 3000 people. That's why it's news. He said it at a rally, John. He's an assistant professor of anthropology specializing in Latin America. Now you know the facts. I mean support in terms of what I'm doing. I'm not supporting this jackhole. I'm speaking out against him. You're defending him. Would you support the professors in the hypotheticals I just presented. Same scenario, a rally attended by 3,000 people. The professors say what I wrote. Would you support them? And knowing more about the situation, do you support this professor (your definition and/or mine of support)? __________________ I don't want the world. I just want your half.

03-28-2003, 02:25 PM	#87
Marmel Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Manchester, CT	Cam just lost the entire argument/discussion because he used "bees knees" Good bye Mr. Edwards. __________________ 81-78 Cincinnati basketball writer P. Daugherty, "Connor Barwin playing several minutes against Syracuse is like kids with slingshots taking down Caesar's legions."

03-28-2003, 02:26 PM	#88
CamEdwards Stadium Announcer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Burke, VA	ct, do you even bother to read this thread? I could quote another one of my earlier posts, but I'll just say yes, Columbia is one of her top 3 choices. She might still be considering Columbia. If she decides to go there, however, it will be without a penny of my support. John, no one's arguing the man's freedom to say what he wants. But what you want is debate without limits AND freedom of speech without consequences. If we ever have that, I'm going to pull an Alec Baldwin and threaten to leave the country but then really stay put. __________________ I don't want the world. I just want your half.

03-28-2003, 02:32 PM	#90
Bee Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Fairfax, VA	Well, just keep my other body parts out of the discussion. Thank you.

03-28-2003, 02:32 PM	#91
Mountain Mascot Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Columbia, S.C.	Cam I think you would be making a mistake by not sending your daughter to Columbia just because this professor workd there. First, let me say that I think the professor's comments are reprehensible and I in no way condone or endorse what he said. I think it would be a mistake for several reasons: 1) Columbia is an excellent university with an excellent reputation; 2) I agree with John Galt that true intellectual growth occurs when you can be critical of opinions given to you by traditional authority figures. An unchallenged mind is an unthinking mind. Being exposed to and thinknig about extreme opinions challenges the listener to identify why they feel the view is extreme and how that view fits in with their beleif system. Exposure to extreme views sharpens your critical mind; 3) A university is the type of protected environemnt where you want a young person to develop their critical thought processes. That way if she is in the business world and her boss tells her to put out a drug despite knowing it would blind people, or not spending an additional twenty dollars per car when designing a car to prevent it from blowing up in rear end collisions, or representing a SUV as safe to consumers that is so unstbale in rollover situations that the company wouldn't let their test drivers acutally drive the vehicles on the test track because it was too dangerous, your daughter might call bullshit and not condone the action. For examples of this type of corporate behavior read Roginshy v. Richardson-Merrell, Inc., 378 F.2d 832 (2d. Cir. 1967) (the drug case where the manufacturer knew that the drugs caused dogs used in animal tests to go blind saying the drug was completely safe); Grmshaw v. Ford Motor Co., 174 Cal. Rptr. 348 (4th Dist. 1981) (the famous Ford Pinto, designed by your friend and mine Lee Iacocca, case where if Ford spent an additional $23 per car wouild have eliminated the ecplosion during rear impact collision problem completely.) Watkins v. Ford Motor Co., 190 F.3d 1213 (11th Cir. 1999) (Ford Brono II rollover case.) 4) Every universtiy has professors who have extreme views either way. That's the nature of academia. Please don't take this post to mean that I presume to know what's best for your daughter. You rightly have her best interests at heart. I'm just trying to say that I don't agree at all with what this schmuk said but exposure to such ideas is not necessarily a bad thing, especially if she comes to you with what this guy said and you can discuss it with her and show her why he's an asshole.

03-28-2003, 02:48 PM	#97
Aylmar High School Varsity Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Los Angeles	The part of the entire debate that I don't seem to understand is why this guy should be exempted from the consequences of his actions. Why is it wrong for Cam to voice his disagreement with the professor (with both statement and the denial of money to the University)? Do those of you who advocate this position also believe that people who are refusing to buy Dixie Chicks albums and concert tickets are somehow "censoring" them? That their right to Free Speech has somehow been compromised? __________________ "At its best, football is still football, an amalgam of thought and violence, chess with broken bones and shredded ligaments." -- Dave Kindred

03-28-2003, 02:50 PM	#98
CamEdwards Stadium Announcer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Burke, VA	Ct, actually back on page 1 you quoted one of my replies in which I said my daughter is thinking about attending. It was NOT part of the email I sent. Pardon me if I saddle up. My daughter is currently a 3.8 student who plays in the band, will begin a two year internship at a medical research facility next year, volunteers at a church youth group, and has gone on several missionary trips. She's also bi-racial. I only bring this up because of the diversity that colleges covet these days. Columbia is a distinct possibility for her, and more than one guidance counselor and teacher has told her that. I, like you, got a lot of letters from colleges back in high school. I, like you, ended up going to a state institution. In fact, I applied at Columbia, believe it or not. Waiting list and no financial aid. You think I was wrong for writing the president. Fine. I promise I won't write Rutgers and ask the president what they're teaching in New Brunswick these days. As far as what Mountain mentioned, I'm all for critical thinking. The problem comes into play when you realize that it's not an exercise in critical thinking, that there's really a man whose paycheck comes from Columbia University who is rooting for the bodies of a million American soldiers to be dragged through the streets of Iraq. He's not interested in teaching kids to think critically. By speaking at a "teach-in", a rally supportive of the killing of America's soldiers disguised as freedom of intellectual, he's not doing anything other than trying to get others to think like him. I'm sure at every university I can find professors I disagree with. I'm also sure that there's a university where professors don't publicly advocate the death of our men and women and the victory of the Saddam Hussein regime. __________________ I don't want the world. I just want your half.

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