Fiscal Cliff Prediction - Sequestration - Mar 1, 2013

[RainMaker]

And the "printing money" line you use explains everything about Libertarians. You don't even know what that means. It's just a catchphrase to throw out and scare people. Completely void of any context or what is taking place in reality. Our inflation is still low.

And that doesn't even touch on the stupidity of the "gold standard" crowd who think we should base our entire economy on the price of a shiny metal. A shiny metal we can't control and we couldn't possibly by up enough to cover all our legal tender. This is a modern economy and you want us working in the 1800's. Just how far behind other industrialized nations do you want us to fall?

[panerd]

I think you are confusing Gary Johnson who left office with a budget surplus with Bill Richardson one of the big names in the Democratic Party. Do some research on New Mexico again and we will discuss your other nonsense. Like the shiny metal that almost every intelligent investor holds as part of their portfolio or how quantitative easing is so complicated the common man can't possibly grasp and that it certainly isn't just a fancy way of printing money.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by panerd

I think you are confusing Gary Johnson who left office with a budget surplus with Bill Richardson one of the big names in the Democratic Party. Do some research on New Mexico again and we will discuss your other nonsense. Like the shiny metal that almost every intelligent investor holds as part of their portfolio or how quantitative easing is so complicated the common man can't possibly grasp and that it certainly isn't just a fancy way of printing money.

If you honestly think we should be on the gold standard then there's really no point in trying to have a rational conversation with you.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

If you honestly think we should be on the gold standard then there's really no point in trying to have a rational conversation with you.

Yawn. We have been off the gold standard for like forty years. The liberal urban legend is that it is a relic from the 1800's. It was a way to keep your country from going sixteen trillion in debt and from having George Bush start two wars he couldn't pay for and a way to not have the country "held hostage" over the debt limit debate. But it always funny to throw out one liners when you obviously don't really understand its purpose either. But maybe you heard Bill Maher say a "gold standard" funny joke one time.

And anyways I was really responding to rainmaker being a bit of an asshole and using the term shiny metal to imply how stupid I am. Like gold has no fucking value for the last couple thousand years.

[stevew]

I'm going to enjoy all the human interest stories about federally paid workers being laid off. And then when this nonsense gets settled and we'll go back and retroactively pay them for not working

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by stevew

I'm going to enjoy all the human interest stories about federally paid workers being laid off. And then when this nonsense gets settled and we'll go back and retroactively pay them for not working

So....how do all these federal workers pay their mortgage/rent and car payments and utilities?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Dutch

So....how do all these federal workers pay their mortgage/rent and car payments and utilities?

Or you, as a taxpayer, should be asking if the government can keep functioning without those people, so we really need to be employing them as part of our government? There's a balance to be struck there, but I'm not sure we're hitting the right balance currently.

[claphamsa]

Originally Posted by stevew

I'm going to enjoy all the human interest stories about federally paid workers being laid off. And then when this nonsense gets settled and we'll go back and retroactively pay them for not working

no one is getting laid off, were getting furloughed, which is intermittent, but you still have a job.

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Or you, as a taxpayer, should be asking if the government can keep functioning without those people, so we really need to be employing them as part of our government? There's a balance to be struck there, but I'm not sure we're hitting the right balance currently.

the governemnt cant. which is the crux of it.

[stevew]

Nobody should get furloughed...I'm tired of congress being unable to accomplish goals and dicking with people's wages. If you'll retroactively pay, how about cutting out the middle man and never stop paying.

Youngstown local news is the worst.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Or you, as a taxpayer, should be asking if the government can keep functioning without those people, so we really need to be employing them as part of our government? There's a balance to be struck there, but I'm not sure we're hitting the right balance currently.

Agreed.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by panerd

Yawn. We have been off the gold standard for like forty years. The liberal urban legend is that it is a relic from the 1800's. It was a way to keep your country from going sixteen trillion in debt and from having George Bush start two wars he couldn't pay for and a way to not have the country "held hostage" over the debt limit debate. But it always funny to throw out one liners when you obviously don't really understand its purpose either. But maybe you heard Bill Maher say a "gold standard" funny joke one time.

And anyways I was really responding to rainmaker being a bit of an asshole and using the term shiny metal to imply how stupid I am. Like gold has no fucking value for the last couple thousand years.

Looking beyond your little pissing match here.....

What's the libertarian view on the gold standard and the role it played in the Great Depression? And that the countries that abandoned it tended to recover more quickly?

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by stevew

Nobody should get furloughed...I'm tired of congress being unable to accomplish goals and dicking with people's wages. If you'll retroactively pay, how about cutting out the middle man and never stop paying.

Youngstown local news is the worst.

Ooooh, talk about middle man, here's one for you. I work for a small unit that is not supported by our larger commands. We were buying software off the shelf and I wanted a licensing agreement with Microsoft. Since I am military, I cannot go straight to Microsoft to negotiate this agreement since they are a single-source vendor. I have to go through my base contracting office (government civilians) who also cannot go directly through Microsoft (again, because you cannot go to a single-source vendor). So Microsoft has set up a partnership with Dell (for instance although they have like 8 or 10 such partnerships to get around the "single-source" thing) who can arrange for the contracting office to purchase Microsoft licensing through Dell. However, laws and regulations have since been re-written so that we cannot go through large business first, we must go through a small business, but Microsoft doesn't operate directly with small businesses when dealing with the government, but Dell does, so a small business works with Dell. New regulations also state that it's just plain easier if you go through a minority owned/ veteran owned / disabled owned / female owned small business. Those companies get a 15% markup and will deal directly with the other small business that will work with the big business that deals with the single-source vendor. The entire time, the only people that have a clue as to what I want is Microsoft and the military. All those other companies and government agencies are adding their own fees to the contract just to pass quotes back and forth between me and Microsoft. All of those shenanigans are paid by you, the taxpayer, so the politcians can feel good about the regulations they've put into place.

To recap, I wanted X number of licenses for Microsoft OS, SQL, System Center and Core Server support. I really should be able to go to MS directly to pay for it all, but I couldn't. Mind you, nobody knew what my unit needed other than Microsoft and the unit.

So the military should've cut a check to Microsoft. But all these companies got paid. Military Unit (Buyer) --> Government Contracting (Months of salary payment for employees) --> Vet/Minority/Female owned small business (paid fee for service) --> IT Small Business (paid fee for service) --> IT Big Business (paid fee for service) --> Microsoft (paid for licenses purchased)

That process took 8 months. I could've done it directly with Microsoft with-in a week. The system is broken.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Dutch

To recap, I wanted X number of licenses for Microsoft OS, SQL, System Center and Core Server support. I really should be able to go to MS directly to pay for it all, but I couldn't. Mind you, nobody knew what my unit needed other than Microsoft and the unit.

So the military should've cut a check to Microsoft. But all these companies got paid. Military Unit (Buyer) --> Government Contracting (Months of salary payment for employees) --> Vet/Minority/Female owned small business (paid fee for service) --> IT Small Business (paid fee for service) --> IT Big Business (paid fee for service) --> Microsoft (paid for licenses purchased)

That process took 8 months. I could've done it directly with Microsoft with-in a week. The system is broken.

I saw the same exact screwed-up process in the USDA during my time there. It was amazing how many hoops we had to jump through and how many times we were receiving software after it was 2+ years in the market. It's embarrassing. We'd make jokes about it all the time in meetings only because there was nothing you could do about it other than laugh.

[Buccaneer]

When governements talk about "cutting the red tape", all that means is instead of 100 yards of it, it goes down to 95 yards. and then new legislation/budgets would add 10 more to it because it can. Smart cuts can come in streamlining processes but somehow that has become one big sacred cow with everyone (Congresspersons, department management, Union reps, etc.) all more interested in protecting their turf regardless of value. It apparently is better to maintain 15 divisions when 2 would do. Why do you think it's more important to maintain the status quo and poor ROI and to be afraid of institutional and process changes?

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Ooooh, talk about middle man, here's one for you. I work for a small unit that is not supported by our larger commands. We were buying software off the shelf and I wanted a licensing agreement with Microsoft. Since I am military, I cannot go straight to Microsoft to negotiate this agreement since they are a single-source vendor. I have to go through my base contracting office (government civilians) who also cannot go directly through Microsoft (again, because you cannot go to a single-source vendor). So Microsoft has set up a partnership with Dell (for instance although they have like 8 or 10 such partnerships to get around the "single-source" thing) who can arrange for the contracting office to purchase Microsoft licensing through Dell. However, laws and regulations have since been re-written so that we cannot go through large business first, we must go through a small business, but Microsoft doesn't operate directly with small businesses when dealing with the government, but Dell does, so a small business works with Dell. New regulations also state that it's just plain easier if you go through a minority owned/ veteran owned / disabled owned / female owned small business. Those companies get a 15% markup and will deal directly with the other small business that will work with the big business that deals with the single-source vendor. The entire time, the only people that have a clue as to what I want is Microsoft and the military. All those other companies and government agencies are adding their own fees to the contract just to pass quotes back and forth between me and Microsoft. All of those shenanigans are paid by you, the taxpayer, so the politcians can feel good about the regulations they've put into place.

To recap, I wanted X number of licenses for Microsoft OS, SQL, System Center and Core Server support. I really should be able to go to MS directly to pay for it all, but I couldn't. Mind you, nobody knew what my unit needed other than Microsoft and the unit.

So the military should've cut a check to Microsoft. But all these companies got paid. Military Unit (Buyer) --> Government Contracting (Months of salary payment for employees) --> Vet/Minority/Female owned small business (paid fee for service) --> IT Small Business (paid fee for service) --> IT Big Business (paid fee for service) --> Microsoft (paid for licenses purchased)

That process took 8 months. I could've done it directly with Microsoft with-in a week. The system is broken.

But how do you fix that when every media outlet will go crazy because the government is spending like crazy without a bidding process or oversight? I'd agree the above scenario is nuts, but fixing it would require people to accept some level of corruption. All of the above inefficiencies were put in place to stop mostly trivial examples of corruption.

[albionmoonlight]

Don't confuse furloughs with a government shut-down. Government shut-downs, people have tended to get paid retroactively. Furloughs people don't get back.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

But how do you fix that when every media outlet will go crazy because the government is spending like crazy without a bidding process or oversight? I'd agree the above scenario is nuts, but fixing it would require people to accept some level of corruption. All of the above inefficiencies were put in place to stop mostly trivial examples of corruption.

There is definately no "one size fits all" solution. But yes, the media has no play here, so there's that.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by panerd

I think you are confusing Gary Johnson who left office with a budget surplus with Bill Richardson one of the big names in the Democratic Party. Do some research on New Mexico again and we will discuss your other nonsense. Like the shiny metal that almost every intelligent investor holds as part of their portfolio or how quantitative easing is so complicated the common man can't possibly grasp and that it certainly isn't just a fancy way of printing money.

No, I'm not confusing the two. Scroll down to New Mexico and the years Gary Johnson was in office.

Federal Taxes Paid vs. Federal Spending Received by State, 1981-2005 | Tax Foundation

New Mexico was able to balance their budget in part thanks to tax dollars from other states. Like I said, New Mexico is and was a welfare state that can't support itself.

You know what every major investor has in their portfolio too? US treasuries.

[claphamsa]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Ooooh, talk about middle man, here's one for you. I work for a small unit that is not supported by our larger commands. We were buying software off the shelf and I wanted a licensing agreement with Microsoft. Since I am military, I cannot go straight to Microsoft to negotiate this agreement since they are a single-source vendor. I have to go through my base contracting office (government civilians) who also cannot go directly through Microsoft (again, because you cannot go to a single-source vendor). So Microsoft has set up a partnership with Dell (for instance although they have like 8 or 10 such partnerships to get around the "single-source" thing) who can arrange for the contracting office to purchase Microsoft licensing through Dell. However, laws and regulations have since been re-written so that we cannot go through large business first, we must go through a small business, but Microsoft doesn't operate directly with small businesses when dealing with the government, but Dell does, so a small business works with Dell. New regulations also state that it's just plain easier if you go through a minority owned/ veteran owned / disabled owned / female owned small business. Those companies get a 15% markup and will deal directly with the other small business that will work with the big business that deals with the single-source vendor. The entire time, the only people that have a clue as to what I want is Microsoft and the military. All those other companies and government agencies are adding their own fees to the contract just to pass quotes back and forth between me and Microsoft. All of those shenanigans are paid by you, the taxpayer, so the politcians can feel good about the regulations they've put into place.

To recap, I wanted X number of licenses for Microsoft OS, SQL, System Center and Core Server support. I really should be able to go to MS directly to pay for it all, but I couldn't. Mind you, nobody knew what my unit needed other than Microsoft and the unit.

So the military should've cut a check to Microsoft. But all these companies got paid. Military Unit (Buyer) --> Government Contracting (Months of salary payment for employees) --> Vet/Minority/Female owned small business (paid fee for service) --> IT Small Business (paid fee for service) --> IT Big Business (paid fee for service) --> Microsoft (paid for licenses purchased)

That process took 8 months. I could've done it directly with Microsoft with-in a week. The system is broken.

should have been able to go strait through the pentagon...

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by panerd

Yawn. We have been off the gold standard for like forty years. The liberal urban legend is that it is a relic from the 1800's. It was a way to keep your country from going sixteen trillion in debt and from having George Bush start two wars he couldn't pay for and a way to not have the country "held hostage" over the debt limit debate. But it always funny to throw out one liners when you obviously don't really understand its purpose either. But maybe you heard Bill Maher say a "gold standard" funny joke one time.

And anyways I was really responding to rainmaker being a bit of an asshole and using the term shiny metal to imply how stupid I am. Like gold has no fucking value for the last couple thousand years.

I don't get this. We've seen massive global economic prosperity since the gold standard was dropped. Our inflation rate at this time is really low. What is your concern here?

Here is why the gold standard is stupid and why almost every economist on the planet agrees. You have no control over the wealth of your own nation. It doesn't matter if the people in your country are innovative, hard-working, and resourceful. All that matters is what is the price of gold.

And therein lies the rub. China can start hoarding all the gold they can come across and inflate your currency. And then they can release it all one day and deflate it. You don't have control over the value of your own currency which is incredibly dangerous.

Now the one advantage is reduced debt. Although I think there are much better ways to reduce debt than destroying your own economy. The gold standard would severely hamper growth, cause wild fluctuations in good and bad times, and put us well behind the industrialized world.

Like I asked, how far behind other countries do you want us to be?

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by claphamsa

should have been able to go strait through the pentagon...

You would think so...but that's not a one-size fits all either apparently.

[claphamsa]

Originally Posted by Dutch

You would think so...but that's not a one-size fits all either apparently.

that's unfortunate, I know a number of people in defense contracting, and they think it works kinda well (comparability). you must be in some kind of weird command!

[RainMaker]

If you ever want to see bureaucratic nonsense firsthand, try and build something on your land. It is almost comical.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by claphamsa

that's unfortunate, I know a number of people in defense contracting, and they think it works kinda well (comparability). you must be in some kind of weird command!

When I was with the big Air Force in Europe it worked like a champ. If you were an AF unit in Europe (USAFE), you were covered. The same for the Army units in EUCOM. But what happens when you are a direct reporting unit for two seperate combatant commands and both of them tell you you aren't covered by them "so go check with the other command"? Yup....I went out and bought my own damned license agreement. That's the only reason I know why it was such a pain in the ass.

[stevew]

4 branches of service and the coast guard seems like a giant bureaucratic nonsense in the posr modern era. Seems like jettisoning the marines and air force would save some money.

[Dutch]

That would definately save money in the short-term and would also put us on equal footing with about 50 or 75 other nations. Not sure we should do that without seriously analyzing the long-term threat that produces to our way of life. And to be clear, our way of life is pretty amazing compared to most of the planet.

This brings up a great segway though, the conversation shouldn't be about taking away funding from citizens that provide America a service, that make us strong and make our enormous wealth secure, it should be a more universal discussion about being realistic as to what each citizen can, should and will sacrifice for the sake of our great nation.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

If you ever want to see bureaucratic nonsense firsthand, try and build something on your land. It is almost comical.

Do you have a permit for that comment?