The August Presidential Poll

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by stevew

Completely abolish the senate or change the terms to 2 years.

I think there needs to be a 6 year vs 2 year term. I don't want 2 bodies of government that turn over every 2 years at the whim of the populace (read: economy). I think that part of the equation needs to stay the same.

SI

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

I think there needs to be a 6 year vs 2 year term. I don't want 2 bodies of government that turn over every 2 years at the whim of the populace (read: economy). I think that part of the equation needs to stay the same.

SI

I agree. That is what the Senate should be. A more senior, deliberative body that isn't constantly campaigning. BUT, it should be more representative of the nation at large. We don't need cows and fields to be over-represented.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

No, it really isn't. A non-vote isn't a vote for anyone. A vote for a specific candidate is a vote for that candidate, period - the viability of the party has nothing to do with it. The stated approach implies that people are responsible for how others vote, assuming that they will always vote for one of the major-party candidates. But you can't be responsible for what other people do that you have nothing to do with. You can only be responsible for what you do, and whether you vote for the best candidate available or you don't.

Not just in voting, but as a whole, I strongly disagree with the bolded words and believe that prevailing sentiment has a lot to do with where we are as a society.

SI

[Hammer]

This poll is awesome. I take it you guys never voted for Trump, or has he fallen in popularity that much?

Is there mileage in the notion educated people will be very unlikely to vote for him?

He is consistently ridiculed in the UK.

[kingfc22]

Originally Posted by Hammer

This poll is awesome. I take it you guys never voted for Trump, or has he fallen in popularity that much?

Is there mileage in the notion educated people will be very unlikely to vote for him?

He is consistently ridiculed in the UK.

40% of our amazing American colleagues will vote for him regardless of anything.

Like the 🍊🤡 said from the beginning. He could shoot somebody on 5th Ave and get away with it.

[PilotMan]

It might be because the people who supported trump have gone elsewhere, but just looking at the final poll from 2016 here, it looks like 3rd party has retained, and trump has about half the support that he did back then.

My mom, a ardent Christian, North Dakotan, and lifelong R, and essentially an anti-abortion voter, voted for him and will not again. She can't stand him.

My dad and step mom, both who used to be fairly centrist independents (right leaning though), both in Texas, but from Cali, have become all in trump supporters. They swung hard during the "Obama hates the military" phase of Fox News. There's no world they don't vote for trump again.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Hammer

This poll is awesome. I take it you guys never voted for Trump, or has he fallen in popularity that much?

Is there mileage in the notion educated people will be very unlikely to vote for him?

He is consistently ridiculed in the UK.

It is true he has much support from the lesser educated but I work for a global professional services firm. Most of them pretty highly educated and when we talked about it, there were a fair number of Trump supporters.

They cynics will say they are voting for their pocket books but reality is they were voting for change from politics-as-usual and anti-Hillary. Whether they still support Trump now, don't know but suspect there is less of them now.

Like it or not, Trump struck a chord. And no, not the racist, white nationalist chord although that certainly played a role for a minority.

How's Boris doing nowadays?

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by RendeR

in the system we have a vote for the third fourth or tenth parties or no vote at all is literally helping limit the votes and therefore your opponent, depending on which side you are on.

No it isn't. The votes of the people who vote for the officials who are trying to limit those votes, and the actions of those officials are what does that. This is exactly what I was talking about; it's effectively electoral projection. It's interesting as well btw how fear-mongering it is, while being decried by generally the same people who complain about other forms of fear-mongering in modern American politics.

[Brian Swartz]

Dola,

Originally Posted by Hammer

This poll is awesome. I take it you guys never voted for Trump, or has he fallen in popularity that much?

60% of the other poll was for Clinton, and there was a stronger third-party percentage. So pretty much this board was never close to being pro-Trump at any point.

Originally Posted by Edward64

Like it or not, Trump struck a chord.

Yep. And as I've said before, we still aren't reckoning squarely with why that was.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

I strongly disagree with the bolded words and believe that prevailing sentiment has a lot to do with where we are as a society.

I'd like to explore that idea more if you are willing to. I think you're a reasonable and intelligent person based on what you've posted on the boards here. Let's take a common, everyday example - and feel free to jettison this and use a different analogy if you prefer.

If someone loses their keys, who if anyone is responsible for that and why?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Edward64

They cynics will say they are voting for their pocket books but reality is they were voting for change from politics-as-usual and anti-Hillary. Whether they still support Trump now, don't know but suspect there is less of them now.

Now that they have seen what change from politics as usual looks like if they still vote for him they either aren't as smart as you think they are or they like the hate. Or maybe think he will get the economy back on track at some point.

I can understand a Trump vote in 2016 based on anti-establishment, if you look around and see the results and still vote for him. Eh....

[spleen1015]

I know some folks who voted for Hilary who are all in on Trump now. They have retired since 2016 and they believe he is good for their 401k. They don't care about anything else when it comes to politics.

They are in the 'all politicians are dirty' camp.

[CU Tiger]

I voted Trump in 16.
I don't think I will again.
I know I won't vote for Biden.

As of today I'm 50% 3rd party 30% may just abstain 20% Trump...

I don't agree with a lot of Trump, I think he makes a mockery of the office, I think he's a moron. I think he's unqualified. But I think he's unequivocally better than Biden.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

I voted Trump in 16.
I don't think I will again.
I know I won't vote for Biden.

As of today I'm 50% 3rd party 30% may just abstain 20% Trump...

I don't agree with a lot of Trump, I think he makes a mockery of the office, I think he's a moron. I think he's unqualified. But I think he's unequivocally better than Biden.

I'm kind of 75% Jo Jorgensen and 25% Biden right now.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

I voted Trump in 16.
I don't think I will again.
I know I won't vote for Biden.

As of today I'm 50% 3rd party 30% may just abstain 20% Trump...

I don't agree with a lot of Trump, I think he makes a mockery of the office, I think he's a moron. I think he's unqualified. But I think he's unequivocally better than Biden.

Do you get a feel from any others you may know that voted Trump in 2016 that some of them are leaning 3rd party, or not voting?

I only ask because I felt similar in 2016, no way I was ever voting Trump, couldn't bring myself to vote Hillary, so went 3rd party. That was my first third party vote ever and I had voted republican 5 times and democrat 3 prior.

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

I only ask because I felt similar in 2016, no way I was ever voting Trump, couldn't bring myself to vote Hillary, so went 3rd party. That was my first third party vote ever and I had voted republican 5 times and democrat 3 prior.

That's similar to my voting history. I'm older than most folks on here, and in presidential elections I've voted 6 times Democrat, 4 times Republican and one 3rd party. I voted for Gary Johnson in 2016 because I couldn't stomach either candidate, and it's the same for me in 2020. I cannot choose between a misogynistic megalomaniac and a senile old man trying to run out the clock and limp over the finish line in his 3rd presidential campaign in 32 years.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

That's similar to my voting history. I'm older than most folks on here, and in presidential elections I've voted 6 times Democrat, 4 times Republican and one 3rd party. I voted for Gary Johnson in 2016 because I couldn't stomach either candidate, and it's the same for me in 2020. I cannot choose between a misogynistic megalomaniac and a senile old man trying to limp over the finish line in his 3rd presidential campaign in 32 years.

I am a little worried about Biden and senility setting in during his 4 years. I don't think Trump is senile, he has other problems but would also worry about him during another 4 years.

Biden has a long history of bumbling words so don't think that is an indicator now. But gods, his make-up team needs to make him look less old.

[JPhillips]

Senile is horseshit.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I am a little worried about Biden and senility setting in during his 4 years. I don't think Trump is senile, he has other problems but would also worry about him during another 4 years.

Biden has a long history of bumbling words so don't think that is an indicator now. But gods, his make-up team needs to make him look less old.

I should add. The Soviet opinion is in.

[Ryche]

If senility is a concern, I would say Trump has definitely moved in that direction in the past 4 years. Trump in the Republican primaries was far sharper than the version today.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

I voted Trump in 16.
I don't think I will again.
I know I won't vote for Biden.

As of today I'm 50% 3rd party 30% may just abstain 20% Trump...

I don't agree with a lot of Trump, I think he makes a mockery of the office, I think he's a moron. I think he's unqualified. But I think he's unequivocally better than Biden.

Sorry don't mean to criticize your opinion, but I just don't understand how you could ever consider voting for a moron, unqualified, person who's made a mockery of the office and wants to be a full-out dictator if he wins in November over someone who pretty clearly won't be any of that, and an America who won't let him be any of that after four years of Trump.

I wasn't too thrilled he won the Dem nomination over some others, but you are really going to vote for someone who has handled the virus by trying to ignore it as much as possible while so many Americans have died, and even now is trying to disrupt voting by mail because he thinks it'll help him win? Are you really in favor of any that over Biden? Are you not at a point where it has to be country over party?

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

Do you get a feel from any others you may know that voted Trump in 2016 that some of them are leaning 3rd party, or not voting?

I only ask because I felt similar in 2016, no way I was ever voting Trump, couldn't bring myself to vote Hillary, so went 3rd party. That was my first third party vote ever and I had voted republican 5 times and democrat 3 prior.

Ive got some varied contacts, Im a poor judge in this regard.
I have a bunch of work colleagues who were Trump in 16 and still Trump
I know at last 2 who were Trump but are now claiming to support Biden

I know a few who are exactly like me (strangely this group is probably my closest - uhhh. what I's consider genuine Christians)

And probably strangest Ive got an employee who voted Clinton in 16 but is vocally and almost toxicly to our office supporting Trump. (A Bi-Racial Female if that matters)

Originally Posted by Thomkal

Sorry don't mean to criticize your opinion, but I just don't understand how you could ever consider voting for a moron, unqualified, person who's made a mockery of the office and wants to be a full-out dictator if he wins in November over someone who pretty clearly won't be any of that, and an America who won't let him be any of that after four years of Trump.

I wasn't too thrilled he won the Dem nomination over some others, but you are really going to vote for someone who has handled the virus by trying to ignore it as much as possible while so many Americans have died, and even now is trying to disrupt voting by mail because he thinks it'll help him win? Are you really in favor of any that over Biden? Are you not at a point where it has to be country over party?

No need to apologize. I'm a big boy. I can take an attack on my beliefs without it affecting my personal perception of you and certainly not impacting my self worth. Reasonable minds can disagree, and while we differ greatly philosophically Ive always found you mostly reasonable albeit much more impassioned than I tend to trend.

I'm just going to ignore the second paragraph because it reads like an overly impassioned sales pitch to me.

But In short, I'll answer your first question by saying I dont concede the bolded as factual. And Id further suggest if America wont allow anyone to be any of that, then they wont allow it from Trump either.

Frankly, and man this is a dangerous statement on this board, while I disagree entirely with his "form" - I am actually supportive of much (THOUGH CERTAINLY NOT ALL) of Trump's function through 4 years.

We can debate and derail, but lets not, history shows we will never agree nor convince each other to change.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Ryche

If senility is a concern, I would say Trump has definitely moved in that direction in the past 4 years. Trump in the Republican primaries was far sharper than the version today.

Yeah, I just don't see how anyone looks at both candidates and says Biden is the more senile one. I know it's an attack that has been raised against Biden, but it only serves to benefit him when he gives a speech (esp the DNC speech). It was a bad tactical move by the Trump team (as it was by the Sanders fans - when the last Dem debate was between Biden vs Sanders, Biden not only held his own but won that debate).

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

Ive got some varied contacts, Im a poor judge in this regard.
I have a bunch of work colleagues who were Trump in 16 and still Trump
I know at last 2 who were Trump but are now claiming to support Biden

I know a few who are exactly like me (strangely this group is probably my closest - uhhh. what I's consider genuine Christians)

And probably strangest Ive got an employee who voted Clinton in 16 but is vocally and almost toxicly to our office supporting Trump. (A Bi-Racial Female if that matters)


No need to apologize. I'm a big boy. I can take an attack on my beliefs without it affecting my personal perception of you and certainly not impacting my self worth. Reasonable minds can disagree, and while we differ greatly philosophically Ive always found you mostly reasonable albeit much more impassioned than I tend to trend.

I'm just going to ignore the second paragraph because it reads like an overly impassioned sales pitch to me.

But In short, I'll answer your first question by saying I dont concede the bolded as factual. And Id further suggest if America wont allow anyone to be any of that, then they wont allow it from Trump either.

Frankly, and man this is a dangerous statement on this board, while I disagree entirely with his "form" - I am actually supportive of much (THOUGH CERTAINLY NOT ALL) of Trump's function through 4 years.

We can debate and derail, but lets not, history shows we will never agree nor convince each other to change.

Fair Enough

[Brian Swartz]

On the senility thing, I do think Biden is more senile but it's one of those cases where it really doesn't matter in terms of comparing Biden and Trump. I think it's very obvious that Biden is mentally not the man he was 20 or 30 years ago, but it's sort of one of those things where you get the impression he forgets more every week than Trump knows about the issues that matter. I.e., given the choice I'd take the senile guy over the one in the clueless/blowhard/etc. category as a matter of course, because the senile one still has one heck of a lot more cogent moments.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

On the senility thing, I do think Biden is more senile but it's one of those cases where it really doesn't matter in terms of comparing Biden and Trump. I think it's very obvious that Biden is mentally not the man he was 20 or 30 years ago, but it's sort of one of those things where you get the impression he forgets more every week than Trump knows about the issues that matter. I.e., given the choice I'd take the senile guy over the one in the clueless/blowhard/etc. category as a matter of course, because the senile one still has one heck of a lot more cogent moments.

As you know, I like to level set on definitions and came to realize I didn't know the real definition of senility. There seems to be many different definitions and confusion with dementia.

Not going into it because I haven't done a in-depth read yet but I would proposed to forum members that maybe we want to use the word "dementia" vs "senility".

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

On the senility thing, I do think Biden is more senile but it's one of those cases where it really doesn't matter in terms of comparing Biden and Trump. I think it's very obvious that Biden is mentally not the man he was 20 or 30 years ago, but it's sort of one of those things where you get the impression he forgets more every week than Trump knows about the issues that matter. I.e., given the choice I'd take the senile guy over the one in the clueless/blowhard/etc. category as a matter of course, because the senile one still has one heck of a lot more cogent moments.

No better line sums this up.

Of equal importance, Biden will surround himself with a diverse set of competent people and give credence to their input. Something Trump has rarely done and he knows the game well enough not to be led like a puppy by those that do have his ear, down rabbit holes that reflect that individuals agenda over the best course for the country.

I also believe he will include people on his cabinet that represent both sides of the aisle, at least to a moderate degree and he has respect of people on the other side of the aisle. Something that is hard for Trump to invoke, at least on a sincere level, in his own party.

I do not think Biden is the best man for the job at this point in his career, but he is not an incompetent fool and he is the best choice for the future of this country.

[JPhillips]

Again, senile is horseshit. All you need to do is watch one interview or one speech and it's clear that Biden isn't senile. Arguing he is senile, or just casually throwing it around like it's common knowledge is akin to me saying Trump is a lizard person. There's no evidence to support the claim and plenty of evidence proving it isn't true.

Biden is older and I wish both candidates were from a younger generation, but he's not mentally compromised and saying so is a lie.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

Of equal importance, Biden will surround himself with a diverse set of competent people and give credence to their input. Something Trump has rarely done and he knows the game well enough not to be led like a puppy by those that do have his ear, down rabbit holes that reflect that individuals agenda over the best course for the country.

This is well said. I do think Biden will surround himself with competent people and he will listen. I also really, really hope he includes Kamala in all things, that they have the closest ever President-VP bond and working relationship.

Sorry to say but, it's more real to me than ever before, that Kamala has to be ready to step in at any given moment.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

But In short, I'll answer your first question by saying I dont concede the bolded as factual. And Id further suggest if America wont allow anyone to be any of that, then they wont allow it from Trump either.

I think there is a segment of America that absolutely would, as long as it was their guy — and Trump is their guy.

[Izulde]

If the Republican nominee was literally anyone other than Trump, I'd be voting third party. But he's that dangerous to the country imo that I'd vote for a rotting turnip over him.

[thesloppy]

Hold on.....tell me more about this turnip.

[fortheglory]

Why is this forum so left leaning?

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by fortheglory

Why is this forum so left leaning?

I think more than political views, it's just just recognition of how totally incompetent Trump is and how full of shit he is.

[spleen1015]

This board is very left leaning. I have felt in the past that I don't necessarily fit in here because of that.

Not saying that is a bad thing.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by fortheglory

Why is this forum so left leaning?

We have radical left, moderate/centrist left, moderate/centrist right, and radical right.

There is no doubt there is a larger % of radical left than radical right. I don't think the radical left are a majority on this forum, its just that they post so much that it often overwhelms what I call the moderate/centrist.

I do think in the past it was more balanced but the radical left have taken over by posting count.

[PilotMan]

The right has moved so far right that Nixon would be called a Socialist.

[thesloppy]

I think prolonged exposure to my correct opinions eventually sank through to most of our formerly conservative posters.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

senile is horseshit. All you need to do is watch one interview or one speech and it's clear that Biden isn't senile.

I think it's true because of the speeches and interviews I've seen from Biden in the past 6-12 months, not in spite of them. The difference between now and most of the rest of his career is stark. It's not a lie and the continued insistence on assassinating the motives of people who assess facts differently is just sad.

[PilotMan]

Biden was an idiot 12 years ago. Don't give him that much credit.

[albionmoonlight]

I've wondered why a board that is mostly white male sports fans tends to lean left (which we do). It does seem a bit odd.

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

The right has moved so far right that Nixon would be called a Socialist.

Similarly, the left has moved so far left that JFK would be called a right-wing fascist.

Supply side economics, stressed the need for a balanced budget, hawkish national defense policy, favored free trade, called abortion "repugnant", and proposed welfare policy stressing “training for useful work instead of prolonged dependency.” (Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country)

The Kennedy tax cuts, passed by the House in September 1963 and by the Senate after Kennedy’s death, cut the top individual income tax rate to 70% from 91% (Kennedy had wanted the income tax rate lowered to 65% and the long-term capital gains rate cut to 19.5% from 25).

[JPhillips]

I'll take the Kennedy income tax rates right now even if that makes me a right wing nut job.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

I think it's true because of the speeches and interviews I've seen from Biden in the past 6-12 months, not in spite of them. The difference between now and most of the rest of his career is stark. It's not a lie and the continued insistence on assassinating the motives of people who assess facts differently is just sad.

Bullshit.

VP Speech

Coronavirus Speech

Calling him senile has no basis is fact.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

Supply side economics, stressed the need for a balanced budget, hawkish national defense policy, favored free trade, called abortion "repugnant", and proposed welfare policy stressing “training for useful work instead of prolonged dependency.” (Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country)

You could argue Biden has acted & legistlated more in line with traditional conservative values than Trump, in regards to most of the issues you've singled out, wherever that fits in this conversation.

I guess I would suggest that matters of trade, debt & foreign/military policy have recently been proven to not be the pillars of belief that either party/side had long suggested, and instead these days someone's political leaning are more likely defined by their opinions about immigration, taxes and/or welfare (whereas the traditional single-issue stuff like gun & birth control has remained pretty constant & unchallenged).

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Edward64

We have radical left, moderate/centrist left, moderate/centrist right, and radical right.

There is no doubt there is a larger % of radical left than radical right. I don't think the radical left are a majority on this forum, its just that they post so much that it often overwhelms what I call the moderate/centrist.

I do think in the past it was more balanced but the radical left have taken over by posting count.

Edward I think you fall to the right of center and me to the left of center and though sometimes your request for sourcing drives me crazy I agree with your points here quite a bit.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I've wondered why a board that is mostly white male sports fans tends to lean left (which we do). It does seem a bit odd.

We are a batch of largely nerdy sports fans. Connect the dots from there.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Bullshit.

VP Speech

Coronavirus Speech

Calling him senile has no basis is fact.

Exactly. It's as bullshit claim. Someone slowing down as they get older is not senility. Not to mention Biden can give a speech better than Trump could ever give one.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

Similarly, the left has moved so far left that JFK would be called a right-wing fascist.

Supply side economics, stressed the need for a balanced budget, hawkish national defense policy, favored free trade, called abortion "repugnant", and proposed welfare policy stressing “training for useful work instead of prolonged dependency.” (Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country)

I mean that's mostly Biden's resume. Though, may I point out that Kennedy's Revenue Act of 1964 was because he embraced Keynesian economics and wasn't interested in balanced budgets. Whereas Biden's career has been as deficit hawk. Biden has recently proposed large spending in response to the major economic crisis (which is when we'd want to run deficits). Obama-Biden Administration famously pushed for the TPP as well (and Biden may be the only major free trader politician left these days it seems).

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Calling him senile has no basis is fact.

The facts I'm talking about are situations like telling South Carolina primary voters he was running for the Senate not the Presidency, repeatedly forgetting Obama's name, getting the venue or even state where he's speaking wrong, forgetting how many years there are until the election, etc. Gaffes happen and politicians lie. This isn't that. This is somebody unable to recall basic facts that they interact with on a regular basis.

A Zogby poll earlier this summer found 55% of people thought Biden was in the early stages of dementia, including over half of independents and a third of Democrats. This isn't just some bizarre right-wing conspiracy talking point. If it was totally without foundation, a third of his own party and a majority of independents wouldn't think there was validity to it.