MLB: Have we seen the best - Page 2

Pumpy Tudors · 07-12-2006, 11:01 AM

Wait, why did you guys stop talking about Greg Gagne?

Franklinnoble · 07-12-2006, 11:01 AM

Cal Ripken Jr. was the greatest SS of all time.

oykib · 07-12-2006, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

Cal Ripken Jr. was the greatest SS of all time.

If A-Rod never plays another inning at short, he's still better than Cal.

That's not even getting into Honus Wagner's career.

st.cronin · 07-12-2006, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

Wait, why did you guys stop talking about Greg Gagne?

That's actually who I thought they were talking about! Anyway, he couldn't hold a candle to Spike Owen.

Pumpy Tudors · 07-12-2006, 11:17 AM

Comedy response:

We have certainly seen the greatest players at EVERY offensive position in the past 20 years, and I really do mean "offensive!"

C - Benny Distefano (As far as I know, he's the last lefthanded guy to catch in MLB, even if it was only in 3 games in 1989)
1B - Nick Esasky (You spin me right round, baby!)
2B - Nelson Liriano (.409 batting average in 1991)
3B - Kelly Gruber (Don't argue with me on this)
SS - Andres Thomas (Bobbleheads are the cool thing this decade, but Thomas made "bobble hands" popular in the '80s)
OF - Joe Orsulak (Woo, remember that studly year he had with the Marlins? Me neither!)
OF - Gary Pettis (That boy run so good, you wished he knew how to get on base more often)
OF - Derek Bell (Obviously)

Come on, what are we arguing here, guys?

Franklinnoble · 07-12-2006, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oykib

If A-Rod never plays another inning at short, he's still better than Cal.

You blaspheme.

Pumpy Tudors · 07-12-2006, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by st.cronin

That's actually who I thought they were talking about! Anyway, he couldn't hold a candle to Spike Owen.

I bet Spike Owen and Tom Foley got into some awesome brawls in that Montreal locker room. Those guys were bad-ass.

st.cronin · 07-12-2006, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

Comedy response:

We have certainly seen the greatest players at EVERY offensive position in the past 20 years, and I really do mean "offensive!"

C - Benny Distefano (As far as I know, he's the last lefthanded guy to catch in MLB, even if it was only in 3 games in 1989)
1B - Nick Esasky (You spin me right round, baby!)
2B - Nelson Liriano (.409 batting average in 1991)
3B - Kelly Gruber (Don't argue with me on this)
SS - Andres Thomas (Bobbleheads are the cool thing this decade, but Thomas made "bobble hands" popular in the '80s)
OF - Joe Orsulak (Woo, remember that studly year he had with the Marlins? Me neither!)
OF - Gary Pettis (That boy run so good, you wished he knew how to get on base more often)
OF - Derek Bell (Obviously)

Come on, what are we arguing here, guys?

Not a bad list. I would go with Tom O'Malley at 3B, and add this pitching staff:

SP - Bobby Witt
SP - Joe Cowley
SP - Dennis Rasmussen
SP - Al Nipper
RP - Mark Eichorn
RP - Wes Gardner
RP - Ray Searage
RP - Juan Berenguer

Ramzavail · 07-12-2006, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by st.cronin

I honestly believe that Rickey Henderson is the greatest player of the last 50 years.

Me and a couple of friends believe this as well.

At least, I think he's the best offensive player in my lifetime.

Ramzavail · 07-12-2006, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

SS - Andres Thomas (Bobbleheads are the cool thing this decade, but Thomas made "bobble hands" popular in the '80s)

That is just hilarious.

Pumpy Tudors · 07-12-2006, 11:30 AM

st.cronin is a real man, guys. He knows what he's talking about.

I'd like to give big ups to my main Daves, too: Dave Magadan and Dave Hansen. Watching those guys jump from 1B to 3B again and again reminded me of my days playing Frog Bog on my Intellivision.

Also, mad props to Gerald Perry, former Braves/Royals/Cardinals first baseman, only because his batting stance made him look like he was going to beat the fuck out of anyone who came within 20 feet of him.

st.cronin · 07-12-2006, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

Also, mad props to Gerald Perry, former Braves/Royals/Cardinals first baseman, only because his batting stance made him look like he was going to beat the fuck out of anyone who came within 20 feet of him.

The baseball was usually safe from harm, though.

Pumpy Tudors · 07-12-2006, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by st.cronin

The baseball was usually safe from harm, though.

I set 'em up, you knock 'em down.

Maple Leafs · 07-12-2006, 12:26 PM

Kelly Gruber was awesome.

Pumpy Tudors · 07-12-2006, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Kelly Gruber was awesome.

Hair Canada, baby.

DanGarion · 07-12-2006, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Galt

Your homerism really is incredible sometimes. The titles matter because of Rivera's role in them. These are his career post-season stats:

111.2 IP, 0.81 ERA, 34 Saves, 8 Wins, 1 Loss.

Was he the closer in 95 and 96? because that's 25 innings right there that don't count then...

vtbub · 07-12-2006, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dangarion

Was he the closer in 95 and 96? because that's 25 innings right there that don't count then...

He set up Wettland, but it shouldn't count against him.

DanGarion · 07-12-2006, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clintl

.

Pujols has a long way to go to equal Lou Gehrig, and he's not on pace to do so.

In what way is he not on pace? 675 HRs at the age of 35 seems to be a bit more then Gehrig. What are you basing this off of?

DanGarion · 07-12-2006, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huckleberry

Alex Rodríguez's postseason numbers are better than Jeter's in an admittedly smaller sample size.

However, Jeter's numbers stay even with his overall numbers across the board. A-Rod's BA and OBP stay even but his SLG is lower in the postseason. Still 60 points or so higher than Jeter's, IIRC.

Jeter is a passable SS though, and that's about it. I've read a number of studies on how his defense is nothing to write home about.

Stevebsfan · 07-12-2006, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

You have no clue what you're on about. Riviera is the best closer - as defined today, in baseball history, and ought to be a first ballot HOF. Gagne, is not.

I can't even believe people would even talk about Gagne in the same breath as Rivera when talking about the best closers in history. I say this even as a Red Sox fan.

Gagne had 3 great seasons, but even Rocker proved that is possible to do. Granted Rocker's 3 great seasons weren't as good as Gagne's, they were still great seasons. Before he started opening his mouth, people really feared the guy.

Btw, has the 'S' word been mention for Gagne yet? I haven't heard it mentioned, which is surprising. Nomar tears his groin, and a Boston writer hints at it. Pujols goes on a tear, and there are whispers. Ortiz shows his power once he's given a full time role, and many Yankee fans have no problem accusing him of it. Just kind of shocking more people aren't hinting at roids when it comes to Gagne.

st.cronin · 07-12-2006, 01:02 PM

I can't believe nobody's mentioned Floyd Rayford yet.

GoldenEagle · 07-12-2006, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

What is this, act like a troll day ? You realize A-rod outhit Jeter in the 2004 playoffs, right ?

He states his opinion and backs it up and you call him a troll?

John Galt · 07-12-2006, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dangarion

Was he the closer in 95 and 96? because that's 25 innings right there that don't count then...

Why don't those count?

The reason I excluded Gagne's numbers as a starter is because they only hurt his case. If I include them, he looks like a much worse pitcher. I could similarly exclude Rivera's one season as a starter (when he was awful), but he still looks incredible DESPITE that season.

I guess I just don't understand what you are saying.

DanGarion · 07-12-2006, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Galt

Why don't those count?

The reason I excluded Gagne's numbers as a starter is because they only hurt his case. If I include them, he looks like a much worse pitcher. I could similarly exclude Rivera's one season as a starter (when he was awful), but he still looks incredible DESPITE that season.

I guess I just don't understand what you are saying.

I was trying to pad Gagne a bit.

mckerney · 07-12-2006, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stevebsfan

Ortiz shows his power once he's given the green light to hit for power instead of try for singles, and many Yankee fans have no problem accusing him of it.

Fixed.

Maple Leafs · 07-12-2006, 01:58 PM

Hey, here's a question: Gagne was considered a marginal talent for the first half of his career, suddenly became an elite power pitcher from 2002-2004, then his body breaks down before he's even 30. Why don't you ever hear him mentioned in steroid rumors?

DanGarion · 07-12-2006, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Hey, here's a question: Gagne was considered a marginal talent for the first half of his career, suddenly became an elite power pitcher from 2002-2004, then his body breaks down before he's even 30. Why don't you ever hear him mentioned in steroid rumors?

I think it's because the elite part happened with a change in duties, he goes from a starting pitcher to a closer. He had always thrown the heat, it was just he never had the stamina to really stay competitive when he started. Plus he was still pretty young when he was starting. I personally think that if he had continued starting he would have developed as well. But that's just my personal opinion.

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/playe...ic-Gagne.shtml Here are his numbers including minor league stats.

st.cronin · 07-12-2006, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Hey, here's a question: Gagne was considered a marginal talent for the first half of his career, suddenly became an elite power pitcher from 2002-2004, then his body breaks down before he's even 30. Why don't you ever hear him mentioned in steroid rumors?

I've heard those rumors on the fofc.

John Galt · 07-12-2006, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dangarion

I was trying to pad Gagne a bit.

Fair enough. I think Gagne may go down as the best of all the short-term dominant closers in history (Wild Thing, Thigpen, Rocker, Myers, and on and on and on). But he is so far from the achievements of Rivera that I found MrBug's comments to be bizarre.

stevew · 07-12-2006, 02:27 PM

Rick Mahler was the shit. Fear the Palm Ball.

DanGarion · 07-12-2006, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Galt

Fair enough. I think Gagne may go down as the best of all the short-term dominant closers in history (Wild Thing, Thigpen, Rocker, Myers, and on and on and on). But he is so far from the achievements of Rivera that I found MrBug's comments to be bizarre.

Yeah Rivera is the guy that I want to give the ball to day in and day out for a career (although I'd of liked to have Gossage or Marshall back in the 80s and 70s)

But if it came to a single season I think Gagne would be the guy I want to give it to.

clintl · 07-12-2006, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dangarion

In what way is he not on pace? 675 HRs at the age of 35 seems to be a bit more then Gehrig. What are you basing this off of?

One, he's on pace for about 600 HRs at the age of 35, not 675, and that's if his age is accurate (which some people think he might be a bit older than 26).

Two, and here's why I think he's not on pace - his career OPS+ (169) is 10 points less than Gehrig's (179), and he's only had one season, 2003, where his season OPS+ is higher than Gehrig's career OPS+. By Gehrig's fifth year, he had already had two seasons with an OPS+ better than Pujols' best so far. And there on, Gehrig pretty much put up monster seasons every year. So, as great as Pujols has been, I think he still needs to pick up the pace to match Gehrig's value as an offensive player. But he's within striking distance, for sure, and if he stays healthy, and he's really 26, he's almost certainly going to end up passing Gehrig in HRs as you said.

DeToxRox · 07-12-2006, 05:02 PM

Pudge Rodriguez is better then Piazza.

Pudge is no slouch offensivley, and rivals Bench defensivley.

Pudge might be the best catcher of all time. Piazza just might be the best offensive catcher of all time.

JonInMiddleGA · 07-12-2006, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

SS - Andres Thomas (Bobbleheads are the cool thing this decade, but Thomas made "bobble hands" popular in the '80s)

You young folks just kill me. Andres Thomas? Shit.

He couldn't carry the jockstrap of Darrell Chaney.

I'm not even sure that Thomas deserves to be mentioned before Pepe Frias.

ISiddiqui · 07-12-2006, 07:10 PM

I agree that A-Rod may indeed be the best 3B ever when all is said and done. He isn't all that far from Schmidt in OPS+ and, Hell, his HR numbers could be phenomenal.

As for Jeter, he's got one Hell of a way to go to get to Honus Wagner, but then again, seeing as the era was so different, people may not even be willing to compare the two.

Rivera gets the closer award and Clemens deserves to be in the best starting pitcher discussion (but probably will always lose out to Walter Johnson or Lefty Grove). Then again, when Pedro Martinez retires, who knows how we'll look at him. He may be in the discussion (and probably should be).

sterlingice · 07-15-2006, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryche

Interest list of the top 75 all time at each position:

http://www.thebaseballpage.com/index.php

Bill James's Historical Abstract is pretty much the same thing, except it's 100 players and it's a much better read.

SI

sterlingice · 07-15-2006, 04:17 PM

Do we get to count Ernie Banks when we're talking SS or does he get left off because he had to move to 1B later in his career?

SI

Maple Leafs · 07-15-2006, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Do we get to count Ernie Banks when we're talking SS or does he get left off because he had to move to 1B later in his career?

I think he counts, but he's not as good as Wagner.

rowech · 07-15-2006, 05:15 PM

This would be my team:

c -- Berra (Bench is a close second...Rodriguez has been juiced up for years)

1b -- Gerhig

2b -- Joe Morgan (Hornsby close as well)

ss -- toughest position for I think anyone to decide other than picking only 3 OF. Ozzie Smith was very one-dimensional. I believe Larkin was every bit as good as Ozzie defensively with a heck of a lot more offense. Ripken was good but he wasn't the hitter Honus Wagner was...not even close.

3b -- Mike Schmdt....like Brett, AROD, and Brooks but I'll take Schmidt.

lf -- Ted Williams

cf -- toughest call...Mantle, DiMaggio, Mays, or Griffey. Tough to argue against any of them, but I'll go with Mays

rf -- Greatest hitter of all-time...Ruth

sp -- Clemens and Walter Johnson...Seaver is up there as well.

rp -- Rivera...he is without question the best closer of all-time. The guys from the 70s were good but it was a different kind of closing. Eck was good but not for the duration Rivera has been this good.

07-12-2006, 11:17 AM	#55
Pumpy Tudors Bounty Hunter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Pittsburgh, PA	Comedy response: We have certainly seen the greatest players at EVERY offensive position in the past 20 years, and I really do mean "offensive!" C - Benny Distefano (As far as I know, he's the last lefthanded guy to catch in MLB, even if it was only in 3 games in 1989) 1B - Nick Esasky (You spin me right round, baby!) 2B - Nelson Liriano (.409 batting average in 1991) 3B - Kelly Gruber (Don't argue with me on this) SS - Andres Thomas (Bobbleheads are the cool thing this decade, but Thomas made "bobble hands" popular in the '80s) OF - Joe Orsulak (Woo, remember that studly year he had with the Marlins? Me neither!) OF - Gary Pettis (That boy run so good, you wished he knew how to get on base more often) OF - Derek Bell (Obviously) Come on, what are we arguing here, guys? __________________ No, I am not Batman, and I will not repair your food processor.

07-12-2006, 11:30 AM	#61
Pumpy Tudors Bounty Hunter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Pittsburgh, PA	st.cronin is a real man, guys. He knows what he's talking about. I'd like to give big ups to my main Daves, too: Dave Magadan and Dave Hansen. Watching those guys jump from 1B to 3B again and again reminded me of my days playing Frog Bog on my Intellivision. Also, mad props to Gerald Perry, former Braves/Royals/Cardinals first baseman, only because his batting stance made him look like he was going to beat the fuck out of anyone who came within 20 feet of him. __________________ No, I am not Batman, and I will not repair your food processor.

07-12-2006, 12:26 PM	#64
Maple Leafs Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2002	Kelly Gruber was awesome. __________________ Down Goes Brown: Toronto Maple Leafs Humor and Analysis

07-12-2006, 01:02 PM	#71
st.cronin General Manager Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: New Mexico	I can't believe nobody's mentioned Floyd Rayford yet. __________________ co-commish: bb-bbcf.net knives out

07-12-2006, 01:58 PM	#76
Maple Leafs Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2002	Hey, here's a question: Gagne was considered a marginal talent for the first half of his career, suddenly became an elite power pitcher from 2002-2004, then his body breaks down before he's even 30. Why don't you ever hear him mentioned in steroid rumors? __________________ Down Goes Brown: Toronto Maple Leafs Humor and Analysis

07-12-2006, 11:01 AM	#52
Franklinnoble Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Placerville, CA	Cal Ripken Jr. was the greatest SS of all time.

07-12-2006, 02:27 PM	#80
stevew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the yo'	Rick Mahler was the shit. Fear the Palm Ball.

07-12-2006, 05:02 PM	#83
DeToxRox Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Michigan	Pudge Rodriguez is better then Piazza. Pudge is no slouch offensivley, and rivals Bench defensivley. Pudge might be the best catcher of all time. Piazza just might be the best offensive catcher of all time.

07-12-2006, 07:10 PM	#85
ISiddiqui Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Decatur, GA	I agree that A-Rod may indeed be the best 3B ever when all is said and done. He isn't all that far from Schmidt in OPS+ and, Hell, his HR numbers could be phenomenal. As for Jeter, he's got one Hell of a way to go to get to Honus Wagner, but then again, seeing as the era was so different, people may not even be willing to compare the two. Rivera gets the closer award and Clemens deserves to be in the best starting pitcher discussion (but probably will always lose out to Walter Johnson or Lefty Grove). Then again, when Pedro Martinez retires, who knows how we'll look at him. He may be in the discussion (and probably should be). __________________ "A prayer for the wild at heart, kept in cages" -Tennessee Williams

07-15-2006, 04:17 PM	#87
sterlingice Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Back in Houston!	Do we get to count Ernie Banks when we're talking SS or does he get left off because he had to move to 1B later in his career? SI __________________ Houston Hippopotami, III.3: 20th Anniversary Thread - All former HT players are encouraged to check it out! Janos: "Only America could produce an imbecile of your caliber!" Freakazoid: "That's because we make lots of things better than other people!"

07-15-2006, 05:15 PM	#89
rowech Pro Starter Join Date: Feb 2006	This would be my team: c -- Berra (Bench is a close second...Rodriguez has been juiced up for years) 1b -- Gerhig 2b -- Joe Morgan (Hornsby close as well) ss -- toughest position for I think anyone to decide other than picking only 3 OF. Ozzie Smith was very one-dimensional. I believe Larkin was every bit as good as Ozzie defensively with a heck of a lot more offense. Ripken was good but he wasn't the hitter Honus Wagner was...not even close. 3b -- Mike Schmdt....like Brett, AROD, and Brooks but I'll take Schmidt. lf -- Ted Williams cf -- toughest call...Mantle, DiMaggio, Mays, or Griffey. Tough to argue against any of them, but I'll go with Mays rf -- Greatest hitter of all-time...Ruth sp -- Clemens and Walter Johnson...Seaver is up there as well. rp -- Rivera...he is without question the best closer of all-time. The guys from the 70s were good but it was a different kind of closing. Eck was good but not for the duration Rivera has been this good.

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