GroupThink - 1990 Draft Thread

[Bee]

Originally posted by primelord
Well we know we can get a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd for our 1st and 5th. So Quik I would say you might want to see if you can pry away the 1st and 2 2nd's from either PEN or TB, but fi not pull the trigger on that deal.

agreed.

[Doug5984]

Originally posted by primelord
Well we know we can get a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd for our 1st and 5th. So Quik I would say you might want to see if you can pry away the 1st and 2 2nd's from either PEN or TB, but fi not pull the trigger on that deal.

Ok- it looks like I got back from my test just in time...I agree if we can geta first and 2- 2nds that would be great, we might need to give up a 5th round pick to do that though)...now assuming we trade with PEN or TB to 16-19 who do we go after? My person preference was WR McAllister, but getting Particilli would be a good deal also since he can be our return man, but I don't know if he will be the impact player that McAllister can be...

[strait8]

I agree with primelord and Bee trade down for 1 and 2-2nd's or a 1 -2 and three.

I'd give up up to a third to get two seconds. the pickings below three wil be very sketchy indeed.

[primelord]

I am not sure if I missed this. Are we alowed to shop around for the best price or is the GM the only one who can do that?

[primelord]

dola,

n/m I went back and saw a post that said Quik is the only one who is supposed to do that.

[Mike47]

Hey guys, I am going to have to step down as Personnel Coordinator. I don't think I'm going to be able to stay as involved as I would like, being in two Group Think projects at once. You guys have a great thing going right now and I can only hope the one that I'm trying to get off of the ground goes as well. Thanks for the inspiration, I hope I haven't offended anyone. Good luck!

[Bee]

Good luck with the Texans Mike!

[QuikSand]

Okay, I am back online... and will go and try to swing our best "trade-down" deal. I like the idea of talking to Pensacola, knowing that we have a deal with SSM in the back pocket.

More to come...

[QuikSand]

We have made a deal with the Pensacola Panhandlers, and have acquired their 1st round (#16) and both 2nd round picks. In exchange, they receive our 1st round (#4) and our 5th round pick. Nice deal!

[DolaBump]

sounds good to me (don;t know if you were asking opinions or telling, but I'll chime in anyway)

its a nice pick distribution as well -- early mid and late 2nd round

[QuikSand]

4. Pensacola - Sinard, Karl, DT, Massachusetts

5. Key West - Blades, Jorge, T, Georgia Tech

6. Norfolk - Barrett, Adam, DT, Tennessee

7. Wheeling - Lofton, Cornelius, T, Notre Dame

8. Death Valley - Hadley, Jerald, OLB, Georgia

9. Athens - Schulz, Winston, CB, Louisiana State

10. Hawk Mountain - Dillon, Ernest, QB, Stonehill

11. Tulsa - Avalos, Robbie, DT, NW Missouri St.

12. Lake Erie - Joseph, Desmond, G, Georgia

13. Providence - Pearson, Roy, ILB, Wake Forest

14. Sacramento - Kennicott, Jermaine, DE, Angelo State

15. Nashua - Warren, Darrell, DE, Elon College

We’re on the clock… let the debates begin!

[QuikSand]

WR Kenny McAllister is almost certainly the 3rd best WR in the draft, a playmaker with pretty solid skills. (He really only paled because the other two were so good) Since there doesn't seem to be a guy to take at DE, maybe this is the best way to go... still fills a serious need, fairly consistent with our original plan.

C Malcolm Limond might be the best player available, and I think there's room for extreme optimism with him. The only issue is that center is a fairly deep position in most drafts, and passable gus are easy to come by. Investing a top pick at center might be overkill, no matter how good the guy might be. (I do really like him, though - I think he's head-and-shoulders the best OL in the draft)

[primelord]

Well from the defensive perspective I REALLY like CB Chan and ILB Hughes. They both fit our system very well. I guess we should disregard Hughes because we have a nice option there now, but we could use another solid CB.

There are a few other guys who are intriguing on defense, but I think if we are going to make a D pick it should be one of those two guys.

[DolaBump]

My top 5 for this pick (in no order):

George McNeil, TE
Joel Chan, CB
Kenny McAlister, WR
Wes Particelli, WR
Seth Copeland, OLB


I love Chan, but that's bias showing -- even so, I think he's the best talent here.

I'm split on McAlister and Particelli, I like them both, but have a feeling they'll both underacheive as receivers.

I really like Copeland, his cover skills will help in our D

Its too early probably for a TE, but McNeil is real good

[primelord]

I am getting ready to leave and won't be on again until later this evening. I am fine with going offense on this pick but if we decide to go defense I think Chan is our guy.

I am sure you guys will make some additional progress with the draft. I'd say I would really like to get a DE and a DT somewhere in the first 4 rounds. And despite your love of run stuffers Quik I would really like the DT to be a guy who can rush the passer.

A guy I find very intriguing who could possibly had around the 4th round or so is DE Julio Garrett. He is strictly a pass rush specialist, but we need someone who can bring that type of pressure. Good luck guys.

[QuikSand]

Hmmm... I'm seeing an aful lof of "new-style downside" to several of these guys being touted as our top picks. Probably explains why the guys I like aren't in very good synch with those you all are pointing out. I'm skeptical about CB Chan and LB Hughes, for instance - I don't think I'd take either guy here.

[illinifan999]

Sorry, for this, but that 4 MB original file is going to take a good 20 minutes on my crappy internet connection, and I am going to get it over the weekend, but what is our team name, and where are we located?

[DolaBump]

I see what you're talking about w/Chan -- I noticed the high INT rating and forgot that it leaves no room to judge false potential.

I think Hughes is a guy we pass on anyway w/our current MLBs.

One of the reasons I like McNeil so much is that he's already pretty good -- again, though, he's a TE.


The more I look, the more I see a group of mediocre players -- so I have no idea who to take a chance on.

Incidentally, we're the Little Rock Rollers

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by illinifan999
Sorry, for this, but that 4 MB original file is going to take a good 20 minutes on my crappy internet connection, and I am going to get it over the weekend, but what is our team name, and where are we located?

At the moment, we are the Little Rock Rollers. My sense is this has not really been embraced by the GT collective.. so that may be subject to further change.

[Bee]

Although I love Limond and don't think he'd be a bad pick at this point, I think going with the WR McAllister makes the most sense. What little talent we do have in the receiving corp is old and very limited. McAllister looks like the kind of guy who can stretch the field and open up defenses to the running game.

Just hope he does better than real life Florida receivers.

[Anrhydeddu]

new-style downside ??

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by DolaBump
I see what you're talking about w/Chan -- I noticed the high INT rating and forgot that it leaves no room to judge false potential.

For me, not to go on too much about this, the real concern with CB Chan is his rating in "punishing hitter," which used to be a static rating. Since that rating is currently 38/67, that strongly suggests to me that there's a good deal of BS in his apparent potential... and if that's true, that means that his actual skills will never really grow (anywhere) much past what we see right now. And that is a pasable guy, with a great rating in interceptions, but certainly not a front-line starting corner.

As for your other guy, TE George McNeil, I see a better bet ( just don't know when we'd pull the trigger). He has rather little green in big play receiving or blockign strength - suggesting less bullshit in his ratings, to me. If he pans out close to his greens, he'll be an all-star (especially with our bumbling WR corps).

[Bee]

As far as TE goes, I'm more inclined to wait til the later rounds and try to get Vanderpool. I think he'd be a better bargain (not a better player though).

[DolaBump]

Looking at the centers, Limond looks like he'll be great, but Matt Jefferson is not much of a step down and will probably be available in the early 2nd round. I also like Wayne Hall, who should definitely be around in the 2nd round.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
new-style downside ??

One of those "micromanaging" things. (heh)

There are some things to watchin FOF4 when evaluating young players - since many of them don't each the projected potentials. If you look to see who has certain tip-offs, you have a better shot in projecting who will develop well. Or so some say.

[Bee]

Originally posted by DolaBump
Looking at the centers, Limond looks like he'll be great, but Matt Jefferson is not much of a step down and will probably be available in the early 2nd round. I also like Wayne Hall, who should definitely be around in the 2nd round.

There's a few centers that look decent. Limond is by far the best, but with our needs I think we can address the center position later in the draft.

[DolaBump]

Okay, taking into account "new-style downside" I think we should probably take McAlister. He probably won't reach his potential, but he's already pretty damn good, even only reaching half of his potential.

My only other thought is Marcus Hazen (T), who's maybe a 2nd round pick, but is a guy to keep in mind.

[Bee]

Just a note.

I wanted to see what happened if I continued the draft to the point that we are at (to see how much randomness is involved). Everything played out the exact same way as it did for QS.

I found that somewhat interesting...

[Booj]

I think TE McNeil would be a great choice... and at 16, it seems like a good place to pick a TE.

[QuikSand]

Well, I would love to see us be able to grab:

WR McAlister
C Limond
TE McNeil
DE Noland (wild card, I know)

...with our four picks in the first two rounds. I think it's doubtful we get all of thos top three guys, though - we probably only get one of them, really.

And I am rapidly approaching my departure for home - after which I will be unable to continue with this. Can we reach consensus ona game plan for the next 2-3 picks for tomorrow morning, and run those picks then (around 8am ET)?

[Bee]

I say you make the call on which of the first 3 you pick, if any of them are available at the next pick take them. I think Noland would be good for the #16 pick in round 2 (or later), but I wouldn't use the #4 pick in round 2 on him.

I also like RB Duane Crawford for the pick at #26 in the second round. This looks like a bad draft for defense, but that's just my opinion take it for what it's worth.

[strait8]

If we go offence the biggest difference maker is Mcallister. He looks good.

There are more stronger choices on defence

Chan Very solid defensive back, solid first rounder.

Three guys to Consider in the second roud on defence They are currently playing out of position I think:

Gabe Blow LDT, Small tackle looks like reincarnation of Dwight Feeney to me. He could be a phenomenal pass rush end. he is jut not a punishing hitter. This guy has a load of upside.

Norm Hughes; Should be converted to WLB where his ratings probably will increase. He looks like a great cover and blitz OLB. He's also a good hitter and good teams player.

OJ Morrison should be moved to SLB where we do not have any one on the roster. This guy looks like the prototypical SLB. he already is a fully developed monster blitzer.

On offence in the second round I'd go for the C Limond, he looks like the complete package.

[Doug5984]

Originally posted by QuikSand
Well, I would love to see us be able to grab:

WR McAlister
C Limond
TE McNeil
DE Noland (wild card, I know)

...with our four picks in the first two rounds. I think it's doubtful we get all of thos top three guys, though - we probably only get one of them, really.

And I am rapidly approaching my departure for home - after which I will be unable to continue with this. Can we reach consensus ona game plan for the next 2-3 picks for tomorrow morning, and run those picks then (around 8am ET)?

I would take McAlister here, I would be very suprised if the computer picked TE McNeil before our second round pick, same thing with the center (edit: well I must say I am very suprised), those 2 positions always seem to fall to the early 2nd round.
edit: for some reason i forgot we had 3- 2nd round picks.
This is how I would suggest our first 5 picks go:
1- WR McAlister
2a- OLB S. Copeland
2b- WR W. Particelli
2c- C Mat Jefferson
3- DE J. Garrett
4- FB D. Hernandez

If Particelli does not fall that far then we could use that pick on a TE, but right now our WRs are not very impressive and I think if we were able to get these 2 guys they could be our # 2 & 3 WRs this year (along w/ return man)...and if they both live up to their potential they could both become all-pro players

[QuikSand]

16. Little Rock - McAlister, Kenny, WR, Florida

17. Ocean City - Chan, Joel, CB, Prairie View A&M

18. Manhattan - Race, Zach, G, Iowa

19. Sault Ste. Marie - Castillo, George, T, Nebraska

20. Mazatlan - Wheeler, D.J., G, Florida

21. Fort Wayne - Springer, Daryl, G, Wisconsin

22. Wheeling - Campbell, Kent, DT, Texas

23. Ypsilanti - Peters, Ty, RB, Virginia

24. Niagara Falls - Marrero, Rick, G, Ball State

25. Texarkana - McElroy, Mark, T, Iowa State

26. Louisville - Hughes, Norm, ILB, Washington State

27. Puget Sound - Morrison, O.J., ILB, Syracuse

28. Tijuana - Mayes, Danny, ILB, Washington

29. Bermuda - Hazen, Marcus, T, Miles

30. Champaign - James, Earnest, DE, Mesa State

31. Thunder Bay - McNeil, George, TE, Nebraska

32. Thunder Bay - Matthews, Neal, CB, Montana State

33. Cheyenne - Limond, Malcolm, C, Clemson

34. Kitty Hawk - Hutton, Nicky, T, Auburn

35. Memphis - Murray, Alvin, T, UCLA

This puts us on the clock again – we came close to seeing both of the other two guys we “considered” at #16, but both TE McNeil and C Limond went in the last handful of picks. Drat!

That brings us to the first of our second rounders… I think it’s a good spot to leave us for now. A file update is below, which might make things easier to review the draft (you’ll be up to our second round pick).

[QuikSand]

Here is the second update file...

[DolaBump]

My personal preference is to get 3 out of these 8 guys in the 2nd round:

Alan Martinez, WLB
Wes Particelli, WR
Terrell Blackledge, DT
Vince Waite, CB
Les Randle, SLB
Matt Jefferson, C
Wayne Hall, C
Duane Crawford, RB

I like Particelli, though I think he'll be much more effective as a return man than a receiver.

I think we should definitely get one of those centers and I like Crawford a lot.

I'd also like to get a guy on the defensive side, I like Waite a lot, I think he's a guy who will reach is potential (despite being better in Man-to-Man than Zone converage).

At OLB, I think Copeland is suspect and prefer Martinez (Randle's Zone coverage is 0, despite being a good pass rusher).

We need some help on the D-line and I like Blackledge a lot, I think he'll turn into a good all-around DT, ending up somewhere in the 50's.

[Bee]

Well let's trot out some of the names that made it through that were discussed previously.

Seth Copeland OLB - I like the fact he's a stud on special teams.

Wes Particelli WR - solid return man.

Gabe Blow LDT - Undersized DT with a great name .

Duane Crawford RB - with RB Darrin Phillips still available as well, looks like one of the two could last a while longer.

Timothy Noland RDE - I think he'll probably be available later, but I think he's a solid player.

If I missed anyone that we've looked at for this spot please post it or if you see someone else that looks like a potential consideration.

Edit: Dangit Dolabump you beat me

[Bee]

I see several decent DT's that can probably be had later in the draft, I'd say we go another direction than DT.

Other than that I really don't have that much opinion on this pick. We probably should consider a defensive player to make prime happy though.

[strait8]

Dola:
I see what you like about Blackledge. He is a bit bigger and more developed. I like Blow better for his upside which i think shows now and will pop in year 2.

I also like Patricelli. he is a solid receiver whocould be a #2 or #3 WR with the added bonus of excellent return skills.

If the punter Connell is available in round 4, I would take him. Definitely in Rd 5 He looks like a solid 44yd avg. He has great hang time. This guy can earn you a 5yd differential on every exchange of kicks. This is very important for us who will have to kick a lot.

[strait8]

Bee:
Don't look at Blow as a DT look at him for LDE. His numbers will not go down when you change his position. More than likely they will go up.

We need a pass rusher at LDE this guy can be the man.

[strait8]

In regards to Nolan the DE. No Pash rush strength usually equates to a very low sack total, That's why i don't like him.

[illinifan999]

The fans are excited about Kenny!

[wade moore]

Let's see.. a few comments.


1) I would still be a VERY happy camper if we got FB Hernandez. To be honest, we could get nothing else from the draft and if I got him I would do a little happy dance (ok, maybe exaggerating a little).. again, I have no clue where a stud FB should go in the draft..

2) at RB -- I know Crawford and Phillips are somewhat Equal, but I would MUCH rather have Crawford. He is almost a 100 in Power Inside, whereas Phillips is a 2. I would love to have Crawford as a changeup to The Ox to just pound up the middle (Especially if I had Hernandez up front of him )

3) TE - There doesn't appear to be a bonefide stud left. Cary Goldsberry appears to be a possible good later round pick up.

4) WR - Particelli is most definately appealing for his Return abilities. As I look at the other WRs, it appears not a single other one can both return punts and kicks, let alone either as well as him. If we don't get him, FL Wayne Hill seems like he would be a decent pick for one of the later second round picks or early third, although his avoid fumbles is a bit worrisome

5) OL - why are we shying away from guys like C Matt Jefferson, C Wayne Hall, and C Isaac Terry? Because so much is in Green bars?


There are my thoughts for my half of the team...

As for defense.. I honestly haven't had a lot of time to examine it, but I wouldn't mind picking a couple of defensive guys here, as I know that a strong defense is important -- especially with our style of offense, we will be trying to keep the scores low.

[DolaBump]

Originally posted by wade moore

5) OL - why are we shying away from guys like C Matt Jefferson, C Wayne Hall, and C Isaac Terry? Because so much is in Green bars?

I think we definitely need to get jefferson or Hall -- but I'm convinced we can get one of them with the third pick in the 2nd round.

[wade moore]

Ok Dola, sounds good. For the 4 zillionth time, I am entirely clueless on where guys will fall in the draft...

Here's a general concern.. what do we hope to get out of the draft? We have:

2a
2b
2c
3
4
6
7

I think the consensus is we're not likely to get a future starter from 6 and 7.. so.. we have 5 picks to get potential future starters at...

From the offense, I see it would be nice to get atleast: WR, C, FB, TE, RB. That is all 5 picks, without defense . I wonder if at a certain point we need to prioritize our positions? If we get hung up 100% on players (I know QS prefers to draft based on player, not need) I think we should draft atleast somewhat on need. For the offense, my perception of need is:

FB
WR/C
RB/TE

But, that is just me. If the FB will be available later, then we shouldn't jump on him, but to me that is the position that is the most desperate to make our offense work, etc...

[Doug5984]

Originally posted by wade moore



1) I would still be a VERY happy camper if we got FB Hernandez. To be honest, we could get nothing else from the draft and if I got him I would do a little happy dance (ok, maybe exaggerating a little).. again, I have no clue where a stud FB should go in the draft..

This is how I would like to see us go the next few rounds

2a- OLB S. Copeland
2b- WR W. Particelli
2c- C Mat Jefferson
3- DE J. Garrett
4- FB D. Hernandez

This would give Primelord a very good future OLB, and a great special teams player in Copeland. A very good return man who could also be our # 3 WR this year, and possibly # 2 guy next year. Our center of the future in Jefferson. A rushing DE for primelord, and we could get FB D. Hernandez who looks to me like he could be a future all pro guy, to be safe we could switch him and Garettt, but then that is taking a chance on Garett not falling to the 4th. If we do go with the route it does not give us a good backup RB, but we can't get everyone we want in the draft...

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by wade moore
I think we should draft atleast somewhat on need. For the offense, my perception of need is:

FB
WR/C
RB/TE

But, that is just me. If the FB will be available later, then we shouldn't jump on him, but to me that is the position that is the most desperate to make our offense work, etc...

I think that the role of the FB in FOF is woefully understated. He rarely factors into key run blocks, doesn't get too many carries (and shouldn't on this team, unless he's a beast), and doesn't catch too many passes unless it's by default.

So while I agree it's a position where we don't have much going for us... I also don't know how to best weigh a "stud" FB against a "decent" player at a more obvious position like WR. Tough to say - and that's even before considerations of scarcity and such.

I have no problem trying to get a FB in this draft, as long as we think the guy is a "difference maker." I don't have the game handy... but don't recall being blown away by any FB in this draft. I'm glad to check again - you clearly like this guy, and that's enough to get me on board, honestly.

[DolaBump]

My feeling is that in the 2nd round we should go after either Crawford or Particelli, Waite or Blackledge and Jefferson or Wayne.

A FB should not go until at least the 3rd round, maybe not til the 4th (not saying we shouldn;t take one earlier, just saying the average top notch FB goes late 3rd in my experience). I'd also like to get one of the OLBs, but they can wait til the 3rd round as well.

As for TE, I think we can get a decent TE in the 6th (maybe). I thin Goldsberry could possibly drop that low.

Here's how I would approach it:
2a) Blackledge or Waite
2b) Crawford
2c) Jefferson or Wayne
3) Martinez or Randle
4) FB (preferably Hernandez)
6) TE (preferably Goldsberry)
7) Whatever

I might swap 3 & 4, but otherwise, that's my gut instinct.

[INDalltheway]

I am loving this guys. I will keep reading this! What was Mike's job that he just resigned from? I would be interested.

[DolaBump]

I'm really wary of Copeland -- he's all potential:
Run D: 21/73
Pass Rush Tech: 10/66
M2M D: 10/61
Zone D: 22/72
B & R: 8/20
Rush Strength: 19/53
Play Diag: 12/67
Punishing Hitter: 39/66
End: 48/72
Sp. Teams: 91/93

Looking at his green bars, I see a lot of phantom ratings