To Greenlight or not to Greenlight

[Julio Riddols]

I echo the opinion that text and screen shots matter more than a video. When I want to learn something about something, I generally prefer to read about it and see images of it rather than watch a video. An example of this is when I go to view a news article on a site and get linked to a video. I usually just close the tab rather than watching the video.

I say put up a copious amount of screen shots and explanation of what is being shown. In the summary of the game, sum it up as an accurate and balanced GM simulation with multiplayer and an error free finished product rather than a yet to be finished beta. For the armchair GM who wishes they could take the reins of their own professional franchise, this is still the only game on the block really worth its salt, IMO.

The hunt for a franchise QB thing would make a great imgur photoset.

[NawlinsFan]

*

[Shaun Sullivan]

I'm following this with keen interest.

One suggestion I have would be to reach out to Bill Harris, fellow text-sim nerd and recent developer of a game that was green-lit on Steam. He might have some good insights.

Whatever path you choose, I with you the best.

Shaun

[Solecismic]

Thanks, Shaun. I'm giving this a try.

The Greenlight pages say that advertising is strictly forbidden. My intro video talks about there being a free demo of FOF7 available on my web site, as well as the fact that the game is finished and on sale.

Does that constitute advertising? Does anyone remember how OOTP handled that?

[antdroid]

Here's the link to the Franchise Hockey Manager greenlight page which is from OOTP: Steam Greenlight :: Franchise Hockey Manager

Their video on there looks like walkthrough but they have a link to purchase the game on their own website.

[Sebastian Palkowski]

Originally Posted by antdroid

Here's the link to the Franchise Hockey Manager greenlight page which is from OOTP: Steam Greenlight :: Franchise Hockey Manager

Their video on there looks like walkthrough but they have a link to purchase the game on their own website.

Thats right and as far as I know we never got any complains from Steam for that. So you should be save to mention it in my opinion.

[mckerney]

Twitter / SteamDB: Valve also added the possibility ...



Steam has added option to report games on their store page, could be a sign their progressing in plan to eliminate greenlight and allow developers to use the store without prior approval from Valve.

[DaddyTorgo]

How's the Greenlight campaign going?

[Solecismic]

Hard to say. They Greenlit another 75 titles today, so the stats I'm seeing have changed a bit.

I'm at about 650 votes in six days. If I continued at 100/day, I'd make it easily. But that's not a realistic expectation. I figure I need at least 2,000 votes to be considered. The good thing is there's no time limit for this process.

I really appreciate the nice things people have been saying about the game on Greenlight. I didn't expect that at all. Sometimes I only see the negative posts here, and it's kind of scary going out into the bigger world.

That said, I hope more people can vote. On my end, I'm doing my best to get the game out in front of more reviewers, looking for places where indie developers talk about their games. If people here could talk to their friends and get them to vote, I'd be very grateful.

[Julio Riddols]

I'll see what I can do.

[Godzilla Blitz]

Just catching up on this discussion, and I just voted for the game on Steam. Good luck!

Coming from the perspective of someone who has kids and a full-time job, I can't say enough how much I've come to appreciate games that are on Steam. I balk at buying non-Steam games, mainly due to ease-of-use factors and partly due to lower prices.

It seems to me that the Greenlight element of Steam has made it more feasible and accepted for niche/Indie developers to publish on the platform. There also seems to be a greater acceptance of niche games on the platform from the gamer perspective. That just might be my skewed viewpoint, but there are more and more examples of nice developers moving their games to Steam. For example, Slitherine is starting to move their Matrix titles to Steam. There are more simulation/sports management titles on the platform now than there were previously.

I didn't see it mentioned in the discussion, but if FOF7 does get greenlit, I'd recommend exploring the benefits of adding Steam Trading Cards and Steam Achievements. I don't know the details of how they work on Steam from a publisher perspective, but I think they're worthwhile for two reasons. Many gamers are badge/achievement gamers, and those features influence buying decisions.

Not having Steam Trading Cards and Achievements gives me the impression that the game is old and/or not supported currently. Having both of these gives me the impression that the developer is all in with their Steam deployment. If I were to pick one of the two, I'd say Achievements are the more important feature.

[Dutch]

I've seen the badges and cards on Steam, but I have no idea what this even means. "Many gamers are badge/achievement gamers"

[Godzilla Blitz]

Originally Posted by Mike D

I've seen the badges and cards on Steam, but I have no idea what this even means. "Many gamers are badge/achievement gamers"

The badges/cards are an odd feature.

Basically, a game can have a card set with it, consisting of a half dozen or more unique cards. As you first play a game with cards available, cards will drop to your account at a rate of about one per hour, up to half or one more than half of the total number of cards in the set.

Once all your drops have come for a particular game, you're eligible for a random chance to have another few cards drop to your account at some point in the future. You can also trade for missing cards in a set, or buy them on the marketplace. Most of them are about a dime or so each, but there are also rare foil cards that can be worth more.

Once you get all the cards in a set, you can craft a badge for that particular game. The badge gives you some random things: 100 Steam experience points, sometimes some in-game items for other games, a discount coupon, a background for your profile, and some emoticon you can use in chat. As you gain experience, you advance in Steam levels. Steam levels give you mostly useless features, like the ability to customize your profile more at Level 10, or have more friends on your Steam account.

Badges also have levels, so you can have a few levels of badges for a particular game.

I got caught up in it for about a day or so, then couldn't figure out why I cared about it. About the only think I'll do is pick up the extra cards for games I finish and like, as a way to mark a game complete. If you don't care at all about the cards, you can sell them on the marketplace and use that money on your Steam account to buy games.

There are gamers who enjoy them quite a bit. Maybe it appeals to their collection impulses.

[DerekGameDev]

I voted for the game on Steam too. I'd love to see it get greenlighted! On Steam...its a crapshoot really. The audience on Steam varies a lot, so it'll depend on if the message reaches enough people who want to see a good text-based sim made.

[Germanicus]

Voted and asked friends to do the same. For Steam users this takes a matter of seconds.

That aside, I noticed there were concerns about pricing in this thread and a lot of people have already given feedback on it, but I recalled some articles I had read regarding steam pricing and sales.

Valve's Gabe Newell Interview

This a bit old, but the experience is consistent with my own, and my PC gaming friends, all of whom make the vast majority of game purchases via Steam.

Basically the per unit pricing goes down significantly, but sales go up exponentially. Anecdotally, for me, There comes a point where the perceived value of the game matches up with the discount, and I am willing to buy something I "might want to play at some point." These are titles I would never really consider buying, but seem to be quality games. In a sense, I make the value pick.

This is reflected in Ars Technica's recent "Steam Guage" that launched here which shows us many people are buying games that they do not play, or play very little. Ars Technica Steam Guauge

Anyway... in case you missed these, I hope they are of some help. Have been playing FOF since the inaugural edition on and off, and very much hope FoF7 can jump into some mainstream success - the Football Sim genre needs it.

[Solecismic]

The campaign continues, though it's continuing slowly. We reached 1,000 yes votes tonight. I still think it needs about 2,000 for serious consideration, though Valve has not published their criteria.

Yes, the current price point would not work for Steam. Probably $10 lower, but with occasional sales at $16.95 - $19.95. I have to keep the price higher on my own because I just don't get as many people looking at the game.

I don't have any idea if it will make it to Steam. I really appreciate those who have voted and taken the time to comment. I haven't given up. I just have to figure out what to do if it doesn't make it.

[Julio Riddols]

The best thing that could happen is a complete reimagining of the interface. Keep the functionality, but completely rethink how and where to display things. I think a good revision would probably remove as many clicks as it adds, but the ideal result would be a better looking, simpler, easier to follow interface that would appeal to those new to football text sims.

There are things like the Grey Sheet/Green Page/QB Coterie that could be made into a much more prevalent feature in the game by just spicing them up a bit and making them easier to find.

One idea I think would be a great addition would be to make the calendar dynamic. When it is Staff Retention time, The calendar could change to a highlighted list of relevant links to things of interest for that stage in the game: Coach records, team rankings, last seasons power rankings, what have you. During Free Agency the Grey Sheet could be featured, along with the draft report and other necessary stuff.

This puts all the pertinent stuff (and maybe some things players rarely see) right there in broad daylight for the new user. They're no longer staring at a page of almost 100 text links trying to figure out what is where. I think that alone would take that entry barrier for new and on-the-fence players from about 20 feet high to about chest level, figuratively speaking.

[MarBaSxx]

That soccer sim game is one of the most popular games on steam. I think FoF can do well here. I have been sitting around wishing there was a good stat simulator for NFL football for years. Hopefully this can get done

[DaddyTorgo]

I think you actually have to blast out there that you're on Greenlight. You know there were some reviews of FOF done - why not reach out to the reviewers and let them know you're on Greenlight now and have them pimp it to their readers with an "Updated Review" that covers that and the graphical revamp say?

Need some publicity on it to drive eyeballs there to get it Greenlit faster.

[Solecismic]

Following up... FHM made Steam today. So that's encouraging, in that Steam is looking at text sims in a world that seems to be nothing but first-person shooters at times.

FOF doesn't have the votes. It can sit on Greenlight indefinitely, and the numbers will trickle upward, a few a day. I don't know their criteria.

I would like to continue writing games. That won't happen unless I can make some changes that will lead to a product that would have no problem reaching Steam. Obviously, I can't keep focusing only on game play. That has resulted in a game that has fallen far behind in look and feel. What was a decent interface ten years ago is tedious and hard to learn today. I can spend months working on under the hood stuff - FOF7 is by far the biggest "update" I've ever made. But a good percentage of existing customers won't upgrade because it's in areas that were already working well enough. A big part of that is the look and feel.

Marketing is becoming the elephant in the room. It costs a lot to market through advertising - too much to make advertising practical. I never got much return from ads in the past. My marketing effort was always focused on getting the game in the hands of reviewers. Making it onto Computer Gaming World's top 100 list back in 1998 was huge. That led to the EA Sports relationship and a lot of attention. I could write any reviewer and he'd publish something. It's a different world. I can barely rate an auto-reply from 1UP (essentially where CGW is today). I wrote more than a dozen reviewers about FOF7 and got one review out of it. Even the Football Outsiders relationship - which is essentially mention on their web site in return for the placement within FOF7 - it took months to get that mention this time, and because their reviewer hated the look and feel so much it was a review I don't feel comfortable even linking.

In other words, continuing the way I'm headed is leading to the slow death of FOF. Steam would change that - give the community the infusion of new players - give me the infusion of cash I need to update the look and feel. But I need marketing even to get the votes I need to get on Steam.

Interesting dilemma. I'm throwing a lot of ideas around lately.

[digamma]

Jim,
Have you looked into newer methods of marketing? Some of the facebook and/or google (or even twitter) auction based pricing can be very affordable for small businesses and generate a fairly targeted message. A couple of friends with small businesses have had particular success with facebook ads.

Just a thought.

[Dutch]

Well, I think you've nailed it Jim. The UI experience can't be a distractor. It's a balancing act and that's serious (and professional) business these days.

I know you are driven by the game mechanics and engine first and foremost, but I'll bet if you didn't touch those things one bit, and hired a UI team to help revamp the look & feel that FOF (let's call it v7.5) could generate revenue. Remember, Beats By Dre is a 3.2B company...and they did nothing to revolutionize headphones....they just made them prettier.

[Solecismic]

One idea my wife and I have been discussing is finding a local recent grad in marketing who is passionate about football and enjoys FOF and giving him a small budget to work with. I was good at getting word out when the internet was more directory-based and I knew the print world very well. But marketing in the modern digital world is an entirely different animal, and people advise very different strategies.

[Pyser]

i'd think it's worth trying to hit up pro nfl reporters. pro football talk or peter king or something like that. any mention from anyone like that about "the most realistic football sim available" could help.

as an nfl fan, i'd be far more likely to see that than a random review somewhere.

[Germanicus]

To follow up on Pyser's point above, have you read Bill Barnwell over at Grantland.com and The Triangle? Contributors Bill Barnwell «

Similar to PFF and Football Outsiders he is heavily into analytics, but Grantland.com has a huge and more diverse readership.

[kingnebwsu]

Posting for the first time in years to say I voted for your game on Steam. Haven't bought FOF7 yet (new baby reduces my free time significantly) but I look forward to purchasing the game & reliving the glory days of the old FOF. Has it really been over 15 years? Wow...

[Germanicus]

Not sure what your stance on DRM is, but have you given GOG.com any consideration? Been growing steadily, and they seem to be much more hands on in working with developers to decide what to put out there.

[Solecismic]

If I'm going this route, it makes more sense to have access to the tens of millions who accept Steam. But seven months on Greenlight, and it's obvious I'm not what they want. So everything and anything is on the table. I've always been slow to make decisions, and I have some decisions to make.

In the meantime, I'm making another push on Steam. I tweetered or something like that about if I get 200 votes this week, I'll give FOF customers a bit of a surprise. That was worth 140 votes in the last three days, so someone is watching. Admittedly, this Twitter/Facebook stuff still mystifies me. But please vote if you haven't already.

[Solecismic]

Greenlight has approved about 300 games in the last 24 hours, but not FOF. We're only 48% of the way to the top 100 in votes, but plenty with far less votes make it. We're probably top 20 in terms of followers/favorites. Hopefully that matters, but obviously not enough or it would have gotten through last night.

This is a ridiculous process, but still I have to hope for it. There's not going to be a new game without some sort of distribution method. I appreciate all of you who have gone there and voted and commented.

[djsatu]

Jim I don't know what else you can do to be honest. You have way more votes than a bunch of games that have been approved already. The fact that some games get in with no votes or effort at all is crazy. The number of people that want your game on steam is staggering. We all want more products from you obviously, but we know how much getting on steam would help in that regard. Still holding out hope for you!

[MizzouRah]

Suck an odd process over there.

[Ben E Lou]

Very irritating.

[Julio Riddols]

I really don't understand what the hold up could possibly be. Maybe you should call FOF 7 an early access game or something.

[dubb93]

How did DDS: PB get in while completely skipping the Greenlight process? What did he do that you are not?

[PilotMan]

I think it's because he has a distribution agreement with Viva Media and they got it on there.

[Solecismic]

I've had that kind of offer, but I can't make the numbers work if I want to remain full-time. Those companies ask a lot to bypass Greenlight, and the sales they suggested were possible weren't that much higher than what I already do.

My worry is that in turning down an offer (always politely), I've offended someone with solid connections at Valve.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

This is a ridiculous process, but still I have to hope for it. There's not going to be a new game without some sort of distribution method. I appreciate all of you who have gone there and voted and commented.

I have hope for it too. All I can say is maybe it's time to explore some other video options. I mean, that's got to be part of the sales pitch too. Either through a let's play or perhaps a more straightforward sales pitch.

Maybe it's not enough to just show the game, but instead appeal to the nature of what we like in a game. Hell if Choice of Games can get what amount to great "Choose Your Own Adventure" games, with no graphics and no sound on you can too.

We like all the same things in a game as we do in a story. Create the narrative and make people want to get it.

Another thought is that maybe the price point that you are setting for your own distribution is just not compatible with Steam. I know you have stated that you need it there, but I think Steam sale stats would prove that starting at $20 and going from there might get you 4X the reach that you otherwise would if not more. Do what you want, but it's just a thought.

We are still supporting you in the FOFC Steam group, that's for sure.

[MizzouRah]

Just doesn't make sense to me.. but I don't know about the Steam process. Heck, Bill's football card game was greenlit.

[djsatu]

Originally Posted by dubb93

How did DDS: PB get in while completely skipping the Greenlight process? What did he do that you are not?

The game is unplayable and the demo was horrible for me anyways.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

I've had that kind of offer, but I can't make the numbers work if I want to remain full-time. Those companies ask a lot to bypass Greenlight, and the sales they suggested were possible weren't that much higher than what I already do.

My worry is that in turning down an offer (always politely), I've offended someone with solid connections at Valve.

Jim,

The beautiful part of America isn't that it's always easy to accomplish things, but that nothing is monopolized to the point where you can't find other ways.

Have you considered Amazon Digital?
https://developer.amazon.com/public/...atforms/mac-pc

[nicon22]

Dont give up, I'm sure it'll go up soon...Have you thought about GoG? If i had a 2nd place besides steam I dont mind supporting for digital games, its them.

Info:
http://www.gog.com/indie

[Solecismic]

Thanks for all your votes, kind comments, and support.

FOF7 has just been Greenlit.

I'll keep everyone up to date as to how I will make this happen.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

Thanks for all your votes, kind comments, and support.

FOF7 has just been Greenlit.

I'll keep everyone up to date as to how I will make this happen.

[nicon22]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

Thanks for all your votes, kind comments, and support.

FOF7 has just been Greenlit.

I'll keep everyone up to date as to how I will make this happen.

Gratz man, have my money ready as soon as its up to be able to buy.

[chinaski]

Congrats!

[A-Husker-4-Life]

Boom!! Congrats Jim, you've earned it. Now all we need is an update to TCY..

[DaddyTorgo]

Great news!

[corbes]

Wonderful, wonderful news

[JPhillips]

Congrats!

[Dutch]

Yeah! Thank goodness.