Beggs/Texas/Transgender Athletes

[Logan]

It's obviously not "fair". And I think many are okay with the spirit behind this, in that it seems right to allow everyone to participate in sports. The problem becomes when the participant rises to become a champion. Then it's an issue. I can promise you that if I was in high school today, and I chose to identify as a girl and attempted to make the girl's track team, I would be allowed to and then all those girls would promptly destroy my slow ass and I wouldn't make the team. That likely wouldn't cause much of a ruckus.

I have no idea how you fix this.

[tarcone]

Considering that this used to be called Gender Identity Disorder, I think the fix is whatever you were born is where you compete.
I laugh at the jokes about the 16 year old that identifies as a 21 year old and should be able to buy alcohol. Same concept.
Its not what you identify with, it is what you are.

Of course, there could be a separate division for Gender Identity Disorder athletes.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Considering that this used to be called Gender Identity Disorder, I think the fix is whatever you were born is where you compete.

In other words, apply common sense.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Considering that this used to be called Gender Identity Disorder, I think the fix is whatever you were born is where you compete.

That was exactly the problem in the Beggs case - the athlete wanted to compete in the male division, but wasn't allowed to.

I think it's tougher at mature ages, and post or mid-op, but this seems pretty cut and dry. Biologically male, hasn't started any treatments, you're competing in the male division.

Matter of fact, that'd probably be my basic standard - if there's doubt & it's a mid-op transitioning person, you compete in the harder (male) division.

[Ben E Lou]

Humpty bumpty.


Transgender female NCAA cross country runner in Montana named Conference Female Athlete Of The Week | Daily Mail Online

[Ben E Lou]

By the way, I had to use the Daily Mail link because it was the only one I could find that wasn't either...


a. completely ignoring the elephant in the room (i.e. didn't mention the transgender part of the story at all)



or


b. "ZOMFG BOY WHO THINKS HE IS A GIRL IS A DIRTY ROTTEN CHEATER AND THE NCAA SUPPORTS THIS. BURN ALL LIBTARDS!!!"

[miami_fan]

The Daily Mail being the beacon of rationality on a story is bizarre.

[tarcone]

I fel sorry for those athletes that work their ass off and get beat by an athlete that is naturally bigger, faster and stronger.

Why hasnt their been a transgender category established yet? That community wants equality and that is the only way to ensure it.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

The Daily Mail being the beacon of rationality on a story is bizarre.

Seriously.


It was one of the top few search results, but initially I skipped it because Daily Mail, but then as I started going through and seeing example after example of the two things above, I went back and checked the two I'd skipped: Daily Mail and The Blaze. Fwiw, The Blaze played it far more straight than any of the other conservative-leaning sites that posted the story. It was a near toss-up between it and Daily Mail as to which one I posted here. *shurg*


Transgender female runner wins NCAA conference's 'Women's Athlete of the Week' award - TheBlaze

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by tarcone

I fel sorry for those athletes that work their ass off and get beat by an athlete that is naturally bigger, faster and stronger.

Why hasnt their been a transgender category established yet? That community wants equality and that is the only way to ensure it.

Alright I'll bite.


What is the fair and equitable solution you seek? As in how will you decide?

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by tarcone

I fel sorry for those athletes that work their ass off and get beat by an athlete that is naturally bigger, faster and stronger.

Why hasnt their been a transgender category established yet? That community wants equality and that is the only way to ensure it.

On the other hand we're all genetically different. I'm 5'3 and quite disadvantaged at games like basketball. I can work my ass off but I can't overcome the height discrepancy.

Maybe someone should create a basketball league for short people.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Alright I'll bite.


What is the fair and equitable solution you seek? As in how will you decide?

Let them have their own division. That is equity. Have a mens, womens, and Other division.

Isnt that more equitable?

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

On the other hand we're all genetically different. I'm 5'3 and quite disadvantaged at games like basketball. I can work my ass off but I can't overcome the height discrepancy.

Maybe someone should create a basketball league for short people.

If you played football in the lingerie league, I bet you would kick ass as a running back. Is that fair?

Men are superior to women when it comes to strength and speed. Thats a fact.

Why is it fair that a boy who claims he is a woman dominate a sport?

It is rare to see a female beat male athletes.

[DanGarion]

There is so much more than claiming to be a woman... They typically have to have very specific levels of hormones. This actually came up in the amateur disc golf championships this year Laura Nagtegaal 2019 Amateur World Champion FA40 - Disc Golf Course Review

She actually showed up in the forum to discuss as well.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by tarcone

If you played football in the lingerie league, I bet you would kick ass as a running back.

I would look terrible in lingerie.

BTW it's the Legends Football League.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by tarcone

I fel sorry for those athletes that work their ass off and get beat by an athlete that is naturally bigger, faster and stronger.

Why hasnt their been a transgender category established yet? That community wants equality and that is the only way to ensure it.

I think there is an interesting debate to be had here. I also don't think this poor attempt at trolling is the way to get there. Shurg.

[Radii]

"NCAA policy allows male athletes who identify as transgender females to compete in women's competition after suppressing testosterone for a year"

Its in the top level summary of the article, just FYI. I guess sometimes it might just be ignorance, but nearly every sentence tarcone has written screams transphobic so its probably not worth engaging.

[Ben E Lou]

Don’t have time to find it right now, Radii, but there seemed to be credible medical research indicating that the previously-existing muscle is advantageous. Basically the idea is that if someone completes most of puberty as a male, they end up with a permanent advantage.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Don’t have time to find it right now, Radii, but there seemed to be credible medical research indicating that the previously-existing muscle is advantageous. Basically the idea is that if someone completes most of puberty as a male, they end up with a permanent advantage.

Yeah I read that as well, and I think that makes for an interesting discussion. To me though the discussion is about whether current rules are enough or not, but never that trans women should be barred from competing as women.

My reply above was more specifically in reply to how tarcone has chosen his words in this thread and what his words usually mean in any context to trans women.

[Warhammer]

Does anyone have numbers regarding the number of transgender athletes women to men, and men to women?

I am going to be much harder on men to women, simply because there is an inherent advantage making that transition. For female to male, because they are going to a tougher division, I am much more likely to let things slide a bit.

We know many athletes are going to try and get every advantage they can, PEDs, etc. If they are willing to do that, I do not put it past anyone to undergo an operation to be a big fish in a smaller pond.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

I am going to be much harder on men to women, simply because there is an inherent advantage making that transition. For female to male, because they are going to a tougher division, I am much more likely to let things slide a bit.

Transgender issues in professional combat sports is pretty interesting, though at least there the opponent is always willing. Nobody has to take a fight against someone for whatever reason - sometimes that comes up with PED use. Fallon Fox beating up women didn't feel right (especially when she fractured an opponent's skull), though, she wasn't very good and eventually got wiped out by a top-tier professional woman in her weight class.

But eventually there will be a higher-level transgender MMA athlete who dominates the female division and this debate will really get heated.

But even Fox fought a woman who was willing to fight her, knew exactly what she was signing up for, didn't come in with any particular bigotry or hate or anything, and then she said this after a fight where she ended up with a concussion and orbital bone fracture:

"I've fought a lot of women and have never felt the strength that I felt in a fight as I did that night. I can't answer whether it's because she was born a man or not because I'm not a doctor. I can only say, I've never felt so overpowered ever in my life and I am an abnormally strong female in my own right," she stated. "Her grip was different, I could usually move around in the clinch against other females but couldn't move at all in Fox's clinch..."

Fox ended up retiring after that fight.

[miami_fan]

School investigates whether athlete is transgender after state win - Deseret News

“We didn’t get to the parents or the student simply because if all of the questions about eligibility were answered by the school or the feeder system schools, there was no reason to make it a personal situation with a family or that athlete.”

So they conducted an investigation of the student's gender based on the accusations of others and did not the decency to tell the student and her parents? They don't think the investigation is a personal situation for the athlete and her family? But parents have the right to know what is going on with their children right? They did this to protect girls, just not that girl they investigated.

Reminds me of the famous quote from Joseph Welch during the McCarthy hearings. "Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?"

[Ksyrup]

This was another detail I read in a different article:

Spatafore said the association has looked into other complaints involving athletes who were suspected of being transgender in its efforts to comply with the Utah law, which went into effect in July. Some complaints include “when an athlete doesn’t look feminine enough”, he said. None of the complaints have been verified.