Pro Wrestling Discussion Thread **Spoilers Possible**

[duckman]

I think it was brilliant. The reaction by the crowd was priceless.

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by George W Bush

Big Show is the new ECW champ.

ECW is officially dead.

Thank goodness.

[jbmagic]

So RVD and Sabu is suspended for awhile now?

[Joe]

Originally Posted by jbmagic

So RVD and Sabu is suspended for awhile now?

probably at least suspended. Chris Masters has been suspended since late May for steroids, so probably it will be worse for them for the drugs + being arrested.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

Thank goodness.

unbelievable how snuffed out our expectations can bewhen it comes to VKM.

[Neuqua]

I tried. I really did, but I can't watch it.

[TazFTW]

Originally Posted by jbmagic

So RVD and Sabu is suspended for awhile now?

The WWE website has RVD being suspended for 30 days.

[Ryche]

Not sure where ECW goes from here. Who exactly do they put up against the Big Show with RVD and Sabu suspended and Kurt Angle out of action to let some injuries heal. The storyline could actually work well, but I don't know that they have the players needed.

At least CM Punk made his debut, even if it was only a quick vignette. Looks like they're not changing his persona, so he could move up pretty quickly.

[TazFTW]

Despite the result I thought the RVD/Big Show match wasn't half bad. I liked the powerbomb/chair shot spot and the crowd reaction to the ending was great.

Loved the "You take steroids" chant at Test and the "Marijuana" chant during the RVD match. Dang, smart marks...

[Neon_Chaos]

Looks like it's put up or shut-up time for the WWE Wellness program.

http://www.wwe.com/inside/news/22092481

13. DISCIPLINE FOR VIOLATION OF LAW
Any Talent who is arrested, convicted or who admits to a violation of law relating to use, possession, purchase, sale or distribution of prohibited drugs will be in material breach of contract and subject to immediate dismissal.

[Maple Leafs]

Well, "subject to" means the company has the option. It does not mean it's a mandatory result.

[duckman]

According to WWE.com, RVD has been suspended for 30 days (at least in the storyline).

[MikeVic]

I wonder what happens to Sabu? Considering he had a promo on last night's show... I don't think he'll get more than the same suspension RVD got.

I don't know about Big Show as ECW champ. Will he feud with Dreamer now over the title?

[Desmond]

Originally Posted by MikeVic

I don't know about Big Show as ECW champ. Will he feud with Dreamer now over the title?

Battle of the backfat?

[Guelph Spartan]

I am desperately trying to remain positive about this whole situation so here are few thoughts...

1) This could actually be a good thing... wrestling almost always works better with a heel champion with a face chasing the title. So if they can turn this into RVD chasing the title back (which really never happened considering he was given the ECW belt) it could end up being a very strong program. Big Show represents everything ECW should not be, and at the same time, is exactly what Vince's ECW has become. It all depends on Dreamer and Big Show keeping the fire hot for the next 30 days.

2) The debut of CM Punk could not have come at a more perfect time considering his “straight edge” lifestyle/gimmick. Would have liked him to have a little more time to get that across, but hopefully this will come next week.

3) OK, so there isn’t a third good point, this sux

[Desmond]

Heres the deal, old ECW fans could give a shit about the product at this point. WWE fans could give a shit about the product at this point. See where the problem lies? Outside of CM Punk I have zero need to watch this show ever again so i'll just take to downloading it and skipping to his segment.

[duckman]

Here are the punishments regarding RVD and Sabu:

hxxp://www.wwe.com/inside/news/rvdsabucharges

WWE announced today that based on information gathered over the past few days, Van Dam has been suspended without pay for 30 days and Sabu has been fined $1000.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Just an odd curiosity that's crossed my mind a few times over the years -- how exactly is Terry Brunk "fined" X amount by the WWE?

I mean, is being subject to "fines" for guys who are ultimately just contract employees of a corporation something that is spelled out contractually or in a case like this is it merely a euphemism for "we're docking your pay by X amount".

edit to attempt to clarify what I mean -- Usually wrestlers are "fined" in the context of kayfabe but in this case (and a couple of recent TNA mentions in the dirt sheets), the word is being used in the same manner that an organization like MLB or the NFL levies a fine as a penalty. In those cases, I assume that it's something spelled out as a possibility in the collective bargaining process, or in the case of NASCAR it'd be a disciplinary process spelled out as part of the membership agreement ... but pro wrestling really has neither of those things, so I'm wondering how these types of fines are actually handled.

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by duckman

Here are the punishments regarding RVD and Sabu:

hxxp://www.wwe.com/inside/news/rvdsabucharges

Only a $1000 fine for Sabu? I thought he was charged with the more serious offense? No suspension at all is a joke.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Meanwhile, back in the Impact Zone ... Samoa Joe channels both Mike Tyson & Taz to cut a promo for Victory Road

Meanwhile, Rhino's taped promo really was what Don West said: the most passionate thing we've ever heard from him.

Y'know, between Rhino & Joe and the recent body of work from Christian, I believe TNA is fully one step closer to being able to transition away from using the older workers to provide personality. Of course, on the other end of the spectrum there's Monty Brown, a man who should be kept as far away from a microphone as possible. If anything, I think he may be regressing ... and that's a scary thought.

Meanwhile, somebody ought to have Andy Douglas checked for brain damage.
If the dirt sheets are accurate & he's risked both the planned push and perhaps even his job because he didn't want to get his hair cut for the angle, he's gotta be nuts.

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Of course, on the other end of the spectrum there's Monty Brown, a man who should be kept as far away from a microphone as possible. If anything, I think he may be regressing ... and that's a scary thought.

Truer words have never been spoken - egads he's awful.

[Guelph Spartan]

Y'know, between Rhino & Joe and the recent body of work from Christian, I believe TNA is fully one step closer to being able to transition away from using the older workers to provide personality

I could not agree more... the thing that has really held TNA back (aside from the juvenile name, why don't they just call it NWA?), has been it's reliance on Jarrett in the main event spot. But something tells me that's not going to change anytime soon.

[Ryche]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

Truer words have never been spoken - egads he's awful.

And the Pounce is just flat out awful. If he hits it perfectly it looks ok. More often it looks like he jumps in his opponent's general direction and they fall like a soccer player.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Just an odd curiosity that's crossed my mind a few times over the years -- how exactly is Terry Brunk "fined" X amount by the WWE?

I mean, is being subject to "fines" for guys who are ultimately just contract employees of a corporation something that is spelled out contractually or in a case like this is it merely a euphemism for "we're docking your pay by X amount".

edit to attempt to clarify what I mean -- Usually wrestlers are "fined" in the context of kayfabe but in this case (and a couple of recent TNA mentions in the dirt sheets), the word is being used in the same manner that an organization like MLB or the NFL levies a fine as a penalty. In those cases, I assume that it's something spelled out as a possibility in the collective bargaining process, or in the case of NASCAR it'd be a disciplinary process spelled out as part of the membership agreement ... but pro wrestling really has neither of those things, so I'm wondering how these types of fines are actually handled.

Me, too. MLB, NFL, etc. have a collective bargaining agreement where the process for fines is created. And, I am sure, the fines all end up going to some third party charity that is neither the league or the union.

Here, does WWE just keep the money? I guess that it does not really matter in the end since they have the right to fire him and I am sure that he'd just rather give up the cash.

But it would be really strange for me to show up for work on Monday and have my boss say, "We caught you stealing paperclips from the supply closet last week, so we are going to pay you $1,000 less this month."

Fines are just weird outside of the organized sports context.

[molson]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Just an odd curiosity that's crossed my mind a few times over the years -- how exactly is Terry Brunk "fined" X amount by the WWE?

I mean, is being subject to "fines" for guys who are ultimately just contract employees of a corporation something that is spelled out contractually or in a case like this is it merely a euphemism for "we're docking your pay by X amount".

It's another example of the many benefits the WWE gets from making sure that the talent are legally considered "independent contractors" rather than "employees".

I'm sure the WWE's lawyers work to maintain this distinction, but it sure does seem teneous, considering that the talent isn't allowed to work in a wrestling capacity for anyone else, and the WWE controls every aspect of how the talent does their job.

[Guelph Spartan]

Not to get too lawyer on you all but, it would be next to impossible for Vince to maintain his roster as independent contractors.

Taken from the IRS website:

Who is an Independent Contractor?
A general rule is that you, the payer, have the right to control or direct only the result of the work done by an independent contractor, and not the means and methods of accomplishing the result

Which leads to the argument that since Vince/Pat Patterson/whoever lays out the match, then they are exhibiting control over their work. What happens when a workers such as Flair, who likes to call it in the ring, is probably not a situation that the IRS intended on deciding.

Further,

To determine whether an individual is an employee or independent contractor under the common law, the relationship of the worker and the business must be examined. All evidence of control and independence must be considered. In an employee-independent contractor determination, all information that provides evidence of the degree of control and degree of independence must be considered.

The bottom line is this: Vince controls what matches they will have, what public appearances they will have, what TV show they will appear on, how much TV time they will get, and most importantly; the ultimate winner of their match. If the key in determining independent contractor/employee is control, there is no doubt that Vince has the control.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Guelph Spartan

Not to get too lawyer on you all but, it would be next to impossible for Vince to maintain his roster as independent contractors.

I absolutely agree, which is why I'm so puzzled that the distinction has apparently survived in the business.

Of course, wrestlers aren't likely to challenge the WWE legally, for fear of being blacklisted

[Guelph Spartan]

You are completely right... the key word is "blacklisted".

It's the same reason that there are no wrestling unions... nobody will dare stand up to Vince. Especially now that he is the only show in town (TNA isn't a truly viable option yet).

[Toddzilla]

Getting back to TNA potentially using older wreslters primarily to give the younger guys a rub...that is why I really like them signing Scott Steiner. He may be awful in the ring - not as bad as most old guys - but he's always been willing to put a younger guy over in the ring. He did it in WCW a ton in the last months of the company, and he'll probably be a good company guy for TNA. Hell, he did the job for Joe, didn't he?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

and he'll probably be a good company guy for TNA. Hell, he did the job for Joe, didn't he?

He's a guy that I was truly & genuinely disgusted by seeing get a contract at all but I can't disagree one bit that, to this point at least, has performed not only a valuable role but performed it well in the process.

I still don't trust him not to cause problems outside the ring, heck I still don't trust TNA not to screw this up & decide to start putting the guy over, but I can't argue with the usage or the results so far.

Which brings me to continued concerns about whether the Nash/Sabin angle will get screwed up when all is said & done. The upcoming tag match is obviously feud filler and is meant to extend the storyline another month. It's not exciting but at least I understand the purpose of it. But the payoff needs to come in August, and nothing other than a clean pin by Sabin is an acceptable outcome. But the phrase "creative control" worries me greatly, especially when Nash is involved.

edit to add -- You also brought up a good general point about the use of the overall use of veterans to provide a rub. I think it's been interesting to watch how Sting has actually provided that for Christian through an angle, rather than by losing. Not unheard of, but not the most common way of doing it either. I think that's roughly the same thing that was underway with Shane Douglas & The Naturals, albeit to a far lesser degree.

A bigger topic for another time perhaps, but it might be interesting to go back sometime & look at various stars to see how much "the rub" affected their careers versus those who never got one but got over in spite of that. That notion came to mind as I was thinking about some guys who are over but haven't gone that route to get there, Styles particularly came to mind as someone who got over on their own skill set more than anything else.

[DeToxRox]

TNA signed Homicide.

About f'ing time.

Now they need to use the guy.

[saldana]

this weeks raw blows....over an hour into the show, and there has only been one match plus a diva match....and dx hasnt even shown up yet.

[saldana]

dola, and who exactly are they trying to entice to watch ECW tomorrow by setting up a Big Show vs. Ric Flair title match.....that is destined to be shitty.

[MikeVic]

I couldn't watch all of RAW. Not because I didn't set aside the time, but because it sucked. Since when can another brand's wrestlers just show up on the other brands? I ignored it for a bit, but hate it now. These are supposed to be three separate "brands," yet with ECW recaps on RAW and Smackdown and Heyman and Big Show showing up on RAW freely... this is stupid.

[Terps]

I hate all the brand extensions. I haven't watched Smackdown since it became it's own brand. ECW may as well be considered another extension, named WWECW. Vince should rename Smackdown to WCW.

If that's not bad enough, rumors are that Vince wants to add two more brand extensions in the next couple of years. Ugh.

[saldana]

i barely finished watching it last night....possibly the worst episode of raw ever....i didnt even tivo the disaster that is sure to be ecw for tonight...it would hurt too much

[Joe]

Big Show vs. Ric Flair. Just like the good old days in ECW

[saldana]

Originally Posted by George W Bush

Big Show vs. Ric Flair. Just like the good old days in ECW

yeah, 10 years ago before flair was collecting social security!!! there is absolutley no spot those two can run tonight or angle they can play that will not suck

[DeToxRox]

I am watching ECW tonight to see CM Punk. He's my only reason for watching.

[DeToxRox]

Dola - no garunteers he even debuts in the ring tonight.

[JonInMiddleGA]

As bad as this WWECW trainwreck is, there could be at least some trivial value in having Flair pull off the upset tonight, as it would make him the only person to have won World Titles in the NWA, WCW, WWF/E, and ECW.

Odd bit of wrestling trivia for you: prior to RVD & Big Slow accomplishing the feat in the new (mockery of) ECW, there were two previous wrestlers that had won both an ECW World Title and another recognized World Title (as acknowledged by PWI)

Can you name them (without looking it up)?

For the record, one of them I would have gotten but the other had slipped my mind.

[TazFTW]

Snuka and Shane Douglas?

[saldana]

eddie guerrero and chris benoit? (never watched a ton of ecw, so i dont know if they ever had the belt)

[molson]

Terry Funk would be one. No idea about the other - Neither Benoit nor guerrero were ECW champs.

[molson]

Dola - would Raven count? (TNA and ECW)

[WVUFAN]

Originally Posted by saldana

eddie guerrero and chris benoit? (never watched a ton of ecw, so i dont know if they ever had the belt)

TazFTW is right -- Snuka was the first ECW Champion, and Shane Douglas is a former NWA Champion.

[JonInMiddleGA]

TazFTW -- Nope. Snuka never won any other top title despite challenging for them on numerious occasions and Douglas isn't counted because the ECW WHT was not "recognized" as a World Title until after the show debuted on TNN in 1999.

saldana -- Nope. Neither of those two great young lions ever won the top title in ECW.

[Maple Leafs]

Steve Corino and Rhino have been TNA/NWA champs.

[JonInMiddleGA]

molson - Funk misses the same way Snuka & Douglas missed, the "recognition" stipulation I mentioned. Ditto Raven.

That's actually an even bigger "catch" to the question than I first realized (as I had forgotten that Funk would also qualify).

By my own reckoning (as opposed to PWI's), I would have counted Douglas' second reign (the night he threw down the NWA title marking the starting point & not truly a double) as the first, then Funk in April '97, and Raven's ECW reign in early '96 becoming eligible as the third when he won the NWA title in June of '06.

But none of those are the two I was referring to.

[JonInMiddleGA]

And MapleLeafs gets the answers I was looking for. Rhino was obvious to me but Corino's 2 month run in ECW was what I initially forgot about.

Another odd thing about Corino's reigns was that he lost both belts in 3-way dances -- ECW's to Sandman & Justin Credible and the NWA to Shinya Hashimoto & Gary Steele. Maybe not unique, but it seems unusual to lose two world titles that way.